![d7d6de91fd01933c5a63969b05f784be[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/PLGAE7B.jpg "d7d6de91fd01933c5a63969b05f784be[1].jpg")
Monks have gap-closing land mobility, up to and including teleportation and etherealness, and reasonably decent jumping and falling ability to simulate aerial mobility.
They have no low save, a bonus to resisting enchantments, illusions and other Will trickery, and improved evasion.
They have astounding touch AC.
They have spell resistance.
They have immunity to diseases, poisons, and aging effects, so no easy sidestepping the issue with other caster shenanigans that don't involve SR, touch AC or Saves.
They can't be disarmed, and they have no equipment to use Shocking/Rusting Grasp or Heat/Chill Metal shenanigans on.
They attack multiple times, and hit with large damage dice when they do, to sidestep the problems of percent miss chance effects like Blur.
They bypass most DR.
They have an instant kill tied directly to casters typical weak save.
They get Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, so as to always have AoOs at the ready in case someone next to them tries to cast or flee.
And for their capstone, they stop counting as a humanoid target or spell effects altogether, instead counting as an outsider, and gain DR/10.
They are clearly, clearly designed to be mage killers. Almost as directly magic untouchable as the Tarrasque, with answers to many indirect methods as well like force cages, and particularly difficult to escape from while still remaining a threat (your best option is to fly past his rather significant jump range, but by then not even your close spells can reach.). By all rights they should be the perfect storm for such a role. Heck, it hardly makes sense to look at the class outside of the role, what Wuxia movie has fighters stepping
So why do they suck so bad at their job? What went wrong? Were the numbers just not high enough or are their pieces missing from its toolkit?
>>46488550
Mainly MAD.
They just rely on too many different stats with too few early level strengths.
>>46488591
4e and 5e made their unarmed finessed, with dex to damage to boot.
If we just gave the 3.P version that, maybe Agile Manuevers as a bonus feat as well considering it needs strength for that too, would trimming Strength out of the mix fix the MAD enough for it to be viable again, or would it still be ineffectual? It would at least be on par with paladin MAD-wise, at two physicals and a mental.
>>46488697
Isn't there also some conflict between all that mobility and needing to stand still to flurry of blows?
>>46488550
I like playing monks. I'm generally savvy enough to avoid getting killed before I can start to power creep, and good party synergy lets me make up for any stats I may be falling behind in.
And you don't really need strength, don't make it a dump stat, but strength shouldn't be what you focus on having really high, what you really want is WIS and DEX. If you have really high WIS and DEX you'll be relatively fine. Hell, you'll probably want more CON than STR despite being mostly difficult to actually hit.
>>46488591
This, also monks generally are a hack of all trades, master of none kind of deal. Unlike a class that relies on 1 or 2 stats like a caster, rogue or fighter your ultimately out classed late game
>>46488786
If the mobility is for gap-closing to geek the mage, instead of running around delivering a single punch to every combatant like a ninny, then not really.
>>46488831
I mean, bards are all-tradey, face rogues are all-tradey, but they don't have problems doing their jobs.
>>46488786
>>46488855
You still can't flurry if you need to gap close though. Which is a problem for all 3.5 martials, but because monks get more attacks in their full attack, it seems like a worse deficit.
That said, PF Unchained Monks have flying kick, which lets you add a movement effect on one of your punches, which can work like a shortrange pounce.
>>46488943
Their typically support roles and even then any buffs you give to a group are generally well received and welcome in the boards case and rogues only need to hang out in the back and hide/attack/hide
>>46488550
Because high-level wizards can plan around them anyway. A wizard simply has more resources to access than the monk, which allows them to compensate for any physical flaws they would otherwise have.
>>46488550
>So why do they suck so bad at their job? What went wrong? Were the numbers just not high enough or are their pieces missing from its toolkit?
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/13/optimizing-a-dd-3-5-monk
read the first and second answers here
Relatively squishy for a class that is supposed to be a frontline fighter.
Probably the class that is hit the worst by action economy issues. They are a class that is specialized into hitting a bunch of times, they can't do that if they are actually using their mobility. Every other class can charge as a gap closer, and probably do more damage to boot.
They are a melee class that can't two-handed their weapon, this just makes them worse at their job than pretty much every melee class from a damage perspective.
Things like poison and disease immunity are basically wasted class feature slots. I have been poisoned or diseased in a game exactly no times in 15+ years of games. DMs basically never use either of these.
Can't enchant your fists. Process of getting loot in general sucks as a monk, because there is really very little you can get that you will be able to make use of unless your GM goes digging for monk appropriate items. Be prepared to sit most loot-handing-outs out.
Role-playing a monk, is frankly, very little fun unless the campaign is some kung fu movie inspired setting.
>>46488550
So they're a reinforced glass cannon. What's new?
They still lack basic shit like a high BAB and solid HD.
If you want to play a good monk, just play an unarmed barbarian.
>>46488550
You have wrongfully interpreted their design like many people do.
Monks are not an offensive class, they are not martials, they are not "mage-killers", they're the closest thing in the game to a tank.
A "mobile dwarven defender", except that instead of AC and DR you have a shit ton of movement speed, slowfall, spell resistance, all good saves, self-healing, etc.
They can straight up run through a dungeon and set off all kinds of traps and shit and be fine, stun anyone who threatens their allies with those AoOs, flurry when some dps is needed, and punch through just about any door/chest/creature if necessary.
They are not magically "untouchable" like the Tarrasque at all, they need magic and treasure just as much as any other class in the game.
Spell Resistance and High saves don't really compare to a Spell Carapace at all.
They suck at their job because almost no one builds them to do it. I rarely see Monks played intelligently enough to skirmish and lock-down key opponents with stuns/grapples, as opposed to trying their hardest to replicate the fighter and flurry everything.
>>46488550
To be fair, I think they rely too !much on their Prowess.
>>46488550
Because they have no way of actually HURTING anything! Any mage of sufficient level is effectively immune to physical damage, and a Monk does SHIT damage to begin with.
>>46488550
>So why do they suck so bad at their job? What went wrong?
In AD&D1e, Monks were one of those classes where you needed to dual-class several times before entry. They were effectively restricted to high level characters, which meant abilities like low AC without armor and absurdly high damage dice to attacks were fine.
What went wrong in D&D3e is that the designers tried to tone the Monk down to fit "1st level" characters while not fully understanding their own system. In AD&D1e, characters were sharply limited on attacks and added +5 to the damage roll from stats at best. In D&D3e, strength bonuses accounted for the majority of damage and most characters could gain 4-5 attacks each round without difficulty. Plus, they didn't account for what 3/4 BAB along with no weapon enhancements would do for a frontline combatant.
Other aspects of the Monk design, such as the weak AC at low levels, were accounted for in AD&D design but not even recognized in D&D3e.
>What needs to be done?
The easiest solution is just giving them Ki Strike +1 and up, enhancing their unarmed attacks (and attacks with monk weapons) along the progression that everyone else gets.
Other issues involve MAD (consolidate stats required), being unable to wear beneficial armor enhancements (something like prayer beads having non-numbered armor enhancements), mid-range HP and mid-range BAB for a frontline fighter, and most abilities just being nerfed in the AD&D->D&D3e conversion.
>>46488550
Mages can fly, monks can't. There's no way a monk is getting close to a competently-played mage of third level or higher.
>>46489484
>martial character that requires requires INA and Large race just to be decent
Yeah, a barbarian is gonna benefit from that too.
>>46489853
Monks can charge you know. I've done it all the time. Also, Dragon style is basically two-handing your weapon, with twice your strength on your first punch, charging through allies, and a fus-ro-dah, as well as lets you take Elemental Fist as if a Monk of the 4 Winds for added like 3d6s level number of times per day.
Can't enchant your fists, but you can enchant brash knuckles and gauntlets, both of which monks keep their damage dice with. And honestly, what kind of thug/highwayman isn't going to have a pair of brass knuckles?
And as OP stated, their Kit isn't really meant to be front line. Its meant to get past the enemy front line and hassle their casters. You can literally jump higher than a fighter's AoO reach. You fast movement charge right over their head and come down with a punch to the face for the dork in the dress, who now can't cast without triggering additional punching that will make him drop his spell.
He can't do anything while next to you, but he can't leave without forfeiting his action. He can't outrun you, but he can't stay put without taking AoOs and Flurries. He's either having his shins kicked in directly or being chased around in circles unable to effect the battle until his beatsticks die from lack of caster support, at which point he's defenseless and outnumbered.
>>46490215
>they're the closest thing in the game to a tank
with d8 hitdie and 14 AC? top kek.
what they resist is casting.
>>46491386
jump distance is based on movement speed, jump (which they can get +20 to for a single ki point), and whether you have a running start (which monks count as always having).
All together, it can end up being like, 40 ft if their really trying and the rolls are good.
If you're close enough to be shooting close-range spells, which is where the most dangerous stuff are, you're close enough to be mid-air grappled.
>>46488550
>Monks have gap-closing land mobility, up to and including teleportation and etherealness, and reasonably decent jumping and falling ability to simulate aerial mobility.
Characters of the same level either have better options, or can use them more often.
>They have no low save, a bonus to resisting enchantments, illusions and other Will trickery, and improved evasion.
>They have astounding touch AC.
Admittedly good things, although evasion ain't worth shit.
>They have spell resistance.
Actually a negative, as it can mess up their allies buff/heal spells, while offensive spells are usually are of sufficient level and power to bypass it.
>They have immunity to diseases, poisons, and aging effects, so no easy sidestepping the issue with other caster shenanigans that don't involve SR, touch AC or Saves.
>They can't be disarmed, and they have no equipment to use Shocking/Rusting Grasp or Heat/Chill Metal shenanigans on.
Oh jolly, that eliminates almost 5% of spells!
>They attack multiple times, and hit with large damage dice when they do, to sidestep the problems of percent miss chance effects like Blur.
Too bad to do that you need to 1. stand in place for a full turn, and 2, actually hit with your attacks. Also, everyone with TWF can do that. The larger damage dice is also nowhere near as important (and doesn't scale nowhere near as well) as weapon properrties or being able to two hand your weapon for 1.5xSTR bonus to damage.
>They bypass most DR.
Only with their fists, which as mentioned, are less than stellar weapons even with scaling.
>They have an instant kill tied directly to casters typical weak save.
The caster needs to make that save after the monk hit him with an attack, which the Monk actually isn't likely. The save DC is also pathetic, even targeting a weak save.
>They get Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, so as to always have AoOs at the ready in case someone next to them tries to cast or flee.
5 foot step.
>cont
>>46491786
So other than mobility, your thoughts is that its mostly a numbers problem then?
Raise the SR to 15+Level, give it some bonuses to hit, make the damage dice scale even larger (or heck, its a natural attack, and the only one the creature has. isn't that supposed to get 1.5 str anyways?)
>>46491786
>>46488550
>And for their capstone, they stop counting as a humanoid target or spell effects altogether, instead counting as an outsider, and gain DR/10.
Great, now they can't even get enlarge person and a number of other useful buff spells on themselves, but gain a bunch of new weaknesses outsiders get that a savvy wizard can exploit.
>They are clearly, clearly designed to be mage killers.
Possibly.
>Almost as directly magic untouchable as the Tarrasque,
And even the Tarrasque gets fucked by magic.
>with answers to many indirect methods as well like force cages,
and particularly difficult to escape from while still remaining a threat (your best option is to fly past his rather significant jump range, but by then not even your close spells can reach.).
For the record, I'm pretty sure if the monk jumps he can only make a single attack (and even that is generous, I'm not even sure "attack while jumping" is an action allowed by the rules by RAW; seems like it would be akin to a spring attack instead), won't be around to make AoOs if the caster casts spells which means all that happens is he deals a piddly amount of damage if he hits.
> By all rights they should be the perfect storm for such a role. Heck, it hardly makes sense to look at the class outside of the role, what Wuxia movie has fighters stepping
???
>So why do they suck so bad at their job? What went wrong? Were the numbers just not high enough or are their pieces missing from its toolkit?
MAD, abilities scaling too slow, abilities not having synergy, just plain forgetting that magic does everything a monk does but better.
>>46491967
if he hits the caster while he's flying, it likely breaks concentration, no?
He could also just try to grapple, for a 30ft suplex.
>>46488855
>close the gap
>attack once
>no way to kill mage in one hit even if he has no special defenses from average hp alone
>mage teleports away
>>46491967
>magic does everything a monk does but better
fine, but that's true for literally anything not a caster in 3.5
So is the problem that this magekiller was designed as a non-mage, in the edition where mages just rule everything?
>>46491964
It's the problem of magic being retarded in 3.PF.
No amount of numbers is going to let you catch up to the guy who can just teleport the fuck away to his demiplane when shit hits the fan, if you are even fighting him and not an astral projection or clone or whatever...
Handing out actual mage killing abilities like the Tetori monk grapple (except not scaling so slow again), being actually able to see through illusions and counter magical defenses, and yes, even just having a higher chance to hit would help a lot... but it'd be still a very single minded class.
>>46492062
>mage teleports away
>mage no longer a threat to monk or party
>the enemy has fled
>Victory For Zim
>>46488943
Magic is so good that having up to level 6 magic is powerful enough that they are elevated to good class automatically.
>>46492064
>but it'd be still a very single minded class
So are Fighters.
>>46492015
Mixing up editions here. I was talking about 3.PF monk. In 5e, yes, he'd probably break concentration, but I don't think the monk can jump that high in 5e (and the caster can also move before and after his spell, so keep that in mind when thinking about spell ranges). 5e casters also can't layer defenses as well, so that also helps.
But then, you could have just gave the fighter a bow...
>>46492077
>mage comes back invisible and fucks the entire party in the worst possible time
I used "teleports away" as a shorthand for "you can't do shit to him anymore".
In terms of overall class effectiveness for post-3.X D&D editions:
4e Iron Soul monk > 4e Centered Breath and Desert Wind monks > 4e Eternal Tide and Stone Fist monks > 3.5 monk with unarmed damage size stacking > Path of War monk of the Silver Fist > 13th Age monk > 5e monk > Pathfinder monk unchained > regular Pathfinder monk > regular 3.5 monk
Is this accurate?
>>46492093
And they are also shit.
Notice a pattern?
TBF if you gave the monk good abilities, or a pool of abilities at least, it could probably be easily upper T4/T3 like the PF spell sundering barbarian is.
>>46491629
>who now can't cast without triggering additional punching that will make him drop his spell.
nigga
5ft step
did you forget that exists?
Also you can make a concentration check to cast without provoking AoO if for some reason you don't want to take a 5ft step (which can be taken even if you are making a full round action)
Just because you got close to a mage doesn't mean he's dead. You have to kill him before his turn starts, otherwise he just 5ft steps and fucks your party over. I want to see your party win the melee with the enemy front line with your fighter asleep, held or dominated.
I really wish people would bother reading the rules before they started posting.
>>46488591
>Mainly MAD.
This.
I played a monk in a game where we did 5d6 discard lowest 2 and add +1d4 to each stat and ended up with at least 15 in every stat with some at 20 or more.
he kicked ass.
>>46491639
>14 AC
maybe stop playing 5e where the highest armor class is like 22
>>46492370
Actually, starting Monk AC is similar in both editions, since it's just DEX+WIS+10.
>like 22
Unless you are a bladesinger, cause then it's 23+shield for 27. Ask the cleric for a shield of faith and I'm not sure if anything can even touch you more than 10% of the time.
>>46492608
the point of 5e is to not let anyone become untouchable like that (which is retarded) so i can't imagine why any DM wouldn't just ban bladesinger or shield of faith or just flat out cap AC at 25 regardless of what you do.
maybe if the DM is an idiot he would allow such things but the entire intent of that edition is to prevent 70AC and unchecked magic users in 3.5.
>>46492649
Well, you'd have to be level 16 (to have 20 INT and DEX), and you need to burn spells for Shield constantly when anything actually hits you, so it's not like you can keep it up long most of the time.
>>46492693
>and you need to burn spells for Shield constantly
jesus christ i didn't know 5e was this fucking bad.
Shield wasn't even an overpowered spell. what the fuck? why did they ruin it? Abjurant Champion upset people that much?
>>46492785
It's a free "Actually, I didn't get hit" whenever you use it. Just having it prepared is huge. I have not had a combat where I had to use it more than once; which is essentially the same as the previous versions of shield, but instead of pre-buffing with it, I just have to have it prepared (and in 5e you don't even need to prepare multiples).
>>46492785
+5 AC for a 1st level spell slot, in a system where AC in anything sane caps at 20, is definitely fine to make it only last 1 round.
The wizard gets to pretend he's in+3 fullplate til next turn.
It's basically a "nuh-uh you miss" until end of turn, triggerable as an immediate action, for a 1st level spell slot. It's fine.
Also, this way you ca't stack it with mage armor for quasi-permanent +8. they now have completely seperate functions, one that lasts for hours but is weaker, one that lasts for moments but is very strong.
>>46492785
do you even know how this edition plays or are you just a 3aboo looking to complain that numbers are smaller?
>>46492864
>>46492917
>It's a free "Actually, I didn't get hit" whenever you use it.
yeah they just took this and replaced it with Shield.
anything to keep AC down so CR1 goblins can still hit level 20 characters.
>>46492943
actually they just copied how shield worked in D&D4e
except in 4e it only gave +4 to AC
it was still "ACTCHUALLY you don't hit me" even then.
Not sure why they buffed it when the numbers are smaller.
BTW am I the only one who liked bigger numbers? I don't like the idea of being a level 20 and having a kobold still able to hit me, nor do I like that a level 1 fighter can still hit a dragon.
D&D has always been about going from humble beginnings to demigod. I mean D&D basic (becmi) had 36 levels! And you could actually become an immortal as the next step.
>>46492943
Buddy. Pal. Frienderino.
You are making a fool of yourself.
>>46493002
>BTW am I the only one who liked bigger numbers? I don't like the idea of being a level 20 and having a kobold still able to hit me, nor do I like that a level 1 fighter can still hit a dragon.
Show me a single fantasy novel where low-level mooks stop being relevant just because the PCs are at the end of the novel.
D&D 5e emulates fantasy fiction, not powerlevel wanking anime.
>>46493002
Its so they don't have to have multiple layers of the same monster but colored different with slightly better numbers be a thing.
It went from WoW to Tucker's Kobolds. It's fine.
>>46493002
It's not like it's a huge deal and it's nice to be able to have hoards of weaker enemies still be a reasonable threat instead of irrelevant.
>>46492113
the size-stacking 3.5 monk is probably a little high up on the list
>>46493002
>BTW am I the only one who liked bigger numbers?
No. I liked bigger numbers too and I think a level 20 character getting hit or being threatened even by 100 kobolds is retarded.
>Show me a single fantasy novel where low-level mooks stop being relevant just because the PCs are at the end of the novel.
basically any of them. even lord of the rings had "powerlevel anime wanking."
>>46493032
>Show me a single fantasy novel where low-level mooks stop being relevant just because the PCs are at the end of the novel.
"guy who was a challenge and now I can just kinda laugh it off" happens a lot in Hero's journey type stories.
>D&D 5e emulates fantasy fiction, not powerlevel wanking anime.
Baiting or serious? In the latter case, I need to find my "let me laugh harder" image.
![aViKZB7[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/lbo30gi.jpg "aViKZB7[1].jpg")
>>46493036
Oops forgot my picture.
>>46493076
You can still laugh off the goblin.
You just have an even match when met with 40 of them.
>>46493069
>>46493076
Kobolds are hardly a threat at level 20 just because they can hit you.
>>46493036
>>46493039
>>46493032
I didn't say it was a terrible thing or that it makes me hate 5e or anything like that guys, I was asking if someone else liked big numbers
Did I accidentally step into a big trolling point or something?
Also lol at that "anime" thing. You realize D&D has always had powerfantasy wanking right? Mystara had alphatia, a nation with 1000 level 36 wizards as their ruling council. The path to immortality was a fucking plot point and the entire reason the principalities of glantry existed in that same setting.
There was a (terrible) series of immortal level adventures.
BTW for you guys who have never heard of mystara/known world, that was the default setting of D&D becmi, way back in the 1980s.
>>46493100
>You just have an even match when met with 40 of them.
Depends on the level/character.
>>46493122
In other words, they stop being relevant.
And no matter how hard 5e is trying to pretend they don't, they absolutely do, after a certain level, especially if the player characters out gear them.
>>46493141
>Did I accidentally step into a big trolling point or something?
yes. liking big numbers or liking wizards to actually be able to do something other than cast a spell and stand there concentrating or liking your level 20 paladin to not be able to be touched by level 1 enemies regardless of how many there are means you're a "3aboo."
>>46488550
In Pathfinder, magic weapons are basically a gear check. Because you're assumed to have +2 sword, all the monsters have +2 ac and +10 hp. You -need- them, and there's nothing you can do about it. Monks are forced to buy an Amulet of Mighty Fists which does the same thing for an outrageous price:
The monk buys an Amulet of Mighty Fists +X, and gets a +X to attack and damage.
The weapon and shield warrior buys a magic weapon, magic armor, magic shield, and cloak of resistance all of +X -- all for the same cost. He gets a +X bonus to attack, damage, saves, and a +2X bonus to AC.
The two-handed warrior buys a magic weapon, magic armor, and amulet of natural armor all of +X. He gets a +X bonus to attack and damage, and a +2X bonus to AC.
The two weapon warrior gets assfucked by the system almost as hard, but he's at least able to purchase +X magic armor with his 2 +X magic weapons.
It's just totally unjustifiable, and totally crippling. It takes what -should- be a strength, that monks don't need to rely on weapons and armor, and turns it into a huge weakness.
>>46493162
It just makes it easier for enemies that are closer in level to not be irrelevant, so a group of say level 10 mooks might still pose a threat to a level 20 rather than level 1's.
>>46488550
This is really all you need to know:
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Spider-Monk_(5e_Class)#Spider_Origin
He may not be the strongest in the party, but throw in a few zippy one liners and maybe a nice fridge stuffer in your backstory and you'll have a jolly good time thrashing baddies.
>>46493077
Confronted by Crabs!
Set Upon by Shellfish!
Beaten by Bottomfeeders!
Comdemned by Crustaceans!
Harassed by Hermits!
>>46493194
But in practice, it means that a few dozen of those CR 1/2 "scout" mooks are going to be completely lethal to a level 20 fighter.
That level 20 fighter in 3.PF would run roughshod over all of them.
>>46493141
Nah, you are fine, I also think 5e doesn't scale enough. In combat it's not that much of a problem, but skills stay way too mundane for my taste. This guy however >>46493174 is either a bad troll or just plain retarded.
>>46490215
> says monks are supposed to be tanks
> ignore the fact that monks have zero ways of drawing aggro
>>46493032
>Show me a single fantasy novel
>FANTASY NOVEL
>NOVEL
RPGS are games, not novels. D&D is an ofshoot of a miniatures wargame that added some character progression and focused on dungeon crawling.
This whole anti-game elitism that plagues /tg/ is really baffling.
>>46493206
Actually, lvl 20 fighter (battle master) would action surge and take out 8 of them in the first turn most likely. Then take out the rest in the second turn.
Still, you got a point. Fighters still scale linearly. Which in itself is not a problem imo, it only bothers me because casters still get to fuck reality.
>>46493191
or just buy enchanted brass knuckles or just have a non-retard GM and allow your monk to have his fists enchanted.
>>46493206
Not really, as the fighter is still going to have more HP than those scouts can deal with and is going to kill them all in short order. 5E just treats AC like a percentage reduction in damage.
>>46493162
In 5e using small CRs is all about numbers.
there's no more DR really anymore, so they're always going to at least do some damage.
And with bounded accuracy, since ACs don't really go up, except for dex-based characters, they're still hitting about as often. So the only added protection you have is your higher health and any items that might help.
So, decent chance to hit + will always do at least damage = never completely irrelevant. You just need to balance DPR to number of HD needed to deliver that many rounds of damage.
>>46493284
There's also the reverse where PC's are never irrelevant against an opponent of higher level.
>>46493252
>Actually, lvl 20 fighter (battle master) would action surge and take out 8 of them in the first turn most likely. Then take out the rest in the second turn.
Lol nope. Try with them starting 150 feet away.
>>46493261
Didn't good old SKR remove the brass knuckles do monk unarmed damage bit? Besides, you can't use half your monk shit unless you're using actual unarmed strikes, especially if you're using style feats.
"Just break the rules they're bad" isn't a very good defense of the rules.
>>46493309
>where PC's are never irrelevant
Because PCs should never be irrelevant.
>>46493252
>>46493262
Total bullshit. The scouts are going to fucking murder the fighter.
Source:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/37282162/
>>46493309
This is what annoys me most desu
I'm okay with lv 20 pcs being killed by enough kobolds
but no amount of lv 1 pcs should be able to kill an elder dragon.
>>46493351
>Didn't good old SKR remove the brass knuckles do monk unarmed damage bit?
I don't know and I don't care. If it did it's dumb.
>Just break the rules they're bad
It's no different than banning bullshit magic use or certain classes or splatbooks. If something is stupid or way too easy to abuse, then you get rid of it.
This isn't Babylon and the rules aren't Hammurabi's code.
>>46493360
It's not like a party lvl 1's are ever going to kill an elder dragon
>>46493352
There's a difference between implausible and impossible
>>46493337
If you set up exact scenarios for it yeah, but 80 scouts in an open field against a fighter isn't something that happens.
>>46493409
>80 scouts in an open field against a fighter isn't something that happens.
It's a wooded forest in the example.
Source:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/37282162/
>>46493358
>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/37282162/
That's 80 scouts, not a fucking dozen.
>>46493387
We're arguing about the rules here. If you don't wanna do that, you don't have to.
Saying "wow these rules are dumb" shouldn't have some idiot going "who cares you can change them"
they're still dumb
And it's not like you can force the DM to conform to the house-rules you want anyway.
>>46493387
>Hammuredbox's code is clear: A die for a die, and a zone of truth for a zone of truth.
>>46493434
The guy in >>46493206 said "a few dozen."
>>46493453
>And it's not like you can force the DM to conform to the house-rules you want anyway.
If your DM is such a fag that he doesn't let you do unarmed damage with brass knuckles because "the book says so!" then you should immediately go full Pun-Pun or Old Man Henderson.
Or just quit and find a not shit game.
>>46493466
"a few dozen" is probably still not 80. And, as even that thread admits, a sharpshooter fighter (with a longbow and the feats to support it, which outranges the scouts easily) could have put up a way better fight.
>>46493432
In that example the fighter starts 550 feet away and they get 14 rounds of shots at him.
The author of the scout case explicitly states that he gives the fighter a poor build and avoids giving him any of the many magical items that would let the fighter win.
Even an unenchanted ranged weapon would give the fighter a chance. To say nothing of how ridiculous the scenario is.
>>46493252
wizards are still exponential, but its not nearly as exponential. Their upper register is a lot lower than it was. Sure he could just bloop off to his personal demi-plane, but it's now just a 20x20 empty room, not completely customizable, where he can have fire elementals working a forge for him day and night building a heatproof golem army in a replica of the sun so they're always super happy and healthy, or some other stupidity. Save or sucks now all take multiple rounds of failed saves (with the possible exception due to unclear wording of Contagion, though I assume unity of form, three saves before the effect kicks in, rather than "lol we made something better than most 9th level spells it neuters anything with a con score no save, and if you fail the saves then its permanent even as if that mattered when you're already dead," that /tg/ likes to hail it as. Just seems more logical).
On a side note, I will admit that I do sort of wish that fighters got to tamper with reality as well though. Strike! and Dungeon World both have some minor instances, basically just being able to muscle your way out of or through anything as a given, with you rolling for how few unintended side effects you're able to avoid causing. But that's still not really enough, still too limited in scope.
If hercules can lift a river and drag it through a stable, I don't see why martials can't have nice reality-changing things.
It'd be like psionics, but instead of tapping into the supernatural powers of mental perfection, it'd be tapping into the supernatural powers of physical perfection.
rename power points as stamina, and you've got something really neat.
It seems so obvious. And yet, not done. It saddens me.
>>46493351
its gone back and forth several times, but final verdict was that they got monk damage, and were monk weapons.
So you can "enchant your fists" for those sweet +5s and magic effects just fine.
The lack of armor enchants is still a thing though, I think, unless there's some kind of body wraps or something.
>>46493555
>where he can have fire elementals working a forge for him day and night building a heatproof golem army in a replica of the sun so they're always super happy and healthy, or some other stupidity.
yeah if you had an infinite sum of money and experience i guess you could do this.
fucking idiot.
>>46493523
whatever, if you don't want to talk about the rules, no one is forcing you to.
>>46493555
>Save or sucks now all take multiple rounds of failed saves
Hypnotic pattern. You need some support, but you just land it once, and now you can focus fire down everyone 1 by 1. Sure, it's not great against single target enemies, but even then it's ridiculously good and also low level. Combine with a skeletal army if you want to be self sufficient.
>>46493599
>yeah if you had an infinite sum of money and experience i guess you could do this.
>implying wizard can't get infinite amount of money by level 20
>implying the wizard is the one crafting the stuff so he needs to pay the experience
>implying even if he didn't have those, he couldn't just teleport to a random acceptable target, kill it, gain his stuff and the measly amount of experience he needs for casting
>>46493360
>but no amount of lv 1 pcs should be able to kill an elder dragon.
The original test we did was 100 peasants against a young dragon. Could a village organize to kill a dragon the size of a cow that had been terrorizing it. The answer was barely. An entire village could barely kill a young dragon, given surprise round, before it started taking out large swaths of them
For an elder dragon... Hectopeasant-ing technically works, but again, only so far as they've got surprise round, and enough crossbow bolts in the air that the 3.5% or whatever (5% with disadvantage due to extended range) that hit take it out that first turn before it turns around and routs them all with fire breath and Lair and legendary actions.
Which if memory serves required an impromptu militia like, 800+ strong.
A lvl 1 party will never singlehandedly kill an elder dragon.
>>46493555
I'd prefer they just reduced the amount of reality warping all together, or at least locked it behind something, either difficulty or a different level band.
20 levels isn't enough in my mind for the scope of DnD.
>>46493712
>implying wizard can't get infinite amount of money by level 20
i don't know if you just read brilliantgameologist forums and think that's how real life play works but no, most DMs would ban many of the books and spells they use to achieve massive bullshit.
and you couldn't teleport to a random person in any edition. you have to know where you're going.
>>46493599
I legitimately know someone who did this in a campaign. Its where I got the idea to say it. There's no way I'd be able to come up with something that flabbergasting. I don't really think like a caster. Skillmonkeys are more my role.
Also, printing money is easy for wizards after a certain point. Power begets more power, money is a form of power, and thus no exception. You start with summoning a wall of iron and transforming it into masterwork longswords. then you build your empire from there.
by the time you hit automation, you're raking in dough for free, then reinvesting it into more automation.
>>46493733
4e had 30, was that better?
Or maybe you just need to use slow experience track for your ideal narrative.
>>46493807
>You start with summoning a wall of iron and transforming it into masterwork longswords
except you can't do this without the swords turning into dust or goo and being labeled as a charlatan in every town you go to ever.
>>46493829
I just prefer games that go wide rather than tall
>>46493796
>ban
thanks for not contributing to the thread
any argument that rely on banning or houseruling is just agreeing with the idea that the rules are broken.
>>46493852
>any argument that rely on banning or houseruling is just agreeing with the idea that the rules are broken.
Most wizard fuckery revolved/revolves around taking spells and feats from literally every fucking book and article published by WOTC and arguing RAW vs. RAI bullshit.
Banning splatbooks and such is not uncommon at all. I think you never played 3.5.
>>46493838
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm
Wall of iron doesn't disappear.
I'll repeat: stop making a fool of yourself and go to bed.
>>46493897
Wall of iron->Fabricate is PHB only and also RAW (and we can't infer RAI since the combination of the spells is never mentioned).
>>46493829
I actually think that splitting the game up into different sections using the paragon and epic paths would be a good way of going about it, having the game switch up its tone and themes once you hit these certain points.
>>46493913
>also RAW
a magically summoned wall of iron is a magic item
>>46493807
Fabricate + Blood Money.
>Animated Object long distance post. No horses, no problem. Profit off of all competitors.
For nobles, literally just give them an item of "detect poison" as a SLA, no upper cap per day.
>Open a Gate to the Realm of Earth, allow some Earth Elementals to pillage the town next door in exchange for some raw gold. Watch them earthglide, then loot whatever is left of the town once they're done. Raise the identifiable corpses, then start running a skeleton-based mining business. Thank the elementals for their business.
Begin selling one-time-use Wondrous Items, which cast Cure on the target, then inflict them with a lethal disease (1 to 2d4 days later). Start mass-producing said item. If anyone tries to put a stop to this, hire them. You've got enough gold to afford it.
Temporary extraplanar safehouses for those on the wrong side of the law. Slap down a Create Demiplane (minor), built to customer demands. Demand payment, or close the Gate to the plane before alerting the authorities to the locations of said criminal.
>>46493949
>a magically summoned wall of iron is a magic item
It's explicitly not. It's a conjuration spell. It wouldn't disappear in an AMZ either.
Hell, the spell even mentions that the wall is a normal iron wall acting normally in all regards.
"Like any iron wall, this wall is subject to rust, perforation, and other natural phenomena."
>>46493969
You do realise that only the 1% can afford any of this
>>46494019
Why would I bother appealing to poor people?
In most systems, commoners hold little to no gold, and those people in middle class hold onto it dearly.
>>46493838
Sauce?
Wall of iron is an instant duration spell that makes a permanent mundane object.
Fabricate turns 10 cu ft of material into a product of your design, assuming you can pass the approriate craft check.
>>46493897
>Banning splatbooks and such is not uncommon at all.
not my argument at all you idiot. Get better reading comprehension next time.
>>46494044
People in the middle class don't hold much in the way of gold either, the best lawyer money can buy makes only around 3k gold a year.
>>46493969
>>Open a Gate to the Realm of Earth, allow some Earth Elementals to pillage the town next door in exchange for some raw gold. Watch them earthglide, then loot whatever is left of the town once they're done. Raise the identifiable corpses, then start running a skeleton-based mining business. Thank the elementals for their business.
A more moral wizard could literally just bind earth elementals and tell them to fetch him whatever riches they find underground. A traditional mining operation is kinda wasteful.
>>46494013
Regardless you can't fashion masterwork longswords from a wall of iron because longswords are made of steel and there is no way to summon walls of Carbon to my knowledge.
>>46494051
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/wallOfIron.html
>Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold.
>>46494073
That line isn't in the 3.5 version.
>>46494071
1. people will buy iron swords too.
2. fine. we'll make cookware. cast iron skillets and frying pans. even more practical.
>>46494073
Coolio, we were talking about 3.5. That is an errata PF specifically put in to stop that from happening.
On a sidenote, I'd also like to know how the spell enforces that. Iron is iron, and even if it's terribly brittle pig iron, you could smelt it and improve it easily.
>>46494073
>pathfinder
>>46493969
cure doesn't fix lethal diseases.
so all you get this way is a bunch of dead customers, and no repeats.
>>46494101
>1. people will buy iron swords too.
for copper or silver rather than gold.
>2. fine. we'll make cookware. cast iron skillets and frying pans. even more practical.
yes, you will certainly become rich quickly with this method.
you will certainly never exceed the demand for iron pots.
>>46494112
maybe it;s hot pink.
>>46493077
This picture is so inaccurate. He doesn't have fucking retarded armor at level 80 and he isn't in a fiery hellscape. His weapon also is way too small.
2/10, would not renew subscription to this MMO.
>>46494059
>not my argument at all you idiot. Get better reading comprehension next time.
your argument was about wizards getting infinite amounts of money. most of that depends on abuse of splatbooks and such. not saying you still can't do it with core only but it's much more restrictive and probably depends on Wish (which is largely up to DM interpretation and costs a fuckton of XP)
>>46494164
silver is still profit if you're getting it for essentially free.
and any amount of money adds up over time.
The masterwork sword shit is dumb for a lot of reasons, the most basic of which are supply and demand, to say nothing of the logistics of operating worldwide businesses.
>>46494205
Its an incredibly slow method of gaining gold compared to adventuring.
>>46494198
>most of that depends on abuse of splatbooks
Gate is core, fabricate is core, wall of iron is core, animate object is core, create demiplane is core.
what are you even on about.
>>46494205
>silver is still profit if you're getting it for essentially free.
I don't know if you'd gain any money from it considering the material component and how cheap iron pots are but i don't feel like doing the math.
even if you did you would exceed the demand for pots and cookware in short order assuming you could make a big enough wall of iron. same with iron swords when there are plenty of steel ones.
>>46494205
Wall of Iron costs 50gp to cast.
>>46494198
how come the "core only is more blaanced" meme still hasn't died out?
How can you be so misinformed about this? How new are you? Baning core entirely and using only splatbooks is going to be miles more balanced simply by getting read of codzilla, sorcerers and wizards.
>>46494228
considerably less lifethreatening though.
and since you can lower prices to practically nothing, you can drive out your competition, who are mining it like idiots.
after you do that, you have a monopoly in an
otherwise medieval setting, having brought about your own personalized industrial revolution. What's a government regulation? Gauge your prices as sky-high as you wish, just so long as its still tolerable enough that mining won't feasibly resume.
>>46494242
>gate
yeah if you raid towns with earth elementals and become a wanted criminal then sure. but it requires at least level 17.
>wall of iron and fabricate
so what are you going to make with this? we've been having this conversation. you can't make masterwork swords because swords are made of steel. you could make pots and pans and shit, but you would quickly exceed the demand.
>animate object
not familiar with how you gain infinite money from this one.
>>46494321
>having brought about your own personalized industrial revolution
the industrial revolution depends on electricity not just resources you mongoloid. having an infinite supply of iron when you can't do anything with it but make pots or blocks or sell it to smiths to combine with carbon to make steel is not going to make you rich because YOU WILL EXCEED THE DEMAND.
>>46494343
Do you realize just how many items can be made of iron?
You're not going to flood the market unless you only make one kind of item.
>>46494422
>Do you realize just how many items can be made of iron?
What are you gonna make? Going to go the runescape route and make cannonballs? Oh wait there's not an infinite demand like there was in that game.
Gonna make iron support beams or some shit? Doesn't seem like a very lucrative market.
Also to make all the things you can make out of iron you would need high enough ranks in basically all the crafting skills. since we're talking about using wall of iron to become rich, i'm assuming we're talking about a level 11 or 12 wizard. can a level 11 or 12 wizard have high ranks in every crafting skill?
>>46494164
A single casting of wall of iron by a level 11 wizard creates about 44 cubic feet of iron. That weighs 21604 lbs. He could make 2160 pots in a day. I think that's a profit.
This is also ignoring that carbon can be added during the forging process, so if he has like, a bag of coal I think he could comfortably make swords or other kinds of weapons out of the wall, but w/e.
monks suck right guys?
guys?
>>46494542
YOU SUCK
>>46494485
"Every" is a fucking huge hyperbole. Especially since mostly everything you'd want to make out of iron would be covered by "tool smithing" and "weapon smithing" most likely.
You are also asking if the INT primary class can have enough skill points when skill points are keyed off of INT.
>>46494485
>can a level 11 or 12 wizard have high ranks in every crafting skill?
easily.
>>46494553
I'm hurt
>>46494198
>most of that depends on abuse of splatbooks and such.
Step one: Wall of iron
Step two: Polymorph any object to transform the iron into gold/diamond/whatever material is the most valuable.
Two spells, both in core, and you obviate the need to pay for anything.
>>46494527
>He could make 2160 pots in a day.
Floods the market in short order. Gains little money.
>>46494558
Looks like you can make weapons, armor, locks, or anything a blacksmith could conceivably make.
but you can't make weapons or armor with fabricate because you have iron, not steel, and you can't use two materials with fabricate.
so you can make iron locks or anything a blacksmith could make out of ONLY iron.
so tell me how you're going to get rich. what are you going to make and how is it not going to flood the market?
>>46494485
>can a level 11 or 12 wizard have high ranks in every crafting skill?
we've already told you to go to bed twice now. this is your last warning about making a fool of yourself. from here on out we just laugh and watch you burn of your own accord.
>>46494629
Whatever, nerd.
>>46494644
polymorph any object, if memory serves, has a time limit, the objects created are visibly magical, and is a particularly high level spell. high level enough that you should have already amassed your fortune by then.
>>46491721
>If you're close enough to be shooting close-range spells, which is where the most dangerous stuff are, you're close enough to be mid-air grappled.
This is extremely wrong.
>>46494645
>>He could make 2160 pots in a day.
>Floods the market in short order. Gains little money.
>so tell me how you're going to get rich. what are you going to make and how is it not going to flood the market?
I'm going to make exactly nothing. Instead, I'll extort the nations blacksmiths. give me money or I flood your markets.
>>46494644
>flood the market with diamonds
>they cost nothing now and you're having level 20+ assassins come after you for ruining the diamond market
>flood the market with gold
>every kingdom is now coming after you because you are destroying the economy
etc.
also polymorph any object is an 8th level spell.
also it's not permanent. the most you could do is change a wall of iron into a wall of diamond for a week because you can only get +8 duration factor. walls of iron aren't living nor are they minerals so you can't classify use the "same kingdom" one.
>>46494681
I was talking about 3.x, not sure if you meant something else. In 3.x, as long as you change the thing into something pretty similar, it lasts indefinitely, and it's not obviously magical.
>>46494710
>>I'm going to make exactly nothing. Instead, I'll extort the nations blacksmiths. give me money or I flood your markets.
entire armies come after you for potentially crumbling their kingdoms.
>>46494716
>>46494719
woops
>>46494710
Smiths only make 15 gp a week
>>46494645
A wizard of 11th level also has access to teleport. The entire world is his market.
It really doesn't matter what you are selling, as long as it returns more than 50 gold, since for you it's basically just free money. But thinking about it, making statues and shit would mean the price actually depends on your (easily pumpable) skill roll instead of the price listed in the books or the raw materials, meaning that'd be an avenue.
You could also just play the long game and drive everyone else out of business, then raise the prices once you have a monopoly, if we start getting into economics.
>>46494719
see
>>46494716
>>46494742
thats fine, I'm living in Caster Edition central. Let's see their mundane armies feeble attempts to address me. there are no hectopeasants here.
>>46494774
A wizard doesn't need to mess around with basic economics when he can bind efreet to his will and mass produce 15k gold magic items.
>>46494774
>iron statues
u wot?
>You could also just play the long game and drive everyone else out of business, then raise the prices once you have a monopoly, if we start getting into economics.
Who are you going to drive out of business when you can't quickly and easily do anything but make iron pots or cannonballs?
>>46494782
>thats fine, I'm living in Caster Edition central. Let's see their mundane armies feeble attempts to address me. there are no hectopeasants here.
You said extort the NATION's blacksmiths. NATIONS probably have high level casters. Higher level than you, unless your DM a shit.
Every king is going to have a 20th+ level wizard in his court.
>>46494716
Congratulations, you have proven how easy it is for the DM to fuck with the player's plan. My point was about built in mechanics as written.
>>46494831
>u wot?
You heard me.
>Who are you going to drive out of business when you can't quickly and easily do anything but make iron pots or cannonballs?
You can literally make everything iron. Just because it is not listed in the PHB, it doesn't mean those items don't exist.
>Every king is going to have a 20th+ level wizard in his court.
Why the fuck would a level 20+ wizard, who can literally create his own world care about a mortal kingdom?
>>46494819
>muh gate
yeah gate is broken. can't defend that one.
>>46494836
Your usage of mechanics is faulty. You can't permanently change a wall of iron into a wall of gold or diamond based on the chart here >>46494760. In fact I'd say the most you could get is a +6 duration factor because no walls of iron aren't intelligent and thus it doesn't apply.
So even without normal DM reactions to your faggotry, you can't do what you said.
>>46494872
Doing any kind of economic stuff in D&D is dumb, the system just isn't built for it.
>>46493222
trips, gotta give it to him
>>46494872
Changing the iron to another metal would net you a +9
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same size +2
You can't change it to gold, because gold is too valuable for it tho.
>>46494872
>>46494911
This is actually right, I missed a part in the description where it says you can't do inherently valuable things. Which makes no fucking sense because gold is not inherently valuable, but I can understand that rider existing. Still, it would be trivially easy to turn a wall of iron into something else valuable.
>>46494871
>You heard me.
No one will pay for an iron statue when there are people making them out of marble instead.
>You can literally make everything iron. Just because it is not listed in the PHB, it doesn't mean those items don't exist.
So tell me what you're going to make, where you're getting the price for it, how many you're going to sell, who you're going to sell it to, etc.
If it's so easy then do it.
>Why the fuck would a level 20+ wizard, who can literally create his own world care about a mortal kingdom?
Because good wizards exist. Even lawful good wizards that follow a god whose ideals are helping the mortal realm.
Some of them happen to be 20th+ level, just like some of them (you) happen to be evil atheists.
>>46494911
>Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
doesn't apply. Iron isn't alive and it isn't a mineral. Metals aren't classified by kingdom.
You get Class +2 Size +2 Related +2. That's it.
>>46494927
Gold is a useable resource in D&D, as its a spell component, so that would give it inherent value.
>>46494935
>Iron isn't alive and it isn't a mineral. Metals aren't classified by kingdom.
You're being needlessly pedantic. Those are just examples. Turning one metal into another metal is an obvious and implicit function under that category.
>>46494935
>Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
>doesn't apply. Iron isn't alive and it isn't a mineral. Metals aren't classified by kingdom.
Everything is in a kingdom. Metal is a class that exists inside a kingdom (mineral, but if you want, make up a new one called "supermetal" or something).
>>46494935
>>46494871
Blacksmiths would just look at you strangely if you tried to extort them for that anyway, they do more than just make and sell iron products. Most of their trade would be in repair and service.
>>46494997
>>46495008
You're doing RAI instead of RAW, and you're wrong, but even if you weren't, you can't polymorph walls of iron into walls of shit that makes you rich.
>>46495024
>You're doing RAI instead of RAW, and you're wrong
You are scraping the bottom of the barrel here by claiming that metals are not in the "mineral" kingdom when they are literally processed minerals.
>but even if you weren't, you can't polymorph walls of iron into walls of shit that makes you rich.
You can't turn it into things that make you rich _intrinsically_. You can turn it into shit that you then fabricate. Or you can turn it into a finished product, now that I think about it.
>>46495076
>You can turn it into shit that you then fabricate
Like what? I'll give it to you that you can permanently polymorph a wall of iron into a wall of steel and then fabricate masterwork swords, but you would flood the market long before you became "infinitely" rich.
>Or you can turn it into a finished product, now that I think about it.
But probably not permanently unless you're planning on making a fuckhuge steel sword or something.
>>46494164
Funny how an iron pot is worth less than the materials it's made from.
>>46495111
You know you can fabricate multiple things, right? You don't even need different skills for most.
Swords, daggers, arrowheads, plate, chainmail, everyday tools... You can corner the iron, steel, whatever metals the spell actually allows market with whatever tools you like. If you have the engineering knowhow, you could make simple machines even, as long as they are all the same material (now I wonder if you could make a pocket watch from all the same kind of steel; the springs would be problematic, but it doesn't seem impossible).
There'd come a point where economies would rely on you and you'd literally become too big to fail.
>>46488550
Low damage die on MA, MAD with stats, barely any spell resource which you can only spend on crappy spells with the exception of high levels features.
I usually home rule some stuff to make them decent:
I use the spell point system and appropriate their spell level/cost with the sorcerer.
They get to do Athletics checks with DEX.
Dash/Disengage now cost no ki (rogues can do it but a speedy martial can't?).
Tavern brawler stacks with MA damage die (I ban variant humans so no feats until lvl4) the overall damage die on them is raised by 2 at lvl 10 (so they have a MA die of d12 at lvl 20) along with perfect body giving +1 to Hp per monk level.
They can calculate AC with either DEX or STR mods so strength monks become viable.
>>46495199
Only if you're the only wizard that exists, otherwise iron just becomes next to worthless.
>>46495250
This is going in circles and captcha is trolling me, so congrats, you out stubborned me.
Goodnight.
>>46495199
>Swords, daggers, arrowheads, plate, chainmail, everyday tools... You can corner the iron, steel, whatever metals the spell actually allows market with whatever tools you like.
A few things:
You probably can't create a full sword from a steel wall because there are parts of a sword that aren't steel.
You probably can't create full suits or armor from a steel wall because there are many more ingredients in a suit of armor than just the metal.
Destroying the markets for these things nationwide and becoming a monopoly probably would create enough angry craftsmen that you would have to deal with hectopeasants or worse.
And I would make you roll for every single item you crafted. Of course it's irrelevant if you have a high enough skill modifier, but if you don't have it boosted to obscene levels yet then you might fail the masterwork check.
>If you have the engineering knowhow, you could make simple machines even, as long as they are all the same material
Follows the same reasoning as swords and armor. You probably can't make these. You might be able to make the parts and then put them together, I guess, but you would need an infinite supply of wood too, which there isn't a spell for and you can't polymorph a wall of iron into permanently.
One way to make monks good is have them not be a class at all.
I make them a Wis based fighter archetype similar to eldritch knights.
At lvl 3 they gain all lvl 1-3 monk features except for bonus action unarmed strike from MA and flurry etc. Ki features (since they already have 4 attacks as fighter).
They gain Dex saves at lvl 3.
They get Free dash/disengage as bonus action.
The ki feature is replaced by Ki spellcasting with the same mechanic as EK but no restriction on spells you can learn.
Wis casting stat and you learn from warlock and cleric lists except for eldritch blast (to avoid hex hax).
You gain all your level appropriate monk features at levels where fighters he their archetype features.
Monk archetype features are turned either into monk spells where appropriate (Sun and shadow monk stuff that you can do for free become cantrips that scale with your level).
At lvl 7 you gain the ability to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action when using your action to cast a spell (bam Scag cantrips are usable).
>>46492370
Monk with Defensive duelist can get up to 26 AC on reaction.
>>46494542
>>46494553
>>46494629
>>46494676
>>46494809
I feel this was the most productive part of this thread.
>>46493540
So why wouldn't the Fighter just fuck off at that point
Move, Dash, Action Surge to Dash
OR hide in order to make the scouts come closer.
>>46493222
>Running through a dungeon with insane speed, saving against all the traps, deflecting projectiles, and shaking off any disease/poison doesn't trigger traps or draw enemy attention. Ez game?
>>46491639
At what level 1? Big deal.
Get a potion of mage armor, and fight defensively if you want AC so badly.
>>46493191
I would take permanent magic fang or even a potion/oil of magic weapon/fang anyday over paying out the ass for an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
