Why don't we see more tanks like this in 40K setting?
>>46482662
I can see that happening.
>>46482662
Because GW actively hates realism and common sense.
>>46482727
We took everything you liked about nazi germany then stuck it into a universe that is much the same.
Here's the result.
>>46482662
For a moment, let us forget we are talking about a silly setting that works on Rule of Cool. Let's take the point seriously.
First, if we take the Tiger II as its "pop culture fame" (and not for actual battlefield performance, as it was lackluster for huge context reasons) most of the IG SuperHeavies work like that: they are big vanity projects build to engage multiple targets and to survive retaliation, and to be at the same time a living symbol of tech superiority and military power. The Soviets were guilty of similar horrors before the war and kept planning them until 1942 (say it, they have tried it: turreted tanks, multi barreles turrets, flying tanks....). So, pretty much all Superheavies are Schwere Panzerabteilung material.
On the other hand, the DESIGN of most IG tanks is, well, British. It's pretty noticeable, and they steal their "image" from typical WW1/2 Brit designs. SM tanks evolved from nondescript designs (never played 1-2 edition, sadly) to pretty much a weird M113-derived line of EVERYTHING. So, if you want to see a grandaddy to the Lemar Russ, it's the Mark series and the Churchill.
Funnily enough, when you grow up and start to read a bit you realize how nothing in the numbers about the Imperial tanks makes any sense. But guys, rule of cool.
And no, I don't want to see contemporary GW design or redesign IG vehicles. The Stormtrooper (can't be bothered to check the retarded copyright name, Tempesta something was it?) transport was so ugly I remember it after years.
>>46483173
>not for actual battlefield performance
Hey, it's battlefield performance was fine. It was just everything that it ever did off the battlefield that was terrible.
Becuase fuck you
>>46482729
>>46482662
No, it's because 40k works of Rule of Cool and bless them for it. The moment it shifts away from baroque space knights fighting alongside the bastard love-child of a Char B1 and Mk. I to generic "look at these fucking streamlined space hexagons" is the moment 40k dies.
Besides, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from making a Leman Russ proxy out of any tank kit that catches your fancy and is roughly scale-appropriate. I've got a KV-2 that I transformed into a Demolisher.
Unless you want to punish yourself by playing in a GW store, make your tank whatever the hell you want>>46482727 and role with it, the Imperium's a huge place.
>>46483435
Read the postwar brit motion study. It does not paint a comforting picture of the KT.
Though when you have the panther to compare it to, it probably looks pretty good.
>>46482662
>low profile means it's easy to scramble over
>lower track line means it has a harder time smashing through barriers
>exposed side tracks
>oversized turret means half of the profile is a weapon
>long-ass barrel that is low to the ground means it'll get stuck on even the most simple of barriers
Would not purge with/10
You're forgetting that, aside from Rule of Cool dominating 40K, 40K tanks are designed to fight a completely different type of foe from 2M tanks that we have today.
Low profiles aren't very beneficial when there are massive, legged monsters that can just jump or run over your tank, if not scramble on top of it and then spew bio-acid down the turret into the crew compartment.
Exposed side tracks are a major hazard because any and all tanks will be called upon to serve on ridiculously dangerous and hostile climates throughout the course of their lifespan, climates that aren't even feasible on Earth.
40K tanks operate much closer to heavy cavalry than they do a modern tank, because that is exactly what they need to be in their setting. Our tanks and tank designs would be fucking terrible in the 40K universe.
>>46484073
Don't suppose you have a link to it or reference?
>>46484299
This
Also having a tank dominated by a single turret is not practical in 40k
Similar to bringing back close combat it is because in general the enemies they face are very different to what we face today
For us in general tanks were fairly well matched when mass produced
If you take out an enemy tank you have effectively made your points back and other tanks is the main thing you will be fighting
In 40k you could be fightin against orks in which case killing 1 transport at a time is too slow and you will be rushed very quickly so you need multiple weapons
Against nids it is almost pointless having a tank at all especially if it has only a single weapon
you need to pour out as many rounds as possible before you get rushed or killed yourself regardless of the enemy
Side sponsons become a necessity
In 40k it is also harder to specialise the design of a tank for specific enemies as engineering progress is very slow
you need a tank than can do anything
Enter the predator and leman russ battle tank
they have multiple weapons to quickly deal with enemies and can be modified with flamers or other weapons depending on the enemy
They are however fairly similar to OPs tank but with >>46484299's fixes
>>46482662
imperium would have won by now if they used tanks like this
>>46482729
>king-tiger
>common sense
>>46483173
>weird M113-derived line
Think you mean the British FV432.
>>46482727
Mad robot miniatures got the guy who designed this. It will be released at the end of this month.
>>46485187
>>46485050
Because the Germans really sent the Allies packing with this over-engineered, logistical nightmare, didn't they?
>>46485096
This anon knows.
Look up leman russ ragnarok. That is basically a kv2 and in the fluff of 40k.
Realistically leman russes would be worse than ww2 tanks, no suspension, terrible armour, no sloping but its a game so just have fun. If you want realism add real tank parts to your leman russ. 1/36 or 1/42 scale usually work best
>>46487524
>terrible armour
when will this meme die?
40k space materials =/= modern day steel
>>46484073
wat
the panther was pretty much the best all round medium tank of the war
best - not most important
>>46484986
A modern tank isn't meant to be looked at an an individual vehicle: the reason that modern tanks are large turrets mounted on relatively simplistic hulls is that their ideal use is invisioned to be in large platoons of updwards a dozen at least, hull-down and over a hill like mobile pill-box emplacements, the turret given heavy armour and weapons as it is meant to be the most exposed part of the vehicle and the one to take the brunt of the damage, sniping enemy vehicles (and in the case of opposing tanks, the vulnerable sides) from miles away.
A modern tank would be able to destroy the basic steel/composite variant of the Leman Russ effortlessly, but would flounder in the cavalry role that the Russ was improvised for.
>>46487999
It's stated that the average Leman Russ is built out of steel and low grade ceramite because that's the most abundant material to non-forgeworlds, even in the 40th millenium.
>>46487999
The angles are terrible as well, though, as he points out in the next part of the sentence.
>>46488166
Moreover, the Russ was never designed as an MBT: it's an up-armoured heavy tractor that was pressed into the role because the Imperium's "real" MBT schematics have been long lost.
>>46487999
Because those numbers weren't given in magic space material, but with real-world comparisons.
>>46488230
wow that thing is slow as all fuck
>>46488166
Your first paragraph demonstrates that you have no understanding of the role that tanks play in modern warfare. You also have no clue as to their design.
In short, check your facts before you go into an asperger's fueled rant.
>>46488166
Isn't ceramite a 40k made-up material?
and was it steel or 'plas-steel'?
>>46488181
oh yeah the angles are garbage, no question there, same with the suspension.
>>46488258
do you know where? genuinely curious
>>46488142
>best
>it's longest term operators thought it was a piece of shit
>these operators used both Shermans and Panthers
wut
>>46488516
People tend to think that tactical considerations (armour, firepower and the like) trump operational considerations (how many do we have, how easy are they to replace/recover/modify, how easily can we keep them supplied and moving forward, etc etc). Panther may beat Sherman in a straight up firefight but for winning an entire war there's a whole other set of considerations.
>>46488230
What? That Russ was in action for 324 years? Damn.
>>46488516
>every soldier thinks the equipment he is given is shit
>because 99% of the time, it is
>>46488516
>combat statistics speak for it
>although undersupplied, no replacement parts and no special munitions (hvap/tungsten tipped w/e) and inferior steel
>piece of shit
I'm not a wehraboo, but the sherman had worse kinks than the panther.
Every soldier would think his tank is shit if he isn't supplied and the enemy has air superiority. Don't kid yourself.
Back to topic: What I don't get is why there's no T34 inspired models - I think that would synergize nicely with the theme of the IG
>>46482662
Because the AdMech doesn't have official omnisiah-approved plans for it, thus it is tech-heresy.
>>46488166
That hasn't been true since the M60: modern tanks are meant to engage the front line in a direct fire role in order to destroy stationary fortifications as well as lighter armored vehicles in quick, rapid maneuvers, keeping themselves mobile to minimize the chances of being struck whilst attempting to outmaneuver opposing tanks for the first strike; in other words, to counter the exact sort of scenario you're describing.
Both the M60 and the Russ function on arguably outdated tank doctrines that the current generation of vehicles were created specifically to defeat.
>>46488633
Which is exactly the whole underpinning point of it.
Sure, the Leman Russ might look like an antiquated hunk of crap compared to a modern MBT, but it's also the sort of tank that can be built and kept operational in the crudest conditions imaginable across the breadth of the galaxy, while still being versatile enough to be mounted with hyper-advanced laser weaponry and kinetic shields on more advanced worlds (ie. look at what the Solar Auxilia can slap on their tanks!)
>>46488718
The difference between the Sherman and the Panther and what sets the Sherman and T-34 apart from the majority of their contemporaries was the fact that they could be steadily upgraded into better vehicles: the Sherman in particular has fielded the L7 105mm and is theoretically capable of wielding a 120mm gun capable of destroying things that the Panther could only dream of, while the latter is restricted by its turret ring.
>>46488937
This is ultimately the Russ's biggest strength: if it has killed /one/ chaos space marine, it's already payed off its production cost.
>>46488968
The Panther Chassis was quite versatile if I remember correctly, but wasn't used as a self-propelled howitzer or anything because there were
a) StuGs
b) shortages in everything as the allies bombed everything to fine dust particles.
All three tanks are pretty good for their respective doctrines, it's kind of silly to compare them in this way.
>>46483599
>No, it's because 40k works of Rule of Cool
But why does "cool" have to imply "silly and dumb"? Is there some mental block that players are stuck with that prevents them from thinking anything even moderately realistic can be interesting and fun and cool? Are they that burned out on reality that they can't have fun if physics chemistry and mathematics aren't in the trash bin?
>>46488230
the Russ is an STC tank design.
The tractor tank you're thinking of is the Seigfried light tank, which the Death Korp used as Sentinel alternatives.
>>46489118
Go back to /k/
>>46489118
Because 40k was/is/and always should be over the top ridiculous by design. There are games and worlds for that. Warhammer is about taking pure insanity and elevating it to an art form. If I wanted somewhat realistic futuristic super soldiers I would look at like Halo or something. If I want 9 foot tall Teutonic Knights spitting acid and wielding chainsaws as they hack their way through a continent wide swarm of giant green soccer hooligans straight out of Eutotrip I go to 40k.
Actually the really offensive part is that people always want reality but aren't actually aware of what that looks like. For example the is literally no such thing as stealth in space. An Imperial guard army operating on Terra would be putting out so many radio waves and generating so much heat they would be visible from the Tau homeworld easily. The Tyranid hive fleets probably would have been visible to humanity as they approached since before the Great Crusade.
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewarintro.php
Read through that website for a little bit, try to apply those principles to Warhammer and tell me that 99% of what makes Warhammer fun and distinct wouldn't be lost if they tried to actually conform to reality in the slightest.
>>46487259
>>46485096
I always thought the King Tiger was more a victim of context than design. Yes, it's definitely over-designed, and standardisation is something that makes Germans rage, but it wouldhave taken only a few tweaks to get rid of most of its intrinsic flaws.
As far as I see it, the biggest weakness it has was that it was employed in a bad context. I would have thought it highly effective at defensive combat.
First weakness, that it's fucking expensive, so they have less. Less significant when you are contracting your forces, especially as a defensive campaign will focus on strong points.
Second, that having less means it's outnumbered. Less important when defending strongpoints, especially urban areas, where there are few ways to flank well and infantry support can interfere.
Third, the way many were killed, using faster tanks to tie them up until air support can hit them. But when you're defending positions, you have plenty of time to set up AA.
Fourth, the too-heavy frame, that slowed them so much in Russian shit mud or snow. LEss of a problem when you are not advancing, and little problem when you're in urban areas with road access.
Fifth, the heavy supply chain to keep them running. LEss o a problem defensively, where your logistics are short and will only get shorter.
Defensive combat also makes great use of the enormous range advantage of the Tiger, particularly in urban areas where you can have spotters up buildings. Less useful in large towns, but excellent at stopping people making it into the towns.
I could be wrong and stupid, but it seems like taking a town with a Tiger, an infantry platoon, and some AA set up, would take grossly disproportionate force.
Of course this still doesn't help Germany win at all, since the entire war plan was 'win before we start losing' and defensive warfare never helps that.
And at the very least having a 'supertank' on the ground makes for some very cool war stories.
>>46489221
the tractor meme will never die, unfortunately
>>46489587
Generally the biggest problem with German tank engineering was Hitler.
Dude couldn't let up with stacking armor on things.
Speer complained in his after war memoirs how Hitler always wanted to have tanks with more armor.
The Germans squandered a victory by delaying full economic mobilisation to the turning point of the war.
And well... had they forced the USSR into a bitter peace - I think Germany would still be radioactive today.
>>46489407
>Failed Author: The Page
Can't stand the tone.
>>46489587
The Panther and Tiger II are prime examples why war is not good for innovation.
>>46489587
If your on the D, may as well use hunter killer tanks. As if your aiming to ambush things like the stug are great.
I would really like a revamped lemon russ, but as the other anon says no stupid arse Taurus or whatever designs that made my eyes bleed.
>>46489699
That always seemed the case to me. The man had a raging hard-on for finding the wunderwaffen that would end the war, when they never really do. The only war ever ended by a superweapon was the PAcific theatre of WW2 - and all that did was save a year or two of hard work.
Ironic, that his war was the only time a superweapon could have ended things. Any further into past and a true superweapon, like a nuclear bomb, is impractical beyond imagining. Any time after they exist, and nobody is fool enough to put themselves in a position to use them (arguable, but a story for another time.) Thank fuck the SOE recognised that the Nazi nuclear program really was worth them dedicating a colossal amount of effort, resources, and local resistance to ending.
Also ironic that this war really DID see the invention of two genuine superweapons. The breaking of the Enigma code was a technological accomplishment that with one device destroyed any last chance the Germans had of not losing, and shortened the war by years. And the other was, if you count starting design in war as wartime, the AK-47, which has done more to change the nature of more wars around the world than any single weapon before it. Those sound like the definitions of suprweapons to me.
>>46489699
If Hitler had less influence, the Luftwaffe would not get depleted in the battle for britain. So allied bombers would face far more resitance.
And the british would not be able to evacuate Dünnkirchen, as the Army would squash them instead of "muh SS" and "muh Luftwaffe".
Oh and StG44 sooner.
>>46482662
You could just play historical games like Flames of War, Crossfire, Rapid Fire, etc.
That way you can use nice German tanks, and have solid rule sets that focus more on tactics than having an overpowered codex.
Not saying 40k doesn't have basic tactics, but it often doesn't matter when the game is lost from turn 1 due to your opponent having an army that will auto-rape yours, or vice versa.
40K is fine for teenagers, but if you want to get serious about wargaming, get into historicals. The units are all real so there isn't usually any issues of "40 different people wrote the rules and fluff"
>>46485050
>imperium would have won by now if they used tanks like this
I'm pretty sure the Germans lost using tanks like this. Being broken down and out of fuel conquers few planets....
>>46489699
Nazi Germany would of developed the bomb long before Russia (if it had survived the war) Russia relied on stolen research Nazi had theit own scientists; they were pretty close but never had enough dissing materials due to allied actions on heavy water plants.
>>46490018
What I meant is that the USA would have either left Europe alone completely and let the UK rot or they would have bombed Germany to radioactive bits.
Germany was on a completely false track to the atom bomb. They were years away from having a prototype.
>>46490085
Problem with that is the fact that uranium wasn't really that available back in the days. Yeah a bunch of cities would be wastelands but that was easier to achieve with just dropping fire bombs eg dresden. The main advantage of a nuclear weapon was the terror factor that only a single bomb caused such devastating consequences.
>>46489941
>The only war ever ended by a superweapon was the PAcific theatre of WW2 - and all that did was save a year or two of hard work.
And even that's debatable. Japan already had plenty of reasons to surrender at that point even without the bomb.
>>46489776
You sound like you're bitter because he's slaughtering your sacred cows and serving up some pretty good steaks.
Because 40k tanks are a weird mix of ww1 design, and derp-tarded.
In short, because 40k is derp-tarded.
>>46490298
People who believe Japan was going to surrender, have no fucking clue how zealous they were. They got their ass handed to them in the greatest land-based defeat in the country's history by the hands of the Soviet Union. And STILL they were planning on equipping every man, woman, and child with explosives to fight back against the armoured superiority. It took the atomic bombs for them to finally concede that they would be annihilated on two fronts.
>>46489587
>I could be wrong and stupid
You pretty much are, tbqh. The Tiger B had good maneuverability for its size and weight, and frontal armor heavy enough to remain invulnerable while engaging targets at range with its cannon. Urban fighting will help eliminate both of these advantages. Tanks don't like urban fighting.
>>46490789
The japanese mostly surrendered due to the soviet invasion into manchuria. Look it up.
desu the firebombing of tokyo had more of an effect on the japanese decision to surrender that the nukes.
The japanese high command was 50/50 on wether to surrender or keep fighting, they had just lost some valuable production in manchuria (not like the US taking some tiny islands in the pacific had any hit on their production), and they were divided.
The emperor broke the tie, having just visited tokyo, which was mostly destroyed, and he went on the radio and told the entire country to back down.
The Japanese would have surrendered on the day they did with or without the atomic bombs. I'm sorry if the whole "nukes were necessary" propaganda is deep seated in your brain, but its not my problem.
Vaporizing 100,000 people in a civilian town is never necessary. Nagasaki wasn't even the original target of that bomb, the US were just racing to try to make the Japanese surrender before the soviets did, and to show off their new bombs.
The US have actually been pretty smart with their propaganda. Most people seem to think the nukes ended WW2, instead of seeing US as war criminals who poisoned 2 entire cities for generations.
Dirty bombs just aren't fun for anyone. Agent orange was another horrendous US war crime, but thats another story.
>>46490363
Or maybe the article is just weak?
I could destroy the sun and you wouldn't notice anything for 8 minutes because it's so far away. Light, radio and information takes time to propagate from the source. And once it does you still have to parse that data into a usable format, assuming mind, that you even know what you are looking for.
So the whole "no stealth in space" basically boils down to "someone would notice, eventually, maybe". But would they notice in time to avoid getting killed by something trying it's level best to avoid being seen? Probably not!
>>46490969
You forgot the depleted uranium in Afghanistan and Iraq.
>>46490999
There's two schools on that thought.
Either people develop FTL and stealth is valid again, as you're too fast for any ways of picking up your signal.
Or you travel at relativistic speeds and people observing space are going to see you coming.
>>46491005
ok, why would the US even need to use depleted uranium rounds against monkey model soviet vehicles.
>>46491069
they didn't they used TOW missiles on M2A2 bradleys mostly.
Hence why they didn't need depleted uranium.
>>46490999
If they're minutes out at light speed, they'd be years away from actually getting there.
>>46491094
AHH!! That explains the deformed iraqi children and rampant leukemia.
Top jej americlap
>>46489118
>40k stuff isn't the way i like my every other stuff
>therefore, 40k players are bad and should feel bad
Just fucking proxy a tank design you do like, or go play a sci-fi setting that's closer to what you like. It's not that hard bro.
>>46490969
>The Japanese would have surrendered on the day they did with or without the atomic bombs.
If that's true, then why did it take two of them? If they were already going to surrender you'd think that getting nuked the first time would have expedited the whole surrender thing.
>>46491005
Arguably white phosphorus too.
>>46491241
>It's not like we would use cluster bombs, UN-Senpai!
uses cluster bombs
>We won't be using Napalm though, UN-Senpai
Proceeds to use the stuff regardless.
US Values at work
>>46491278
AFAIK they don't use napalm anymore. Thermobarics are the newhotness.
>>46491278
>look up and see my country has signed the treaty on not using napalm
Feels good man.
>>46490969
More people would have died without the bombs. Period. An Invasion predicted over a million casualties on the AMERICAN SIDE ALONE. There are pictures of japanese officers teaching citizens how to create bamboo spears. They wouldn't have given up that day. In fact, they denied surrender the day of, or before, I can't quite remember, the first bomb went up into the air.
Argue the consequences in hindsight all you want, at the moment, they made the correct choice. It may have been a terrible choice to make, but it definitely wasn't the worst choice. They begged and plead multiple times for Japan to surrender, and every moment they waited, more citizens were being armed, and that raises the risk of more people dying. I honestly think if Japan or Germany didn't surrender when they did, there would be no Germany or Japan as we know it anymore.
>>46491511
The other anon specifically mentioned that the emperor told people to back the fuck down after tokyo got firebombed.
>>46488937
It can also be fueled by anything flammable, even wood.
>>46491537
And? That isn't him signing a peace treaty. I don't doubt the great majority of citizen would have dropped their arms and ran at the sight of the US. A peasant army drops their arms at the sight of any more advanced foe. My point is, the Japanese would have rathered the Americans send thousands of troops to the slaughter at their beacheads before ever giving up. Just because a figurehead tells it's people to give up doesn't mean the actual government will allow that, and they are the enemy. They were willing to risk the lives of hundreds of thousands MORE innocents just for a zealous ideal. and up until it actually happened, we were pleading them to give and up, and they kept denying it. this is fact.
>>46489955
>but if you want to get serious about wargaming, get into historicals
No offense, but that sounds kinda pretentious. I wont argue that 40k is a awful ruleset, but there are plenty of other games that are good. Stuff like Infinity, Warmachine and Kings of War are all fairly tight systems, and still incorporate fantastical elements.
>>46492119
I think you missed the previous writer's point. If OP wants realistic tank(tactic)s, there are games for that. Your example don't offer that.
>>46485144
U wot mate?
>>46491511
>An Invasion predicted over a million casualties on the AMERICAN SIDE ALONE
Source, other than Truman's bullshit memoirs?
These are from the Joint War Plans Committee report of 15 June 1945, entitled "J.W.P.C 369/1, Details of the Campaign Against Japan," which was distributed to the President as well as Admiral Duncan, a bunch of generals, etc. It's taken from "A World Destroyed" by Martin J. Sherwin, and regardless of what you may think of that author it is by all indications a faithful reproduction of the original document. It reads,
"The best estimate of casualties for these possible sequences of operations follows. For the reasons stated above, it is admittedly only an 'educated guess'.
Southern Kyushu, followed by Tokyo Plain, to mid-1946: Killed in Action 40,000, Wounded in Action 150,000, Missing in Action 3,500, Total 193,500.
Southern Kyushu - Northwestern Kyushu: Killed in Action 25,000, Wounded in Action 105,000, Missing in Action 2,500, Total 132,500
Southern Kyushu - Northwestern Kyushu - Tokyo Plain: Killed in Action 46,000, Wounded in Action 170,000, Missing in Action 4,000, Total 220,000"
The only place I see anything close to 1 million in a legitimate document is "Casualty Estimates, the Soviet Union and the Far East" 1 June 1945 by the War Department Office of the Chief of Staff, which claims that an invasion of Japan and China/Manchukuo should be avoided because "1. America will save 500,000 to 1,000,000 lives and an enormous loss of resources" General C Marshall, Chief of Staff replied to that on 4 June 1945 that "It is obvious that peace would save lives and resources, but the estimated loss of 500,000 lives due to carrying the war to conclusion under our present plan of campaign is considered to be entirely too high."
tl;dr 1 million is bullshit Truman wrote up to sound good. Actual KIA casualties expected to be less than 50,000
>>46492710
Hm. Is there more detail to that estimate? That seems suspiciously low, especially in the context of the pacific theatre battles beforehand.
Admittedly much of the early high casualty rates was the US general staff using shit tactics that didn't work well until they got their shit together,, but that doesn't account for a meagre 50,000 dead. I don't see one million against a collapsed army, but surely higher. Especially if that egotistic shit-cunt Macarthur was anywhere nearby.
>>46492832
because the americans got gud at naval landings and the japanese were starved of resources.
>>46483599
KV-2 expy exists in 40k though, its called the ragnarok.
>>46492832
There's not much more detail to it and I don't have a scanner so I don't really feel like typing the whole book. However, based on a bunch of other readings, I would suggest the following possibilities:
>1. Inter-organizational bureaucratic competition within military led to shit estimates
It's very clear that by the end of the war, the USAF, Navy and Army all wanted to be "the guys who won the war" and were all basically fudging numbers to make it seem like they won. This was literally the entire point of the Strategic Bombing Service surveys and interviews in Japan in the mid-late '40s; they wanted to prove that the firebombing campaign won. So keep that in mind.
>2. Japan was out of shit by this point
Seriously, they didn't have the fuel to run their own ships anymore (part of the reason behind the suicide attack by the last grouping when the Yamamoto went down in April '45). They had already been starved out by the Navy's blockade. They could hold off on a defensive war but it would have been without support. Keep in mind that all of their best divisions were on the mainland (Kwantung Army) and those collapsed against the USSR invasion in literally 11 days. The US Army expected the Kwantung Army to hold out longer than that, but even so, they probably knew that the Japs on the islands were fucked as well.
>3. They were going to bomb the shit out of them
Jap air force was kill at this point. Jap navy was kill at this point. It was going to be US Marines + Army invasion force with Navy and air support against Japan's shittiest divisions.
Anyway I read the rest of that document while typing this. I'll post a few quotes but post too long so (1/2)
>>46492855
Yeah, but even though the US developed better tactics, they did not develop better officers. The fucking abysmal attitudes of many of the egotists in direct on-site command were responsible for thousands of deaths and casualties that were completely unnecessary.
Deaths in combat throughout the US pacific theatre up to surrender were some 115,000, if I remember rightly. Given the population concentration and the mania of Japan, I have difficulty imagining fewer US soldiers dying on the way.
Especially considering that the idea that they are no longer fighting for the glory of Japan but for its continued existence could very easily kick resistance into overdrive.
>>46493087
Doesn't matter how much zeal they have, they wouldn't have the material to fight a war.
>>46493142
That has never stopped them before. That has never stopped anyone before, look at Stalingrad.
>>46493164
Only Stalingrad was backed up by actual armies that were well supplied for the entire duration of war. Hell, the vietcong, and the mujahideen were able to carry out their asymmetric warfare because they were backed by giant states with massive MICs.
Japan had none of that. At the time of dropping the bomb it was japan against the rest of the world.
>>46493064
Hm. I had forgotten that the Manchurian divisions were cut off from the mainland so fast. I would have expected them to return if the mainland itself was invaded, but that was never a realistic possibility, because the US would have waited to invade until after the Soviets attacked. It'd be stupid not to.
>>46493202
how would the manchurian divs even return when the US navy was in position?
>>46493064
Man FUCK CAPTCHA
Sorry for typos if any:
>"The scale of Japanese resistance in the past has not not been very predictable. Casualty expectancy rates based on experience in the Pacific vary greatly from the short bloody battle of Tarawa to the unopposed landing at Lingayen. It would be difficult to predict whether Jap [sic] resistance on Kyushu would more closely resemble the fighting on Okinawa or whether it would parallel the battle of Leyte. Certain conclusions can however be reached. The highest casualty rate occurs during the assault phase of an amphibious operation; casualties in land warfare are a function of the length of campaign and of the scale of opposition encountered. Naval casualties can be expected to vary directly with the number of amphibious operations involved and with the length of the campaign. Casualties can be kept to a minimum, then, by terminating the war at the earliest possible time by means of the fewest possible assault operations and by conducting campaigns only in decisive areas. The presently planned campaign, which involves two assaults followed by land campaigns in the Japanese homeland, is in conformity with this principle. Further, the extent of the objective area gives us an opportunity to effect surprise as to the points of landing and, once ashore, to profit by our superiority in mechanized power through maneuver. Should it be decided to follow the southern Kyushu operation by another operation such as against northern Kyushu in order to exploit bombardment and blockade, and should this bring about capitulation of the Japanese, the casualties should be less than for the presently planned campaign. We consider that at this time it would be a pure gamble that the Japanese would admit defeat under such conditions. If they do not, invasion of the Tokyo Plain might still be required with resultant increased casualties.”
And then it goes on to what I posted before, 46k estimate
>>46493201
Fair enough. Tbh I don't care if i saved lives or cost them, whatever way we get back at them for what they did in the Philippines and China is good by me. God that was fucked up.
>>46493289
see by this reason the brits should starve because of what they did in bengal.
Even though on the ground bongs and GIs were not to blame and actually tried helping the starving villagers.
>>46493289
Oh by the way, /his/ has a horror war thread up, it has pretty good pics.
>>46491511
An invasion would never have happened. We've already established that the Japanese would have surrendered on the day they did. No invasion needed. Many bombs were dropped on Japan. many cities destroyed. 2 A bombs didn't really mean shit. The primary reason for Japans surrender was the soviets closing on the Japanese mainland through manchuria.
It seems to be a US pride thing, they want to feel special because they ended the war with japan, but it was the Russians who did this. Taking all those pacific islands didn't really mean shit and I guess Americans felt butthurt about that so they had to nuke japan when they were on the verge of surrender anyway.
Really the US started the war in the pacific due to the strong sanctions on Japan. Japan was heavily constricted by these sanctions, so they decided to try to wipe out the US fleet. And it almost worked. Unfortunately for japan you can never outproduce US and Russia combined.
Its like US kept poking a rat, then got bitten, and the Russians had to come in and chop off the rats head.
>>46493280
>muh projected casualties.
If the US had waited 6 days, the Japanese would have surrendered. The Nukes were unnecessary and Truman knew this, He just wanted to show off his new toys in front of the russians. And get some good battle-testing in before the war was over and people realized how destructive nuclear weapons were. the US using these weapons essentially started the cold war. If they'd kept these ideas to themselves, locked away in a filing cabinet, the cold war would never have happened.
>>46493316
If we dropped bombs on Belgium to prevent their atrocities in Africa I would defend that too.
>>46493464
Given the size and scope of the Manhattan project I'm sure the information and plans would have gotten to Russia regardless.
>>46493507
it doesn't work like that.
you really can't fight fire with fire, no matter how poetic it might seem.
> bitching about a bombs
Yeah, world peace between super powers sucks.
>>46490969
Ohsosuperior Eurofaggot detected.
>US war crimes abloobloobloo
Blow it out your ass.
>>46493569
You can specifically fight fire with fire. You can do lots of small fires to stop a really bad one. You can start small fires around a fire to starve it so it dies. You can even take the hardest fires to put out and put them out with a huge explosion, and explosions are just very quick fire.
What you said is the opposite of true.
>>46493569
Violence followed by welcoming peace and assimilation worked to curb the culture of hate in Japan and Germany pretty well.
>>46483435
The very first engagement they ever fought in ended with 3 being knocked out to a single t34. After most of the unit had broken down on a simple road march. Because once again hitler needed his shiney new wunderwaffe on the field now and testing is for bitches.
They looked scary, but never achieved the success that the Tiger I achieved. Tiger I's were more maneuverable, and still had good armor and firepower until the final days of the war that were superior to most allied tanks. With well trained crews, the Tiger I was still arguably better than the Tiger II, if only because it didnt breakdown as often due to an even more hilariously abused power train on the Tiger II that makes the tiger I look reasonable.
Simply put, the tiger II was a joke on the strategic level. It was somewhat passable in defense because then you dont need to move, but attacking with them usually ended in disaster as they were too slow and were easily outmaneuvered. Not to mention the additional problems people never mention like it needed special rail cars to transport it (without which you would be fucked) being unable to drive on most bridges and literally falling into sewers because roads couldnt support them. Then we get into hilarity with its gas mileage, stupidly long barrel making it a pain in urban areas, slow speed limiting its use in counterattacks, and the fact that it hoovered up precious resources that couldv been used to make more tanks that they already knew worked well, like panthers, hetzers, stugs, and panzer IV's, tanks which were already proven and tested, and couldve been made in higher numbers.
>>46493641
you cannot extend that to society at large. Change that last comes from the bottom up, not from the top down.
>>46493640
Then don't cry about 9/11 like a faggot. Other countries have been through similar terrorist attacks and they don't bitch about it or act like it is world changing.
>>46491241
It didn't "Take Two of Them".
Leslie Groves (I.E. the guy in charge of the project who hedged his bets by backing both processes of bomb creation) was kind of in a fix when actually, both methods he backed, worked. With the end of the war and financial accountability via congressional review of his project looming, he had to find some way to justify his expenses, as it were. So he called in all the favors he could and really worked the political channels in the military he had access to (A lot. Really. He wasn't inconsiderable at all. They did put him in charge of the Manhattan Project.) and pushed the idea of using two bombs.
Without being able to point at the apparent need for two bombs he would have been in deep shit for "wasting" that much money, but by working at it and pushing for the use of two bombs, it appeared more reasonable and necessary for him to have spent that much money on two different sites and methods of enrichment/bomb creation.
He also sort of ran roughshod over everything remotely near his nuclear reserves, although if it was deemed necessary to have at least one bomb, somebody was going to get screwed over that just because of the need for security. (Whether it would have been rural Tennessee or Washington that got shafted would have depended on how appealing whichever site seemed. I don't really know which one was "better".)
>>46490969
>Vaporizing 100,000 people in a civilian town is never necessary.
There are no civilians in total war you kale munching twink.
>>46493700
which is why the japanese and germans were not tried for war crimes.
Oh wait.
>>46493700
Lol we killed more people in fire bombing Tokyo, honestly whats the difference if you say total war as practiced by both sides is wrong ok we can have a convo, but if you say using nuclear weapons is somehow more immoral thats fucking stupid. Go to any va hospital and you can see conventional warfare fucks up people long term just like nuclear warfare just a different road to get there.
>>46493680
>Then don't cry about 9/11 like a faggot. Other countries have been through similar terrorist attacks and they don't bitch about it or act like it is world changing.
>similar terrorist attacks
Thousands dead in their largest and most economically important city and a direct attack on their military high command serious? Examples, please.
>just take it lying down like a bitch
Maybe if people started treating Paris and Brussels like mini 9/11's we could finally be read of that shifty goatfucking religion.
>>46493718
There are no civilians on the losing side you flower sniffing pansy.
>>46493757
I'm on your side, dude.
>>46493758
>Thousands dead in their largest and most economically important city and a direct attack on their military high command serious? Examples, please.
Israel has had that.
India has had similar attacks.
>must take it lying down
And american machismo ended up creating the current situation in Europe.
Team america world police fucked up entire swathes of the middle east and dumped a shit load of aloha snackbars in the middle of europe.
>>46493425
Japan articulated wrong. If they had explained to America and the Bongs that the Chinks were on the verge of becoming the Commies we all know and love today, and didn't back fucking Hitler of all people (the Germans were sympathetic to the Chinese during the time, something often overlooked), and limited their shenanigans to /just/ China, America would have batted a blind eye.
>>46493780
Either there are no civilians in total war, or there are civilians in war on both fucking sides. You can't play the part of the conqueror and the liberator as the same character.
>>46493780
ya wrong reply sorry.
>>46493818
>some techmarine has to repair that shit.
>>46493787
>Israel has had that.
Aread you implying that Israel doesn't play the victim every chance they get?
>and dumped a shitload of snakbars in the middle of Europe.
If I remember correctly, you yurofags let them in.
>>46493202
They couldn't m8. They were cut off by that point.
Japan is not self-sufficient in energy resources, and iirc they aren't in food either (but might might have been at that time). But it was a separate question as to whether the Kwantung Army would fight on independently (they had effectively ignored orders from the islands before).
I read an interesting article once that argued the Navy won the war and Japan was about to fold. If you'd like I can go find the title, but it's probably behind a pay wall or on JSTOR or something.
>>46493289
I sort of agree, but they should have just bombed the command structures. Jap civvies were often basically just slaves. According to the Okinawan government (in my opinion not a reliable source) the Jap soldiers started giving everyone grenades at the end of the war and told them to blow themselves up when the Americans showed up. kek
But either way fire bombing was actually worse, killed way more people in way worse ways. At least Hiro/Nagasaki were quick
>>46493464
Holy shit, I didn't realize Alperowitz posted on /tg/.
The war would have been over pretty quickly either way, yes. Could have taken until the end of 1946 though. Even after the 1st bomb was dropped on Aug 6, Hirohito was unable to obtain a surrender decision until the 9th (when the second bomb was dropped, although the decision was made prior to it being dropped). However, even after the 9th, he was unable to get the government to fully agree until the 14th. So basically the whole "Hirohito's surrender meeting was surely going to work" thesis is pretty flimsy.
Cold War would have happened either way for a whole bunch of reasons, and is due to many factors, including
>Polish Question
>Long Telegram
>Stalin's security goals incompatible with US/European understanding of war aims
>US and UK didn't let USSR in on creation of bomb
etc
>>46493533
Julius Rosenberg, Klaus Fuchs, etc
>>46493832
I love how the middle one is so clearly possessed, really ties the whole squadron together.
>>46493816
This whole "civilian" thing is dumb. Civilians are just soldiers that haven't gone through the recruitment line, and as long as they're contributing to the society fueling the military in question, they're something that can be potentially targeted.
Middle Eastern terror groups realized this, which is why they're pulling no punches when it comes to who goes down, and they were not suddenly totaled down and and destroyed the moment they did so as it would be believed.
>>46493816
>Either there are no civilians in total war, or there are civilians in war on both fucking sides.
There are no citizens in total war, the loser just gets shit on by the winner for killing non-combat citizens.
>You can't play the part of the conqueror and the liberator as the same character.
Why not? They don't seem mutually exclusive.
>>46493680
>Then don't cry about 9/11 like a faggot. Other countries have been through similar terrorist attacks and they don't bitch about it or act like it is world changing.
The daily news disagrees.
>>46482662
Imperium has a more early WW2 aesthetic. Their tanks are much more akin to infantry tanks than later heavy tanks, with the Leman Russ, Macharius, Baneblade, and Malcador looking like British and French early war tanks as well as some stuff taken from early war Russian heavy tanks. Besides German tanks look like shit.
>>46482729
>Because GW actively hates realism and common sense.
Funny fact Germans were absolute shit at tank design throughout WW2 and had to compensate by just using bigger guns and more armour resulting in expensive and hard to maintain tanks. Even the most advanced tanks Germany had when WW2 broke out, the Pz III and Pz IV were useless against the Char B1, Matilda, and KV-1, being unable to penetrate their armour in any way forcing German commanders to rely on towed artillery, anti-aircraft guns, and eventually towed anti-tank guns.
Even when they started developing more advanced tanks they were always well behind the allies, with the 17pdr massively outperforming the German 7.5 cm long gun, while the tanks that used them were more mobile and reliable. Plus the Sherman had a partially stabilized gun and the 17 pdr could use APDS ammunition giving it a massive advantage. By the end of the war even the Soviets had started producing tanks that greatly outmatched anything Germany could field with the US, UK, and USSR developing the Centurion, Pershing, and T-54 respectively all of which greatly surpassed anything Germany was actually developing in terms of mobility, lethality, and in many ways protection.
Put simply if you want good tanks you should find out what the Germans did and do the exact opposite.
>>46493883
>Middle Eastern terror groups realized this, which is why they're pulling no punches when it comes to who goes down, and they were not suddenly totaled down and and destroyed the moment they did so as it would be believed
This, and it's why we're losing against goatfucking sand farmers. We're trying to "win hearts and minds" (like that'll ever work in a country we're warring in) by attempting to ignore the ones that aren't shooting at us right that instant.
>>46493862
The only reason europe had to let them in was because ameriburgers wanted to do a sequel to the gulf war. The american government created this entire fucking mess and acted all high and mighty while the middle east burned and the embers set europe alight.
>>46493927
>had to let them in
You didn't "have" to do anything you whiny cunt; you could have just kept the gates shut and turned away the boat people like Australia.
>oh boo hoo America started this mess
And we would have finished it and cleaned it up if political divides at home didn't cause us to do a quarter-assed job. We shouldn't have burned the ME, we should have glassed it.
>>46493968
Just like you glassed the natives eh?
Then why not drop the entire pretense of being the defender of the free world and say that you just want to get your murderlust on. Become the ubermensch so as to speak
>you should have deported them
too bad the treaties you sign have to mean something.
>>46493927
>murrica only
Don't even fucking joke, Britain and Russia turned the ME into their political shitting grounds post WW2 as well. The gamesmanship between the east and the west basically made Western Europe and the Middle East into the shithole they are today, and every major country is complicit.
>>46483599
>I've got a KV-2 that I transformed into a Demolisher.
The correct use of a KV-2 model kit is to make a ragnarok battle tank
>>46494063
Toying with the post cold war Ba'athist states is a largely american initiative so that their saudi pets can keep fooling around.
>>46489958
Their tanks were godlike. Allied air superiority and strategic bombing decimating the German industrial base and supply lines were the problems.
>>46494026
>Just like you glassed the natives eh?
That was an accident, (at least until Jackson got into office), and the Spaniards killed the actually semi-civilized ones, not us.
>defender of the free world
Islam is utterly and totally incompatible with the free world and western civilization, barring a major religious reform amongst its adherents. I have no qualms about supporting the quashing and suppression of literal savages.
>>you should have deported them
No, you should never have let them in to your countries in the first place you retard.
>>46494090
Backed up by the British because we both needed the oil and wanted to stop the spread of Russia, meanwhile the other so called "neutral" countries did their best to pretend the middle East didn't exist.
>>46494086
I don't know but I am reminded of Michael Wittman rolling in his tiger blowing KV1s up. Fuck, the tiger was a legendary vehicle.
>>46494090
>Implying the majority of Europe didn't join the US in the second Gulf War
No treaty forced you into either gulf war.
>>46494026
Because our government changes too rapidly to stick to any one idea. The Dems and Reps are playing pingpong over whether they want to be "heroes", whatever the hell that means, or whether they want to take up the UK's old mantle as global empire with pride. At this point, annexing the ME and rebuilding it from the ground up (like what we did with Korea) sounds like a better option than whatever the hell we're trying to accomplish right now, but for some reason drone-bombing them with upwards of a 100 civilians worth of "collateral damage" each mission and extending this conflict to an unreal degree is considered "more moral".
Evidently, some of us really, really wished the Bongs kept being the world's driving force so we could just sit back and continue to be isolationist. We'd be glad to offer them the position back if they had the guts and will to take it.
>>46494086
>the position of that cupola
where is the breach?
>>46494113
you mean the brits basically used the americans as tools to keep playing the great game. And I am referring to post cold war era states like iraq and gaddafi's libya. They were minding their business but made the saudis butthurt
>>46494110
well too bad then that the KSA is one of america's primary allies and is responsible for spreading the cancer that is wahabism.
>you should sink their boats and let them down in the ocean.
>Deus Vult crusades now
>Saudi arabia pls buy our latest military hardware.
>>46494148
>Evidently, some of us really, really wished the Bongs kept being the world's driving force so we could just sit back and continue to be isolationist. We'd be glad to offer them the position back if they had the guts and will to take it.
Speak for yourself senpai, I eagerly await the United States of Terra.
>>46494139
Because tony blair was a Saint.
>>46494180
>well too bad then that the KSA is one of america's primary allies and is responsible for spreading the cancer that is wahabism.
>implying I necesarly agree with everything my government does
>implyng I don't know that they're cancer and should be executed via flying, remote controlled guillotine
>you should sink their boats and let them down in the ocean.
>Deus Vult crusades now
>Saudi arabia pls buy our latest military hardware.
You should tell them to go >>>/back/ to where they came from, and if they don't fucking detain them or then sink their boats.
>let them drown in the ocean
A few thousand hijab-wearing buoys seems like a fair price for the dead in Paris and Brussels.
>>46494148
the US doesnt have the money to "rebuild" the middle east, who's problems stem further back than WWII, to WWI and the collapse of the ottoman empire. Whats going on in the middle east right now is more that just ideological strife, there are too many people living in that area, and the shifting climate and dwindling water supplies are making this even more tenuous. On top of that aside from oil there is little of economic value leading to a region which is mostly depressed, and the wealth is concentrated in very few hands. The result is large numbers of poorly educated, unemployed/underemployed people who are in question of even basic resources like water. Throwing money at this is not going to fix it.
>>46494226
yes I agree that they should be put in camps and get sent back at the first opportunity.
>let the civvies rot.
>they hate us
>because we invaded their country put the nuttiest nutters in charge of it and then left.
oh gee.
>>46494229
>there are too many people living in that area
I agree, genocide sounds like a wonderful plan.
>>46494157
The gun is loaded by the raging erection the commander gets from blowing up xenos and tratiors.
It is powered by faith.
these 2 are powered by bad assery.
>>46494267
hey, they go against my values of a nice suburb and bacon rashers.
They deserve to be fertilizer.
>>46488142
The panther was a decent (but flawed) tank that the germans were forced to build because hitler threw a tantrum when they asked if they could just clone the T-34
>>46494298
the panther couldn't handle the extra armor on it. The concept was solid but hitler wanted
>MOAR ARMOR
on it.
>>46494263
>dae le Nazis!
Yes, yes, very funny euroshit.
>let the civvies rot.
>they hate us
>because we invaded their country put the nuttiest nutters in charge of it and then left.
Of course they hate us, why wouldn't they hate us? I don't give a shit if they hate us, so long as we win.
If that includes killing a few hundred more every time a few of them get uppity, then so be it. It'll ease the population pressure in that god forsaken desert.
>>46494267
who suggested genocide, also your moral outrage doesnt change the facts there are more people living in that region than that region can support with its natural resources, Yemen is literally out of water. When a population exceeds the carrying capacity of its environment a crash is inevitable. The genocide might not be human inflicted
>>46494323
Yes, all problems can be solved with superior air power GI joe.
>they need to be killed off because out foreign policy directly created the current problem.
>>46494329
>who suggested genocide, also your moral outrage
Why the fuck did you take "I agree, genocide likes a wonderful plan." seriously?
>>46494349
History created this fucking problem, and leaving it alone isn't going to solve it.
>Yes, all problems can be solved with superior air power GI joe.
You're damn right it can, faggot. Although, it's generally more of a resolution of a problem, than a proper solution.
>>46494363
because you cant fucking tell on this god damn site with phrases like that 90% of the time, try being a bit more obvious go damn
>>46494379
The middle east was en route to solving it's own problems you ignorant yank. Gaddhafi and Saddam were fucking saints compared to ISIS. Your government had to shit over everything and leave europe to deal with the backlash of the problem.
>>46494420
And you chose the best way to deal with the backlash, didn't you?
>just let them ALL in, we don't want to be racist now, do we?
>compared to ISIS
And we're going to keep bombing that fucking desert, killing whatever new wannabe warlords pop up, until either the dunecoons get the idea and get their shit together, or until there is no one else left to kill.
>>46494454
No, you are going to keep bombing the desert while your tax dollars prop up your precious saudi allies who live like kings and assuage their philandering ways by backing more extreme jihadi groups all the time.
But hey, it keeps lockheed martin and general electric in business right?
>let them all in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees
If you sign the documents you are morally bound to take them in. You think most euros want the snackbars in?
>>46494508
>implying we shouldn't bomb the Saudis too
>implying defense spending is bad
>"muh ebul military-industrial complex aboohoohoo"
>If you sign the documents you are morally bound to take them in. You think most euros want the snackbars in?
You are LAWFULLY bound to take them in, not morally, and it's your fault for signing them in the first place.
Let me ask you this; who is going to actually enforce the law? There's no global super-state that can step in and force your irrelevant non-country to do anything.
>inb4 the UN
>>46494573
But...the Saudis are pretty little kings that just wanna play with the toys we sell them and pretend to be soldiers! Bombing them would be mean. :^(
>>46494597
>implying I'm a cuckservative
That entire fucking desert deserves to be glassed, no exceptions.
Except for Israel, of course, since they're the only civilized nation in the region.
>>46494573
>its only a piece of paper
well then. Might as well scrap the whole UN and start selling arms so they the undesirables kill each other.
>>46494625
>lets glass the cradle of civilization because they crashed a couple of planes with no survivors.
Fellblades
>>46494665
>its only a piece of paper
Are you surprised by this? All law is just a piece of paper until its backed up by force, and no one cares enough to actually enforce these treaties besides the actually important ones. You're incredibly naive if you attach any more importance than that to them.
>Might as well scrap the whole UN
Good, it's an abysmal failure.
>lets glass the cradle of civilization because they crashed a couple of planes with no survivors.
There hasn't been civilization in that region since the Ottomans, and even that's debatable.
>>46494758
>every law is useless until it is backed by force
And so we can select and choose which laws we choose to obey and only follow the laws that we deem unsavory when there is a knife at our throat? That laws are sacrosanct because they are backed up by the force of violence?
>might as well scrap the UN
Yeah fuck the UNHRC, UNICEF, WHO et al. We can blow our problems up with C4 and clap all the way to the mall.
>there hasn't been civilization in there.
What an american thing to say. Uncle sam gets to decide what civilization is because he has the largest stick in the yard.
>>46494758
>Are you surprised by this? All law is just a piece of paper until its backed up by force, and no one cares enough to actually enforce these treaties besides the actually important ones. You're incredibly naive if you attach any more importance than that to them.
The Law?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9rjGTOA2NA
>>46494828
>That laws are sacrosanct because they are backed up by the force of violence?
If you think anything otherwise than you really are an idiot; all law is based upon just coercion, nothing more and nothing less.
Of course, this only applies within nations; the world stage is anarchy, despite the UN's best efforts.
>""human rights""
The other two you listed are okay, but come on dude, you're smarter than this.
>What an american thing to say. Uncle sam gets to decide what civilization is because he has the largest stick in the yard.
Ok, make me an argument as to why the sandniggers constitute civilization.And yes, we do; you can call us out on it when you have your own stick
>>46482662
>40k
>build a tank without side sponsons
>and an angry tank commander waving a sword around out the top hatch
NIGGA WHAT FUCKING SETTING DO YOU THINK THIS IS
>>46494881
And that is what I meant by important law, law that people enforce through force. A law without anyone to back it is nothing more than a suggestion of proper conduct, and can scarcely be called a law in the first place.
>>46494086
Well, duh, what the hell else would I have turned it into?
It's just a shame there's no rules for the Ragnarok, so I decided to proxy it as a Demolisher instead.
>>46494893
>Ok, make me an argument as to why the sandniggers constitute civilization.
They have their own laws and customs
They have their own cities and towns
They try and build better lives for themselves same as you. Syria would be considered a civilized place 10 years ago. It had all the trappings and paraphernalia you associate with it.
>might makes right
so why doesn't the US government tell the people of your country that they are invading or bombing this middle eastern shithole because they want to, why do you have to hide behind lies and half truths like
>chemical weapons
>WMDs
Face it, the average human being has his stomach churned at seeing images like this. They don't wish to see the effects of their war however righteous they may believe their cause to be.
No matter how much you may convince yourself that the person ahead of you is a foe who is hellbent on the destruction of your kind, at the end of the day, he is just a bloke doing a job, same as you.
Also I agree that terrorists need to be treated extremely harshly and the idea of human rights need to be thrown out for them.
>>46495004
>They have their own laws and customs
>They have their own cities and towns
>They try and build better lives for themselves same as you. Syria would be considered a civilized place 10 years ago. It had all the trappings and paraphernalia you associate with it.
And their laws and customs are utterly and irrevocably incompatible with western civilization, as of now. What ever civility they have is thrown out the window when their religious view point cannot coexist with the west.
>so why doesn't the US government tell the people of your country that they are invading or bombing this middle eastern shithole because they want to, why do you have to hide behind lies and half truths like
Because our entire government is a population-pandering reality TV show, and every day it reminds me of the failures and problems with (classical) liberalism, democracy, and republicanism.
>No matter how much you may convince yourself that the person ahead of you is a foe who is hellbent on the destruction of your kind, at the end of the day, he is just a bloke doing a job, same as you.
Be that as it may, he still supports the guy who IS hellbent on killing me and my nation. He still supports the same religion, he still supports the same customs and practices and ideas.
"Moderate" Muslims are to terrorists as "civilians" are to an army during total war.
There can be no reconciliation between the west and Islam unless one or the other fundamentally changes what it is, and I'd prefer Islam to change than the west.
>>46488968
Also, Russian tank crews loved the Sherman because it was like the Cadillac of tanks. Roomy hull, leather seats, and the engine doesn't exhaust into the crew space.
>>46495103
>And their laws and customs are utterly and irrevocably incompatible with western civilization, as of now. What ever civility they have is thrown out the window when their religious view point cannot coexist with the west.
Which one?
Those middle eastern countries had personal laws that were islamic but common law otherwise.
>because the government is hiding the truth
>the truth that every muslim is a wolf in sheep's clothing that is going to eat our civilization from the inside out.
>even though one of the primary reasons they immigrate is to get away from the oppressive islamic personal laws in their countries.
>he still supports the guy who is
No, he is just doing his job so that he can go to his hovel, fuck his burkha wearing wife and go to bed. Same as the average joe. Yes his life is objectively shittier because he has a totalitarian government that is blowing hot air into his ass, but he is just trying to get by another day.
>every muslim is a terrorist supporter.
oh boy, they must support the people who drag away their family members and execute them for farting in the direction of mecca during the azan.
>>46495123
Later era shermans were pretty great for crew comfort and safety. Easy 8 for the win.
>>46493652
well iolence followed by just deserts lead to WWII
>>46495212
>>even though one of the primary reasons they immigrate is to get away from the oppressive islamic personal laws in their countries.
>>every muslim is a terrorist supporter.
Just like how all those poor, fleeing refugees don't try to enact Sharia law in Europe :^)
Just like how around 800 million Muslim agree with Sharia law to some extent :^)
I don't want to kill them all if we can avoid it, I would consider it a moral imperative to civilized them, but Islam is the single greatest threat to the west since Hitler and Stalin.
>>46494110
>No, you should never have let them in to your countries in the first place you retard.
We have treaties that say we have to let them in.
"I rather lose land than principles" - Can you guess who said that?
>>46495267
Your principles include having your women raped and cities destroyed by uncivilized savages?
By the time the refugees are done with Europe, you'll have neither land nor principles.
>>46495263
>Just like how all those poor, fleeing refugees don't try to enact Sharia law in Europe :^)
yes. They are going to turn the notre dame into a mosque my american friend
Most of them are going to assimilate or they are going to go back to their burned out hovels.
>800 million muslims agree with sharia law to some extent
>practicing religious people agree with religious laws to some extent
Hold the presses, Anonymous had discovered the threat to western civilization.
Oh well guess the jews following their own laws for personal matters means that they are create the next kingdom of david too I suppose.
>>46495295
So you
>don't understand how principles work
>Think you have information that you don't have
>Are one of these apocalyptical cultists (Probably thought Ebola's gonna kill Africa, the economic crisis will destroy the world, the crimnea crisis will start WWIII etc.)
Yep, you visit /pol/
>>46495295
>EUROPE IS BURNING
>meanwhile detroit is a meme.
>>46493865
If you stil have it, let me know. I have seven or eight institutions worth of access.
>>46495320
>yes. They are going to turn the notre dame into a mosque my american friend
Just like they did with the Haga Sophia, my European friend.
>Most of them are going to assimilate or they are going to go back to their burned out hovels.
Yeah, good luck with that.
>Hold the presses, Anonymous had discovered the threat to western civilization.
Yes, especially since those religious laws are incompatible with western civilization.
>Oh well guess the jews following their own laws for personal matters means that they are create the next kingdom of david too I suppose.
Oy vey you dirty goy, it's called Zion.
>>46495334
>don't understand how principles work
I think your principles are fucking shit and will lead to your destruction.
>Think you have information that you don't have
I don't know senpai, all those rapes in Sweden and the Paris and Brussels are fairly public knowledge.
>Are one of these apocalyptical cultists (Probably thought Ebola's gonna kill Africa, the economic crisis will destroy the world, the crimnea crisis will start WWIII etc.)
Believe it or not, I don't want a HAPPENING to start.
>>46495348
It's a very sad meme and a very sad tale, anon. I wish we'd fix Detroit if we could.
>>46495367
>I think your principles are fucking shit and will lead to your destruction.
well you're wrong and they won't.
>I don't know senpai, all those rapes in Sweden and the Paris and Brussels are fairly public knowledge.
which are in no way substantial as long as you don't try your darndest to interprate them as such.
>Believe it or not, I don't want a HAPPENING to start.
Oh you are waiting on the edge of your seat.
East Germany let the communists in! MILLIONS of them! European capitalism will perish.
The hungarian revolution let the horselords in! A MILLION of them! Austria will perish.
The Serbian war let - oh no - muslims in - Hundreds of thousands of them! Europe will perish.
You've been wrong all the way, and you'll be in the future
>>46495367
>american attempts history.
Yes and Constantinople was a dead city by then. Despite what /pol/ tells you europe is not going to bend over and die any time soon.
>They are not going to assimilate
>they are going to create a sharia state and you are going have slave markets opening in europe.
>only the land of the free will remain free while our government creates the largest snooping force in history
>we will defend our freedoms with our semi automatic weaponry and untrained militias
>>46495406
>well you're wrong and they won't.
We'll see in a decade or too, senpai.
>which are in no way substantial as long as you don't try your darndest to interprate them as such.
>"It's not as bad as it looks so long as you don't actively look at and interpret the statistics!"
Holy shit, are actually willfully denying reality? "no way substantial" my ass, you're blind!
>Oh you are waiting on the edge of your seat.
I'm not, though. I'd prefer if a HABBENING didn't HABBEN at all.
>East Germany let the communists in! MILLIONS of them! European capitalism will perish.
The communists forced their way in, and European DemSocialism isn't looking so hot either mi familia.
>You've been wrong all the way, and you'll be in the future
I love this "you're on the wrong side of history" meme.
>>46482662
Without opening this thread, can someone tell me how we when from "tonks in 40k" to "DEATH TO ISLAM"?
>>46495447
>We'll see in a decade or too, senpai.
exactly. You are falsifyably wrong.
>>46495437
>Yes and Constantinople was a dead city by then.
And yet they still defiled it.
>Despite what /pol/ tells you europe is not going to bend over and die any time soon.
It's already on life support and the vultures are coming in; I sincerely hope for your sake that you guys get your shit together right quick.
>>they are going to create a sharia state and you are going have slave markets opening in europe.
No, but they will be raping your daughters.
O wait.
They're already doing that.
>>46495457
Faggoty europeans being snooty and me being unable to contain my autism.
>>46495472
I'd love to know where you got the power to see the future, anon.
>Europe gets its shit together, stops bowing to "refugees" and actually kicks out the ones causing trouble or who refuse to integrate
>SEE THE MUSLIMS DIDN'T DESTROY US EUROPE STRONK
Good job, friendo.
>>46495103
>"Moderate" Muslims are to terrorists as "civilians" are to an army during total war.
Pure attrition warfare isn't the sign of a good military strategist, it is the desperation of a failing commander.
>There can be no reconciliation between the west and Islam unless one or the other fundamentally changes what it is, and I'd prefer Islam to change than the west.
Or your brainless bullshit causes the most worthless genocide. If your first instinct to societal politics is talking about total war and overkill, you have already committed Westmoreland's mistake.
I don't give a shit about the other person's peacenik shit, the UN, laws, or the terrorists. Your calls for a conventional war will only serve to alienate and drive people who didn't care to arms because of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will create your own enemies, as it has happened before, and your efforts will do nothing to turn Arab decisions.
>>46495457
We had a discussion about german tanks and how tacticool they looked
Then someone mentioned that the germans and japanese didn't have the industrial base to compete
Someone made a rather interesting argument about the nukes not being that necessary.
I posited that civilian deaths are not a good thing.
Then someone mentioned that there are no civilians in total war.
Then I mentioned that by that yardstick the germans and japs shouldn't be tried for war crimes against civvies because total war.
Then some americlap got butthurt that he has no history to call his own and wants to race war the muslims now and shows his characteristic geographical skill by forgetting that most muslims live not in the middle east but in SE Asia and the indian subcontinent.
>>46495493
>I'd love to know where you got the power to see the future, anon.
>>Europe gets its shit together, stops bowing to "refugees" and actually kicks out the ones causing trouble or who refuse to integrate
>>SEE THE MUSLIMS DIDN'T DESTROY US EUROPE STRONK
>Good job, friendo.
>This just proves the tendency of world history towards a politerian revolution!
>>46495493
>they defiled it
by turning it into the capital of one of the most powerful empires in the world?
>europe is on life support
>you guys are all gonna die tomorrow.
>your daughters are being raped
And the police handle it and if the muslims cry rayciss there is a public backlash against them. Does your mind not comprehend anything that everything that is not solved with explosions and violence is impure or not effective?
>>46495507
also I agree with this. That anon's solution is fighting fire by pouring petrol on it because it is a liquid.
>>46488166
>built out of steel and low grade ceramite
Sauce please.
Because, for example, IA Vol. 2 says it's plasteel and ceramite. Which is also the same stuff terminator armour is made out of. Also, if 200mm of steel and low grade ceramite is AV14, what the fuck are all the other Imperial tanks doing?
>>46488230
>lel trakter may-may
Why don't we just get Russia to annex the Middle East? Than, won't have to worry about the Middle East anymore, because the only thing there'll be is more Russia. Problem solved!
>>46495578
well the last time that happened we got rambo 3.
I couldn't understand what stallone was saying so it was all a waste. And now he is too old for rambo 5.
>>46495507
>Pure attrition warfare isn't the sign of a good military strategist, it is the desperation of a failing commander.
This isn't a normal war between nations, anon, it is a conflict between to very diferent models of civilization and civility itself.
>Your calls for a conventional war will only serve to alienate and drive people who didn't care to arms because of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will create your own enemies, as it has happened before, and your efforts will do nothing to turn Arab decisions.
And they would have supported the people in arms already regardless.
>>46495513
>Then some americlap got butthurt that he has no history to call his own
Nice meme lad, that one actually hurt :^)
>skill by forgetting that most muslims live not in the middle east but in SE Asia and the indian subcontinent.
And they're not the ones killing us now are they? The chinks keep them in check for the most part.
>>46495528
It shows that you're an ass-retarded nigger who always claims he's right bereft of any historical context or evidence.
>And the police handle it and if the muslims cry rayciss there is a public backlash against them.
Really, I could have sworn there was an epidemic of ragheads getting away with rape and murder and then being let off scott free after only a few years, specifically due to cries of "dass rayciss".
>that everything that is not solved with explosions and violence is impure or not effective?
This particular situation can only be solved with violence, don't put words in my mouth and make me out to be some skin-headed thug who beats anyone who steps on my shoes.
>>46495578
Russia would probably do a better job of it than the west for fucks sake! China probably would too!
>>46495531
>by turning it into the capital of one of the most powerful empires in the world?
The Hagia Sophia you dunce, not Constantinople.
>>46488166
>This is what WoT players actually believe
>>46487999
No, it's much simpler than that. The forgeworld guys are huge WW2 nerds so they took the best tank armour of WW2 and doubled it for their baseline - not realizing that modern tank armour has improved enormously since then.
>>46495586
>this is a war between civilizations themselves.
Doesn't look like much of a war when you wreck their shit, leave them homeless and starving and expect them to pick up the slack.
And this sort of rhetoric was heard by colonial nations who were engaging in dickwaving and wanted colonies.
>And they're not the ones killing us now are they? The chinks keep them in check for the most part.
Those countries are largely aligned to America for the most part, even the ones that literally kept OBL in a villa next to their country's military academy.
>Really, I could have sworn there was an epidemic of ragheads getting away with rape and murder and then being let off scott free after only a few years, specifically due to cries of "dass rayciss".
The backlash was against the police for not doing their job and letting the bastards get away scott free. But I suppose /pol/ and fox news told you otherwise.
>they defiled the hagia sophia
and the predominantly muslim country of turkey has restored those frescoes.
>>46489699
Yeah. Left and right you can see engineers coming up with nice design ideas and than the Party gets started and everything goes to shit. I mean, there's documentations well into the war where field officers are requesting more short 75mm stugs but the factories have to make more überweapons to please der führer, rather than provide the army what they need.
Even if on paper the short 75mm isn't the most amazing anti-tank weapon ever, you have to remember that vast majority of the time you'd be facing infantry, trenches, bunkers and emplacements, something in which the 75mm with HE is far better at than a hypervelocity 128mm super AT cannon. Same reason why the 75mm Sherman kept on being used, because it was good enough to deal with many threats.
>>46490018
I'm pretty sure post-war records showed that Germany was nowhere near developing a bomb and the destruction of the heavy water plant did not affect the development that much.
They were more about making dirty bomb. As I remember, they had plans to use a super jet bomber to bomb New York and use dirty bombs instead of proper nukes.
>This isn't a normal war between nations, anon, it is a conflict between to very diferent models of civilization and civility itself.
Your 'conflict of civilization' is a political war. That's what counterinsurgencies are. This isn't new.
>And they would have supported the people in arms already regardless.
I highly doubt that. Arab ethnicities, religious denominations, philosophical identities, social classes, and political schools are fractious. Giving them a common threat will cause them to band together with their peers and serve to illustrate none of your intentions regarding 'civilization.'
>>46495664
All of them wear towels on their heads and blow themselves up. Thats all the middle east is, except our greatest ally.
>>46495648
>Doesn't look like much of a war when you wreck their shit, leave them homeless and starving and expect them to pick up the slack.
>And this sort of rhetoric was heard by colonial nations who were engaging in dickwaving and wanted colonies.
And then bomb our cities and kill our people, and expect us to not retaliate :^)
>implying colonialism was bad
>"aligned"
>>46495664
And why shouldn't this insurgency be stamped out?
As much as they hate each other, they will always hate the west, and don't think them putting their petty tribal feuds asides fundamentally changed that.
Uh, has anyone forgotten that the original Muslim doctrine was to "defend people of the book" (Christfags, Da Joos, Other Muslims)?
If they just kept doing that and the Christfags weren't such faggots and the Jews quick kicking down Palistine, the Middle East wouldn't even have any real conflict.
This isn't a matter of religion; this is a matter of people being incapable of following it and then using the secular bits of their culture to disctract from that fact.
>>46495684
>And then bomb our cities and kill our people, and expect us to not retaliate :^)
>we retaliated by invading the wrong country and setting fire to the entire middle east.
>it was all part of the plan. We were planning to genocide you anyway
>only we failed miserably at that and let you shit all over europe instead.
>I crie everytiem my mahreen bruda died when he got shanked in the street by a mooselimb
>fucking france you surrender monkeys, what do you know about losing men.
>colonialism is good.
>see all the infrastructure we made to steal your shit from your country? Aren't you glad we made that?
>>46495704
No, it was always more complicated than that.
Basically it was more of a recommended guideline in the ways it was followed. The early arab conquest was largely ethnocentric and they discouraged converts. The later turkic converts were bigger on the whole
>convert of die infidel
thing.
>>46495712
>yuropoor being THIS mad
kek
>see all the infrastructure we made to steal your shit from your country? Aren't you glad we made that?
>infrastructure that they now use (and wouldn't have had in the first place) and subsequently let fall into disrepair and disuse because they killed or drove out all the white people who knew and could teach them how it worked
>>46483599
>kv-2
>not an AVRE
HERESY
>>46495704
>muzzie dindu nuffinink wrong!
No.
>>46495737
>yuropoor is mad that they don't eat this much sugar laden food, clap this loudly at the flag and shoot this many bullets from their gun.
>we totally helped you by leaving your country as a net producer of raw goods and stealing your stuff. See weren't you better off then?
Well seeing as the crown jewel of the british empire is doing better post independence than they were doing before, I guess whitey is really not necessary for running a country.
>>46493912
hey peter you know how the russians have been saving stell by sloping their armor since before the goddamn war even started?
yes hans ?
and how we had so much trouble penetrating their tanks only a godamn aa gun could get trough it until we finally slapped a way to big gun on our already outdated as fuck chassis that we're gonna keep for 3 more years ?
ja i understand hans , so what are you saying ?
lets not do that untill 1944!
>>46495457
/pol/ woke up.
>>46493912
>Besides German tanks look like shit.
opinion discarded.
>>46495765
don't worry, they will save mother europa by shitposting on /tg/
>>46495758
Nice memes, dude.
>>we totally helped you by leaving your country as a net producer of raw goods and stealing your stuff. See weren't you better off then?
>Stealing your stuff
They had nothing to steal, and the stuff that could be stolen they had no way of utilizing regardless.
>>46495457
Rule 2 of Godwin's Law: any thread mentioning Germany or a product readily identified as German will eventually lead to nazis, which leads to /pol/.
The irony that the Muslims loathe the Jews just as much is lost on them.
>>46495758
>he says, while shitting on the streets
>>46495781
>The enemy of my enemy is my friend
I actually love the Jews desu.
>>46495656
read somewhere that by the end of the war allied tanks crews REALLY prefered the short 75 over the 17 pdr (or 76) because they were almost always fighting against infantry and stationary at guns which the 75mm HE was far better at killing than the high velocity 76/17pdr
>>46495684
>And why shouldn't this insurgency be stamped out?
You're not suggesting a counter-insurgency.
COIN requires understanding and operating on the political field, leveraging your assets to influence the general population in order to deny the enemy legitimacy and comfort.
Because you are convinced that your side is unable to influence the opinion of the masses, you have automatically failed. Firepower alone will never solve this.
>>46495785
Well memed. You totally destroyed my argument. Who cares about boring things like facts or statistics when you have memes.
"Let's fight a war of attrition outnumbered 4 to 1! That'll show 'em!"
Yeah, that didn't work when the Germans tried it either.
>>46495806
A war of attrition were we have a superior technological advantage, but are at the same time trying to NOT kill or destroy the enemy's infrastructure.
>>46495774
>they had nothing to steal
then the trading companies wouldn't have invested in infrastructure to transport the things back to europe.
>they can't use it, so we better take it anyway.
Erhm, what did Greece do to to solve this? Didn't they just impress the locals with martial feats to get them to give up their positions of power to this awesome charismatic dude?
What we need is an awesome charismatic dude.
>>46495704
>"defend people of the book"
>by liberating them from their own rulers and making them pay a submission tax !
ok caliph it's time to stop posting
>>46495831
what?
>>46495805
>Who cares about boring things like facts or statistics
>he says while ignoring facts and statistics
>>46495830
They can't own stuff if they can't use or procure the stuff.
>>46495835
It's all a lost cause, don't even bother.
>>46495831
Go to bed, [s4s].
>>46495843
what facts and statistics?
The fact that india's HDI indices have grown remarkably since the british government left?
Oh wait you are going to post those choice photos of retarded peasants throwing half burned bodies into the river or the ebin meme image that shows 47% of indians crap out in the open, thus proving that India was better off under the british.
>>46495834
Yes, because the byzantines were paragons of virtue and didn't oppress their coptic christian subjects at all. :^)
>>46495870
>what facts and statistics?
>The fact that india's HDI indices have grown remarkably since the british government left?
Is this going to be another "India is superpower by 2020" meme?
>>46495870
>what facts and statistics?
That people shit on the streets. Or are you denying this fact?
Also, wow, a country had improved in over 60 years. Who the fuck would have thought that?
>>46488230
>120mm main gun
They're fucking kidding, right? By their own scale drawings it's more like a 500mm howitzer.
>>46495882
yeah, fuck stats we got memes
>>46495887
so? Americans shoot each other.
>>46495924
>Americans shoot each other.
Yes, because they can actually afford guns.
>>46489061
Panther had other problems too.
It would need some extensive maintenence after 150 km, it was not able to to turn its turret and move without a chance of breaking and like the first shermans its solution to being waterproof gave way for more problems (a well placed smoke grenade lit it up).
It did have some good parts (initial armaments, armour and most importantly funk within the tank).
Common census amongs all tanks were that being inside a tank is a deathtrap no matter what tank.
>>46495947
Doesn't mean that shooting each other is a good thing.
but hey, /pol/ must have it's designated shitting thread up now. You can go spam POO IN LOO there and upload it r/4chan for your free internet karma.
>>46495951
later shermans were pretty safe. And so was the churchill. Wet ammo racks and emergency exits do a lot.
I like the soviet poem that says to the commissar that
>ok, we promise that next time we burn inside the tank instead of evacuating.
>>46495924
>unlabeled axis
holy shit REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>46495961
>goes on a "we wuz kings" level of rant
>gets made fun of
>must be /pol/
>>46495924
>fuck stats
>posted graph place India below US and China
>fuck stats
>inb4 "muh projected growth!"
>>46495996
>we wuz kings level rant
>backed up by statistics and data
>you were better off under the raj boy.
>>46496013
>government has socialist tendencies to promote more inclusive growth.
>as a result it is not as fast as an authoritarian government that has a 25 year lead
>therefore the economy is shit.
>projections only matter when they support my hypothesis
>>46493818
Why can chaos never afford to put missiles in ALL their tubes?
>>46496028
half of them launch out little nurglings.
you know what, I am sorry for shitting up this thread, can we take this to /his/?
>>46491328
Underrated
>>46496047
Pretty kawaii, that.
>>46496027
>backed up by statistics and data
You mean your projected stats for future growth that's suppose to take India past the US?
>you were better off under the raj boy.
Do show me a country that hasn't improved in the last 60-70 years.
>>46496075
>you mean your projected stats that show you go past the US
in terms of PPP not in terms of net dollar value, and only if it keeps similar trends. Its a rough estimate but better than the /pol/ tier infographics about toilet witches and toilet worship.
>>46496058
It's not really your fault: this thread was doomed the moment the iron cross appeared in the OP.
No wait, it is your fault, and this is why we cannot have nice things.
>>46496027
Look, retard, nobody's denying that India hasn't grown, but guess what, so has every other country since WW2. It doesn't make them unique. And you eclipsing the US is projected so far into the future that a lot of things can happen in that time. Projections can only be based on current data and there's been a lot of projections that have not turned out the way that was projected.
>>46496096
Some data is better than epic posts like
>toilet worship
screencap that does the rounds on 4chan. But no body cares about facts. We all come here to shitpost, feel better about ourselves and then go back to whatever it was we were doing.
