https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Demon_Hunter_%285e_Class%29
>>46444723
I dunno about balance, having only played a small amount of 53. But sneak attack, warlock spellcasting, and extra attack at level 5. Kinda... insane? Also why blindsense.
Not even close.
It's like if someone minmaxed 3 paths of Warlock, and then made them into their own class with their own features.
Then as a cherry on top, they added in a few features from other classes that they were jealous of.
That shit is broken don't let them run it holy fuck
>>46444723
>https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Demon_Hunter_%285e_Class%29
...Wow. First, don't let them run it. Second, use that to make an enemy for the party to fight to just drive home how bullshit overpowered it is.
Bonus points for making them a whiny JRPG-style protagonist.
>>46444723
He really didnt make it, he just reworked a dnd 3.5 homebrew class that was already bat shit insane.
>>46445491
really? he says he made it himself. and that he ran it trough 10 trusted DMs and players he knows well wich helped to nerf the class A LOT.
>>46444723
Ridiculously broken, absolutely no weaknesses whatsoever besides maybe a smallish hit die. Seems like your player just picked all the best features of other classes and stuck it onto one.
>>46445534
Translation, he ran it through one DM and nine players HE trusts. Not that anyone else does, or should if they'll approve this shit.
If you can, you should get rid of this player if he's already trying to insult your intelligence with this kind of crap.
>>46445534
Yeah, it is a straight rip from a dndwiki 3.5 homebrew that was constantly made fun of here like 6 years ago.
He also probably did not make it, nor run it by anyone. This guy brag about doing all kinds of neat things around the world or getting awards for stuff he did when he was younger, or in his "prime"?
It feels like it's about on par with Valor Bard if you remove the SA. At least I'm not seeing anything at first glance that makes it much better.
>>46445597
not really. he did play a warlock last game wich was absolutely undefeatable (though it was mainly because of me giving him boots of elvenfoot or whatever theyre called and allowing a feat at first level) but he had an ac of 22, wielded 2 longswords and was basicly a great rogue, great fighter, great tank and great magic user. and hex only made things worse.
>>46445534
Wow. Stay away from this guy.
>>46444723
Okay let me break it down for you here as an objective reason why this is bullshit (compared to other classes)
This class claims to be based off of a fighter/rogue hybrid so let's compare what they get compared to fighters/rogues
>Level 0
>Demon Hunter gets: 4 skill proficiencies, 1d8 hit die, weapon proficiency in simple weapons, longswords, rapiers and shortswords, light and medium armour proficiency, thieve's tools and alchemist tools
So compared to the rogue, they get the same amount of skills, hit die, get access to medium armour and alchemist tools and lose hand crossbows. This is not so bad yet as it is sort of an average between rogue and fighter
>Level 1
>Demon Hunter gets: Pact Magic, expertise, sneak attack
Compared to the rogue this is trading thieves' cant for pact magic. Being able to trade a limited language for spell casting? Already ridiculous
>Level 2
>Demon Hunter gets: Cunning action
Fair enough, rogue also gets just cunning action level 2
>Level 3
>Demon Hunter gets: Rune bonding, archetype feature
Every other class gets just their archetype feature yet the Demon Hunter gets their archetype plus rune bonding (one of the archetype features of an Eldritch Knight fighter). Unbalanced. Not only that but the archetypes themselves are ridiculous. The Arcane Devastator practically makes you a warlock, Power Fiend gives you 3 features at once at level 3 (heavy blow being broken as well), and Deathblade giving more useful abilities than the rogues assassin archetype gives
>Level 4
>Demon Hunter gets: Ability score improvement, devil's sight
All other classes just get ability score improvement and yet Demon Hunter gets blindsight as well? Why?
>Level 5
>Demon Hunter gets: Extra attack
Fighter does get extra attack at level 5 but when you combine an extra attack with the rogue's sneak attack, this is obviously extraneous
>Level 6
>Demon Hunter gets: Expertise
This matches the rogue which is fine
I mean it already sounds like you have your decision, based on the title. Why bring it into here if you think it's "bullshit"?
Also I can tell he put some work into it, the tables for sneak attack/spells are modified from their original versions in the phb, as for balance idk... Lets be real here if he really made an "undefeatable" warlock does it matter? Base more on the RP value of the class over A hits B and wrecks because OP. I like the direction he took with the angel, something I haven't seen before in DND. (especially since all the warlock patrons are neutral/evil for the most part)
>>46445949
i kind of said its bullshit because i was pissed at him and i wanted to be funny (tried to be, never said i was) frankly its just that he can be such a powergamer sometimes its annoying. especially since im such a new DM wich makes me easy to exploit since i dont know all the ropes yet.
>>46446023
I mean, you can't hate him because he worked on his character more than the standard player. Is he lacking on the RP department or something? If the gap between his character and the other characters is that large, that probably means that they aren't trying hard enough on their characters, or they are more interested in RP. But if the campaign is more interested in RP, why does it matter what class someone plays?
>>46446149
i guess. the main problem is that he's stealing the limelight from other players. when this guy can kill an owlbear by himself at level 2 then the others feel kind of useless in combat.
>>46446149
I'm not the OP, but this class looks more like he couldn't decide between rogue or bladelock so he just crammed them together without taking nearly enough out
>>46445344
>use that to make an enemy for the party to fight
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
I've been running a homebrew-heavy campaign for the last 3 years or so, and if a player wants to make ANYTHING that they can use, they have to fight it with vanilla shit first.
Before I instituted the Trial by Combat policy, the campaign was so godawfully anti-fun that I was losing a player every other session.
>>46445932
>Level 7
>Demon Hunter gets: Eldritch Boon
Uncomparable to rogue or fighter, but if we compare it to the Eldritch Knight's level 7 war magic feature or the Wizards arcane recovery then maybe this one is okay.
>Level 8
>Demon Hunter gets: Ability score improvement, fiendish resistance
Once again, the Demon Hunter gets something on top of their ability score improvement. Why?
>Level 9
>Demon Hunter gets: archetype feature
So Demon Hunter shares infiltration expert with assassin at level 9 and shares magical ambush with arcane trickster at level 9. They however do get evasion at level 9 instead of improved sneak. You could say that's better, it's hard to say
>Level 10
>Demon Hunter gets: Eldritch strike
This feature essentially can turn your extra attack damage (presumably a 1d6+5) into a 5d10 damage. Compared to rogues ability score improvement this is ridiculous and compared to the Eldritch Knights level 10 feature (also called Eldritch strike which just makes the attacked creature roll at disadvantage against the next spell) it is amazingly powerful. Not only that but this attack scales with levels, at level 15 you're essentially turning your sneak attack (5d6) into 7d10. This is very clearly broken.
I'm going to stop here as it's already clear from the first 10 levels that the Demon Hunter is objectively better than rogue or fighter. It combines the best of their abilities, then throws warlock spellcasting on top for free. I will point out that the Demon Hunter's sneak attack is weaker, but that's a small concession. Tell your friend to fuck off and learn to balance.
It looks like they took multiclassing to a whole new level, sure it seems strong but they also left out a lot of big things from those classes.
IE.
-Warlock Invocations
-Rogue Evasion
-Fighter Multi-attack (above 2)
I kind of like how the class is interchangeable with how you fight based on the archetypes. I felt like 5e should have put a lot more emphasis on archetypes than they did. Basically what I see is the class is pretty baseline, but the archetypes really give it it's strength. The archetypes are like classes of their own, but in return he took away from the base class abilities. Dunno but I like this.
>>46446265
This feature essentially can turn your extra attack damage (presumably a 1d6+5) into a 5d10 damage.
I read this part and facepalmed, then read it in the class and noticed you missed a big part of it. It takes a full spell slot to do it. So lets compare a fireball with this at the same level.
5d10 single target damage
Avg Damage = 27.5
OR
10d6 aoe damage (fireball level 5)
Avg Damage = 35
Seems pretty fair to me.
>>46446265
I wouldn't say eldritch boon is okay. With 20 charisma that's an extra 5 spells per short rest with negligible cost. The closest comparison is the level 20 warlock feature which can really only be done by taking a minute and once per long rest
This thing is just absurdly poorly designed
All of the points about this are fine; it is pretty OP.
Possible Solution: Make him cursed and hunted by demons. He can't sleep because of nightmares and so is always fatigued, he gets penalties on luck, things go wrong,
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKTuSXca4zg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfxhdITTbys
Maybe whenever he uses his power there is a chance he perils like in Rogue Trader, or something stalks him.
>>46445573
THIS
I had a player that was always pushing for third party and homebrew shit when I was running pathfinder, (being the forever dm they forced me to switch to pathfinder, a system I had never even seen before) for the class options.
My player immediately min-maxed and kept sneaking in third party traits feats and spells, abusing my lack of familiarity with the system.
He would take me aside after each session and coach me on how in pathfinder npc's needed to be weak for some global system of xp bullshit. Despite the weak encounters I threw at the party (Which he would always do everyone's job for them) He constantly complained that the monsters/npc's we were fighting were unrealistically powerful.
He eventually got bored (wonder why?) and decided the only proper thing to do was to ruin it for the rest of the players, challenging each of them to single combat to show them "how weak they were"-(how broken he was).
After single handedly killing an army encampment and one of the major npc's he decides he wants to kill the party, I had at this point gotten familiar with third party bullshit and called him out when he tried to use such a spell (I had explicitly forbade him from using them). He yelled and ranted about equality and my favoritism of the party then had his character kill himself and stormed out.
Moral of the story. If you character is trying to abuse your familiarity with a system by imposing broken shit. Fucking kick them out before the cancer grows.
As a long time DM, nothing makes me happier than hearing, "Well, what does the party need, and what kind of tone and setting are you going for?" when I invite someone to play. This guy sounds like cancer.
>>46446486
First of all, this class is supposed to be compared to Fighters and Rogues and Warlocks, you can't pull Wizard abilities into it. Closest comparison would be Warlock's Blight at level 5 which is 9d8 (average 40.5 damage). The Demon Hunter with Eldritch strike deals their weapon damage (maybe 1d8+5, perhaps more if they have a better weapon) plus the Eldritch strike damage (5d10) for an average of 37 which is lower than blight. However if we remember that this is an attack, the Demon Hunter has the potential to also have the duelling feature making it 39 damage which is practically the same but works better against low AC targets and does massively more damage against fiends.
Then at level 15, it still uses a 5th level spell slot (so Blight's damage would not have changed) yet this feature does an extra 2d10 (average 11 damage), plus since this is only using a bonus action now, you have access to your other attack adding an extra 1d8+5 (average 9.5 damage).
Plus if we look at the other features that the Demon Hunter gets such as assassinate and relentless assault, then you have the potential to just completely destroy enemies whereas comparatively, the other classes do not get such amazing synergy.
>>46447139
apparently its not 37. your off by 10 points.
>>46447139
You could limit it so that many abilities only work on fiends. It sounds to me like a ranger with a different spell set and a focus on fiend type enemies would be enough.
>>46447512
>At 10th level, you can use your action to consume a spell slot of your current level. Make a basic weapon attack against an enemy. A hit deals an additional 5d10 force damage, or half this on a miss.
Assuming they're using a longsword (1d8+STR MOD) plus 5d10 force damage from Eldritch strike. Averages mean 4.5 (1d8)+ STR MOD (which we'll assume to be 5) plus 27.5 (5d10). 27.5+5+4.5=37
>>46446298
Okay I don't know why I'm sperging out so hard about this class, it's probably just me venting my frustrations about my own bullshit homebrew powergamer but
>Rogue Evasion
They do get evasion if they take the Power Fiend archetype (even though its apparently meant to emulate a fighter). They may not get uncanny dodge but they do get Fiendish resistance for no tradeoff.
>Fighter Multi-attack (above 2)
This may seem like a big thing but it's actually negligible if they also took the Power Fiend archetype because of Heavy Blow (You can use sneak attack with any melee attack made against a target that has none of your allies adjacent to it.)
This pretty much means you always get sneak attack damage unless you're using ranged attacks (which you probably won't since you don't have proficiency in ranged weapons anyway). That means that by level 5 you get two weapon attacks plus an extra 2d6 whenever you want, you practically get a third attack way earlier than Fighters, and you don't even have to roll an attack for that damage, so long as you get at least one attack off then you get a bonus. By Level 11, you get an extra 4d6 which should far outclass an extra attack from a Fighter.
add some serious negative effects to it, since he has to make a pact with a demon or other evil creature, make it a REQUIREMENT to be aligned evil, and make him extremely vulnerable to clerical spells, and weakened on hallowed ground
Okay one last fucking sperg out here. This is how broken this class is. At Level 18, the Demon Hunter gets Slayer which lets it instantly crit on its Eldritch Strike and if it does more than half the enemies max hit points, then the enemy must make a con saving throw, instantly dying if it fails or stunned if it saves. This is better than the assassain rogue's Death Strike which just doubles your damage against a surprised creature.
Furthermore, the Demon Hunter at level 20 gets Metamorphosis, giving it a passive fear aura as well as an extra 2d10 PER ATTACK. And this mode lasts for a full hour and recovers every short rest.
I did some math to compare a level 20 Demon Hunter to a level 20 Fighter. I used averages so 1d6=3.5 damage, 1d8=4.5, 1d10=5.5 and 1d12=6.5. Furthermore I'm going to assume that both of them are wielding +3 longswords (1d8), have max STR MOD and have picked duellist (+2 to damage rolls) as their feature (making each attack add 10 damage to their roll). I'm going to assume Demon Hunter is a Power Fiend and the Fighter is a Battle Master, neither of them score crits and they hit every attack.
So the Fighter is simple. Popping an action surge and hitting on all 8 attacks and burning all 6 of his superiority dice to add maneuver damage is
>8d8+8x10+6x6.5=155 damage
That's a lot but it takes pretty much everything the Fighter has to throw out.
>>46448997
The Demon Hunter on the other hand, gets the following and hold your breath cause it's long: , 3 basic melee attacks (each of which gets an additional 2d10), slayer (a crit on an eldritch strike which is composed of 7d10 plus a basic melee attack which gets the 2d10 as well) sneak attack (which is practically guaranteed with heavy blow and adds 7d6). Then he pops an relentless assault and gets another 3 melee attacks and can do another eldritch strike because eldritch strike is a bonus action. That is:
>(3d8+3x10+6d10)x2+(14d10+2d8+10+4d10)+7d6+7d10+1d8+10+2d10add 9d10 if against a fiend. This comes to 359 damage409 if a fiend. The Slayer damage alone deals 118 damage so anything with >236 damage pretty much has a coin flip to be instantly killed.
For reference, an Ancient Red Dragon has 546 health. A Pit fiend has 300.
>>46445689
Wait. What?
How the hell did he get an AC of 22 whilst dual wielding and being a Warlock? Even if he multi-classed to get plate and had the dual wielder feat that's still only 18+1.
I'm sensing that you might be getting played mate.
>>46449237
Also boots of elvenkind shouldn't have made him a great rogue. If he was using longswords his Dex couldn't have been that great (not finesse weapons) and advantage on stealth for sound is good and all, but that's what guard dogs with good noses are for. Not to mention if that AC is anywhere close to accurate he was using heavy armor, so all it would have done was cancel out the disadvantage to sneaking that would have given him.
>>46444723
This player is insulting you with how bad they are playing you. Don't even give them the courtesy of an explanation, kick them out and never look back.
However, in the case that they are a friend... they are not.
>>46445344
Goddamn. That is so smart and simple that I feel like an even bigger retard than normal for not thinking of it. Thanks mate.
>>46446822
To be fair, its not that hard to break Pathflounder considering the whole think was broken and imbalanced right at Core.
>>46448997
>>46449034
Your sperging is appreciated Anon.
Tell us this, oh mighty Grognard. Would this make a great "Fuck you" boss battle?
>>46449706
Please, please tell us if this player bitches about the encounter being unfair or overpowered. /tg/ needs another good story.
>>46450459
It would make a great 'fuck you', but not a particularly great boss battle unless you're ending the campaign. This thing is basically killing a player each round unless they're lucky on initiative, in which case they probably take it apart on the first round what with only the 1d8+con per level.
>>46445344
>>46446260
I also do that.
When you want to present new content, use mercenaries (both sides) and enemies before opening it to players.
If everyone believes is fair enough and fun to fight against or with it, you can open that shit for them to use.
Comparing classes is fine, but stop comparing them against weaker classes like the rogue or fighter, and compare them with the stronger classes like the wizard or cleric.
Paladin is basically the best designed class in DnD5e (with the exception of Aura of Protection which might be slightly too good).
Just look at the class, and go "is this stronger than a paladin?"
If so, it is OP.
"Is it stronger than a tempest cleric?"
If so, it shouldn't be allowed at all.
>>46452477
Well considering that at level 20 the Demon Hunter also gets access to level 9 spells and has like 2d10+1d8+damage bonuses per attack, I'd say a Demon Hunter is still stronger than the Cleric and Paladin.
>>46444723
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Demon_Hunter_(5e_Class)
lol
From the sound of it it's just a DND version of WoWs Demon hunter.
>>46454347
>A DnD version of a WoW class.
Gee, I wonder what's wrong.
>that class
Ow the edge
>>46454417
Is there a DnD class that Gouges out there eyes and wield twin warglaives to hunt demons?, Not defending WoW, Legitimately asking.
OP this is not even close to balanced. It has most of the advantages of Rogue and Fighter (Sneak Attack, Evasion, Expertise, Cunning Action, Extra Attack, Weapon Bond), then gets Pact Magic on top (and with the archetype, gets it better than a Warlock). And Eldritch Strike is basically a Smite that does static damage in exchange for burning a pact magic slot - and still deals half damage even if you miss (and it's Force damage too, which I can only assume he went for because it's the least resisted damage type, Radiant/Necrotic would have been more thematically appropriate).
Deathblade archetype gives the good parts of Assassin and Mastermind together.
Power Fiend gives Action Surge, Extra Attack (2), a Fighting Style, and the good part of Swashbuckler on top.
Arcane Devastator gives better Pact Magic than an actual Warlock, free EB invocations and the good Tomelock stuff, plus the War Caster feat for free and even more EB buffs.
So it has the good features of Rogue, Fighter, Warlock and Paladin. Oh, and it gets Blindsight, Devil's Sight and Fire Resist too, just because. With basically no downsides other than D8 hp.
As others have said, smack your player upside the head and then make a DMPC that uses this class to follow him around for a session or two and steal all his limelight, just to prove a point.
>>46454459
Dual wielding is garbage, but you can make a melee spellcaster with magical sight pretty easily with a Fiend / Tome Pact Warlock
