Which of the fallen Primarchs would have made the biggest difference had they stayed loyal? excluding the ones that went traitor to survive because the lore would have them fucked over anyway.
>>46434689
PowerTurbo maybe? He could have fortified the Imperium
>>46434689
Perturabo, maybe. A massive fucking Legion(close to 200,000 marines), ridiculous firepower and a brilliant strategic mind. Not to mention that He was one of the most physically powerful Primarchs.
Without the Iron Warriors to do the hard work of preparing for and operating a protracted siege, the Battle of Terra might have been a much different affair.
>>46434799
This.
Fulgrim might also be a contender. If he hadn't turned Ferrus wouldn't have been baited onto Isstvan V, meaning the Dropsite Massacre would hace gone down differently.
On the other hand, which traitor was the least influential? I'm thinking Curze, maybe Mortarion.
>>46434689
> Magnus is on Terra before the siege arrives
> Rips the traitor fleet apart as they exit the Warp
>>46434794
>>46434799
>>46434879
>excluding the ones that went traitor to survive because the lore would have them fucked over anyway.
I don't think he's capable of that, either. He was a powerful psyker but a fleet with the protection of chaos would be a bit of an askBesides. he would have been more useful sitting in the golden throne, just as planned.
>>46434689
Horus
>>46434977
Not necessarily. Good, strong legion, but if the others still fell then they would be significantly less useful in a defensive roll. Horus didn't really do defense.
That being said, without the say-so of the Warmaster to screw with other loyalist legions, maybe they wouldn't have been caught so flat-footed.
>>46435083
Without Horus to keep the whole shebang together, the Loyalists would have just rallied under the Warmaster and rolled up the traitor legions one by one in a 10 on 1 gangbang. Not to mention a few of the traitors went that way specifically because of Horus, so it'd probably be more like 14-4 or so.
>>46434873
I'd say mortarion. NL lept being a thorn in the Imperium sides, to the point where the Lion had to run after him for basically the whole Heresy.
Erase Kurze and you bring a big ass legion back on terra to defend.
>>46435227
In fact, it can be argued that Mortarion kind of fucked over the entire Heresy.
He allowed Nathaniel Garro to live, allowing him to flee at Isstvan III.
>>46434977
Obviously the only correct answer
>>46435172
That's likely yeah. But I'm following Op's scenario, that only 1 of the traitor primarchs didn't fall.
Though It's difficult to envisage how that scenario would have played out. Lets say that Lorgar or Fulgrim(2 of the earliest traitors) takes charge of the Traitor Legions. Surely one of their first targets, if not the first strike of the Betrayal would have been intended to take him out of the picture. Perhaps something similar to the trap laid for the Blood Angels or just a different Dropsite Massacre. At any rate we have to assume that the traitors would have planned for that.Or rather Tzeentch would have planned for that.
>>46434964
Fagnus wasn't ment to have the throne, Sanguinius was.
He was literally the perfect primarch, the embodiment of all good in the Emperor.
Other than him, I think Lion el'Jonson would have made the biggest difference. A tactical genius, never surpassed, who literally trusted noone in the universe, except daddy
>>46434689
Alpharius. So much subtle damage was done by their work that could have swayed the war.
>inb4 "The Alfalfa legion was really working in the interests Emps"
>They were swayed by xenos who used divination to predict the results of the Heresy
>divination that relies on the warp
>"LOL we will trust the warp so we can defeat it!"
Alpharius fell to the sway of chaos, he just didn't realize it.
>>46435350
You're messing it. Magnus was the only one meant to sit on the throne. Sanguinius was supposed to be Head of State, the Imperium's glorious representant if you will, as his charisma is through the roof.
Just like Guiliman was meant to be the Administrator, Vulkan the nice guy smoothing out relations when in peace, Dorn the defender, etc.
>>46435505
hm. Can't be asked to check, so I suppose I will take your word for it.
Still Magnus a shit, Sangy #1 husbando, Lion #1 mistress
>>46435504
AL FW fluff is doped because you can chose one interpretation among many,which is the kind of fluff I prefer.
In my own personnal head cannon, Omzgon was the loyalist through and through, having been found by Empy after being abducted by aliens while Alpharius was found by Horus, in the famous scene we know with him going to Horus' command room to attack him.
Omegon's mind was brought back from the xenos torture, but it was rill pretty fucked up hence why sometimes they both worked together towards traitors gains. He got his shit together and became Janus. Again, just my head cannon.
>>46434689
Magnus could have sat on the chair and even better if he hadn't broken the seal and fucked about with sorcery the librarians would eventually all have become grey Knights
Depends on if you go with it being fated to be 9 vs 9. Adding even one to make it 8 vs 10 is a win for the side with more, doesn't really matter which demigod you get on your team.
Arguably if Lorgar had stayed loyal the whole thing wouldn't have happened though.
If its a fated thing, and we're talking about a team swap who would you change? I'd trade Russ out for Magnus any day of the week as loyalists.
>>46434977
/thread
>>46436079
To be honest the only reason that didn't happen is because Magnus shat on the emperors project. Magnus would have remained loyal but Ahriman would have stilled caused the Rubication and shattered the Legion into factions. Even as a demon primarch Magnus has little to nothing to do with the actions of the CSM. Ahriman and his acolytes run the show.
>>46434689
What about Lorgar. He had the second biggest Legion and was more than less responsible for the Heresy.
>>46437175
Logar was still small time. No one respected him and word bearers were not known for combat prowess. Without Horus the heresy is a foot note with Angron/mortarion going rogue.
>>46437467
If Lorgar would have declared Chaos Heresy on Cadia and kicked Erebus and Kor'Phaeron out off an airlock the Heresy wouldn t have happened. Or at least nobody would have known how to contact deamons properly and Ultramar wouldn't have been isolated. Also a fuckton off soldiers.
>>46437467
>word bearers were not known for combat prowess
It was lorgar who had no talent for combat, not his legion. Word Bearers were often invited to the fighting pits of the World Eaters.
Even before they were reunited with Lorgar the word bearers were one of the most ferocious legion. They were basically "emperor snackbar!" the legion.
>>46437467
>Without Horus the heresy is a foot note with Angron/mortarion going rogue
How you arrived at that I dont even want to know.
>>46434879
Might be posturing, but when the wolves come down on Aghoru to tell the sons to get their ass over to the next battlefield, Magnus makes it clear that he could shit all over their ships in orbit. Since he also likes to blow up titans by himself, I think it's worth giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Probably Fulgrim
That dude knew his mental warfare
>>46435350
Mate, the Golden Throne.
Not some normal chair, but the battery required to power the physic lighthouse that is the Astranomicon.
>>46437467
Why would Mortarion join Lorgar? I though he only fought with Horus because he was his only friend.
Wouldn't it make more sense if Curze and Angron joined Lorgar? Angron because he's pissed and Curse because he want to see the galaxy burn
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>>46438442
Mortarion just had seething hatred of the emperor. It was rather inevitable
Fulgrim
He was just about to nuke Horus out of orbit when some asshole brought him the demon sword who made all the thoughts of killing Horus go away
His legion was also really good at their jobs and he was a competent leader
>>46434794
>>46434799
Extremely correct answers.
Even if you swap Dorn for Pert betraying the Imperium, Dorn's contribution would've paled in comparison to Pert's. Not to mention the fact that Dorn couldn't siege his way out of a wet paper bag.
Battle of Terra would've been a last stand for the forces of Chaos. And they would've lost.
>>46442100
Eh, I'm still going with Horus, because lets be honest. None of the other traitor primarchs are remotely as capable as holding the whole thing together as he is. Without Horus you don't have a galaxy burning civil war, you've got a half dozen temper tantrums before they're put down hard.
>>46443126
It's kind of a cop-out answer though. At least it is in my opinion.
Assuming Horus stays a traitor, since it's the only way you have the whole Horus Heresy thing.
Magnus is on another level compared to the other Primarchs, and also was loyalist up until the Wolves showed up and started being cunts, so it's not much of a stretch and a big game changer.
If he can't, for reasons, then...uh...Fulgrim?
>>46434977
OP here is should have said besides Horus because we would not have 40k without him doing the Heresy
>>46434689
Lorgar, definitely. If Lorgar stays loyal, he never drives Horus toward Chaos; so either there is never a Horus Heresy, or if it somehow still happens then neither of the sides will be made up of Chaos-sniffers.
In my opinion, aside from Horus the most devastating loss to the Traitors' war effort would be Magnus, for the reasons stated previously in the thread (Magnus and the Thousand Sons are insanely powerful relative to their small numbers).
If not Magnus, then probably Lorgar. Aside from the fact that Lorgar was the one who set Horus on that path in the first place...
-Lorgar' Legion is one of the bigger, if not biggest, Legions the Traitors have. Not only is it on the bigger side (the Forge World 30k game books indicate the Word Bearers might have had 200k marines at the outbreak of the Heresy), the Word Bearers are also one of the most reliable Legions amongst those available to Horus, probably second only to the Death Guard and the Iron Warriors (the one downside to the Word Bearers is that their focus on ritual and fanaticism might make them commit tactical/strategic errors the Death Guard and Iron Warriors will not). Compare the relative reliability of the Word Bearers to the nutjobs of the Emperor's Children (Fulgrim and his Legion care for nothing but satisfying their perversions), Night Lords (their First Captain said "fuck Horus we're doing out own thing"), and the World Eaters (Angron helped force 4 of the Traitor Legions to spend precious months and manpower in the meatgrinder of Isstvan III).
-Without Lorgar and his Ruin Storm, keeping the Ultramarines out of the fight for so long would have been MUCH harder. Without Lorgar, Horus' own Calth-equivalent would have had to have been pretty much perfect to cripple the Ultramarines bad enough to prevent them from being an effective fighting force during the Heresy.
Second to Lorgar would be Mortarion and Perturabo, as the Death Guard and the Iron Warriors are the only other reliable legions available to Horus beyond his own.
Fuck it, i'll cash in with my opinion.
The most obivious one would be Lorgar, no explanation needed.
But the question kinda implies we're in a universe where the HH happens, so that's out of the question.
While there is no denying Magnus was a powerhouse, he controlled the smallest legion, in war with battles happening in many places at once.
His forces would be split or too focused to cause a major shift in the power balance.
I would probably put my money on Fulgrim making the biggest difference.
His legion was strong and he could probably have put out a couple of primarcs out of play during the heresy.
He also had multiple times where he could have stopped Horus or put a major pin in the wheel for the traitor war effort.
If Fulgrim had stayed loyal, there might not have been a need for Saul Tarvits to fly off and warn the emperor.
Prolly Magnus would have made the biggest difference if he didn't FUCK up the webway and the Emperor by extension. Powaturbo might make a difference but he is a tad too au... artistic. Alpharius and his twin (Whoever turned to chaos) might be potent in wrecking the traitors with guerillla warfare and sheer harassment
Lorgar first and foremost; without him going rogue the entire thing would likely not have happened and, assuming he was still reprimanded by the Emperor for being a religious faggot but didn't get all ass-mad about it afterwards, would have had a legion that far outweighed all others in size, let alone fervour and ferocity, barring maybe Pert's IW.
Following that, Horus would be obvious - it's called the Horus Heresy for a reason - as many of the Primarchs would not have defected so quickly without Horus setting the stage.
Following that, Fulgrim and his legion of very possibly the finest warriors in the galaxy would have made quite the difference, especially since Fulgrim had the rebels in a position of vulnerability during his corruption - plus the fact that by keeping Fulgrim loyal, you keep the IF's Primarch alive. Following THAT, Pert had the largest and most strategically powerful army of any of the Primarchs, and would have made mince-meat of any rebel bastion, as well as making Terra truly impenetrable.
