Why do we hate it again?
I don't hate it. I'm just not that into shonen serious-drama-about-powerlevels-stuff.
Mostly for being unbalanced and having wonky scaling.
"We" don't. Most of /tg/ sees it in either a neutral or positive light.
There are, however, three dedicated shitposters who get triggered whenever it gets mentioned, because it's too popular for their tastes.
>>46392875
Unbalanced mess that can't even do his own settings right much less others
I don't. I've had a lot of fun with D&D 3.x over the years, but it has very serious design flaws that can be improved on.
>>46393165
>serious design flaws
This, thank god PF fixed each one of them
>>46393201
Luis, estas remplido con mierda.
>>46392875
We don't. It's just loud assholes like >>46393029 who loudly announce their (shitty) opinions.
>>46393201
>PF
>Fixing flaws
No.
>>46392875
Because bonus feats are not a class feature.
Also, it completely flipped the saving throw math from how it was in AD&D - you actually get WORSE at saving against level-equivalent stuff, or at least don't get much better at it, while in AD&D you actually got better at doing the shit you were actually supposed to do.
Fuck Diablo Edition and its scaling bullshit.
>>46393201
>Paizo
>Fixing things
Pick one and only one.
Third parties get a free pass, though, since some of them seem like decent developers.
>>46393279
>Shitty opinions
Are you, by any chance, implying 3.5 isn't an unbalanced mess that requires incredible amounts of work to fix, many of them starting by pretty much banning any class in the PHB?
>>46393297
Are you, by any chance, implying that anyone actually wants to argue with you? You are a living waste of time.
Go away, you dumb troll.
I don't hate it, but as it stands I see no reason for me or my playgroup to use it now that 5e exists. It's also pretty unbalanced. There's a reason people call it the Caster Edition.
>>46393315
>He's right therefore he's a troll
Go away, you dumb shill, nobody is paying wotc for it's games anymore, you have no power here.
>>46393297
Nope. But it's people who push that every time, loudly. It's like you've got nothing better to do with your life than repeat the same point, over and over again, even after everyone has known for NINE years, minimum.
>>46393340
>falseflagging
>>46393340
He asked why it's hates, I summed it up in one small sentence, it was other people who replied to me like I was lying, and no, I'm not lying, 3.5 is a fucking mess, literally any other edition is better.
>>46393339
>5e
>not an unmitigated success
>Implying WOTC isn't rolling in money.
Okay.
>>46393297
>>46393340
>>46393358
>ohboyherewego.jpg
>>46393297
You mean banning any other book that ISN'T core, right? core is the only solution, if you don't play core only you're shit.
>>46393297
>many of them starting by pretty much banning any class in the PHB?
Hey, that's not fair. The Bard is alright.
Fuck the asshole that made the Monk, though. A flurry that only works while standing still and an increased move speed? Really? Seriously, the design of that class makes me more mad than the Fighter and that's saying something.
At least it's better than the 3.0 Ranger, though. Good god what a mess that class was.
![[Inarticulate Yelling].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1XQdBee.jpg "[Inarticulate Yelling].jpg")
>>46393358
Except 4 has awful math, 1 and 2 have their own issues, and 5 has the retarded bounded accuracy rules.
No, all D&D is equally crap.
>>46393393
Shut up, bait.
>>46393398
Bard and Barbarian. Maybe Rogue.
>>46393393
>>46393398
Oh god, why don't you ever learn.
>>46393398
I said pretty much any, not outright all.
>>46392875
We don't. I have a complete 3.5 collection and I still use it.
Truth is people hate it because it has been out for so long, that no one still running it are playing the same game.
How are we to answer rule questions and judge people's experiences with it if one dm has modified it run like 2nd edition and another group has homebrewed all their classes and are playing dragons?
I for one have no problem playing it, with some groups. Trying to say that it is worthless for everyone or the answer to all of gods questions are both forms of folly. Also, great flame war thread op, we 2005 now?
>>46393297
This, barbarian, monk, fighter and paladin are overpowered.
>>46392875
Because it attracts powergaming cunts.
It is fine system with good group of people - but with good group any system is fine.
>>46393393
Give me some of that shit you're smoking, it looks pretty good.
Seriously, most of the really broken bits are in Core - there's some smatterings of broken bits in the supplements, but those are easier to ban piecemeal. Also, few of them are as broken as the broken core options. Hell, Ice Assassin is basically just broken since it's a better Simulacrum, which is already top-tier broke.
Core is weird in that the balance of it is all over the place - it's got some of the best and worst classes in the same book.
>>46393406
>Bard and Barbarian. Maybe Rogue.
Bard with ACFs, sure. I'd maybe pull in the Paladin as well in that case, but that class has more fundamental problems.
The Rogue needs a bit of a rework, though, before I'd really consider it a "good" class. Not that there's really that many good replacements for it out there - there's what, the Factotum? The Ninja and Spellthief are both pretty shit.
>>46393411
Because it's fun. No joke.
>>46393452
Alright, I'll bite. Why leave the Ranger off that list?
>>46393467
Bard's good in general, with feat access.
Rogue, if you allow Daring Outlaw, can be okay as a support to Swashbuckler.
You want Scout, or maybe Scout/Ranger with Swift Tracker.
Factotum is pretty good, though .
>>46393456
All games attract power gamers. If there are numbers involved with character creation, munchkins will gather.
3.5 has been out long enough that power gamers are now secure in their builds so they do not want to move on. When all the 3.5 games finally dry up, they will move on to the current version of gurps and anything put out by ffg and WoC.
>>46393486
Precision damage based classes are shit, it's not fun dealing literally zero damage to half the monsters you're going to face as an adventurer.
>>46393486
Damn, sorry, I meant BARBARIAN with ACFs.
The Bard honestly doesn't need much help - it's a solid class.
It's a mediocre to poor game with way too many issues to ignore, but the real reason it gets so much hate is because of its cancerous fanbase. OGL made it *the* game for 90% a whole lot of people, which led to people trying to force a game that barely manages to run a dungeon crawl without falling apart to try and run, for example, dystopic hyper-realistic cyberpunk.
>>46393456
This, more or less.
I played a shit-ton of 3.5 back in the day - heck, I even wrote something (nothing major, fansite crap).
Then I got into a game with a couple of real powerplayers, and I saw firsthand the horrors of imbalance. Sessions literally spent watching powerlessly the two uber-casters solve encounter after enconuter.
Bad players? Sure, but if the game didn't allow for those levels of shittyness, they wouldn't have been able to do that.
>>46393510
It's more like a fifth, but... Yeah. They fill the same "Skilled character' niche, though.
>>46393518
THAT makes more sense....
>>46393496
>move on to the current version of gurps
>implying anyone would want to play GURPS for any reason ever
It's a meme game. No one actually plays it.
Even the GURPS general is just people complaining about how they have no one to play with.
>>46393029
Shut up, Donnie, you're out of your depth!
>>46393496
>All games attract power gamers. If there are numbers involved with character creation, munchkins will gather.
Yeah, but some games have more numbers than others.
3E has so many moving bits that I'm surprised that it isn't more broken than it is.
>>46393588
Considering all the shit that's possible in 3e, I'm not sure how it could be any more broken.
3.PF is shit because it can't decide if it wants to be gritty realistic or high fantasy. If it picked one or the other and just ran with it, it would be a thousand times better, but half its mechanics and design choices are crunchy realism for the sake of realism, the other half are balls to the wall high fantasy, and no one really bothered to make sure they played along nicely.
>>46392875
Celia, please stop posting this thread over and over. Your family is getting worried.
>>46393547
What GURPS generals have you been visiting?
>>46392875
Because it's bad.
>>46393645
Well, it could be shadowrun.
>>46393650
Who am I, Mack? I don't know anymore.
>>46393662
Oh, that's right. I'm Rosemary.
Or am I?
>>46393648
Anon, you don't get it, gritty realism is for martials, high fantasy is for casters, you think it should be one or another, or that both should be balanced, but no, the game is about casters being clearly superior.
>>46393683
>>46393662
I'm so confused.
>>46393297
Holy shit anon how hard are you trying?
>>46393736
Dunno, are you? your's seems a pretty lame bait, you don't even say martials are overpowered like other anons have been saying, you just post a picture and go "srly anon?", work on your baits a little more, dude, we at least deserve that.
>>46393406
>retarded bounded accuracy rules
explain
Because any criticism of 4th edition meant you must be a die-hard 3aboo and 4th edition fans are incredibly thin-skinned
>>46393778
B being shit doesn't exclude A being more shit, anon.
>>46393837
>>46393778
These two.
5e = 1e/0e > 2e = 4e >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3e = PF
For NERDs were not very good at math.
>>46393872
3.5> Your favorite system.
>>46393892
Geneva, you really hurt my feelings. Why does it always have to be this way with you? You don't value me, or what I think.
>>46393925
The love is gone. All you do is complain about this system and that system, not about my eyes or that night in Berlin!
For Pelor sake, it has been 10 years since you took me to the lake!
>>46393969
You... you don't... love me anymore?
>>46393999
I dont even know who you are anymore!
For that matter, I, Victor and Geneva are leaving. You and your antichrist trips can sit and wallow in hate for the rest of eternity!
>>46392875
I don't hate it, I find making characters in it a lot of fun.
But the balance is totally fucked, and if I'm not going to have game balance anyway, I'm just going to play Risus. I don't see why I need a billion rules if the end result is still the DM having to make shit up to keep everyone contributing.
3.5 works really well if you treat it as AD&D with cleaner rules... but if you treat it on its own terms, its really just an awkward version of 4e. The multiclassing system is an innovation worth keeping on some level, but it also requires extensive reworks of all the rules and makes it a very different game. People unfamiliar with other editions eventually ask "why don't we just have modifiers (no useless abilities) and buy off everything with XP directly instead of using levels."
>>46394024
No! Please! Don't leave me! I love you! We can make this work! I will change, I swear... please don't leave me...
>>46394125
I could never truly leave you,Antoinette.
Not after what we shared on the expedition to castle Ravenloft.
>>46393892
FATAL >3.5
>>46394231
Having played Fatal, it is a decent game to run ERP in a war torn setting.
So in that regard, Fatal> Most games.
>>46392875
what?
never heard anyone say they don't like 3.5 irl
>>46394161
You could have told me you were a vampire before we started dating, though.
>>46394257
Yeah, it's great to spend ten minutes calculating if your penis will fit into whichever orifice, and if so, how deeply.and how much damage that will do
>>46394281
I heard no complaining that night with the wolves.
>>46394303
I mean, I have seen people spend more than 24 hours on CoC so it is not like the player base does not exist.
>>46393872
I'd put OD&D above 5E, I think - or at least B/X above it.
OD&D itself has some pretty severe organizational issues, but it's more mechanically sound than 5E.
>>46392875
Bad skill system
"Optional" grid-based combat slog
Feats that vary from cute RP fluff to SCREW THE RULES I'M A CASTER
Fighter and Rogue are literally the worst PC classes in the game.
Casters are too strong.
ECL is a terrible system that makes most monsters unplayabe
CR is wonky
Books implicitly encourage munchkining via buying more splats
It's capeshit that pretends to be medieval fantasy.
>>46393011
>>46393279
>>46393315
>>46393340
3.XIDF hard at work.
>>46393406
>all D&D is equally crap.
Spoken like a true 3.X drone.
>>46394778
>Fighter and Rogue are literally the worst PC classes in the game.
What, not the Monk and Samurai? The Samurai in particular.
Good god, what a trainwreck the Samurai is.
The Truenamer is also pretty rough, but if you optimize the fuck out of those skill checks you're roughly around the Warlock's powerlevel (except a bit worse, probably).
Also, yeah, the feat disparity is just baffling. Not quite as bad as feat taxes being a thing, meaning that you need to grab bad feats to get good ones, but pretty bad.
And then Pathfinder comes around and "rebalances" feat chains by making them even longer. What the actual fuck.
>>46393279
>loudly announce their (shitty) opinions
Someone literally asked them why they don't like it. Preeeetty sure that's just responding to OP's question, not announcing it apropos of nothing.
>>46392875
I don't like 3.5 or Pathfinder (or 4e) because of the feat system. It's an inconsistent, poorly designed, bloated mess in each of those games, and is a big part of why non-casters are as terrible as they are in 3.PF.
The "Ivory Tower" writing style is trash--just ask 3.X's designers.
>>46393778
4e's system would have been better if it wasn't designed to cater to D&D's bloated conceptual cache.
That's why Gamma World 7e's more fun than 4e. If they didn't shackle those mechanics to the D&D brand and all of that baggage to begin with it could have been truly great.
>>46392875
Because it's some kind of trendy thing at this point to shit post/troll about 3.5/PF as compared to Uber rules lite / rules non existent systems on /tg/
Some people also are super butt hurt that dnd is the most popular starting place for people who want to get into trpg's when they feel it should really be -insert muh favorite system here- instead.
They even might be right for some systems but it generally just leads to rants, shit posting, and totally irrational arguments due to the previously mentioned butt hurt.
>>46392875
familiarity breeds contempt and the OGL had everybody try to make the system work for genres that don't fit it and fostered a "just play 3.5" mentality that still burns up neckbeards.
it has its flaws like everything else.
Because we love Paizo so much!
...oh... wait...
>>46395072
>If you optimize the fuck out of those skill checks you're roughly tier4, except a bit worse, probably
...so like better than monk
>>46395224
Did you see that "how do I make a Metroid game in d20" thread that was up some day ago?
Jesus H. Christ.
>>46395282
Yeah, better than monk. The Truenamer actually has a bunch of stuff it can do, rather than the Monk's... Monk stuff.
It just has skill checks that scale by 2*CR while skills scale by 1*LVL, and a bunch of things that make it difficult to actually use the powers they get.
The tier lists generally don't list it since it's "broken", by which they mean that it's at Tier 6 low-op and Tier 4 high-op. Also, at level 20 it jumps all the way into Tier 0 since at-will SLA Gate, but that's not really relevant since you need to play through Truenamer 19 to get there. 13 onwards is especially rough, from what I hear.
They've also got ridiculously good out-of-combat healing and some neat little tricks like being able to UNdispel effects, but overall it's a pretty mediocre class.
There's a good write-up on the GITP forums:
>In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
It's pretty much the definite guide to them, I think? Dude actually played one, which is something I respect.
>>46395119
Except they go and post it where people are trying to talk about fun mechanics.
>>46394829
Nice b8, m8
I can get all the books for free pretty easily so it's really the only system I can use
plus it's been around for a while and has loads of stuff so I feel like there's enough options for me to pick from
>>46395407
One of my players has played them twice, once legit crapnamer, and another time with some popular gitp home brew alternative I allowed because honestly even to Hella buffed up home brew seemed to be pretty tier 3-4 ish. Both times it worked out pretty well, but he is the most rules savvy and clever player in our group so that probably helped.
I'm kinda interested in the new pathfinder true namer, although I haven't looked into it much.
>>46395676
The old new one sounded interesting, but I haven't actually gotten around to reading the new new one. It does sound intriguing, though.
It's actually not that difficult to optimize the skill checks for a "crapnamer", really - high Int Illumian Truenamer, Skill Focus(Truespeak), the best Amulet of the Silver Tongue you can find, and membership in the Paragnistic Assembly.
That's pretty much all the low-hanging fruit, though - the rest is trying to find feats that even give you a +2 if that, and maybe pestering the DM for a custom masterwork item or Item Familiar. The Assembly and Amulet are +20 by themselves, though, which offsets the difference at level 20 - anything else is just gravy for increased uttering and Metawords.
The main problem with the crapnamer is that the effort it takes to optimize the above Truenamer into a slightly worse Warlock is enough optimization to make a slightly better class insane. You've optimized a Truenamer from "crap" to "playable" in the same time it takes to turn a Fighter from "Fighter" to "Ubercharger".
It is an interesting class for optimizers who want to play with low-op groups, though!
I don't think I'd like it because I have a conspiracy of power gamers in my group. They'd make me filter out the overpowered shit, which is more work for me. Maybe I should just let them have their overpowered fun, but I worry that would reduce the lifetime and fun of any campaign.
Because everyone in this board is an autistic retard who plays rpgs as if it is PvP world of warcraft and would much rather play world of warcraft rpg TM aka 4th & 5th edition.
At high levels, a Cleric can send a creature directly to hell, resurrect someone who's been dead for a century, and get a god to do stuff for him.
Meanwhile, a Monk can slow his fall when next to a wall.
>>46392875
Because its the only games you can find.
>>46393373
Ah. So that's why D&D currently has the most barebones development team and anemic release schedule the franchise has ever seen.
I'd love playing a 3.5 game completely straight.
Encumbrance, very specific action economy, feats, languages, class features, ageing, skills, spells, god damn this game was SO complex and I love it.
There's that stupid comic about how 5E or Pathfinder is how people played 3.5 and I hate that.
Imagine a game where all the simulation rules from 3.5 are accurately applied. Settlements have specific demographics. There's an economy. Trade. War. Weather.
This game is EVERYTHING I want from a fantasy role-playing game, but nobody actually runs it. They always run a specific subset of it, and that's a shame.
>>46399415
You'd still be able to snap it half with any core full caster, and martials would still be second class citizens.
And few of those rule systems are inherently intertwined with the rest of the game. Why not just apply them elsewhere?
>"we"
>/tg/ is one person
>>46395508
>Except they go and post it where people are trying to talk about fun mechanics.
Then bitch about it in a thread where that's happening, not where it's the fucking topic you spaz.
>>46395169
Claiming people you disagree with are only doing it to be 'trendy' invalidates anything you said because it is never true.
3.5 has glaring issues and the legion of idiots who refuse to ever play a better system while trying to shoehorn every genre into 3.5 no matter how bad a fit it is is do not help.
>>46399476
>You'd still be able to snap it half with any core full caster, and martials would still be second class citizens.
Well it would have to be a specific kind of campaign. Not something competitive where That Guy works out how to create twelve million gold pieces with three spells, but something where the kind of practicalities brought on by those spells (and other rules) are a serious consideration.
You NEED a horse to carry all your gear, that cliff CANNOT be climbed without the appropriate tools, and the local village DOES NOT HAVE an adventuring supply shop. You actually have to manage all that shit and work it out, use spells creatively, make sure you're well-prepared. None of this "oh you're a fighter so you'd probably have a knife" or "ropes are common, lose one use of your Adventurer's Kit" nonsense.
You can apply 3.x rules elsewhere, and I often do. I just think that as a whole package, it was really on to something. Sure it was a bit fiddly and specific, but I love that. You wouldn't go hiking unprepared, you shouldn't head out into a 3.x adventure unprepared.
>>46392875
We don't, 3.5 is literally the only way to play DnD. ANy other way is WRONG.
>>46399711
>Not something competitive
Stop.
Fucking stop with this bullshit.
Even if the wizard/cleric/druid is the most supportive kindest guy, the fighter/monk is STILL fucking worthless. Fucking rogues can at least use magic items. A fighter/monk simply can not function against level appropriate foes even without a fuckload of magic buffs.
>>46399711
Or you just hire a hireling, like A&D parties have done for ages. I'm pretty sure most of what you said applies to AD&D anyways.
Besides, once you level up a bit most of that becomes trivial.
>>46399791
It's a game, you can agree this kind of thing as players. Veto entire races/classes if you want to.
Calm down.
>>46399829
I wanted to veto fighter in my group, but a guy really wanted to play one.
He rolled 16 average stats.
The DM basically gave him all the magic items, including a +X mithrall fullplate at 6.
Made him the fucking king of Neverwinter.
And he STILL had way less agency than my bard and the cleric. When we had to fight a flying/teleporting/cloud killing/paralyzing lich he was basically sitting everything out. He spent half a session asleep FFS.
>>46399711
>Not something competitive where That Guy works out how to create twelve million gold pieces with three spells, but something where the kind of practicalities brought on by those spells (and other rules) are a serious consideration.
the practicality is that casters are going to use magic to make themselves incredibly rich. that's what people would do in real life with those kind of powers. if you want to approach the setting seriously "that guy" behaviour is the norm, because intelligent people will use their abilities however they can to give themselves an advantage.
>>46392875
Because of the mindset it seems to have put into a lot of players who got into /tg/ stuff when 3.pf was big.
Even 2e players are less grognard.
>>46399810
That's another possibility. My main game now is Basic and its derivatives which have weights, costs, hirelings, etc., but even then, they seem like a way to waive certain mechanics, or "it's up to the GM" (who might be meticulously specific or incredibly lax).
But even if you're a high-level fighter or wizard, what are you doing to make money? Where are you living? What do you need that can't be handled by spells? What if you're out of spells, or spell components?
Some of my favourite parts of adventure stories are the practical considerations, rather than the exciting action set pieces. Do you have enough food? Is there a ready supply of water? Are there settlements nearby that can provide to your needs?
I do get that it's not for everyone, but 3.x had this specific, world-simulation, survivalist element to it. Subsequent editions say, "Encumbrance? Buying specific things? Don't bother. Here are some general rules."
But no, fuck you. I want a trek across the desert where my character will die without water, even if he's a level 10 fighter. I want to carry the bare essentials without slowing my character down, instead of hauling around ten swords because encumbrance is optional. I want the equipment I've bought to matter, and certain obstacles to be impossible without equipment (which is why that equipment was developed, duh).
>>46399983
>What if you're out of spells, or spell components?
>What are escape tools?
>What's a component pouch?
You're going to have to dig deep and lawyer your ass off to tamp down WorDorCs. Better to start from a framework that isn't inherently broken.
>>46399953
3.x has these kind of limits built-in though, which is largely what I'm talking about.
You can follow the copypasta where you make blocks of iron and transmute them into a million daggers. But that large town with a population of 4,000 and a GP limit of 3,000 GP isn't going to give you two million gold for all your daggers.
You have solid rules and guidelines for this stuff that emulates how a real economy, it's not simply left to the GM. If you want to play a dagger-selling campaign where you travel the world selling your infinite supply of daggers, you probably could. The framework is there.
>>46399829
Yea, see, that is why we hate 3.5. It works great, if you veto 52 things and houserule another 139.
Every system requires good judgement, and maybe a couple of houserules. But 3.5 requires so many fixes that you'd be better off making up your own system from scratch.
>>46399983
At level 10, the cleric/druid can create gallons of water with a cantrip.
That he can pray for. He doesn't even need to have it in a book like a wizard. Literally, if he survives a single day, he can pray to his god for water and it'll work.
The food finding rolls are also fucking trivial for anyone who puts points into survival by that time.
On the other hand, level 1 people would freeze to death in Canada no matter what they are wearing, using the 3.PF environmental damage rules, so that's something.
You have this rose tinted image of the game in your head that just simply isn't reality.
The other problem with "rpgs are not competitive" is that 3.x has this weord assumption that A. NPCs are built with the same rules as PCs and B. according to the Book two NPCs of the same level are equally challenging regardless of class. Gentlemen's agreement between players goes down the drain when tier 4 PCs encounter an NPC wizard, and it takes some experience to not trust the rules in this.
>>46400085
Well if there's something better for this kind of game, I'd love to hear about it.
Some abstractions are fine, particularly stuff like clothes and food ("ten days of rations"). But if you're in the icy tundra completely naked and foodless, you'd better find these resources, quick.
>>46399983
>But no, fuck you. I want a trek across the desert where my character will die without water, even if he's a level 10 fighter. I want to carry the bare essentials without slowing my character down, instead of hauling around ten swords because encumbrance is optional. I want the equipment I've bought to matter, and certain obstacles to be impossible without equipment (which is why that equipment was developed, duh).
Yeah, that's why 3.5 is bad: if you're a spellcaster, none of that shit is important after level 6 or so. You can conjure water in the desert, you don't need a grappling hook because you can levitate, etc.
I love what you're talking about, I love the way that kind of problem forces you to think inside the gameworld and make up clever solutions based on what you have to hand. Dark Heresy, for example, is a fantastic game for that. Solving a problem with a smoke grenade is much better than solving it with a psyker. 3.5, however, is a TERRIBLE game for that.
>>46400155
>>46400164
Honestly? 4e using Dark Sun environmental rules is better for that than 3.5, especially since you actually aren't forced to have a caster in the party or eat shit.
>>46400098
I'm not saying it's perfect, I don't have particularly nostalgic feelings towards 3.x. I'm just saying I'd like to play the game completely straight with full management of inventory, encumbrance, etc.
I'm sure there are ways to break it, especially when you bring in splatbooks or find a broken rule.
Again, if there are better systems for this kind of thing without just abstracting everything away, please let me know.
>>46400155
Most games are better for that than any version of D&D. Deadlands is great for it. Dark Heresy, too. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Savage Worlds ain't bad. Fucking GURPS. Seriously, have you played anything other than d20?
>>46400212
>I'm sure there are ways to break it, especially when you bring in splatbooks or find a broken rule.
Or play any standard, basic spellcaster.
You don't need to "break" 3.5. It's broken out of the box. If you're having fun playing parties of just fighters and rogues, though, don't let me stop you.
>>46400155
Die Schwarze Auge, AKA Survival: the Hiking. Sounds exactly like the kind of "count your tent stakes and ration your hardtack" romp you're looking for.
>>46400212
>I'm sure there are ways to break it, especially when you bring in splatbooks or find a broken rule.
I'm going to pretend you're a newfag for the good of my sanity.
Back in the Long Long Before, we mathematically proved that Wizard was broken. Non-optimized, core only, rolling randomly for spell gain, we had trouble generating a single spell list that didn't contain at least one SoD/SoS/SaS spell and a right-angle encounter ender.
It's broken in the wrapper. It was never not broken. Invoke whatever paradigm you'd like; people have spent 15 years trying to unbreak 3.x (some professionally) and failed.
>>46400239
Yes, plenty, but it's mostly been more recent, story-oriented games. Even going back to Basic and some Advanced, I'm surprised how simple a lot of things are. I like my crunch.
>>46400298
It never really happened in any of the groups I played in, but I guess I just got lucky.
>>46400303
Thanks guy!
3.5 feels like a really, really shitty version of GURPS with lots of trap options and artificial limits.
What good is 'muh options' if its all done in a really clunky way that is inconsistent and poorly implemented.
>>46400164
That's why spell components exist.
>>46400734
Most of the time the game outright tells you not to bother with that, either by just disregarding any of the cheap ones, or by telling you to just substitute the gold cost in for any expensive reagents. Only if they're rare and expensive does that ever come into play.
>>46400783
>Only if they're rare and expensive does that ever come into play.
And then, due to the massively higher resource economy and opportunity benefit of just using a spell to fix it, everybody gets to play the "enable the Wizard" game! Yaaay!
No one hates 3.X. No one is retarded enough to hate a game they are not forced to play.
Maybe upset at the culture or it's popularity over another title. 3.X just hit the shelves with the right brand at the right time, and I would suggest that it's been to the benefit of the RPG community over all.
As for /tg/'s beardmads I suspect meme churn. The last edition was was saturated with posters ready to die on the hill of 'caster edition' fighting off bear lore and martial dalies. Now it's hip to defend 4 and 5 over 3.X.
>>46393406
>Except 4 has awful math,
Rhis has been fixed for a long time. Using mm3 monsters and expertise feats fixed the math.
And its hilarious that someone defending 3e is trying to call 4e for having bad math.
>Oh no pcs need a +1 to hit every 10 levels what fucked up math
>>46400734
By the rules, a spell component pouch covers all components without a listed cost forever. If you insist on disregarding the rules, Eschew Material Components is a feat.
>>46392875
I don't think people hate it so much as they know the systems flaws very well because its so popular and been out for so long. For some people though its their first and only pen and paper roleplaying game and they aren't even aware the system has flaws, and can become unpleasant to converse with because of this.
Personally though I would always go for 5e instead. I like saying goodbye to alignments, and concentration fixes buffmonsters. Also more streamlined.
>>46392875
Its a dungeon crawler beat em up with bad class balance, which is something a dungeon crawler kind of needs.
>>46400087
>But that large town with a population of 4,000 and a GP limit of 3,000 GP isn't going to give you two million gold for all your daggers.
It's got an actual money limit of 12 million or so, though, if I remember the math right?
The "GP limit" is just for how expensive INDIVIDUAL ITEMS can get for buying (and maybe selling, I don't remember).
Yeah, it's a bit dumb. 3E's economy rules are a mess, and you're better off with, I dunno, ACKS.
Well I don't like it, but I don't really care enough to turn down someone who insists on using it for a game they want to run.
A game that gives you a million options but doesn't tell you that most of them are shit is bound to frustrate people though
>>46400115
I love how people pretend the only problem with 3.x is class balance.
The entire skill system is broken, the challenge rating system is broken, and creating npc stats is a huge pain that suffers from the same lack of balance as pcs.
>>46400386
I was in that thread! That shit was hilarious. Minimum possible spells known, totally at random, and we still could not make a fighter tier wizard.
I wonder if it's on suptg.
>>46401124
There's also feat/spell/item balance, and magic item treadmill while you are at it.
>>46400386
>SaS
Wat?
Save and suck anyway?
>>46401155
If you remember any quotes, you could search for it. Please link if you do.
>>46401203
Ayup.
>Save or Die
>Save or Suck
>Save and Suck
There's also the whole more general "Save or Lose" category which is sometimes used.
Save or Suck spells are the ones who either don't allow a save in the first place or have partial effects that are still strong or whatnot. A fun and unoptimized example would be applying a theoretical no-save on-hit debuff metamagic to Magic Missile.
>>46401203
I don't recall one from 3.5 off hand, but PF had a first level spell that makes you attack yourself (no action) or _be stunned for an entire turn_ if you save.
>>46401407
Does stunning in PF still mean you drop your weapon? Because holy fuck
>>46401350
I remember Mr. Rage was in it and not much else in terms of exact quotes.
I'm looking through suptg for it around the time period it would have happened. I'll bet LL deleted it to make more room for questfags, though (if it was even archived in the first place).
Wish we had dumps of easymodo, green oval, etc.
Also, while we're mourning the poor fighter and monk, can we spare a few moments for the poor damage spell wizard?
Going from basic or AD&D fireballs being awesome to being completely worthless because everything had massive bloated hp was sad.
The biggest crime is that the only reason people don't catch on to the inherent class balance issues is because of little timmy picking up sorcerer (because more spells per day=more better!) and trying to use burning hands and fireball as their go-to spells.
>>46401458
Got it wrong, it was this spell:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/terrible-remorse
"And then the spell ends" was errata'd in.
>>46401521
Damage magic was still useful if you have a lot of weaker enemies you need to clear out fast. It was just almost never worth using on a single enemy unless it was ray of disintegration or something
>>46401595
That doesn't really seem too out of the scope of 3rd/4th level spells, but that spell kind of annoys me on a different level. I think if you ask a dominated person to do something like that they'd get an extra saving throw. It kind of just makes everyone you use it on seem suicidal to me if you can do that with a lower level spell
But that's just a small matter of preference
>>46400386
>people have spent 15 years trying to unbreak 3.x (some professionally) and failed
Fantasy Craft does a fair job of it, but that's mostly by burning 80% of it down and starting over from there. Not necessarily 3.5 anymore.
>>46401460
>>46401350
>>46401155
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/username/mr.%20rage/
Wouldn't know what to look for myself, so here's a lead for you.
>>46401813
4plebs doesn't go back anywhere close to far enough. That search ends in 2013, and this thread almost certainly happened before 2010.
That's why I said I wish we had dumps of green oval and easymodo.
>>46401792
The problem is that getting staggered is really bad. And you had that on a SAVE for round/level.
Now that it actually ends on a save it's okay, even a bit weak.
>>46401951
Ah, didn't know the thread in question would have been that old.
>>46401792
To be fair, attacking yourself once per round for 1d8 is a pretty half assed suicidal.
It's fair with the errata, but without it you could stun lock any enemy with good saves for most of the spell's duration. Hell that means it's better against enemies with high saves than low saves.
>>46401813
Where can I get a .pdf of Fantasy Craft?
>>46393776
He hates the fact that all of the classes are useful in combat in 5e because to hit is stat (normally capped at +5) + proficiency (which is the same across all of the classes) vs AC.
>>46392875
The List:
Trap Feats
Trap Skills
the DCs for skills are all 10-20 higher than they should be
DC scaling makes no sense in a lot of other subsystems too
Caster OPness
Lack of Balance even in things that you'd think you couldn't possibly unbalance but it still manages it (like between martials, or between Monks and whatever other poor bastard classes fit into the same wtf classification for classes monks were in due to 3.5 making them neither utility, caster nor martial)
>>46399507
Go home /v/, we are one big happy familywho want to stuff spiders up our vagina
>>46393872
Personally I'd switch 2e with 1e because I found it easier to use and generally better organised but that's just my preference.
Also Basic for best D&D
>>46402144
Good list, I'd add.
Feat Tax. Want to do something cool as a martial? It's buried somewhere in a feat three behind useless but still mandatory feats.
>>46402257
The worst part is
>wanna do something cool? Okay. After getting 500 useless feats, the cool thing you want to do is actually useless in combat anyway
fucking whirwind attack
>dodge mobility combat expertise spring attack and finally whirlwind attack
all that for the ability to use a full round action to make 1 attack against each enemy adjacent to you.
>>46402527
Not to mention all the feat taxes to get into certain Prestige Classes.
The entire TWF chain sucked ass too. Lured you in with the dream of holding two swords, and spat you out because you'd never get to full attack anyway, and even if you did, good luck hitting shit.
>>46402922
And that shit got into all the derivatives. Trying to remove all the 3.x remains from star wars saga (dodge was the first thing to go) was pure pain.
>>46402065
It's for sale on DriveThruRPG.
Additionally:
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/nzs6xsnzbid4t/Fantasy_Craft
Is it worth getting a monk level as a Barbarian going Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior/Warshaper?
>>46392875
I don't. But then again, my group isn't a bunch of total asshats that work to break the system.
>>46405991
please see
>>46400386
before you spout shit about how "you have to try to break the system".
