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http://pastebin.com/gsYUFPGD
Not sure if im doing this right but might as well try.
Anyway have you guys ever used an antagonist group for a Different Splat? And how the Troupe handled it.
You know, on thinking about it, I don't think I ever have mixed up the antagonists like that. I might have to try it.
>>46372371
Mind sharing with the rest of the Class?
>>46374403
Yay there are a lot of interesting way of doing so.
Like lets say a group of vampires are investigating what appears to be clear sighting of Belial's Brood only to come face to face with Bale Hounds instead.
>>46374343
Silly question here: has anyone tried to adapt Supernatural Mythos/creatures into CoD? It's not for me, it's for... some girls I know.
>>46374427
Not sure I know how, but I got it from the 7 chan request thread
>>46374615
Its easy enough. Just change a few thing about the inferno to fit the supernatural show.
Heaven is untouched by Chronicle of Darkness so you can port the over with little hassle. You can even use God Machine Angels for the Heavenly Angel. Both Must obey orders and you can have the Heavenly Angels Need to possess people to operate.
>>46374677
Now, if only someone would post the Beast Fiction Anthology and the final Beast PDF with index and errata.
>>46374615
Everything else just us the Horror system from the Chronicle of Darkness Book
>>46374615
Is that show even still running?
>>46374797
Think so, God has a Big Bad Evil Sister.
>>46374677
/tg/ allows uploading pdfs like you would an image. Alternatively, there's google drive or a million filehosting sites.
>>46374677
Well you can put that on a google doc, and then share the doc with us.
Common you can trust us.
>>46374677
I think Dark Era might be a bit big for image posting.
>>46374827
Well that sounds about par for the course for a show like that.
Dark Eras is really fantastic, particularly The Sundered World chapter.
Unfortunately, since the Mage sections are updated for 2e, it's making the wait for the new corebook all the more interminable and frustrating.
>>46375328
I think you should go to Dave's house, wait until he goes to bed then burgle his laptop.
be the hero we need anon
Has anyone ever tried adapting the initiative system from Minds Eye to tabletop for vampire? The mental/social/physical system seems to make a lot of sense.
>>46375363
Violating Dave seems a bit dramatic (and inconvenient since he lives in the UK and I'm in the USA), particularly since he wants Mage 2e released more than anyone. He doesn't get paid before its published.
Besides, layout and proofing are almost done, and the book will then only need Paradox's approval.
The fact that the release is 'theoretically' so close is also what makes it so frustrating.
However, Dave could certainly ease our pain by releasing more Signs of Sorcery spoilers.
>>46375615
>He doesn't get paid before its published.
So what you're saying is that he'd be willing to leave a window cracked, and claim the stuff you/I/we steal on his insurance? We get mage and Dave gets an early pay day.
I like this plan, everyone wins.
there might or might not be something at the end of this link
http://pastebin.com/K3RVG1DJ
>>46375649
Stolen or leaked copy is not the same as officially published.
It would be a lose/lose situation for poor Dave.
>>46375706
>not posting the lyrics to The Next Episode instead of an actual file host link
I guess it is a day too early for that.
>>46374739
>Request for Beast Fiction Anthology and the final Beast PDF with index and errata
Hopefully someone will be kind enough to post the fiction anthology, or at least Dave's story with the mage and bastet crossover.
>>46375706
Not sure what this was suppose to be but I got nothing out of this.
Since it's not indicated in Dark Eras, has Dave or Chris mentioned what Pangaeans look like under Mage Sight?
>>46375884
Yay apparently there a point in the story where the Mage calls out that the Beast is only a Goatic demon.
>>46374343
>Anyway have you guys ever used an antagonist group for a Different Splat? And how the Troupe handled it.
Routinely. Strix in werewolf games, Scelesti/Seers in vampire games, idigam in changeling games (did not go well).
>>46375974
TFW I know I'll never spend a time on a Beast product, but still badly want a copy of Dave's story.
>>46376034
After The Sundered World in Dark Eras, I'm eager to use Werewolf Hosts and Idigam as Mage antagonists.
>>46375974
>thinking mages know what they're talking about
so adorable
>>46376060
>Werewolf Hosts
there's no such thing
>>46376066
But what about "mage supremacy?"
>>46376095
Hosts from the Werewolf books.
>>46376097
Mage fans are tricksy, they try and play down their supremacy and then just when you doubt yourself BAM!
2e gets released and they get a load of new toys and all their """""weaknesses""""" reduced or removed entirely.
Then they laugh at you for having hope.
>>46375937
GOD!!!
>>46376097
There a lot of things in Dark Era that debunk Mage Supremacy.
>>46376034
>Scelesti in vampire games
I just had a horrifying though, Vampires that are infused with the Abyss.
>>46376122
oh they're good for mage games
like natural disasters except you can't deal with them as easily
>>46376170
All the Mage books, to say nothing of the 2e spoilers and Dave's repeated comments, debunk idiotic notions of "mage supremacy." Dark Eras is just one more example.
The idea is usually advanced by people who either willfully ignorant about the Mage setting and mechanics (or just plain stupid), or are just immature children frightened that mages may outshine their favorite splat, regardless of the veracity of such belief.
>>46376279
Some of us live in a white room and in there Mages do trump everything else
>>46376327
Dave has flat said Werewolves are more likely to win a sudden fight with no prep time against a Mage. Its on the forums.
>>46376327
Someone really needs to stat-out a high-ranking Abyssal entity or Idigam called the "White Room."
Am I blind, or does the Dark Eras book provide zero stats for flintlock/matchlock firearms even in eras that kind of need those stats? Didn't Armory 2e have some of that, or am I stuck converting over Armory 1e's stats for them?
>>46376464
the implication being that without total ambush the Mage will still win
and since Mages sense all magic they can never be ambushed except by defenceless puppies.
>>46376500
You're blind and stupid
They work like modern guns with 4 turns of reloading
>>46376524
>the implication being that without total ambush the Mage will still win
It was referring to a total ambush where the mage was the ambusher.
Even if the mage knows, it costs more mana to use magic on a werewolf.
>>46376464
Dave didn't really say who would win. He was just joking around and actually mocking the entire discussion. He has little tolerance or patience for "white room" battle scenarios.
Dave has repeatedly acknowledged that mages are not supreme by any measure, but refuses to substantiate this obvious fact with useless and impractical one-on-one, featureless, and contextless battle scenarios.
>>46376573
Right, because Mana is sooooooo hard to come by.
Ecept that you can convert essence into mana on a 1:1 basis and essence is all over the fucking place, including inside the werewolf you just barbecued
>>46376573
Don't you mean that more potency?
>>46376464
>Werewolves are more likely to win a sudden fight with no prep time against a Mage.
Well, no shit, a werewolf just popping war form out of nowhere on a busy street? That wolf is going to blend everything in a 20 yard radius into a fine, mushy red paste, your average Mage included. If 2e did something right, it made werewolves properly horrifying close quarters combat.
Now, a properly kitted out Mage (say, an Adamantine Arrow who uses his magic to go all John Woo) might be able to survive well enough to run the hell away or wait out the clock to make the wolf revert to another form where it's much less dangerous, and then maybe win or flee from there, but that's not even in the same neighborhood as automatically trumping the werewolf.
>>46376589
>Dave didn't really say who would win. He was just joking around and actually mocking the entire discussion. He has little tolerance or patience for "white room" battle scenarios.
He said the mage's spleen would be flying across the room
>>46376606
>Right, because Mana is sooooooo hard to come by.
You're limited to how much mana you can spend per turn
>>46376500
>Armory 2e
Such a book doesn't exist.
Maybe the information will be in Hurt Locker, but that is still at least months away from release.
>>46376493
So it fucks with the concept of length, making it take a potentially infinite amount of time to travel a finite length, is that right?
>>46376573
>it costs more mana to use magic on a werewolf.
Not more mana, more spellfactors.
Their bigger size by itself is an extra -2, and their generally high Withstand ratings will also make it harder. Direct Damage spells will have to contend with their over the top number of health levels.
>>46376619
>You're limited to how much mana you can spend per turn
And the werewolf is similarly limited by essence
>>46376606
Gee what sort of Spirit spell and practice would you need for that? Then think about not every mage has or gets Spirit and the fact most mages don't max out most arcane.
>>46376606
>Ecept that you can convert essence into mana on a 1:1 basis
Ah, so you are not talking about Mages in general, just one specific Mage build that has access to the essence transforming spells! You should have said sooner that you don't actually believe Mages in general being overpowered.
>>46376675
>familiar with Influence: Battle
>siphon essence to cast spells
>fighting the werewolf gives it essence
>babby's first mana battery reliant on neither Gnosis nor arcana
>and I'm not even a Mage fan who will have invariably taken the time to improve the method
>>46376715
>>familiar with Influence: Battle
The werewolf literally gets to kill it with a single roll on the first turn because it's a lower-ranked spirit.
>>siphon essence to cast spells
Costing your turn, in which the werewolf is gutting you.
>>fighting the werewolf gives it essence
Not nearly fast enough to matter; it has to make feeding rolls like any other spirit.
>>and I'm not even a Mage fan who will have invariably taken the time to improve the method
Not being a Mage fan is kind of a weakness here, since you don't know shit about shit.
>>46376623
>Such a book doesn't exist.
I meant Hurt Locker and you obviously knew that. Thanks for reminding me of the proper name.
>>46376541
>And stupid
That seems rather uncalled for. Care to provide a reference? Word searching the book turns up nothing.
>>46376673
Actually if a werewolf has a dedicated locus. Then the werewolf (pack) can draw upon up to 5 Free Essence that is not limited by essence per turn.
But the dedicated locus only has up to 5 essence for the whole pack.
>>46376619
>He said the mage's spleen would be flying across the room
Sigh, did you actually read the context of that particular statement and how Dave was referring to a very specific and highly unlikely circumstance and environment, no less the fact he was obviously mocking the entire discussion,
Dave often recognizes that mages would lose (and win) in combat against other supernaturals. However, Dave's interested in normal characters engaging in events consistent with the design and implementation of the actual setting and rules, not the fevered imaginations of people who care more about comparing spreadsheets of ludicrously overpowered characters than real role-playing.
>>46376781
You know I agree with you.
Maybe we should move on to more productive thing like talking about Dark Eras.
>>46376763
I actually thought you might be referring to 1e's Armory Reloaded, not Hurt Locker.
I believe DavidH spoiled some draft weapon lists, but I think they've since been substantially revised.
>>46376837
Oh, no, I meant Hurt Locker, since Armory Reloaded wouldn't be Armory 2e to me, given how it's neither a book of weapons/gear nor a 2e product. So I apologize for my snippiness about it.
>>46376823
Beneath The Skin: Best setting or bestest setting?
>>46376823
Weren't mages also "supreme" in Dark Eras? /s
Dave and Chris should be proud that The Sundered World has been so well received and has unquestionably dominated the Dark Eras discussions.
I still recall how years ago Vampire was the premiere gameline, even in the nWOD. Mage and Werewolf really appear to have eclipsed its popularity. Dave and Stew have been great, but I think it might be because Vampire 2e has been out so long without any supplements to maintain interest and visibility.
>>46376929
I would mention the surprising lack of matchlock/flintlock stats on the OPP forums. One of the developers or authors might offer some semi-official rules.
>>46376935
I know very little about this setting before hand and even now.
But I fucking love the changes to skinchangers. While they may not be as powerful as demons, that was never the point of them.
Can yoy tell me more about the setting itself?
>>46376944
Nope the book really shows that every splat are just about on par with each other. But one this is sure, Pangaeans are scary as fuck.
>>46375706
Doesn't work.
>>46376781
It's easy to appreciate the sunrise over the beaches of Bali when you're a millionaire with no worries about the bills getting paid or saving for retirement.
Likewise, it's easy to enjoy the fluffy holistic universe where everything is symbols and philosophical interpretation when you have the objectively better mechanics to destroy anything that doesn't have ST Fiat "because I say so" powers in it's arsenal.
DaveB is a trust fund kid, he feels superior because he's never had to struggle.
>>46377026
>Pangaeans are scary as fuck
Indeed.
After reading Sundered World, I now really hope Stew decides to include stats for Mountain Hosts in some future Werewolf supplement.
>>46377200
How dare you said anything bad about DaveB
Dark Eras is pretty keen but all my favorite Eras are in the supplement book to it. I need Year Without A Summer Promethean.
Chronicle of Fagness
>>46377200
>DaveB is a trust fund kid, he feels superior because he's never had to struggle.
WTF???
Is there something seriously wrong with you?
>>46377295
Chronicles of Pangaeans
>>46377360
Trust fund kids are like the last people that get into RPGs. From my experience it's explicitly a middle class thing.
>>46377372
Dave or Chris really need to stat-out a Komodo Dragon Pangaean.
If he was killed by Father Wolf, I also want stats for Komodo Dragon Hosts.
>>46377360
I meant his mindset, not him personally.
He is a self-professed Magefag. he's never had to deal with being second best to another gameline, so is an entitled arse who acts like people complaining that his fave splat is grossly overpowered is a petty complaint from people who just don't "get it"
>>46377386
Poor people can't get into RPGs because they cost so much.
>>46377480
That's not really something anyone has to "deal with" unless they're always explicitly comparing power levels to games they are not playing. It seems like the solution is to...just not pay attention to WoD fans and just play games?
>>46377480
Using WoD as intended means either every PC in the game is [supernatural], or none of them are, so whether a Mage PC is stronger than a Vampire PC is irrelevant; just like it's irrelevant that Hunter PCs are weaker than Werewolf PCs.
And since NPCs are exactly as powerful as the ST wants them to be, it's immaterial what supernatural they are or aren't.
Power level IN GENERAL, for ALL RPGs, is largely an illusion that exists solely for two reasons: conveying a certain feel/theme to the players. Mechanics can "feel" stronger, but that's irrelevant to how powerful characters actually are in play.
Hunters are close to human in apparent power level to communicate a sense of weakness, and to make you feel cooler when you triumph anyway (because the NPC monsters are deliberately given stats that Hunters can overcome). Hunters could be no more powerful, relative to their opposition, even with "stronger" mechanics, but that would make for a weird feel to the game.
>>46377559
True, they're explicitly a luxurious kind of hobby. That said, super rich folks tend to get into shit like vinyl collecting or wine rather than play pretend with dice.
>>46377571
>games exist in a single universe
>every core book goes out of it's way to reference all the other gamelines
>entire books dedicated to crossover
>still has one particular gameline that trumps all the others because their theme is "we're the best lol"
tis is bad design
>>46377593
The real answer to splat power level fights tends to be "which one is the PC/which player does the ST hate least?"
>>46377480
Do you realize that Dave has written for every nWOD / CofD gameline and is a big fan of both the old and new worlds of darkness (and sadly, Exalted)?
You and others simply have a messed-up or willfully ignorant understanding of the Mage setting, mechanics and primary themes. Complaining about such matters as how the Supernal has symbols for everything in the Fallen as "proof" of your position is meaningless and demonstrates of fundamental disconnect of what that actually means withing the overall CofD setting.
Are mages powerful? Sure, but so most other major WW splats as well as mages' powerful reality-destroying adversaries and menagerie of antagonists. However, outside of power-maxed, white room and ridiculous scenarios, mages as just vulnerable as much as, if not more so, that other splats with comparable experience.
I've been out of the running for a while. Heard some rumors about drama with the companies that caused the namechange to CoD..
Can someone explain what happened?
>>46377615
>>46377615
They're not all the same universe. Each core is its own separate game with its own cosmology and sets of truth. There is a similar engine and terminology for optional crossover, but only Beast truly works on an assumption that all the games take place in one setting.
CofD has no setting, only the building blocks for a setting. WoD is the game line with an explicit setting. When you are playing one line of CofD, the other lines do not exist or matter unless the group wills it.
Stop paying attention to CofD fans. Just play the game. The problem no longer exists.
>>46377693
>outside
>white room
So you admit that Mages are the most powerful unless the ST actively impedes them with "lol my NPCs trump you" opponents
>>46377721
CCP sold World of Darkness/Exalted to Paradox.
LARPfag decided old World of Darkness is One World of Darkness (has already pimped out the IP to a gambling company), and new World of Darkness can be Chronicles of Darkness.
4e is going to be done by Paradox's White Wolf Publishing, Chronicles is going to be Onyx Path
>>46377721
Paradox Interactive bought all White Wolf assets and revived the company as a subsidiary. They want to make the Classic World of Darkness (oWoD) setting into a multimedia setting, so to prevent brand confusion, the World of Darkness (nWoD) has been renamed the Chronicles of Darkness, to better represent its toolbox nature. Classic World of Darkness has become One World of Darkness.
>>46377721
Onyx Path originally licensed the intellectual property of the White Wolf tabletop games from CCP.
CCP sold the IP to Paradox last year.
Since OP didn't know whether Paradox would allow them to keep the licenses, production slowed.
Paradox apparently has let OP keep the licenses for the WOD 20th Anniversary and the new WOD gamelines. Paradox intends to produce a classic WOD 4th edition in-house.
Paradox also wants to produce and license the IP for other media like video games and television. They therefore insisted that OP change the name of the new WOD to eliminate any confusion between the two settings. The new WOD's name was changed to Chronicles of Darkness. All else remains the same.
>>46377766
>So you admit that Mages are the most powerful unless the ST actively impedes them with "lol my NPCs trump you" opponents
What?
Are you a troll or do have some sort of reading comprehension or autism-type problems?
It's only in the inane white room scenarios that mages *appear* superior, and that still represents a fundamental misunderstanding of Mage setting and mechanics.
>>46377766
literally no. you need to finagle a bunch of bullshit to get magick to do what you want and doing that shit in pinch in 2E requires you to incur paradox.
were you the same guy who thought all the canon mage antagonists were homebrew?
>>46377372
>Chronicles of Pangaeans
This should be a real thing.
>>46377424
>Stats for Komodo Dragon Pangaean.
This should be our April Fool's 2016 bonus from OP.
>>46377959
Mages are better than any other splat in a 1vs1 arena battle
Ergo they will be better than any other splat in play unless the ST actively impedes them, because they are just better by design
And this is bad design, in a system where cross-creature play is a core element
>>46378002
>Mages are better than any other splat in a 1vs1 arena battle
They really aren't. A Mummy could just block their spells and crush them.
>>46378002
>Mages are better than any other splat in a 1vs1 arena battle
try werewolf lol
>Ergo they will be better than any other splat in play unless the ST actively impedes them, because they are just better by design
first off, everything is going to be "actively impeded by the ST" in any game. The ST creates conflict, that's their job for everything. Second, most games are not 1v1 arena battles, and very, very rarely are there going to be 1v1 fights in any given campaign. Third, characters often face conflicts that can't be easily resolved through violence, or become even worse & more troublesome through violence.
>>46378002
>Mages are better than any other splat in a 1vs1 arena battle
>Ergo they will be better than any other splat in play
This doesn't hold at all.
If I write a splat that can get +100 dice to all stats (ALL stats) but they die 10 minutes after using it, that would be better than any other splat in a "1vs1 arena battle," but is clearly not better in play, because actually using that ability is a death sentence for the character.
Mages are the same way: their whole theme is setting up consequences to fuck your ass raw in the future, in exchange for power now. That's kind of what Paradox is about, and has been about ever since it inflicted permanent mutations back in oMage.
>where cross-creature play is a core element
You can repeat this as many times as you like, it still isn't true.
>>46378033
So a Mage of equal Supernatural Tolerance to a Mummy will lose?
Even at Gnosis 10 I find this unlikely, and as the power drops Mages become ever more supreme
>>46378002
My god, you'e worse than "That Guy" (and apparently have deficient reading comprehension skills).
The sad part is you really don't see it at all.
>>46378100
>So a Mage of equal Supernatural Tolerance to a Mummy will lose?
Yes.
A mummy can just block their magic, no matter what they do. Then the Mummy just crushes their head between their hands.
>>46378100
>So a Mage of equal Supernatural Tolerance to a Mummy will lose?
Farcical. Nobody has ever used "equal Supernatural Tolerance" as a benchmark precisely BECAUSE the different splats use them differently. Only in 1e nWoD (not even oWoD) would such a benchmark have even thought to occur to people, and even then it would still be a shitty one.
I'm sorry, but why is mage vs werewolf a debate?
A mage can instantly deal with any other supernatural at the speed of thought
>you are now on the moon
>>46378149
>objectively equal pre-requisites aren't actually equal because that makes my fave splat seem hideously overpowered
I'm thankful for you
>>46378146
A Space Mage could dedice to say fuck you to all that Arena bullshit and just teleport to his holiday home on a tropical island.
Mojitos and hammocks instead of Arena Combat? I'd consider that a moral victory for the Mage.
>>46378184
>sending a werewolf home to mommy
you fool. it's only going to grow more powerful!
>>46378185
>objectively equal
There you go with your lackluster reading comprehension again.
They aren't objectively equal, and they were never meant to be.
Can we stop feeding the troll and arguing about useless white room, whose supernatural dick is bigger crap!
For a pleasant change of pace, we have ample products and spoilers to discuss.
Let's talk about Dark Eras, Signs of Sorcery, Dave's beast/mage/bastet Temenos road trip story, etc.
>>46378185
>>objectively equal pre-requisites
No, not objectively equal. Not even SUBjectively equal. Even if Sekhmet was otherwise exactly identical to Gnosis in all its uses, the fact it starts at 10 and goes down would make it objectively unequal.
More curiously, what would you do if this powerlevel discussion were taking place in oWoD? Some splats didn't have power stats at all, some had TWO.
"power stat" has never been the comparison benchmark. "equal XP" is the gold standard for whiteroom powerlevel wankery, you should know this well insecure-kun.
>>46378233
>baseline power level for supernaturals
>not designed to measure relative power
The worst thing is that Mage fans cant admit that they're just plain power obsessed because their weaknesses depend on the ST hating their players in a game where creature types are supposed to balance their powers with their drawbacks in order to foster a horror setting
There is no downside to being a Mage unless the ST decides to be a dick
>>46377615
>>46378273
>"equal XP" is the gold standard for whiteroom powerlevel wankery, you should know this well insecure-kun.
And a Mage's arcana offer unparalleled versatility and freedom, and 90% of their effects don't even requie fuel (mana, vitae, essence) unlike every other splat that needs to pay to use 905 of their powers
>>46378308
>not designed to measure relative power
Correct. Now you just need to internalize it.
Kindred master race
>>46378340
>unlike every other splat that needs to pay to use 90% of their powers
That's not even halfway true for Vampire, the literal axle around which WoD revolves.
It's certainly not true for their most powerful powers (Dominate and kin).
>>46378395
You came to the wrong neighborhood motherfucker
>>46378395
A master race of flammable, oversized mosquitoes with temper problems.
Pass.
Despite the release of Dark Eras and the Beast Fiction Anthology, Dave and Chris have stayed away from /wodf/ today.
I wonder why?
>TFW "mage supremacy" and white room trolls are obstacles to new WW game spoilers
>>46378490
>I wonder why?
Because they have jobs to do? And lives?
I would assume.
>>46378490
If it stops posters from wanking over their living deities every word, then they are posts well spent
>>46378442
I don't think the Union has a presence in the setting; it's a liberal arts college town.
Probably a lot of Network Zero tho
>>46378477
Far beyond what they share the night with.
>>46377769
>>46377819
>>46377856
Thanks for clearing that up.
so oWod is getting a new revision even after the 20th lines?
I must admit though, I would really like to see a company like Telltale games take their hands at a oWod video game.. A scenario which is actually possible now.
>>46378538
>I don't think the Union has a presence
nigga that's a funny ass joke
>>46378184
Doesn't Space Magic stop working once you try to get past Space?
Not being sarcastic just wondering.
>>46378207
I second this notion.
>>46378244
Do you have info on the Beast Story!?!? Share it.
>>46378597
Helios keeps all the earthly supernatural shit in, whilst Luna keeps all the alien supernatural shit out.
Except for Mages (idigam flung outside the stratosphere) and Demons (God Machine is wrapped around the galaxy like a comforter)
almost as if the splats Dave is involved in are over-powered bullshit that get to ignore the basic rules of the setting because they;re just that special
>>46378002
>Mages are better than any other splat in a 1vs1 arena battle
No. The quantum-arcana Wizard is better than any other splat in 1vs1.
The quantum-arcana Wizard is a Mage who has the Arcana, and rotes, needed for any given circumstance. He also generally has all the buffs he needs pre-cast.
>>46378549
We don't yet know what will happen with the 20th gamelines except for the very immediate future.
Right now, OP has the license to continue publishing the 20th Anniversary books and Paradox has announced they intend to produce a 4th edition TTRPG of the classic WOD at same future date. If this results in the end of the 20thA or the simultaneous publication of both lines is totally unknown.
Paradox has announced some anticipated (and vague) non-TTRPG WOD projects. If you're interested, check-out the White Wolf Facebook and web pages and the Paradox website and forums for more information.
>>46378662
>I don't break the game, I specialized in Evocation
D&D power-mad players have been making this same argument for Wizards for years. Sure, if you pick the worst options and waste your chargen points on useless shit then you might be less than amazing. but this takes effort, whereas Mages are just the best by design, so "I'm shit on purpose" isn't really an argument.
>>46378632
DaveB made Changing Breeds good. Changing Breeds is good now.
>>46378648
But Dave work on Werewolf & Vampire.
>>46378737
All hail our lord and powergaming saviour dave
>>46378648
>almost as if the splats Dave is involved in are over-powered bullshit that get to ignore the basic rules of the setting because they;re just that special
Dave's written for every single CofD splat.
>>46378706
That's not what I said.
If a Mage has the specialized rotes and arcana, he is generally the best at a given situation.
Outside of that, he is generally pretty bad.
The quantum-arcana wizard has no flaws, because he has the Arcana needed for any given circumstance. Luckily, the quantum-arcana wizard can not survive outside a white room.
>>46378648
>almost as if the splats Dave is involved in are over-powered bullshit
TFW the troll fails to realize that Dave has written for EVERY nWOD/CofD gameline.
Apparently the real issue is not that mages are allegedly comparatively overpowered, but that you just don't like the CofD. Maybe you should try Shadowrun or D&D.
>>46378764
Deal with it or go play WoD, Tom.
>>46378648
Helios & Luna aren't part of any setting except Werewolf.
Anyway, here's a new theme song for your Werewolf & Vampire games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBPw0l26L58
>>46378648
idigam are part of werewolf, sempai
>>46378816
>>46378831
IT'S ALL ONE SETTING
THEY LITERALLY HAVE CROSSOVER BOOKS TO FACILITATE IT
>>46378763
>>46378772
Not in mechanics. all he did was write about how they react to his splats and how they play in his pet city where Mages are supreme
>>46378866
>IT'S ALL ONE SETTING
>THEY LITERALLY HAVE CROSSOVER BOOKS TO FACILITATE IT
They have A crossover book; two if you include oWoD. Two books, in all of 20 years, one of which explicitly took place in a version of WoD where the settings are contradictory on purpose. Even books like Dark Eras don't expect or want you to play Mages AND Werewolves together.
nWoD's setting also contradicts itself between gamelines, again on purpose, but because it does it "softly" that provides room for dipshits like you to cling to this delusion. It's almost enough to make me wish for oWoD's "give each splat a creation myth that is impossible to reconcile with every other splat's creation myth" shtick.
>>46378866
>IT'S ALL ONE SETTING
>THEY LITERALLY HAVE CROSSOVER BOOKS TO FACILITATE IT
Nop. The basic assumption of CofD is that the only supernatural stuff that is "real" or "correct" is the stuff discussed in the core book of whatever line you're playing.
Everything else is optional, crossover sourcebooks included.
>>46378737
>>46378764
I'm not one for game developer hero worship, but if DaveB actually fixed the Changing Breeds to make them remotely tolerable, I will be seriously impressed.
Is anyone willing to share the Beast Fiction Anthology or at least Dave's story so we can decide for ourselves?
>>46378948
>The basic assumption of CofD is that the only supernatural stuff that is "real" or "correct" is the stuff discussed in the core book of whatever line you're playing
And every core book describes how you interact with every other gameline that had been released up to that point.
So by definition thay are all one setting
>>46378983
Nope. It describes how your splat would interact with, say, vampires (assuming there even are vampires). Whether those vampires are capital-V Vampires is up to your ST (and, in the case of Hunter, is very explicitly and blatantly not the expectation).
>>46378866
Dave made the new spirits last I checked, designed blood sorcery, and the Strix.
Those are, by GOD are those mechanics.
READ MOTHER FUCKER.
>>46379020
>Whether those vampires are capital-V Vampires is up to your ST
And we come full circle to Mages being unstoppable unless your ST decides to unload their baggage on your game. Great argument, must do it again
>>46378983
>And every core book describes how you interact with every other gameline that had been released up to that point.
Some lines in the stereotype section and some OOC discussion in the storyteller section that amounts to "if you want to do crossover it's possible but don't just put vampires & shit in because you can" does not make the Chronicles of Darkness a unified setting.
Everything is an option, nothing is unified by default. If you want Mages, werewolves, vampires, changelings, prometheans, etc. all existing together in your setting in EXACTLY the same way they exist in their respective books that's your prerogative but it's not the intention of the line that it be like that.
People think crossover is fun & when you make a bunch of games with similarities in tone & cosmology like Chronicles, people will want to mash them up. Onyx Path is happy to accommodate this desire but it's not the normal state of things.
>>46378939
Shadow of the UK, Shadow of Mexico, and the Chicago Books.
All of these are Crossover books.
The Mage anthology has a mage character meets the Prince of Chicago from the Vampire anthology.
Also the Hunters book constantly say if the have "Other Book" us that book instead.
>>46378972
I got the screenshot for the skinchangers. Here you go.
>>46379122
>Mages totally arent supreme as long as you're willing to houserule all of their powers
Well sure, anything can happen in fan fiction
>>46379068
what happens when a pentacle mage fights a seer mage. or a cabal of banishers bumrush some pentacle mage's home?
>>46379178
>the only way to challenge a Mage is to be a Mage yourself
Mage Supemacy 101
>>46379146
>Also the Hunters book constantly say if the have "Other Book" us that book instead.
They fucking do not, emphatically and repeatedly.
>>46379167
Dave didn't write or develop the new Skinchanger merit.
The discussions involve how Dave allegedly positively portrayed a Bastet Changing Breed in his short story in the Beast Fiction Anthology.
>>46379210
>Magic must defeat Magic
This mage supremacy shit... do people actually believe in it, or is it just a troll meme?
I honestly can't tell.
>>46379210
>Mage Supemacy 101
A class for "special" student who ride the short bus.
>>46379280
it's trollan
>>46379280
It's more or less the same people who get triggered by Solars and Dragon-Bloods existing in the same setting.
>>46379280
Some are trolls, but a few are true believers.
>>46378244
>Dave's beast/mage/bastet Temenos road trip story, etc.
What kind of wacky shenanigans did they get up to?
>>46379256
I have misread my bad.
>>46379305
Ah. Are they the same people who think Hunters should be immune to Lunacy and The Lie?
>>46379323
>>Dave's beast/mage/bastet Temenos road trip story, etc.
>What kind of wacky shenanigans did they get up to?
I don't know! People who've read the story seem like it a lot, but no one has yet shared it with us unwashed masses.
>>46379385
>Are they the same people who think Hunters should be immune to Lunacy and The Lie?
I imagine that many are the same people.
>>46379323
Here a link to dave post about it.
>>46369223
>>46379146
>Crossover books that don't affect the rest of their lines
>Fiction that does not affect the lines or anyone's game
Repeat after me: there is no CofD setting except for the one I make. That's why it got renamed to Chronicles of Darkness: it's not a world and it's not one setting.
Don't have Mages in your setting if you don't like them. Only the group and especially the ST of an individual game gets to determine what is and isn't "canon".
>>46379318
I really think this guys is one of them.
>>46379409
I've always felt that was a silly argument. Sure, being a Hunter is a great justification for being a Sleepwalker. There is literally a merit for that. IT IS ONLY ONE EXPERIENCE. Why are people so intent on arguing for what amounts to minmaxing 1xp? Shit, just ask your ST for it.
>>46379413
>The bit I thought everyone would quote out of context is when the mage rips into the Beast, telling her that she's a Goetia with delusions of grandeur. He's never *wrong*, but he's an *asshole*.
Are Horrors GoetiaGeists?
>>46379385
Umm. The Lie is a perfect example of Mage supremacy. All other splats are wrong, only the Mages are right.
I'm going to run Mage: the Ascension for the first time, give me good plot hooks/chronicle ideas, thanks.
>>46379446
not the same guy you we're arguing with.
Just pointing out that CofD while does not have a metaplot or even forcing you to use the other splat books. They as default do have the other supernaturals in the world.
>>46379521
Congratulations, in a mere two sentences, you've demonstrated your total ignorance concerning the Lie, both in terms of setting and mechanics.
>>46379573
It is not our job to do your chronicle for you .
Lore of the Clans should be send out to backers in a couple days
>>46379521
The Lie isn't things being wrong, the lie is the natural world. The Supernal isn't meant to be the real world, or we'd all be destroyed because we're biological creatures and not abstracts
>>46379573
First note the expectations of your players and want both you and they want from the chronicle.
Does anyone know where I can find the 2013 version of the owod LARP rules?
My googlefu is failing
>>46379615
How?
The others can simply not be equal to mages, because only mages can see the world as it really is.
>>46379502
Horror are from the Astral but seem to have some links to the Beast form the Primal Wilds.
Dave mentions on the forums that when Mages look upon Beast with Mage Sight the Beast of the Primal Wilds seem to draw closer and become more active.
>>46379573
prostitute who awakened because and got into a whole lot of trouble.
done now go fab you silly man
>>46379671
>The others can simply not be equal to mages, because only mages can see the world as it really is.
They don't see the world as it really is, they see how the supernal interacts with the world
>>46379655
https://mega.nz/#F!wpB0ib4a!EsAU0AE4ihrNlDWzp3-MIw!soA0EbTB
>>46379674
>Dave mentions on the forums that when Mages look upon Beast with Mage Sight the Beast of the Primal Wilds seem to draw closer and become more active.
No. That's what a mage might see if the Beast was within an appropriate Emanation Realm.
Beast can be viewed and examined with Mage Sight, but nothing about is Supernal in origin or nature.
>>46379600
There are certainly other supernaturals, they've gotta sell those books somehow, but it's not default that those supernaturals are always absolutely going to be the creatures as described on their various game lines. WoD games, despite having almost contradictory cosmologies for their creatures, actually had the other supernatural in the world be the actual protagonists in the other lines with a small stat set to "simulate" the other splat's powers.
>>46379684
Which. Is. How. The. World. Works.
Without the supernal acting as source code for the rest of reality, nothing could exist. Mages can read the code. Hence, not being bound by the lite is the perfect example of mage supremacy.
>>46379671
You're still not getting it at all.
Try actually reading Mage 1e and perusing the Mage 2e spoilers concerning the Lie and Mage Sight.
>>46379807
The supernal is pointless without the world to work with. Without reality the supernal can't symbolize if nothing is there.
>>46379807
>Without the supernal acting as source code for the rest of reality, nothing could exist
The ignorance; it burns!
As has been repeatedly explained to you, most things in the CofD do not originate in the Supernal.
Supernal Magic and Mage Sight can certainly be used to examine most things in the Fallen World, but that hardly provides mages with a fraction of the omniscience or omnipotence you suggest. Further, the VAST majority of mages only have proficiency in a few Arcana, and their power and understanding is limited to a few areas.
>>46378648
A bit from the Mage Errata in 1E
"Q: If a mage with a moon rock open a portal from behind his enemy to the moon he can create a space vacuum cleaner to send his enemy to the moon? If no why?
A: You can handle this however you like. However, I don't think any magic short of archmastery can reach sympathetically past Earth's atmosphere in the material realm."
>>46379807
It would all exist without it. The Supernal doesn't run the world, it's just there.
>>46380818
Its like a computer with source code or a painting with well paint.
You need both to create the whole, otherwise separately they are meaningless.
>>46380864
No.
The Supernal is like the instruction book. The computer is going to run without it, but the booklet tells you how everything works.
>>46380929
Don't forget changes to the Supernal changes the "Fallen World". So by that logic if there is now Supernul then the world doesn't know what to do.
But I'm not saying the supernal is the most important thing ever the Shadow and Underworld are just as important to maintain the world.
So when you guys do this mage vs werewolf stuff do you sit down and play it out or just spout out what the guys can do?
Last time we had a mage(1st ed) vs werewolf(2nd ed) our Mastigos bitched so hard so fast that the whole thing was passed off as "just a dream" in game. Apparently manipulating things with influence isn't garbage and werewolfs can be really fast.
Turns out, after a long debate with the ST, looking at someone and casting mage sight is in fact, not attacking someone. Which is important when the Irraka uses their Auspice benefit to get into melee range from across the room(the stipulation being you can't use this power on someone who is attacking you).
in the end we had
Acanthus: Did just fine, he saw a vision of a pack of giant monsters ripping them apart and an omen of doom and said "You know what guys I don't need to fuck with these assholes for no reason. I'm staying home. Peace."
Mastigos: thought if he could keep them from melee range he would win, then one of them walked out with a cattle prod and started throwing electricity at him while the Irraka jumped into melee range while all that shit was going down. Had the aforementioned talk about "mage sight is totally like shooting someone!"
Thyrsus: try and talk to the third wolf(there was 3 of them), the big one we thought was the alpha(turns out cattle prod was the alpha) When the Mastigos started talking shit and lightning started flying the Thyrsus jumped out a window yelling for the Mastigos to "get the fuck out" to be fair the Mastigos had 4 dots in space and should of.
Moros: missed the session, really sad he did.
Obrimos: WE DON'T HAVE ONE. NO ONE HAS ANY FORCES. THE MASTIGOS WAS KILLED BY LIGHTNING. I LAUGHED, HE HATED ME BUT I LAUGHED.
and that was the one time our group played mage vs werewolf. It was fun would do again.
>>46381024
That actually sounds fantastic.
>>46381019
>Don't forget changes to the Supernal changes the "Fallen World". So by that logic if there is now Supernul then the world doesn't know what to do.
Uh, no. If there is no Supernal the world just keeps on trucking.
The instruction manual / computer metaphor breaks down with the notion that changing the supernal changes the phenomenal world, but it basically holds that if the relationship has any dependency at all, it's the supernal that relies on the fallen.
Changing symbols can change how phenomena are perceived/experienced (e.g. if I change whether a given flower is associated with death, that changes the tone of a scene in a play), but that doesn't change the fundamental fact that symbols are useless without anything to symbol*ize*.
If you deleted the fallen world, the supernal becomes an impotent morass of nothingness. If you deleted the supernal world, the fallen world keeps on going.
>>46381024
wait wait wait are you telling me that in actual play a lot of the bullshit dick waving people in /wodg/ spew doesn't actually hold true & mages are not gods striding upon the earth who cannot be killed under any circumstances?
fuck u mgae sumpremy
>>46381024
>So when you guys do this mage vs werewolf stuff do you sit down and play it out or just spout out what the guys can do?
Based on all the ones I've seen people just use what's in the books without limiting it to a character. Sometimes they'll limit it to what's available at chargen.
I was a big believer in mages being op a long ass time ago then I ran a hunter game and I had a mage who I thought would be a bit of trouble for the cell and he was able to zap one of them with some open electricity sockets but they just shot the fuck out of him.
>>46381332
>i was a big believer in mages being op
>then i ran a game
you could replace "mage" with virtually anything people bitch about and get the same results. The devs say they hate white rooms for a reason.
>>46381332
This is why, when asked how to handle Mages in a Hunter game, Dave's answer is "Don't use Awakening Mages."
Because Awakening Mages are designed around being PCs, and the Lie is going to fuck them in a lot of cases, whereas witches from that one Hunter book might actually pose a legitimate threat.
>>46381386
It's sort of understandable. I mean it's easy to make fun of people who think that way but the 1e books were not very clear about the difference between "this is what mages believe" and "this is how things really are".
And from the powers point of view, mages do have a lot of abilities, each dot gives you a ton of versatility, on its own and with the others. It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking that they're OP without taking the rest of the game and, more importantly, less highlighted rules into context
>>46381410
>This is why, when asked how to handle Mages in a Hunter game, Dave's answer is "Don't use Awakening Mages."
No, he said that because with new quiescence rules, hunters are going to go crazy seeing mages use magic, then forget they saw it.
Paradox didn't fuck up the mage in my game, a bunch of bullets that overcame his magic armor did.
>>46381024
Our Mage group once took on a group of Werewolves.
We ran away though, as they were playing for keeps, and we didn't want to kill anyone.
I mean seriously, they'd been fucking around for ages and ignoring the problem of that powerful claimed, and then when we try and sort it out, they get angry and try and kill us?
Fucking animals.
>>46381496
>ignoring the problem of that powerful claimed
it's not always a problem, is the thing
our werewolf pack cultivated claimed
>>46381467
He also mentioned that a significant number of hunters are immune to the lie because of the supernatural powers their Compacts give them.
And even if they aren't, who wants to buy a nice shiny 1-dot merit that makes you immune to the Lie, which can in-game be gained by witnessing Supernal Magic?
>>46381536
>He also mentioned that a significant number of hunters are immune to the lie because of the supernatural powers their Compacts give them.
No, he said hunters with supernatural powers are considered Sleepwalkers, you're making up the rest.
>And even if they aren't, who wants to buy a nice shiny 1-dot merit that makes you immune to the Lie, which can in-game be gained by witnessing Supernal Magic?
Yay an EXP tax to unlock Mage Slayer.
>>46381536
Conspiracies, not Compacts, and only those with inherent supernatural powers are de facto Sleepwalkers. For instance, members of TFV are still Sleepers.
>>46381286
Here a bit from the imperial mystery book. Which honestly is the best source for information about the supernal.
It clearly says if the world has no truth of a concept then that concept stops existing. So with that said no supernal no world, but the inverse is also true as you said no world no supernal.
>>46381567
Supernal Mage Slayer.
Terestrial Mages are fair game.
>>46381595
Sorry, my knowledge of Hunter terminology is somewhat spotty.
>>46381496
You may have came across a pure pack. They let spirit run amuck.
>>46381536
>1-dot merit that makes you immune to the Lie
Congratulations, you no longer benefit from the protections of causing Paradox or Dissonance. Would you also like to paint a bulls-eye on you forehead? On the plus side, you remember exactly who and what kicked your ass with perfect clarity.
Fighting Awakened mages is hard; not impossible, but damned difficult.
>>46381604
Man, I like the new Mage font way better.
>>46381688
You also don't constantly take breaking points from witnessing Supernal Magic, before forgetting everything you just saw, while trying to sort out the problem of a rogue Mage.
I would call that a plus.
>>46381619
>my knowledge of Hunter terminology is somewhat spotty
I never liked the hard Tier organization of Hunter, and hope its eliminated in 2e.
>>46381706
>I like the new Mage font way better
Amen.
>>46381717
No doubt. The Quiescence definitely sucks if you're a Sleeper.
However, it doesn't kick in until after the end of the scene a Sleeper is exposed to obvious Supernal magic. During actual combat with people who alter reality by their will alone, when you're fighting for your life, Paradox and Dissonance are quite handy.
>>46381796
Sounds like some sort of meditative "temporary sleeperhood" merit would be worthwhile. Normally you're a Sleepwalker but you can smother it to enable paradox mode.
>>46381905
There is one. At least in Mage 2e.
It's about having a talent for repressing stuff, hilariously enough.
>>46381928
No, that merit is a sort of temporary quasi-Sleepwalker.
>>46381905
Oy vey, your exemplifying the entire problem of wanting to all the benefits of being a Sleeper, with none of the drawbacks.
It's powergaming ridiculousness, betrays the themes of both Hunter and Mage, and misunderstands that being a Sleeper is not a mental state, but a supernatural curse. Given Dave's strong position and basic Hunter premises, I can almost guarantee there'll be no "half-Sleepwalker" or similar type merits in Hunter, and definitely not in Mage.
>>46382038
>at merit is a sort of temporary quasi-Sleepwalker
It's also totally useless in combat.
>>46382151
Dave has no say over what happens in Mage, could you kindly get the dick out your mouth and fuck off?
>>46382179
Sigh...
Dave has discussed this issue repeatedly here and on the OP forums.
As the Mage developer, he has "word of God" control over matters affecting his gameline, just as the other developers do over their products. This was seen most recently in Dark Eras, where Dave approved everything not explicitly and internally Mage-related in the Sundered World with Stew.
Dave cannot change Hunter and Monica cannot change fundamental aspects of Mage.
Simply, if a Hunter is human without an inherent supernatural ability, they will be subject to the Quiescence. Dave has made clear that this is nonnegotiable. I'm sorry if this disrupts your powergamining fantasies. You are free to houserule anything you like.
>>46379305
People get triggered over dragon-bloods an Solars being in the same setting? Fucking why? They're like... Sentai groups fighting a Superhero?
>>46382405
Because they ignore the setting and think the game should be 100% balanced
AKA they're literally the same kind of people who think Hunters should be immune to Lunacy and the Lie
Anyone have the Chronicler's Guide for Mage? A couple of the files in the pastebin link are damaged, and that's one of them.
>>46379280
I dont let it get to me. They can say whatever they want, fact of the matter is ive been ruining mage for about three years now and whenever other supers show up (and i use the powers from their books) the mages have about a 50/50 win loss ratio.
Help me remember, what was the name of that owod guy who like, had powers of all the main splats and was some super evil special snowflake?
>>46382845
Samuel Haight
>>46382570
But... But Dragon-blooded are supposed to be weaker because there are so many an that's why they work in fucking groups so often...
>>46382673
>Chronicler's Guide for Mage
https://www.sendspace.com/file/uogscf
>>46382917
Yeah I never got the argument that they should all be balanced, it's weird.
>>46382943
I don't really thing Exalted is a game that should really have a balance between all the 'splats'. Like, it's a fucking game about being big dick semi-divine creatures doing ridiculus shit. Go bat shit crazy with it, that's the point of the damn game.
>>46382314
>Dave cannot change Hunter and Monica cannot change fundamental aspects of Mage.
It's not changing a fundamental aspect of Mage, it's a merit.
>>46382314
>Simply, if a Hunter is human without an inherent supernatural ability, they will be subject to the Quiescence. Dave has made clear that this is nonnegotiable. I'm sorry if this disrupts your powergamining fantasies. You are free to houserule anything you like.
I like how you're so pretentious you can't even read. They would be immune to quiscience, because they are sleepwalkers. But they can still create paradox by performing a ritual or meditating or just snapping their fingers to a tune.
This doesn't even go against Mage. The abyss is everywhere, they're basically temporarily summoning a shard of the abyss into themselves.
>>46382673
Most version I find can't be opened with Adobe. I'm guessing your having the same problem, right?
Just open it in another pdf reader such as google reader or something like that.
>>46383033
>I like how you're so pretentious you can't even read.
Unfortunately another reason people fall for the mage supremacy idea is magefans, who are stupid as hell and twice as loudmouthed.
>>46381332
The mage issue basically boils down to two things:
a) Mages can do anything. While most splats have some things they do really well and some things they do not at all, mages have a whole lot of wriggle room. There are very few situations where a mage cannot contribute something because of how flexible the arcana and impromptu casting can be.
b) But an individual mage cannot do everything. This is the key balancing factor that most op qq people don't remember. A single mage might be extremely dangerous in a limited way and then utterly useless in another, which is why groups of mages are excessively deadly as they can cover each other, but a lone mage is easily overwhelmed.
>>46382937
Man, this one won't open for me either. Thanks anyway, though. Maybe it's just a problem with my—
>>46383141
Yes! Worked liked a charm. Thank you too, sir.
>>46383319
My file opens without any problems in Adobe and Foxit.
>>46382916
Fucking shit. That is a power gamer if I ever saw one.
Found a Dark Eras leak, uploading right now
My group is suddenly interested in Mage.
However, they want a game where they go out and explore and discover secrets and encounter strange entities and learn things that make them powerful.
If we played Awakening, how do you bend the mechanics of arcane beats and supernal magic to something like that, when power comes to you entirely unrelated to the secrets you bump into?
Alternatively, how can you do it in Ascension?
>>46384181
You just described exactly how Awakening works and the purpose of Arcane Beats. Mages are supposed to go out and muck about with the supernatural in order to grow in power.
I don't see the problem at all.
Dark Eras for everyone!
https://mega.nz/#!h5tQFaIJ!LJR0UH8VUTdzjzu66ptW9kk-uVZkWUcFycrP_freSjY
>>46384181
Just play Awakening, it sounds like they'd be happy with it without any modifications.
>>46384181
You could always give 'em some sort of home base, too—a friendly Consillium, a powerful mentor, or simply a secure sanctum with a good library—and have little interludes of downtime or time-skips to represent the work they have to put in between their adventures.
>>46384258
Great, although the PDF has been circulating since yesterday. It's the thought that counts. We can never share too much.
We now need to liberate the Beast Fiction Anthology, particularly DaveB's story, and the final PDF of Beast with errata, changes and index.
How exactly does True Faith work in old World of Darkness? I'm having trouble figuring out how 'miracles' work, it says its up to the storyteller.
>>46384334
Lemme grab the Beast stuff
>>46384376
Beast for everyone!
https://mega.nz/#F!l0MTUDZL!cSUvfI7L96SoV0dyzQUiPA
>>46384523
Fantastic. Thank you.
>>46384249
>I don't see the problem at all.
I delved into the underworld and discovered the true nature of the helmenth.
Now I can throw fireballs.
The problem is the disassociation between secrets, arcane beats, and the arcana you purchase.
Look at werewolf. Want a strength gift? Have to perform a sacred hunt on a spirit that symbolizes strength. Want an honor facet? Perform an act of honorable renown and it will unlock for you.
>>46385028
So just tell them they can't spend their xp on things that don't make sense for them to gain??
It's not rocket science.
