Is there a mechanic more underrated than bluff?
>>46329262
Who the fuck sits like that?
>>46329262
Forgery.
>>46329262
shut up and post more cute shemales
>>46329301
Example?
>>46329350
Well, for one, Forgery is opposed by Forgery, and no one takes Forgery. It's also very easy to gain bonuses when using it, and you can take 20 with it if you really want. You can get very creative with it if you put your mind to it.
>>46329464
Taking 20 means you fail 19 times in a row.
"ID please... this is fake. It was fake the last ten times. I'm calling the guard."
>>46329301
>>46329464
While I agree with these anons, I'd like to point out that Forgery is kinda niche in that it really only works in environments where official documents are to be expected. Ye Olde Murderhobo isn't going to find much use for it, be it because of dungeon crawling or simple, "Stab NPC, take things, repeat" mentality.
>>46329509
Forgery would be creating the ID. Presenting it would be bluff, if any check at all.
>>46329509
That is not at all how that works. Taking 20 means being painstakingly careful and doing every single thing completely accurately so that you can substitute a rolling a d20 for a result of 20. Taking 20 can only be done with ample time available and when not under pressure or stress.
>>46329509
Taking 20 on forgery is more like sitting at your desk working on the fake ID for as long as the DM says you need to in order to achieve that level of quality.
What the fuck kind of forgery are you doing in front of the guards?
>>46329262
Diplomacy in general is underrated. By RAW, diplomancy can break a game. You could convince the BBEG to trade his doomsday device for a grain of salt.
>>46329282
Someone with a toothache I guess.
>>46329262
Bluff is a skill, not a mechanic.
>>46329509
You're a special kind of stupid.
>>46329563
True, in a dungeon crawling hacky slashy game, it doesn't get much use. But it's still very good in an ongoing campaign, and can be used in tandem with other skills like Bluff and Disguise. It's very underrated for what it can do, and more players should think about taking it when they can.
OP here, I meant bluffing as in, say, Citadels, as a player skill, not a character one.
>>46329780
I don't think the mechanic is underrated when it's a core component of a game, particularly when it's necessary for a successful strategy.
>>46329648
>By RAW, diplomancy can break a game.
Where?
>>46329597
>>46329600
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills#TOC-Taking-20
They all basically say the same thing. As long as you aren't threatened or distracted and have enough time, you can take 20. But that assumes you've tried and failed a few times (likely rolled enough to get a 20). It's nothing more than a time-saving shortcut for those skill checks that aren't dangerous or carry penalty for failure, such as picking an unguarded lock or a strength check for moving a boulder.
You may be thinking about taking 10.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/forgery.htm
Problem with the forgery skill is that the check is done secretly (usually by the DM) and you never know how well you did (because to you, it looks perfectly fine). It has the restriction that you generally cannot try again, since the secret result is applied when opposed, meaning no take 20 in the first place. But you can take 10 if you aren't rushed or distracted when doing it.
>>46329823
3.5e. It's so crazy Rich Burlew actually wrote a (pretty decent) alternative system for diplomacy and related skills just so a diplomancer bard couldn't waltz his way to ruling everything and everyone.
>>46329588
No bluff check is required for the document itself since the forgery takes place of it. You might need a bluff if you add some extra stuff on it. "Here's my ticket. Also I'm with the Princess, you see, and she's waiting on me." You might need a bluff check if they see through the forgery. "My brother bought it for me, he must have been taken by a scalper!"
The secret forgery roll that was done for you at time of creation is opposed by the reader at the time of reading. So really, you don't even know how well you did until crunch time, which is sort of what makes it fun.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/forgery.htm
>>46329464
In practice forgery is probably going to be worthless, since most DMs will make you roll bluff anyway. So you might as well just tsk bluff and not waste the skill points.
>>46329648
>>46329823
Depends on the system. But generally diplomacy is not infallible mind control people seem to think it is. There's some abuse potential in 3.5 but not so much for Pathfinder.
>3.5
Takes 10 rounds, or one round with a -10. Says DM may increase this time or penalty with circumstances. Generally cannot try again, doing more harm than good. Also remember that in 3.5 it's an opposed roll, so a clever statesman type villain might just win and possibly turn NPC allies against you.
>Pathfinder
You cannot raise a creature's disposition of you by more than 2 steps at a time. You cannot retry/try again on the same person within 24 hours. You cannot use it on someone in combat, who doesn't understand you, or intends to harm you in the immediate future.
So no, it isn't really game breaking, but it sure can introduce an interesting twist here or there. I can think of a few modules and APs where NPCs try to use diplomacy to ruin your day.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Diplomacy_Skill
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/diplomacy
Use Rope, obviously.
>>46329648
>Someone with a toothache I guess.
Then she doesn't have a lot of experience with toothaches. I practiced with mine for only 9 months and I had a way better stance.
>>46329917
>No bluff check is required for the document itself since the forgery takes place of it.
That's a bit unrealistic. Presentation of a document is often more important than the document itself. If you're fiddling around on the airport while answering the officer you can get into the interrogation chamber even though your documents are 100% real and in order. With a bluff check you don't actually need a forgery. I don't know how often I got into buses by showing the driver just a random piece of paper and pretending it was a valid ticket.
>>46330493
>I don't know how often I got into buses by showing the driver just a random piece of paper and pretending it was a valid ticket.
You are the cancer that's killing this universe
Animal handling. Train a bunch of cheap livestock for combat and steamroll everything with your army of war donkeys.
I wanted to use slings, but then I found out they were pretty shit. So I got a heavy crossbow. Except for some reason its almost strictly worse than a light crossbow. I wanted to use bluff in combat, but found out without the feat, it was actually a standard action. Man, I have to spend six seconds to bluff in combat? That doesn't seem right.
>>46330542
Yeah, you should at least re-use tickets.
>>46330493
For the act of handing off the paper, which is then opposed by his own skill in detecting forgery, there seems to be no bluff check indicated in the skill entry. Likely it was an attempt to make the skill stand on its own and not obviate it entirely by having another render it pointless every time. Obviously there will be a bluff check if you're trying to use your fake cop badge (forgery isn't just paper documents) to get people to do something entirely unusual or trying to convince another cop -but most people will just go along with it assuming you look the part. The skill cannot assume you're handing it to someone who will immediately launch into an interrogation or just look at it and shrug, seeing no problem.
It's all the embellishments, the story you're giving them along with the document, that might require a bluff check if there is reason to disbelieve. The forgery and the bluff are two independent things and individual modifiers can apply to one or both. While it is true you might not 'need' a paper to get past, it'll likely impose a heavy circumstance penalty on the bluff if you are expected to have one.
Also.
>unrealistic
>the rules of D&D
Welcome to the game, mate. You're aware there's a skill that lets you trick the universe into thinking you're a wizard or another alignment or race entirely so you can use wands, scrolls, and 'race only' items?
>>46331786
The question of what is rolled against can be answered very easily: Is that person focusing on you or your papers?
Also, even if the guard forces you to accompany him into the backroom to interrogate you while somebody else takes a closer look at your papers (or whatever you were presenting), if your forgery convinces them you will probably be allowed to pass no matter how badly you fuck up the bluff roll.
But if your bluff roll fails and you're only saved by your documents the guard will probably remember you when he catches you engaged in some suspicious activity again.
>>46329282
Someone tricked her into putting her hand in superglue, then putting it on her face.
>>46330493
The same bus driver who will just wave people through on the minimum will not likely prompt a bluff at all. More likely, your random piece of paper was just a very low DC forgery since he was just checking to see if you had a 'ticket' at all.
Forgery without bluff can totally get you into the movie theater or past the average bouncer. It's the outlandish stuff that needs a bluff on top of it or if the bouncer has a tip to expect gatecrashers that night and is suspicious. Normally, the bouncer looks at everyone's ID, if it looks good you go through. He doesn't run them all through the state registry and cross examine your answers.
To me, the forgery skill was supposed to be a way for low CHA, high INT based characters to 'bluff' their way through purely low profile/low risk situations without needing a bluff check in the first place. Anything more serious would need a bluff or both.
>>46332041
>Normally, the bouncer looks at everyone's ID,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJenwf_TjCA
>>46331883
My point exactly. There's the potential for too many variables for it to assumed to be one thing. So they're just taken separately depending on level of scrutiny.
The results of the two can produce any of a combination of behaviors from the authority. Against a low scrutiny situation, a passable fake may be all you need.
The divided nature of how Forgery interacts and possibly depends on other forms of deception is the main reason some other systems did away with it. It was either all-powerful against anyone who wasn't an expert or just flat out useless. If it can't stand on its own as a skill, just roll it into something else.
>>46332212
Granted, most bouncers tend to more competent than that since they literally have one job. Sometimes you just get lucky though.
The vid just goes to show that Forgery, 'Disguise', the viewer's predispositions into thinking this is a joke, and a handful of Edge dice can do a lot on their own. There must have been some kind of hilarious circumstance modifiers going on there.
>>46332342
>There must have been some kind of hilarious circumstance modifiers going on there.
That sort of stuff succeeds on a regular basis. My great grandfather often went "shopping" by loading up his trolley with the most expensive stuff he could find in the store and then telling the clerk to please make room because the trolley didn't fit past the crowd waiting to pay.
He was never stopped.
>>46332529
>My great grandfather often went "shopping" by loading up his trolley with the most expensive stuff he could find in the store and then telling the clerk to please make room because the trolley didn't fit past the crowd waiting to pay.
I'm having trouble visualizing this. He cut in line past people trying to pay? And the clerks let him... why?
>>46333318
>And the clerks let him... why?
Because people tend to accept authority when it is presented to them. That's a good part of what bluffing is about.
They literally thought that if he was so sure of himself then he MUST be allowed to take that stuff out. He probably wasn't just allowed to do it. It was probably his job or something to inspect the goods or deliver them to somebody.
People just don't like to stand up in the face of authority.
>>46330542
>cheating public transport out of a few quarters makes you cancer
Lawful Mad detected
>>46333318
He didn't just cut past them, he was basically saying "Could you clear the way so I can get this massive trolly outside?" He hadn't paid, but he asked for help in a way that established the assumption that he had.
>>46329262
>currently living in a boom of social party games where every second game that gets churned out relies completely on bluffing
no, actually. I don't think it's underrated (anymore).
