Space Marines rock. Why is this the worst 40k RPG?
>>46255083
I haven't played it, so I can only speculate. Maybe the focus of the game is too narrow? Space Marines are excellent at fighting, but they don't have that much else going for them. No Dark Heresy-investigations, no Rogue Trader-exploration and trade, no Black Crusade-backstabbing and nuttery, and while Only War is also focused on combat and a rigid command structure, it has that "ordinary soldiers just trying to survive" feel to it. Maybe Space Marines that have been crammed with body upgrades and are handed the best gear humanity can offer right from the bat just don't hold that same challenge, or are simply not as easy to relate to for the average person.
>>46255083
Because space marines do not actually rock.
>>46255083
Death Watch is actually really fun. It is more combat oriented than Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader though.
Don't think I can explain it to you OP. I've had a ton of fun with the Deathwatch game I was in. Lasted almost two years of weekly sessions, and it was crazy awesome fun beginning to end.
Mostly because the mechanics start to fall apart at that level. Doubly so because it was before the fix to unnatural stats.
>>46255533
Don't forget about pre-errata bolters and righteous fury.
>>46255083
Because, in comparing fluff with game mechanics, warhammer 40k breaks down like an MC being denied his harem.
>>46255294
This. The game has potential for drama, but it's easy to get lost in the "muh super commandos" aspects.
>>46255083
Because space marines are completely one dimensional people.
"What character did you make?" "A genetically modified super soldier murder machine." "Cool, how about you?" "Another genetically modified super soldier murder machine."
The other RPGs are less boring.
>>46257397
>one dimensional
Gotta agree with this, mostly.
Space Marine characters are all apex predators at the top of their games. Supers, really. So there's little scope for the upward mobility, the personal enrichment, the greater victories or more satisfactory laurels mere mortals experience as payoff for your RP sessions.
When the campaign is over, you're no more human or less a living tank/ apex predator.
For maximum kek, the game should have been part of the Munchkin franchise.
>>46255083
CUZ ORKZ IZ MADE FER ROKKIN YA ZOGGIN GIT!!!!
But really, i guess it's because it's all about shooty tooty for 99% of it, so unless that's all you want to do, it probably isn't the best choice of RPG book.
HOWEVER, Deathwatch works extremely well with the other books, especially the mob rule. So you can just use Deathwatch as a supplement to the other ones, and whatever player in your party just wants to make a shooty tooty guy can make a marine while the rest are whatevs.
>>46256054
Yep. Theres very little non combat things to do, and that make every character barely more than a murderhobo
>>46255083
System doesn't scale very well.
When we start with Dark Heresy, a Space Marine is a "boss level" character: someone you'd fight towards the end of a campaign, a serious threat to even combat oriented characters. This is pretty setting appropriate, SM are badass dudes after all.
However, trying to base a game around them *and* have it be compatible with the other game lines is a pretty tall order. It also makes enemies across the game lines screwy, so we have like three different stat lines for a Bloodletter so it can be challenging to an acolyte cell, a Rogue Trader Crew and a Deathwatch squad.
Regardless, my group's had a ton of fun playing it.
Something fun to explore for those of you less interested in "ALL BATTLE ALL THE TIME!" is to try politicking up your space marines. Think about things like the Badab Rising, where you have a complex web of loyalties and rivalries that affects both the regular Imperial government and the Space Marines. Maybe a chapter has started a shooting war with a local system governor over some key resource that both have a legitimate claim to, and your Deathwatch squad has been asked to help mediate the dispute before things escalate and military forces show up to back either side?
Also, remember that the key theme of Deathwatch is actually "Getting Along" amusingly enough. You're all from very different backgrounds, you have different ways of doing things and likely don't care much for each other, but you gotta stick together to get the job done and maybe learn to be friends along the way. It's kind of sweet, really.
>>46259219
Basically, keep the squabbling at base. When on a mission, it is go time.
>>46255083
There's plenty room for drama, but it functions better if you don't play Deathwatch at all, but use the mechanics for a normal chapter of space marines.
For example, a campaign about a squad of fifth company Dark Angels stumbling upon the Fallen and having to come to terms with the betrayal after the Horus Heresy on their own would be cool.
I think the big trick people don't do is that sometimes you just have to throw straight up unwinnable encounters at the Kill team to keep them aware they aren't invincible.
Like, give them fights they can't just murder their way through without having to do something about it.
My intro mission was about assassinating a local Warboss and recovering some shit from him. Problem was, the boss was in the middle of the Ork lines. So they had to convince a local guard regiment to provide a distraction for them, even though they knew it was sending the entire regiment to it's death.
And once they snuck in and started fighting the boss, I threw an endless horde at them. Started small, Mag 10, but it refreshed to full strength at the start of every round. Then every two rounds, it grew by 10 as more and more Orks started showing up(If they hadn't gotten the guard to help them, would have gone up every single round).
So what started as easily murdering random groups of Orks swiftly turned into fighting for survival against an endless wave of Orks while a couple members of the team killed the boss. Once he was dead, they had to figure out a place for their Thunderhawk to extract them, all while the Horde kept coming. Made for a constant fighting retreat and a pretty early realization that enough dudes can absolutely kill them, even though none of them died.
A lot of social situations need to be focused around their operations as well. Someone talked about getting along being important, and it absolutely is: make squad mode extremely important to the Kill Team's success in missions, then throw in a lot of shit to divide the fuck out of them. Less mechanically(overuse of things that drop their Cohesion is just stupid, most of the time, and just keeps them from ever bothering), but have roleplaying aspects that have mechanical effects. Made them have to decide between sacrificing civilians or even other Battle Brothers to accomplish their mission, and keep the tension high.
>>46259535
nah, squabbling is good
just keep the banter pithy
>>46259754
And enforce the tension as well: if a player strongly disagrees with a course of action, prevent him from entering squad mode with the others. The trick to this is to balance things out so much so that it doesn't feel like you're punishing them for it. The other thing to make clear is that you're not punishing them for making the "wrong" choice, make sure you're clear that just because the group made one decision doesn't mean that it's the right one. Tell them the lack of squad mode is because of internal disagreements, not mechanical punishment. It doesn't hurt that solo mode is still pretty awesome for a marine as well, and it's good to make sure there's situations where solo mode stuff remains the better option.
Other things I focused on was making sure there was a lot of diplomatic issues the team had to resolve to actually get their mission done. Two regiments of guard who's commanders have a blood feud and refuse to work together, but the kill team needs both to actually accomplish their goals. Obstructive officers who are too proud or dumb to simply bow to the will of the Kill team's needs.
Inquisitors more than capable and willing to tell kill teams no when they are asked for something.
None of these should be straight up bad guys, but they should be obstructions that need to dealt with in order for the various missions to have a chance at success or even happen. And don't just let them power through with violence, either. The Kill team might not face any direct punishment for murdering a general, for example, but it's not going to get them the help they need. And they don't have the time or resources to simply wait for the issue to resolve itself, the team needs to get shit done.
>>46255083
well
1. never any GM's
2. Never any players
3. rules need a firm updating
4. custom item generator from only war is needed to keep shit fresh for custom chapters.
5. everyone regards custom chapters as cheese.
6. people want to play rogue trader or only war because they complain RPing as a demi god is "no fun" due to lack of imagination.
"You can't RP as a Space Marine, they're all demigod killing machines!"
"All you get to do in DW is shoot stuff all the time!"
"There's no progression and your character doesn't change a whole lot through the campaign because he's a space marine!"
Damn /tg/, step your game up. None of these are problems to anyone who is creative.
>>46255294
>>46257397
These.
Personally, its the least fun for me. I like being creative when I role play, and Space Marines are some of the least creative people in the setting.
>>46259219
>You're all from very different backgrounds, you have different ways of doing things and likely don't care much for each other, but you gotta stick together to get the job done and maybe learn to be friends along the way. It
This is a huge aspect of Deathwatch RPG and it's why the complaint that "there's nothing to roleplay when you're a personality-less killing machine" always sounded so weird to me. As much as I hate to tell people they're having badwrongfun, it seems like they're not having fun at all because they aren't engaging with the game on the terms it actually wants.
We've played several Deathwatch campaigns in our group and they always had some conflict in the personal interactions of the squad.
The first time we played, just having both a Dark Angel and a Space Wolf in the party at the same time led to some interesting things. Another example that comes to mind from a later campaign was the Ultramarine Apothecary and the Iron Hand Devastator, and all the arguments they had over whether wounds should be treated or not.
Currently playing a Doom Eagles Assault Chaplain.
>>46255083
Because when you're all playing super special snowflakes, no one's a special snowflake, and that means having to flesh out a character beyond a simple meme. It's too hard for some people to do.
>>46255294
Partly that (although you can have plenty of interesting roleplaying opportunities from interaction between Marines from very different Chapters), partly due to difficulties balancing things when everybody is a Space Marine. Because of how tough Marines are, combat tends to be very binary: either the enemy can't even scratch your armour with their puny weapons, or they pull out the anti-tank guns and blast a hole through your chest.
Big nasties like Carnifexes or Daemon Princes either kill you in one hit or get ganged upon and powdrfisted to death.
>>46259754
>>46259882
Interesting. Thanks.
>>46259754
>>46259882
Screen capping these so that I can refer to them when I make up my own Deathwatch game.
>>46262948
>>46257397
No, you are not a creative. Roleplaying Marines needs to be hammed. You are literally larger than life, every step you make brings consequences to everyone. You gotta chew the scene whenever you can.
You have to tell Brother Sergeant Kirk those are humans you are going to sacrifice and that Techmarine Spook from the Iron Hands is a soul less "whatever the color of artificial blood is"-blooded monster.
You have to act like ye olde characters from Norse tragedies, laughing at your death and crying at your brother's death. You have to be the most silent and misterious hooded guy on the most shadowy corner of the ship when you are a Dark Angel. You have to be extremely pious or extremely malevolent.
Or you can twist every cliché about your chapter.
There is plenty of room to RP marines. Of course, it needs work, you need to know the source material before hand.
Claiming they are just "genetically modified super soldier murder machines" is like saying you are all roleplaying "biped hairless monkeys with oposite thumbs"
>>46255083
I made this years ago and never has it been more relevant.
>>46266805
But marines are the best, most interesting faction in the setting!
>>46255083
I tend to use Deathwatch as a supplement for the other games, or as the "calling in the big guns" option.
For example my Only War squad made the idiot mistake of rescuing and impressing the hell out of a Crusade Intelligence Officer during one of their normal missions.
Oh look, he now has another squad he can tap for his "fun" missions.
There they were, deep in enemy territory, breaching a VIP's personal bunker, to find him deep in negotiations with a Renegade Marine Librarian and his bodyguards.
They collectively shit their pants, and push the big red button marked "In Case of Emergency" on the fancy comm. unit they were given.
Boom, Deathwatch squad teleports in, I hand the party Deathwatch Character sheets, and they alternate between the Marines beating hell out of each other, and the puny guardsmen trying not to get squished underfoot as they try to snatch-and-grab the VIP
>>46255083
Because they are shit at representing the marines for the sake of compatibility with the other systems.
Marines are not supposed to be balanceable to anything else that they published, yet they insisted on doing so.
Balck crusade is the worst offender with multiple space marine classes that are have huge canonical powergaps between themselves yet are all balanced, with fucking renegades on top of that.
>>46268401
So Marines are suppose to have their own games with nothing but other Marines to shoot at?
