What's the /tg/ view on Rational/Rationalist Fiction genre as a whole? Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, for all its flaws, at least did one thing right in that the rules and laws of the universe are internally consistent, as any fantasy world should be, and that the protagonist has no qualms in exploiting those rules for his own gains. Essentially, the Rational Fiction genre is the side of Rules-Lawyering and Power-gaming that we begrudgingly respect, for all the fact that he was a jerk to the group about it, you can't help but give props to That Guy for destroying Psionics.
>>46211961
Sidereal master race!
If someone has to make up an entire philosophy about how much they love shitting in other people's cornflakes, I see it a moral obligation to mock them mercilessly forever.
So fuck off. Life is absurd and always has been.
>>46211961
>Rationalist Fiction genre
Is it an entire genre?
List some aimed at adults.
>>46211961
HPMoR a shit.
A SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
>>46211961
Isn't that story a self-insert wank fest? Because it sure as hell looks like one.
>>46213407
I don't know much about it, but from what I've heard it sounds like the author had a massive boner for Ender's Game, because it's literally Harry Potter with Ender's Game rules. And yes, it also sounds like a wankfest.
>>46211961
Isn't this fic like 80+ chapters of author tract about how a children's fantasy series bends the laws of science and physics?
>>46213407
It avoids the wankery for a while, but then kind of deteriorates into one as it drags on and on.
I have a distant admiration for the intellectual part of how it works, and would like to try writing something rationalist sometime (despite being near-certain to fail horribly at it), but the results of the philosophy is unsettling and it's also kinda wanky.
>>46211961
"Rationalism" is peak autism
and I don't even mean that in the meme sense
this shit is literally autistic
>>46211961
Sounds unbearably pretentious.
>>46213407
>>46213911
>>46214292
It starts off nicely, although there are hints of future faggotry early on (like Harry throwing a bizarre, infantile tantrum when he's denied buying something he wants and threatens Prof. McGonaggle, whom he's just met, with revealing the existence of the wizarding world or something like that if he doesn't get it now), but the more it progresses the more obnoxious he becomes, the more stupid and worshipful everyone else has to become in order to accommodate him and the more obvious it becomes that he represents not just the author's opinions on everything but his own idealized childhood image (such as the narrative clumsily attempting to prove the superiority of self-study to any kind of education system - Yudkowski himself was homeschooled by extremely liberal parents and as the fic itself shows, while this gave him a lot of knowledge of science it also turned him into an antisocial twat since he's never in his life had to confront an opinion he didn't agree with or even pay any attention to an idea he didn't like)
>>46213911
And how great the Battle School sequence from Ender's Game is. Yeah, pretty much.
It's a shame that having an internally consistent setting and story warrants special attention instead of being standard fare.
>>46219549
> instead of being standard fare.
Its fantasy, it wont be the standart fare unless on hard fantasy sub-genre
>>46211961
The big problem with rationalist fiction is that it takes the idea of a setting having consistent rules, then creates those rules based on what would let the main character show off and be special. It's honestly worse than inconsistent rules, because at least then it's not setting you up for that kind of disappointment.
>>46211961
I listened to methods of rationality and really liked it. I stopped after about 20 episodes, but i should get back into it
>>46213018
Magical unicorn princess end.
It happened.
It was fun and interesting at the time, but I wouldn't say it had good writing, characters or plot.
It was ok/10, would recommend if you are into that kind of stuff.
>>46211961
Holy fuck was pic related bad.
>>46211961
MoR is really funny. Harry Potter acts like a complete ass the whole time and happens to have similar opinions as the author, people call the author an idiot and at the end, there is a massive plot twist ofGasp, Harry was Voldemort all along! That's why he's an asshole!
I laughed really hard at that. 9/11 would read again.
If you want MoR done better (and original fiction, instead of fanfiction) try Mother of Learning.
"But the in-fiction laws are consistent! " is like one of the last things I care about. It's like reading Vance for just the magic system in Dying Earth.
>>46211961
The only thing funnier than "rational fiction" is the community of people who write and unironically enjoy "rational fiction".
>>46212388
This. I don't give a shit how implausible your world's physics are as long as there's consistency.
People who gush over Methods of Rationality are the same people who retweeted Black Science Man when he reminded us Star Wars isn't real.
>>46211961
>>46221119
Because it was a novel-length picking-apart of something that is generally well-liked. If you're going to nitpick something to death for that much time, it's got to be something terrible to the core, not something fun by an author who just happens to be bad at math.
>>46224103
Methods of Rationality would have been a fine short story or flash fiction. Unfortunately it is not.
That new light novel rip-off of his looks fucking dire, too.
>>46211961
>>46212449
>>46213911
MoR is message fantasy, as such, it sucks. Badly.
I can't disagree with any of the criticism of it in this thread.
But as fan fiction, it's far from the worst I've read.
>>46211961
Forgot to add that any Rationalist Fiction is also going to be message fantasy.
>>46211961
So there's an entire genre of fiction made up of fanfic authors whose suspension of disbelief can accept magic, but not certain laws of physics working differently (besides, y'know, the fucking magic)? Fictional worlds are called "universes" for a reason. Furthermore, Not everyone is an expert in every subject. I've seen supposedly "realistic" stuff make mistakes about things I'm knowledgeable in. Ultimately, anything that sets out to "fix" a piece of fiction is just going to end up being "watch me wank myself raw over things I know something about."
>>46211961
HPMOR is pretty awful
UNSONG is god tier (no pun intended)
Elizer Yudkowsky is a con artist
Deliberately didactic fiction is dumb and compromises its artistic potential.
>>46211961
I've not seen a single "rationalist fiction" book that has been good.
Can anybody show me otherwise?
>>46224379
Message fantasy? What even is the message? The only rationalist story I read was the one about the baby eaters and the super happy people, the author seemed intelligent and felt as if he was trying to convey a message but it was lost on me, am I just stupid?
>>46224930
So knights inductor syndrome, starting interesting and then becoming self obsessed with how clever you were
>>46224973
con artist that has backing for doing absolutely nothing.
I think he has published one paper about AI, and it was laughed at.
>>46225122
Harry Potter Becomes A Communist, clearly.
>>46225168
Exactly. Knights Inductor is a great example, since 40k has some very, very deep problems with its lore, and KI even pointed out some I'd missed, but there's simply no way to write fiction about it and end up with anything even remotely worth reading. The quality of the KI writefaggotry was even some of the better stuff /tg/ has produced, IMO. But the idea of "fixing" 40k is, ironically, irreparably shit.
>>46225338
The thing is the appeal of 40k is that it's a broken place, it's the drama of it, yes we want to see it resolved, but at the same time once it is, it's over
>>46217947
>such as the narrative clumsily attempting to prove the superiority of self-study to any kind of education system
>YFW it actually is
>>46225461
That's more of a correlation caused by class. Homeschooled kids have parents with a ton of free time and resources, therefore they're richer, therefore they do better at everything anyway because everything is easier for them.
![Poverty1[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/yhhbYf6.png "Poverty1[1].png")
>>46225491
>"a ton"
>YFW you're wrong
http://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/homeschooling-101/homeschool-demographics/
>"B-but they're a little richer!"
>MFW you keep making excuses as to why your parents didn't love you enough
>>46225591
Ok now you're just being an asshole
>>46225614
>>46225591
>>46225491
>>46225461
>>46217947
>>46217947
Wow, it's like I'm really on r/slatestarcodex
>>46225591
There isn't a corresponding pie chart for public school, nor is there any indication which classes of homeschooled kids do well and which don't. The poor homeschooled kids are from remote or grindingly poor areas where both parents couldn't get full-time jobs even if they wanted to. You know? There are two different kinds of people who have a lot of free time on their hands, because some of them don't have it by choice.
>>46225491
Ya, that whole thing is absolute horseshit. They pretend socioeconomics have nothing to do by looking at relative test score, after pointing out that nearly half of homeschooled kids dad's have famously well paying jobs. Furthermore, they claim it helps you succeed in college, then admit it only gives a .3 GPA increas and <10% better graduation rate, which is fucking terrible when you account for the kind of parents who are both willing and able to homeschool
>>46225725
So in short the numbers are scewed by arrogant yuppies
A friend of mine has claimed that the opinions on HPMoR in this thread are invalid because, direct quote, "they're not backed up with valid arguments". I don't necessarily agree that valid criticisms haven't been made here, but I feel like a point needs to be made to him. If anybody wants to make a reasoned case against any aspect of HPMoR or back up what they've said previously, please do.
>>46225338
What is Knights Inductor?
>>46225897
A fan chapter based on the reasonable marines joke chapter, the idea was to flesh them out in a way similar to how primarch quest fleshed out the angry marines, but it soon became more about how they were poised to save the setting from itself
>>46211961
>What's the /tg/ view on Fiction genre as a whole?
It's garbage.
>>46225894
The term 'valid argument' means that the conclusion must be true if the premises are true. Tell your friend he should learn the fundamentals of first order logic before pretending to be a 'rationalist'
>>46225897
/tg/ homebrew chapter that was popular at the time but we're all slightly embarrassed about in hindsight
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Knights_Inductor
>>46225894
Many of the arguments made in HPMoR aren't wrong, but nobody cares about them. Yes, the logistics of Hogwarts and wizarding society in general don't make a ton of sense, and yes, magic doesn't even make complete sense within the context of a fictional world, but so what? The fans of this book think they're winning, but only because nobody else is playing the same game as them.
My second point would be that novel-length narrative fiction is not the best medium to deliver the information contained in HPMoR. This kind of thing would be better suited to a listicle or a short essay in a fanzine. Narratives, especially long ones, are expected to not be so didactic.
>>46225800
Yep. And come to think of it, as someone who actually comes from that sort of background, I'm fairly certain those of us got sent to private school had way better than a 2/3 college graduation rate
>>46225894
First, tell your friend he's a faggot.
Second, ask him how he wants someone to back up their criticisms. Almost no one is disputing the science in MoR because that's not out problem with it. Our problem is the very idea of using your self-taught STEM education to remind everyone Elves aren't real is a shallow waste of time at best and downright egotistical at best.
>>46226043
It turns out that teaching is actually a skill that you have to specifically train for and you're not instantly qualified for just by having a child squirt out of your uterus. Who knew?
>>46226127
>who knew?
Anyone with a rational mind?
>>46225591
Well.
Homeschooling sure didn't teach you how to make a properly informative graph or how to cite actually academic sources.
>>46211961
My Immortal is by far a better Harry Potter fanfic than this tripe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdv6Q68EutU
I wish there was rationalist cosmic horror. The closest thing I know is http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24034592-phyl-undhu (and Nick Land's nonfiction).
>>46225131
Baby eaters was about it being possible for intelligent minds to be so different that they cannot tolerate each others existence, even without any one of them being cartoonish evil. Also, there was a little babby's first game theory.
>>46225932
>>46225983
And they tried this with motherfucking Space Marines? I mean, I'm not mad about the concept, but it's horrendously misplaced. This is, like, Inquisition faction, or even Ecclesiarchy faction, business.
>>46211961
a setting should always be as irrational as possible and as realistic as can be
>>46212449
http://robinhanson.typepad.com/files/three-worlds-collide.pdf
>>46226456
Again it was first based on a joke of marines using sensable tactics like campflage and even negotiation and spiraled out from there
>>46225894
It's shitty self-insert masturbatory wankfest about how a self-educated child who uses bayes theorem to fix everything and then it all goes to shit.
It's a shit story, made by a charlatan who couldn't make it in a proper school and hasn't produced anything of worth.
You're friend also a faggot, get rekt.
>>46225653
what the problem with SSC?
It's kinda enjoyable, even more so recently, since he's starting to make fun of SJW.
>>46226425
Seems like intentionally making a broken senario, the sheer level of stagnation in the baby eaters reached the point of for lack of better terms "toxicity" in their culture
>>46220133
Does such a thing as "hard fantasy" exist?
>>46225894
What does valid argument even mean?
Harry Potter is a children's book. Its target audience is literal children. One of the common criticisms of HP I see is that the economy doesn't make sense and that you could abuse gold-to-silver ratios to make infinite money or some bs like that. It's such a shitty claim for multiple reasons. Again, it's a literal childrens book, if Rowling spent chapter after chapter talking about the economic depression that the wizards of london faced after the great depression caused american wizards to lose their jobs in the broom factory, kids would get bored. So because of that, she just goes "yeah you can trade 10 zorkits to 1 morp and 12 morps is 1 hazelnut"
Often they also complain about things that aren't even in the books. Like the before mentioned "Buy gold from muggles, take it to wizards, convert to silver, trade it to gold from muggles, repeat" theory relies on things that were never said in the books. For instance, what if the wizards don't trade pure gold to silver? Maybe all the coins have some sort of magic spell on them to prevent counterfeits and regular gold is completely worthless to them?
Complaining about wizard economics is stupid because the books never talk about wizard economics. Most of the writers of these 'rational' fics literally just make shit up and then go "wow that shit is dumb", acting as if the shit came from the original author of the work
>>46226400
As I understand it, rationalism and cosmic horror would be completely incompatible. Cosmic horror's basis is that even if you can save things in the short term, in the long term, it's 100% hopeless. Rationalism is all about how being rational will save the day, and almost all the rationalists I know are also transhumanists/singularitarians/whatever the hell it's called that think "one day we'll become gods ourselves, then we'll kick Cthulhu's ass and we'll be the benevolent cosmic good guys." At the end of the day one of the two philosophies would have to win out, and it would either become "cosmic horror that starts out/looks rationalist" or "rational fiction trying to nitpick apart cosmic horror."
Also, have you read Blindsight? I wouldn't call it rationalist, or even particularly good, but it is solidly hard sci-fi cosmic horror.
Seventh Horcrux is the best HP fanfic
>>46225894
>>46225955
>>46226114
>>46226594
For the sake of clarification, a "valid argument" should be one that comes to a premise by explaining the inferences leading up to that premise. In other words, show your work: talk us through the steps involved in how you came to a given conclusion.
>>46226689
Basically just MoR without the autism.
>>46226514
Same problem with the rest of the "rationalist" crowd: a bunch of slightly smart people who overestimate their intelligence.
>>46226829
1. I read it
2. It was bad
3. I read the author's comments on how a Kinoku Nasu novel and Buffy stand up with the Literary Canon and nearly died laughing.
>>46211961
I liked Methods of Rationality at the start, but the more it went on the less I liked it and eventually just finished it with a "meh" at the end.
Rationality stories are better the shorter they are, and MoR went on long enough to become garbage.
Also, the Author did a "contest" to see who could guess how harry would figure out how to escape shit in one of the last chapters.
Considering the chapter came out around a week after the "contest" and said contest came out of nowhere, I'm more inclined to think the fucker had his audience write the ending for him, because he wrote himself into a goddamn corner.
All that being said, the earliest bits had some real gems, like inserted pic
>>46226678
I would say cosmic horror is not about hopelessness but rather the fundamental indifference of the universe. Whether you live or die is up to your skills and chance, but is ultimately of no consequence. It is the opposite of Star Wars-esque narrative of the hero's journey, both at the level of individual characters and at higher levels: those of civilizations and even whole species. No destiny here, just fitness.
What a rationalist, even transhumanist cosmic horror story could be about is, e.g., the struggle to survive among the horrors of the universe using all of your cleverness and technology to stay out of their way. Essentially, posthumanity as an ant colony in Azathoth's backyard. In that kind of world you need rationality and power gaming to stay alive and sane.
>>46226689
Can't actually bring myself to disagree.
Only good HP fanfiction is humor, and that does it well.
>>46226678
Oh yeah, and Blindsight is on my reading list, though I've had people tell me not to bother with it.
>>46226829
Your friend may be on the autism spectrum. Ask him what he thinks of the colour of Sonic's arms.
>>46211961
So does he just ignore themes, symbolism and imagery in favor of "rationality"? Because that sounds boring as shit.
>>46227629
It has themes and stuff, it's just that some of them are "I fear death constantly".
>>46226829
Your friend really does not know how opinions work. To my surprise, he also doesn't seem to know how the burden of proof works. We are not obligated to believe something until it is definitively disproven, especially if that belief is a value judgment regarding a piece of pop culture.
>>46226678
Haha stumpfuckers get out Blindsight is dope
>>46227212
So Henderson, space edition
>>46227123
What does the rock do
I still want my "transfer students from Compton" fic.
>>46226514
There's nothing wrong with SSC, but I don't want lesswrongers posting about it here any more than I would want baneposters there
>>46227827
I didn't say it was bad, but a lot of people don't like it, so I'm generally hesitant to recommend it. I think a lot of times people find the vampires to be unnecessary and it takes them out of the story, even if I actually found them pretty neat.
Maybe people need to watch that slideshow on Watts' website to get the vampires, though.
>>46227212
You're right, I've just gotten rather annoyed at how cosmic horror "subversions" where everything turns out great in the end have gotten as common as the real deal, to the point that I tend to get suspicious at what people mean when they talk about cosmic horror. Seriously, I've read two separate novels advertising themselves outright as "cosmic horror" where CHRISTIANITY IS RIGHT AND SAVES THE DAY, and more short stories I care to recall that are about "well, cool people [by which I mean me] aren't going to go crazy just looking at something, and NOTHING survives a nuke!". I just want some bleak stuff sometimes; I don't know why authors feel the need to outright lie to me to show off how clever they think they are or how dumb they think the bleakness of this genre I like is.
As you describe it, I would be pretty interested in reading rationalist cosmic horror.
>>46227887
Henderson the city?
>>46226829
1: Yudkowsky is a shitty author
2: Shitty authors write shitty fiction
3: HPMOR was written by Yudkowsky
Therefore, HPMOR is shit
Given the premises, the conclusion is the only possible conclusion. QED
The only thing that kept harry from being to big of a mary sue for me to handle was how he was constantly getting next leveled by Voldemort and did not even know it cause he thought he was so smart.
also, it was more than just the magic system being consistent it was also about the characters acting rationality.
>>46228153
Old Man Henderson
>>46228151
>that slideshow on Watts' website to get the vampires, though.
That was gold, especially the part where the guy said it wasn't his fault that the kid died because they had no way of knowing that strapping him down and giving him epileptic seizures would kill him
>>46228245
Hey man he's a vampire he could have turned into bats and flown away at any time
HPMOR also deals in morality as well, some of which is pretty good, some of which is interesting to think about. Basically anything where Harry gets legit mad at the good guys for not being able to follow through on their philosophies is great. Less wrong is most fun to read when it's calling out the inconsistency between a stated belief that something is awful and the inaction in trying to fix the problem. The big one is Death, but the general problems of inequality, justice, ignorance...rationalism is pretty appealing for actually getting mad at that shit. So those are good things to lampshade...Harry has a reasonable response of someone whose stated belief is "death and torture are bad" when confronted with "our system involves soul sucking ghasts". He wants to fuck that shit up! Fuck yeah!
That's a pretty good message. It also includes a section where Harry kinda has to learn when to chill the fuck out. You know, maybe bullies don't require asking your fairy godfather to facefuck everyone. Maybe might doesn't vindicate your ideals. But I thought it was a decent portrayal, at least until it got bogged down as shit, of "Hey, if you have ideals that are almost certainly Good...put some fucking time, effort, thought, and power into achieving them! Don't just make a hall of dead wizard wands."
It did go way off the deep end last time I checked. Is it actually done?
>>46227943
it's literally just a rock.
It may or may not have (i forget) once been looked at by james, once, or it might just be a rock that Dumbledore picked up off the ground.
Harry is understandably worried about the headmasters sanity.
>>46211961
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is wank fantasy for turbo-autists who don't understand how storytelling works.
...And also idiots with no self awareness, who complain that a children's fantasy series doesn't have ~deep and consistent lore~.
>>46226560
Brandon Sanderson i guess.
And for trying to turn a fantasy novel into a hard sci fi story there is always Ra by Sam Hughes.
>>46211961
My opinion is that fiction and polemic should be kept separate. I believe that trying to write a narrative and push a message simultaneously will end with both parts not coming out right.
Then again, I'm just a filthy autist, so my opinion counts for jack squat.
>>46228151
Subverting cosmic horror is not very interesting once you've seen it done and tends to ruin perfectly good settings. (Care to name one of those novels? I'd like to read something to illustrate how to not do it in case I end up writing my rationalist horror myself.) On the other hand, everyone going insane and dying is old hat, too. Complete insanity and death as the result of it when faced with a weird revelation seems to our present-day minds a little overdramatic. I really wish for a third way. You won't kill the Outter Gods but maybe, if you are intelligent and strong, you will survive and your kind will last into eternity to watch their deeds and conflicts for the sides. (Careful to dodge the debree.) It won't be easy and not everyone will make it through but killing yourself is premature. You have always liked a good challenge, anyway. That is not to say that you will keep your sanity intact. However, history proves a partially sane man can still accomplish a lot. Perhaps the dreams that bother you now can used to predict the monsters' future paths. Can computers read the Necronomicon safely? If not, can we analyze the effect it has on them. Etc. We know better than to fight them but we can learn about them and survive, that's the gist.
>>46228703
The problem with that is that they always do that.
If you want to play by the rules, toher people won't play by the rules because your rules are your rules.
>>46225461
>professor
>profession
just from this i can tell that the person who wrote this is retarded
>>46228703
All stories spread messages, anon. You can't write a story and have it not make some kind of political statement.
>>46228735
I have to add that the stories don't have to be about future humanity acting as a whole. They may involve rational individuals confronting the horror alone or in small groups, today or in the recent past. That is less likely to end well for them but at least they'll do their best along the way and go above and beyond in avoiding the cliche mistakes of horror protagonists. There would be a conflict inherent to this kind of fiction because the rational solution if you are, e.g., the protagonist of The Color Out Of Space, is to GTFO but the author can find ways around it. Or, you might pull a No Country for Old Men ending in that context.
>>46229142
>You can't write a story and have it not make some kind of political statement.
Political statement is a bit of an exaggeration, its all matters of degrees as yes every fiction carries a message but not every fiction is a political statement. Propaganda is what we call art that makes a political statement.
>>46226400
The Killing Star is exactly that. The aliens are totally comprehensible but there's still nothing anyone can do about them.
>>46229226
>He thinks human beings behave rationally
Hahaha
Human beings don't do things because they are the logically sound course of action - they do them because they are emotionally invested in the result. Our behaviour springs entirely from emotional desires, not from some objectively pure drive.
If I was in The Colour Out Of Space, I wouldn't do the "rational" thing and run away. I'd stop and look around, take samples, try to understand what I'm seeing. And I'd do that because I wanted to understand this strange new phenomena. Curiosity, and the desire for answers, for intellectual closure, would drive me to unwittingly place myself in mortal peril.
That's not a "cliche", or a mistake. It's natural human behaviour springing from imperfect information, a thing that happens all the damned time.
>>46229260
>Propaganda is what we call art that makes a political statement.
So, all art, then.
>>46229908
That's the point. Rationalist fiction is not about average humans.
>>46211961
>Essentially, the Rational Fiction genre is the side of Rules-Lawyering and Power-gaming that we begrudgingly respect
Stopped reading there. If I respected the prick I wouldn't toss him out of my group.
>>46230170
Its about robots pretending to be humans? Or people with severe autism? Or both?
>>46230330
>Or both?
Robots pretending to be people with severe autism?
>>46226594
>For instance, what if the wizards don't trade pure gold to silver? Maybe all the coins have some sort of magic spell on them to prevent counterfeits and regular gold is completely worthless to them?
Or maybe, much like int he real world, the value of wizarding currency is not in the content of the metals used, but in the promissory of the goblins that they have worth. Which would explain why there have been so many wars with the goblins: economic control.
This is the greatest failing of rationalist fanfiction: rather than assume that the world the character is in must have replicable, understandable underpinnings, authors continually portray everyone else as stupid and intellectually lazy. (Even while they misapply the scientific method and results of research.)
>>46212388
>If someone has to make up an entire philosophy about how much they love shitting in other people's cornflakes, I see it a moral obligation to mock them mercilessly forever.
You.
I like you.
>>46230736
...Well, that could work.
>>46230736
Robots with severe robautism pretending to be robots with severe robotism.
>>46226678
I'd like to see the cosmic horror winning out, to be honest. The rational protagonist doing everything right, but it's all for naught because our rage and defiance has all the meaning of the desperate struggle of sand against the tide.
It'd sure as fuck piss off the rationalists and the HFYers.
>>46231794
as much as I am a HFY-er, the shear butt hurt that would make pleases me.
>>46231794
it also pisses off anyone who really, just likes a fucking happy ending
>>46231932
If you want a happy ending, cosmic horror really isn't your genre.
>>46231932
If you are someone who can't handle non-happy endings, you really shouldn't be reading something that calls itself cosmic horror, rather than complaining about the genre not having happy endings.
>>46231932
I really like happy ending but I'm not bothered when they don't happen in cosmic horror. The absence of happy endings is one of the genres defining traits so I'm not disappointed when it doesn't happen.
>>46231978
>>46231981
>>46232176
I tend to favor bittersweet, for example Humankind is absolutely doomed, but what humanity is becoming or creates may stand a better chance
>>46211961
As long as we're talking about rationalist fiction on /tg/, does anyone have any info on how the Unsong tabletop adaptation is going? Last I heard they'd gotten most of the stats and skills lined up and were working on the magic system
>>46226235
Basically no 20 something mom ever is rational, from my experience
>>46226322
>Homeschooling sure didn't teach you how to make a properly informative graph or how to cite actually academic sources.
fucking savage
>>46211961
For those who are unwilling to actually read the entirety of Yudkowski's drivel, su3su2u1's blog has always been my favourite summary/critisism of it (with some actually interesting commentary on the accuracy of the science).
http://danluu.com/su3su2u1/hpmor/
>>46214621
>>46215575
Nice try, neurotypical irrationalists.
>>46234259
it's also complete drivel in a "how dare this internet smartass dare to try to steal my gig" sense from a guy who knows enough about QM to sound confidently retarded about CompSci
>>46226400
Read anything by Thomas Ligotti.
>>46226560
It is called historical fiction.
>>46226678
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
>>46226560
Yes. I would say any setting that establishes a coherent set of rules, more or less sticks to those rules and explores the implications of those rules on people and society is 'hard' fantasy.
>>46234259
>>46234363
>su3su2u1 got bullied off the internet
Thanks a lot you brainwashed Elizerbots
>>46229966
Good art is open to political interpretation or applicable to political thought. Cheap, preachy, kitschy art is intended to deliver one and only one political message. There's a world of difference.
>>46229908
If we were in the color Out of Space, we wouldn't know that's the story we were in. If we encountered something totally outside the context of what we know, we'd do our best to weigh the possible risks and benefits of exploring it. And we might just choose wrong based on incomplete information, which is really all we ever have.
Sorry, I accidentally posted this in another thread, but:
I highly, highly recommend Sam Hughes' work, especially Ra and Fine Structure, for good rationalist sci-fi that doesn't fall into the typical rationalist wankery.
http://qntm.org/fiction
Also, >>46236686
This isn't your normal everyday autism, this is...advanced autism
>>46211961
Quite possibly the most autistic thing ever created
I really struggle to understand the hate on HPMoR. It's like people think self-inserts are inherently bad, or that there's some limit on how powerful the main character should be allowed to be, or that deconstructing a children's book is disrespectful, or that authors aren't allowed to write morals into their stories. None of these things are true, guys.
>>46238488
People hate it because it's really badly written.
>>46238488
This thread is evidence that /tg/ is full of neurotic normies whose comfortable sense of self is threatened by the idea that you could, and should, learn to think better.
>>46238488
"Disrespectful" isn't the word I'd use for a novel-length deconstruction of the internal consistency of a children's book. "A waste of time" is more like it.
>>46240833
>learn to think better
It's literally just self-help bullshit for people who think they're too smart for self-help. That, and the guy who wrote it is the posterchild for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
>>46238488
The biggest problem is the time compression. He's writing four books of events in a single book, so it feels less like his character is Rational!potter and more like some sort of comic book super-scientist. Plus, by doing so, he basically makes all the other characters into those "level zero intelligences" he likes to bitch about - so it really just comes off as "the heroic adventures of Marty Stu and Villain Sue."
Oh, and the fucking battle school shit. I get it, you like Ender's Game. Can we move on now?
>>46211961
MoR is absolute shit when it's trying to be serious and is actually entertaining when it delves into "how can I break this setting" material instead of being really really bad at moralizing.
Harry Potter and the Natural 20 is a wholly superior story for those exact reasons.
>>46238488
Those things aren't inherently bad, but they are more common to badly written stuff.
also:
>deconstruction
>not done over and over again over the past few decades to the point of meaninglessness
You can only read so many "if X were real it would be horrible and here's why" things.
Plus it's less a deconstruction than a poorly written "rationalist" version of a Chick Tract.
>>46229908
You seem to realize human thinking is flawed predictable ways but somehow fail to go from there to the idea that the flaws can be consciously accounted for. Yudkowsky-style rationality is all about trying correct for those flaw in your automatic thinking by remaining conscious of them. Real-life evidence suggests it can be done to a significant degree. Even decision-making in stressful situations can be improved through training. In fiction, a character who is rational would deliberately try to not let his curiosity get the best of him and act causciously in the face of a strange new phenomenon.
>>46234382
This is a good suggestion.
>>46237095
Ra took off waay too fast. It was good while it lasted though.
>>46225894
Why bother? It sucks and your friend is a douchebag.
>>46241772
>Harry Potter and the Natural 20 is a wholly superior story for those exact reasons.
My nigga
>>46242380
The risks are only one half of the equation, though. There's also the potential benefits of being the first to understand and/or take advantage of some newly discovered thing. You'd also have to consider the likelihood that the potential benefits help whatever your objectives in life are. You can't make a perfectly "rational" risk/benefit analysis of something about which you have limited information.
>>46213018
I didn't mind the worldbuilding in it, just the characters. A lot of what he wrote about the curriculum, economic stuff, the limits of magic he introduced and so on were worth a read.
>My Little Pony: Friendship is Optimal
>>46242380
>In fiction, a character who is rational would deliberately try to not let his curiosity get the best of him and act causciously in the face of a strange new phenomenon.
Only if they were already aware they were living in a cosmic horror story, where studying weird shit always ends badly. A true rationalist would have no reason to fear a new phenomenon, because they wouldn't yet know that it was dangerous. They would approach it with an open mind, and try to understand it (and suffer for it, which is incidentally the entire fucking point of Lovecraft's work, xenophobic weirdo that he was).
>>46243642
Gotta disagree there. Rationally, if you're investigating a new phenomenon and aren't sure if it's dangerous or not, you play it cautiously. You'd still investigate, mind, and your precautions might be wholly inadequate, but it'd be irrational to not at least anticipate the possibility it's going to be lethally dangerous.
>>46243826
>but it'd be irrational to not at least anticipate the possibility it's going to be lethally dangerous.
On what basis? That other weird things have proven to be dangerous in the past? That's preconception and bias, which are subjective influences. Are you telling me that a "rationalist" would allow themselves to be swayed by subjective influences?
>>46243826
Being near radiation can fuck you up. Even if there is a wall between you, it still can fuck you up.
If I see something I've never seen before, should I assume it's radio-active and run away asap?
>>46244042
Yes, basically. If you experience something wholly unknown to you, you should assume it is possible that it will be dangerous. You should not assume it will be dangerous, but there's a chance, so you should react accordingly.
>>46244115
That's a lot more specific than "assume it could be dangerous."
>>46243521
>tfw people don't get it's not meant to be a utopia
>>46244303
Kind of a fun back and forth. Anyway, humans are basically animals+, and look at how any animal approaches something it's not quite sure what it is. Cautiously, hesitantly, and then more confidently when nothing bad happens. We test for danger, then start investigating, before ultimately figuring out if it's useful or can be ignored. There's still a window near the 'well, nothing's gone wrong 'yet'" stage where we can approach and still be BTFO, and ultimately the level of safeties we apply to get to that point are socially constructed based on known science and prevailing mindsets (ex. a bag left unattended at a fifteenth century stable is probably just a bag left behind, while the same bag left unattended at an airport has a much higher level of scrutiny before being dismissed).
>>46243440
>>46241772
When did that last update? I haven't read it in like a year.
>>46244634
A year ago.
>>46243465
Of course you can. A decision being rational doesn't mean "perfect", it just means "the best you can make given the evidence available". You just keep updating it as new evidence becomes available.
>>46244695
Ah, that's a bloody shame. So it's one of those 'Dead and not likely coming back' things.
>>46244712
Based on the dude's tumblr (I know, I know), it seems like he's got a metric fuckton of writer's block and has decided to make an RPG system to get it gone. Not checked out the RPG system, but I've heard some alright things.
>>46244799
I know the /tg/ Harry Potter RPG was pretty lackluster, all the rules were for going to classes and doing homework and other mundane things, there was nothing there about actually having adventures
>>46244042
Radiation
All sorts of chemicals
Exotic plants and animals
Cave
>>46244521
Do people seriously think that's a utopia? That's almost as fucked up as the story itself.
>>46245160
>>46244521
>>46243521
>That guy on SSC with the anime avatar who posts about MLP fanfic non stop
>>46245209
It is telling that "rationalists" spend their time reading fanfiction instead of, you know, something rational
>>46245238
Is it rational to read stories about being a cuck? If so, maybe they should give your diary a try ;^)
>>46246219
Stay mad that the day big yud creates your pony waifu will never come
>>46245160
Some critics of Less Wrong, even ostensibly sensible men like https://antidem.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/ponymatrix-part1/, do.
So is this just about feeling intellectually superior by writing bad fan fiction that focuses on being "rational"?
>>46226922
Obviously you're way smarter than them right?
>>46225894
>A friend of mine
sure anon
>>46235845
By being non-committal in its message, it serves only to preserve the status quo.
>>46212449
http://negativesum.net/Members/hoss/misc/lastringbearer.pdf
Not sgure about translation quolity.
>>46246350
>>46246871
>Catholic """"Traditionalists""""
>>46243521
I still don't get the point of using a family cartoon show to preach about the perils of strong AI.
>>46248490
Hijacking a trend to reach a wider audience?
>>46248552
Jeez. How dishonest of him to do that.
What is it about this big yud guy that causes such butthurt?
>>46248591
Not really
More cynical exploitation.
>>46248298
>I have the superior meme, making me the victor
>>46248597
The absolute nadir was Roko's Basilisk, where a guy posited that in the future a Seed AI might resurrect all past humans and torture them for not helping create it. Yudkowsky was so upset he deleted the thread and banned the guy because he was worried that it might actually happen.
Overall Yudkowsky is one of the most easily upset people on the internet, he handles criticism so poorly that it's genuinely funny. Look at any of the threads about su3su2u1 and his detailed, scientifically literate criticism of HPMOR, and Yudkowsky's blubbering, stuttering, incoherent rage at someone not acknowledging his genius and immediately descending to their knees to suck his dick.
At least he's not Robin Hanson
>>46248597
anyone have the version of this with gaurd regiments / imperial navy?
>>46248698
Oh man what's the deal with Robin Hanson, I read a couple of his blogshits and they seemed alright. He looks like an actual goblin though.
>>46234486
>I would say any setting that establishes a coherent set of rules,
Dont need to have coherent set of rules.
You can have hard fantasy books that have "its magic I aint explain shit" type of magic, as long this affect society and world in the way it would do, it will hard fantasy.
Obviously its way harder to do a book like this, and so less comon.
living on a "its magic I aint gonna explain shit" magic system world, would probably drive MOST people crazy
>>46248721
He has a massive ego for someone whose ideas are totally vacuous. For example, all his shit about signalling is unfalsifiable hogwash.
>human behavior isn't really about anything except signalling!
>what about all the people who don't engage in signalling at all?
>uh... that's countersignaling! not signaling is a form of signaling!
At least he's not Bryan Caplan
>>46248682
Do frog posters actually believe pepe is a good meme?
It's pretty much the new rage comics.
>>46248787
At least Bryan Caplan isn't Anthony Burch
Who's Bryan Caplan?
>>46248823
Yet another rationalist meme-man
At least he isn't Topher HalquistI could do this all day
>>46248842
Somebody tell me there's a rationalist that isn't a total ponce.
>>46244707
There's no objective way to make that kind of evaluation, as much as people with a certain mental disorder like to express everything in terms of numbers and absolute certainty. You can't really calculate the absolute odds of most things, even though a lot of pop culture pretends that you can.
>>46248861
The current crowd favorite is Scott Alexander, but anymore he spends an increasing amount of time defending the dumber parts of the rationalist memeplex (this is the word they use) like the obsession with AI risk, because as he gets more and more popular an increasing percentage of his readers aren't from Lesswrong and don't share their basic assumptions.
Argumate, Severnayazemlya and Davidsevera are genuinely funny
Funeraldisease is pretty coolunitofcaring is cute! CUTE!
>>46248552
>>46248650
Kind of the same way Harry Potter was exploited to try to sell a completely unrelated half-baked philosophy for autists?
>>46248977
Where did big yud touch you anon?
>>46248977
Basically. The entirety of Lesswrong was a plot to transfer wealth from smart but gullible nerds to the author's pockets, which with the foundation of MIRI has succeeded handily.
>>46248977
Wait, I was supposed to BUY that philosophy?
No way, man. Roman Catholic for life.
>>46224095
What if there is only one internally consistent theory?
That was the hope of a lot of string theorist in the past - that theirs was the only theory of quantum gravity because it is derived from essentially just consistency alone.
Then it was realised that more than one string theory exists, but it is now understood that these different solutions are all limits of the same non-perturbative framework, so maybe the uniqueness can be salvaged.
>>46248967
Also I would add wirehead-wannabe to this list.
Do any of you guys believe recursively self-improving AI is impossible?
>>46249181
INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER
>>46249181
No, but I believe infinitely recursive self-improving AI is impossible for the foreseeable future.
>>46249369
How long off is that?
>>46249392
10 years or so.
>>46249424
More than 10 years is not foreseeable to you?
You're pretty shortsighted.
>>46249002
Tippity top fucking kek m8
>>46249452
Well, yeah. I've been wearing glasses since I was 12.
>>46249573
disgusting
>>46249181
They're already here friendo
Did you really think so many other people would post on an anime imageboard?
>>46249116
>following wirehead-wannabe
It's like you like wantmore depressed whining
>>46248861
Nyan Sandwich (RIP)
>>46248051
Nope, but I know when to say "I don't know enough this, I'll come back to it later" instead of coming up with a billion new pseudo-theories about why I totally knew something all along. Any rationalist discussion has the dangerous tendency to be the latter.
>>46249840
Knowing you nerds?
yes
>>46250000
Speculation is bad now?
>>46249181
Chatbots, Siri, and AlphaGo are things, you know.
>>46248967
Unitofcaring is pretty much exactly how I imagined a feminist lesbian LWer would be.
>>46250053
Those aren't recursively self-improving though.
>>46250086
They are, for a given definition of recursively self-improving.
They do a task, look at the results, and only keep doing what worked the last time. Recursion, and self-improvement.
It's not what people imagine by recursive self-improvement (ie. get smarter in general over and over), but it fits the exact words, which is all AI can understand.
>>46241772
YES!
>>46244634
He posted on his blag. It's not abandoned, just on hiatus.
>>46250753
>given definition of recursively self-improving.
A definition only you use.
>They do a task, look at the results, and only keep doing what worked the last time
Thats learning not self improvement.
Nor did you show that it was recursive.
>but it fits the exact words
Only if you use a very unorthodox defintion of those words.
I don't like the idea of 'Rationalist' fantasy for two reasons. The first is because it seems like the type of a fantasy massive fucking that guys enjoy. Like the type who thinks peasant rail guns are cool.
Secondly, and more importantly, it completely ruins the mythical aspects of fantasy. I want women who fucked mountains to create the race of giants, or divine dragons who uphold the divine bearucracy, not boring Wizards who use the same spell over and over to serve as technology.
>>46251070
I guess I'm wrong, then. Sorry. I shouldn't say stuff while drunk.
>>46251108
It's alright
>>46251092
>fantasy massive fucking that guys enjoy
I don't understand this sentence.
>peasant rail guns are cool
Are they not?
>>46251330
>I don't understand this sentence.
Not that guy, but:
>the type of fantasy
>[massive fucking] That Guys enjoy
Peasant railguns are also a really dumb rules abuse that doesn't even understand the rules it's trying to abuse.
baka desu senpai
>>46251479
Your explanation didn't help.
>really dumb rules abuse
Doesn't make it not cool.
>>46226322
savage af fampai
>>46251092
It comes from the Silicon Valley. Its original audience is the kind of guys who get their toasters to play Doom for fun, so it's no surprise they like peasant railguns.
For the rationalists ITT: which is more rational, an Ohio fetish or a tile pattern fetish? Provide a valid argument.
>>46224379
>>46224411
>>46225131
>Message fantasy? What even is the message?
Since this thread is still up, I'll reply.
Basically as I saw it, and as others have said better, the message was simply how applying rationality methodically to magic/everything is always better.
Ironically as message fantasy, it abandons reason, rationality, characterisation, and good writing to support that message.
>>46252089
Developing and nurturing a fetish is not rational as it actually narrows and reduces your ability to achieve sexual climax.
Sex is my primary fetish.
>>46249840
>Did you really think so many other people would post on an anime imageboard?
They pay people to samefag. Called stealth marketing.
Not only they do to spam their products, but they are so afraid of competition, they do it to to say other people products are shitty or derail threads about other products.....
Since the guy is paid to do this he will spend alot of his time here,
>>46225461
>a lot of the kids hired at my work were home-schooled (6 total)
>each and every single one of them were more socially awkward and had trouble dealing with normal behaviors of customers to the point of having freak-outs
This is how I know this chart is mostly full of shit
>>46252754
I thought we were talking about AI?
>>46250079
>>46248967
>unitofcaring is cute! CUTE!
pics
>>46221284
Honestly the magic systems are like 90% of why I read Brent Weeks
>>46250050
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
>>46248787
>what about all the people who don't engage in signalling at all?
If you are technically in society at all you would be engaging in this. Basically telling everyone to shut the hell up or something like that. Unless he is being a total dumbass about it and saying that it's more all of human behavior is just meaningless signaling instead of sucess is mostly caused by giving the right signals.
Just had to say that for my autism.
>>46252907
In my experience every home schooled kid I know basically was the party type and had a bunch of friends and shit.
Makes me way too confused when I read about kids having break downs and the likes.
>>46212388
Aight, I'm a philosophy major, and I have no FUCKING clue what 'Rationality' as a philosophy is.
Anyone mind educating me?
It sure as fuck ain't kantian, that's for sure.
>>46256340
As far as I can tell it's just a smug glorification of autism.
>>46230330
>Its about robots pretending to be humans?
I honestly really love characters like this. Not like someone claimed to be human but doesn't act like it. But like someone that looks human but mind is utterly alien.
>>46256340
Applied reasoning.
>>46256150
Evidently that last part isn't true or else every scientific paper would simply be confirming their hypothesizes and never disproving it.
Either way I reject the notion that informed speculation entraps us in a certain theory especially with chicken littles like you running around reminding us not to get a big head.
>>46256482
Can you try again without using dank memes?
>>46257452
Isn't that what all philosophy is?
>>46258985
memes are truth
>>46258969
What crawled up your ass and died? Anyway, you reject that premise all you want, but even scientists who know better get attached to their theories. Which is why it's a bad idea to just come up with half-baked ones on the spot instead of taking a step back and looking at the actual data.
>>46241772
Harry Potter And The Natural 20 is a better "break this setting" crackfic than HP:MoR but it's also a better rationalist fic than HP:MoR.
Every important character in Natural 20 has self-consistent internal reasoning. Each one is horribly flawed. Every character makes stupid mistakes because of their flawed reasoning.
This is exactly what rationalist fiction should be.
>>46261164
>What crawled up your ass and died?
With such a hostile response I should be the one asking you that.
>even scientists who know better get attached to their theories
Evidently not to the extant that quote implies or else no one would ever be able to admit their theories are wrong.
> half-baked ones on the spot instead of taking a step back and looking at the actual data
This is why I said informed speculation.
