How should ranges work in RPGs?
> GURPS method versus D&D method
In GURPS you get a flat penalty to hit based on range. Shooting at someone 10 yards away will always be at a -3, shooting at someone 100 yards away will always be at a -6, etc.. This is realistic, and the good kind in my opinion. However, it somewhat minimizes the effectiveness of, say, a pistol versus a rifle, or a longbow versus a crossbow. As opposed to D&D where different weapons have different range increments, or Savage Worlds where the three range brackets depend on teh weapon used.
> Units or Abstract?
Most "simulationist" and "gamist" games go with real measurements but some go with "Short" "Long" etc for ranges. FATE has "zones" to abstractify distance. How do you like to do it? I kind of like the "okay there's two guards about 50 yards out, what do you do?" as opposed to "eh theyre like, medium range" because the former evokes a 90s-style GURPS-ish / AD&D-ish roleplay feel in me. But both have their merits.
Which do you prefer?
>>46180784
I like range increments to a degree, as they do help differentiate ranges between weapons. When you're talking realism AND gameplay, having both an old smoothbore pistol and a modern rifle take ranged penalties at a similar flat rate is going to have you run into problems.
It does depend on exactly what you're trying to emulate and how much you're willing to abstract. First you've got the actual spread of the weapon in question for firearms, then you've got the ballistic arc of the weapon, then you've got to account for the accuracy of the actual shooter/thrower.
The shooter's accuracy is represented within their own statistics block via their character attributes or skills or whatever. The weapon's spread is very negligible for a lot of firearms at close range, so you could absract a weapon that fires a little off kilter by giving them slightly heavier penalties for shooting at longer range increments or just shorten then existing range increments. Then the ballistic range increments themself.
>>46180784
Does that gun have two magazines?
>>46180784
GURPS method is counter acted by the weapons effective range and accuracy. A weapon has its own penalty increase ALONG with the shooter penalty increase. So a rifle with 100/1000 range will have -4 at 100 yards, but a pistol with 80/600 range will have -5 at 100 yards.
And the rifle gets a higher accuracy bonus for aiming which counter acts distance.
Depends on what you want to do with your game and the feel you are going for.
Personally, I'm fine with most ways to handle distances other than "zones" or "range increments". Having played with those, pseudo-abstract combat with that shit just isn't fun to me. Give me something that can be played on a grid or scribbled on a sheet of paper any day of the week over that.
>>46180949
The foregrip holds a spare.
>>46180949
one is not effectively inserted, just there for quick reload.
>>46180784
A note about the GURPS method. The penalties assigned are purely based on the difficulty with making the shot, independent of the weapon you're using. This is compensated in weapons that are effective at long ranges such as rifles by those weapons granting an accuracy bonus that generally cancels out penalties up to their effective range. It's pretty much a more roundabout way to range bands by weapon used in other systems.
>>46180784
I just have 2 firearm ranges in my game:
>Indoors: good for pistols/SMGs/carbines/shotguns/grenades
>Outdoors: good for assault rifles/sniper rifles/hunting rifles
>>46180784
FATE zones are really suprisingly good for portraying frantic close quarters firefight because of how fast and deadly. I rule SMGs, pistols, shotguns, and the like as attacking at same zones or adjacent ones. Long modern guns like assault rifles or marksman rifles get an additional zone of range, and one can use the shoot skill to grant additional zones of range, as my zones are pretty small (room to room).
>>46180903
>When you're talking realism AND gameplay, having both an old smoothbore pistol and a modern rifle take ranged penalties at a similar flat rate is going to have you run into problems.
I forgot to mention, each weapon has an accuracy in GURPS which you get when you aim it. So aiming and shooting takes the weapons accuracy into account.
>>46181761
I like it.
>>46181938
How exactly do the zones work? I figured it was, some weapons get a bonus to attack certain zones, or something.
>>46180784
I just use this desu.
>>46180979
If you're shooting that pistol at something 100 yd away, you're also in the 1/2D range.
I think how Savage Worlds does it is fine, at least for me. I'm not the type to sperg out about weapon accuracy or realism, but a bit of tactical granularity I can get my teeth into doesn't go amiss from time to time.
But then I like FATE and FFG Star Wars' abstracted range bands too, it all depends on what I'm up for at the time.
>>46180784
This is good but even many GURPS players have switched to abstract range rules like in FATE. (The rules are in one of the Action supplements.)
If you use minis, fixed range tables work well. If not, or if you don't want to get bogged down in the measurements, abstract ranges are best. As you point out, you can also just eyeball it and use estimations with the Speed/Range table. But in that case, you need discplined GMs and players who won't try to split hairs.
>>46181973
Nope. Fate is heavily abstracted. A zone is a colloquial space within an area that doesn't have specific measurements. For instance, a whole football field might be one zone called "Football Field." Maybe you've cut it into two zones because it is a large space, so you say that there are two zones next to each other within the football field called "West Side of the Field" and "East side of the field" respectively. Maybe the bleachers are another zone. Maybe you make a zone for each ten yards. It's sort of a play by ear thing.
For example, I run a game that is ostensibly about SWAT officers, so my players spend a lot of times in indoor firefights. I generally split rooms into different zones, with open clear areas being single zones, but larger areas (like parking lots) split as needed regardless of how clear they are just due to sheer size.
The point is that you find what you're actually trying to accomplish specially and use common sense to split it accordingly. Maybe if you're in a combat that is a duel between swashbucklers nobody will really move, so there isn't that much point in there being separate zones at all. It also makes it so that the GM can whip shit up on the fly really easily. Say somebody wants to mix things up in that same scenario and asks the GM if he can kip up into the rafters of whatever building they are in during the duel. The GM can just say "Yeah, you are in [The Rafters] which is a separate zone above [The Room You Were Fighting In]."
>>46184172
Wow that sounds really shitty.
>>46184172
Interesting. I don't see the mechnical effect though? Does it take a whole turn to move from zone to zone? I know fate cmobat is really abstract, it's what I kind of like about it. Does it just rule who can interact with what?
>>46183337
>but even many GURPS players have switched to abstract range rules like in FATE
Not really. I haven't been in a single game in the last few years where tactical shooting wasn't one of the books mentioned as being important.
>>46180784
As a shooter I can say that the range depends mostly on the gun. Shooting a target at 25m with a pistol is more difficult than shooting a target at the same distance with a rifle or a carbine. Pistol qualifications are usually made at 25m, while rifle qualification is done at 300m.
I'd do my range increments like this:
1-5m
1/4 RNG(m)
1/2 RNG(m)
RNG(m)
2 RNG(m)
RNG depends on the weapon.
Pistol 50m
SMG 100 to 150m depending on caliber and weapon
Rifle 200 to 400m depending on caliber and weapon
Sniper rifle 500 to 800m depending on caliber and weapon
Anti-material rifle 1000 to 1500m depending on caliber and weapon
Machinegun 400 to 800m depending on caliber and type
Heavy machinegun 1000m
Rocket launcher 200 to 400m
Grenade launcher 100m (1000m for Mk.19)
>>46185463
>shadowrun
very
very creative
>>46185667
Slightly modified Cyberpunk 2020 actually. It goes quite into detail and is probably not needed. Shadowrun (I only know 1st ed.) had a similar system but range depended on the type rather than on the model. So all pistols had the same range, all SMG's had the same range, etc. no regard to caliber or weapon size.
Anyway most game simulate shooting extremely bad. They base the shot difficulty mainly on the distance instead of on the shooter's actions (is he taking time to aim, is he running for cover and shooting, etc.). Movement become usually only a modifier, while it should be the basis and range should give a modifier. In this regard the best system I found was Advanced Recon.
