Besides elves, what are the worst fantasy race to have been used in a tabletop setting?
Pic related.
>>46171112
Kender.
Catfolk, merfolk, anything ending in folk really. It's like steampunk levels of laziness.
Tieflings and Kender too.
>>46171146
>>46171160
Way to remind me of the existence of Kender, now I feel less obligated to reread my fucking books. Griffins are also shit.What's wrong with mermaids?
Humans.
>>46171146
fpbp
>>46171228
Humans as the all-around race when you got so many other "major" races is horseshit but humans themselves are okay.
That being said, half-human half-anything is a terrible idea. The idea that races can interbreed without the production of mules being the best possible outcome is itself a shit concept.
Warcraft gnomes and goblins.
On a larger scale, any short, wacky, zany tinkerer race.
>>46171307
Im just going by what I have seen from players.
Anyone who demands to play a human or throws a fit if they are not an option is the biggest red flag to me.
>>46171192
>mermaids
People try to cram them into the box of a normal society and it just doesn't work without careful thought.
They try to add all the hallmarks of other races or civilizations, but many of these things just don't work underwater without some massive shoehorning.
Metalworking, agriculture, alcohol, all kinds of shit, even down to giving them a spoken language comprehensible by humans or giving them tits.
And yes, I know there are ways that we modern humans could solve many of these problems, or I could handwave that one wizard took a huge interest in developing mermen society but that's the kind of overexplaining you have to do to justify mermen.
As PC's they're only good for fully underwater adventures. That fact also makes it difficult to have them as friendly NPCs.
Plus I've noticed they attract the weirdest people, it's like pseudo magical realm, like how some girls are like SUPER into fairies.
Merfolk are better as nigh-mindless creatures, or incredibly primitive sentient ones.
I mean they're like large fish that can grab you and wield improvised weapons, that's enough on its own.
>>46171338
>any short, wacky, zany tinkerer race
yeah fuck gnomes
>>46171112
Garden gnome.
Had a player Silent Still cast all his Sorcerer spells as a garden gnome.
>I cast Fireball
>But I don't say anything
>And I don't move
>Remember guys
>I'm just a lawn ornament
>HEHEHE
>>46171490
Are you sure you hate the race itself or just the faggot playing as a member of it?
>>46171373
It's like you know you don't have a leg to stand on here.
You've literally made no case against humans, and instead made a subjective and anecdotal argument based on people who play them, without outlining any kind of reasoning at all as to why humans are bad in fantasy settings.
Like you just wanted to be edgy and contrarian somehow.
Humans are the easiest for humans to empathize with, understand, and roleplay as. Big fucking surprise.
>>46171499
The only people who play gnomes are faggot-ass players.
>>46171112
I was about to post a few, but I realized it wasn't specified to PC races. There's some races PCs should never be allowed to play.
Anyway, in that vein: Dragonborn, Angels, Demons, Liches, Vampires, and any flavor of the week supernatural young-adult romance novel's race or those that are canonically extremely powerful, extremely rare of explicitly evil, or are beholden to other huge setting restrictions.
I'm a fan of homebrew, and I'm okay with beast races as long as you ain't some form of anthro-furry sex freak.
Dwarves.
>>46171540
This thread is really just for fantasy races in general.
Take Redwall for example.
Good race: Badgers
Bad race: Otters
>>46171541
DON'T
>>46171582
Otters are a good race though. I think you meant Stoats, Ferrets, weasels, Wolverines, and polecats.
>>46171604
Not in Redwall
>>46171112
Aasimar, Tieflings, Dragonborn. I get the idea of wanting to have an extraplanar character without a boatload of power strapped on, but frankly that boatload of power is essential to defining Angels, Demons, and Dragons. All you're doing is diluting something cool down to something not as cool, and attracting special snowflake types just makes them worse.
I think a better option is to have Angel, Demon and Dragon as PC classes, and players who want to play that race can just run the class for it assuming it's appropriate to the campaign setting.
>>46171633
Have you read the book by any chance? Have you read any Redwall book? Otters are ALWAYS good guys.
>>46171112
dwarfs
>>46171112
Wraeththu or however they are supposed to be spelled.
>>46171677
wrong image.
>>46171677
Who said they weren't the good guys? They're just a shit race in Redwall.
>>46171783
If you're gonna use bad when you mean to say shit then say shit in the first place. And how are they a shit race in Redwall?
>>46171515
You sound a little miffed there, pal.
Undead. They don't even logically make sense.
>>46171828
Stuff normally found in a medieval-esque fantasy setting is not where you look to find logically-sound races, anon.
>>46171338
Yeah, fuck dwarves
>>46171515
Sounds like you weren't allowed to play a human at some point.
>>46171828
>Created by unholy magic
>Created by regretful souls
>Created by god
What explanations for undead have you seen that don't logically make sense?
kitsune
>>46172077
No they aren't
>>46171828
Undead isn't so much a race with its own culture, aesthetic, and language as it is a one that needs its own stats or at least its own template.
Unless you straight up have an undead formed culture like Forsaken in WoW.
>>46172251
>Kitsune AND Lamia at the same time
Anything that comes from the ice/snow region, especially if they go by the "the cold makes us strong and hardy!" bullshit
>>46172820
So, you're against having Russians in your games?
>>46172820
But those are actual regions with people. They tend to be pretty fucking backwards for the most part because agriculture and technology are hard as fuck in those regions.
>>46173233
So... just a flavor of Barbarian?
>>46171515
Or it could be HFY faggots shitting up games as usual.
>>46171373
What games are you playing that you feel you have to forbid people from playing humans?
Granted I can see it would be an issue if you'd gathered a group to play Vampire or Bunnies and Burrows.
>>46171112
Elves were never bad.
>>46171914
>dwarves
>wacky
>zany
Maybe if the only dwarves you know are the Dorf Fortress maymay version
>>46173637
In my decade of gaming I have not come across this to any significant extent, from players at least. Dwarf, elf, and dragon wank feels way more common. Dwarf taking the cake because less people call them out on it. HFY only seems so popular on /tg/ because Warhammer is also big here.
>>46171112
>Pic related.
FU OP, sluts are one of the all-time classic fantasy races.
>>46171192
What's wrong with Griffin's?
>>46171112
Humans
>>46174115
>*fantasy* race
>>46174232
Exactly. Humans are not a "fantasy" race, so they don't belong in fantasy.
>>46171146
I was about to suggest something else, but no way anything can hold a candle to the pure awfulness of kenders.
>>46174332
Fantasy games, maybe. If you're telling a story you often use humans if you want your fantasy to seem fantastic instead of just weird and it helps you avoid "when everyone is super..." Even with games sometimes you need to compare and constrast reality with fantasy. So this is wrong.
For me personally I don't like traditional races like dwarves and elves, they are boring and over done unless the game us a legit tokien game, I'm which case they are pretty cool.
Animal people races are usually pretty good but it depends on how many there are. I can buy a race of monkey men or bunny men in a setting, but if there is a race of animals for every fucking thing I start to not like it.
At this point I have such am issue with deciding what races besides humans I'm just stopping listing them. From now on you've got to meet a member of another race to play as one, that's my race list.
>>46174596
Things get more interesting if you introduce races that aren't meant to/ are too different to be playable. I mean things like Mr.Saturn. Try playing one of those outside of a rules lite system.
>>46174596
>monkey men
You mean regular human?
>>46174870
No, I mean Wukong. But in my setting humans are descended from monkey men with most of their hair burned off and ashed white.
>>46171541
>>46171601
Dwarves are objectively the worst fantasy race.
Entire lands are ruined in their wake, left barren and lifeless after they have had every possible resource raped from them. Their industries pollute the air with smog. Their warlike ways have seen millions slaughtered in the name of their greed. And they always, inevitably, dig too deep and unleash a scourge of evil upon the world.
There are none worse than the Dwarves.
>>46171112
Fantasy race?
Humans, hands down.
Followed by any I can't believe it's not human.
Humans aren't a fantasy race and are Shorthand for the author gave up on race craft and just decides to throw a none of the above option in.
The human speciality of diversity and adaptability is about the worst cop out possible.
Either a setting should be humans as exclusive Humanoid, or no humans at all.
>>46175099
The best dwarves I've known of were spiritualists who lived in the hot desert sands for innumerable generations after being driven from their original mountain homes by a great evil, they had nothing to do with forging or crafting but instead usually traveled as nomads quelling malevolent ghosts and speaking wisdom to others. Too bad they're from some shitty webcomic and therefore don't count for this thread.
>>46173757
Nigger the Dorf Fort Dwarfs are the ones that *aren't* maymay versions.
>>46171146
Nothing in this thread can top this post.
>>46175497
Kitsune/Kender half breed.
>>46175099
Did you mix up Dwarves with Humans?
>>46175555
He mixed up dwarfs with a particular archetype that dwarfs, along with humans, goblins, orcs and on occasion demons have been used for.
>>46171455
I like the "drowned Atlantis" merfolk. No, not a bubble city shit.
Like, "smote by Poseidon, twisted into fishpeople for extra curse".
They already had civilization so they know stuff; and they have magic to try and mimic it underwater as best as they can.
>>46175355
What comic? It sounds pretty cool.
>>46175483
>LE STRIKE THE EARTH XD
>LE BLOOD FOR ARNOK XD
>LE BOATMURDERED XD
Dorf Fortress Dwarfs are literally memeshit, you're just too underaged to realize it.
>>46172251
>>46172752
>humanized pipefox.png
>>46171307
...Humans weselves bred with Neanderthals and other various Homo genus groups.
At one point in time, we had half-Human half-[Insert genus Homo here]
It's not at all impossible.
>>46175253
>Either a setting should be humans as exclusive Humanoid, or no humans at all
There is not a single actual reason for this and you know there isn't.
>Shorthand for the author gave up on race craft and just decides to throw a none of the above option in.
And this is just a deliberate lie.
>>46175718
>memes about something make the thing they're memeing about memes
If that's the case, we're all memes.
>>46171146
/thread
>>46172077
Can't keep the weebs away.
>>46171192
Since when are you allowed to play griffons? And what do you have against such a classic fantasy beasty?
>>46175682
Guilded Age. I think that's what it's called...something like that anyway.
>>46175763
Hold up, let me just get that anon some burn cream...
And as for actual races...Dragonkin.
> Look gais it's a humanoid dragon he's so cool.
They really just irritate me.
>>46171146
What's the beef people have with Kender? I wasn't playing when they were a thing and the one Kender in the Dragonlance series really isn't that bad.
They look like mediocre gnomes or some shit.
>>46175253
>>46174232
>>46174332
>Humans aren't a fantasy race
>Literally every major fantastical work that defined the genre features humans
>>46175895
>burn cream
So we are not allowed to point out blatant liars now? This immature idea that ever disagreeing with a post makes you butthurt needs to die.
>>46175099
>Their industries pollute the air with smog. Their warlike ways have seen millions slaughtered in the name of their greed
You're mistaking dwarves for englishmen.
>>46171540
Man, you must hate World of Darkness then.
>>46171540
>Anyway, in that vein: Dragonborn, Angels, Demons, Liches, Vampires, and any flavor of the week supernatural young-adult romance novel's race or those that are canonically extremely powerful, extremely rare of explicitly evil, or are beholden to other huge setting restrictions.
I don't remember liches being popular in media.
Dwarves were a mistake. -Aulë
>>46175355
Fuck yeah, Gravedust is best dwarf
>>46175999
I imagined Aüle differently.
>>46175911
Mainly because of how people play them. Canonically, they're like magpies and they grab (steal) shiny baubles off of people.
When people played Kender PCs this translated into kleptomaniacs.
>>46176046
How else would you rp a compulsive need to take things though? They're designed to be a race of jovial thieves.
>>46175911
The race writeup in the setting book for the rpg is sickeningly awash with marysueism like how everybody loves them and forgives them for stealing, etc
In actual game it's just the dickassest of dickassest rogues. A vehicle and excuse to fuck with the party.
>>46175740
Half-dragon humans are and will forever be the dumbest shit.
>>46176061
They're supposed to steal things that are pretty but with little value, not gold and jewels.
>>46176123
But gold and jewels are shiny
>>46176076
Unless you play it off spiritually like Tehanu.Still Worst Earthsea though.
>>46176137
But they aren't baubles.
>>46171112
>his fantasy world consists of races other than human
>>46171112
Humans.
Tieflings. Regardless of their merits, almost every game in 5e I've tried to run has to have one or two special snowflake fucking tieflings in the party. It's to the point where I make the social setting hostile to the stupid fucks.
>>46177357
I don't get it, if you don't like special snowflakes why do you let people play humans?
dwarves
i've since elves done in interesting ways, never dwarves
I'm pretty sick of most every human-ish race.
You've better at LEAST got some major animal features. Bare minimum. If you're a forehead-alien like those elves or that ork, I only want you around in that vague kitchen sink sense.
>>46177410
Why?
>>46177425
because forehead aliens and human-like fantasy are almost entirely there based on a temporary constraint we had on production values.
That and humans are in literally every setting and area always at the forefront of importance.
>>46177441
But elves and orcs come from long before we had production values to worry about. You can have anything in written/spoken stories.
How does popularity reduce the quality of a race?
>>46173931
I am from the south, in Florida.
White humans make up all of my past players' characters. They get blotchy when some one does not play one as well.
>>46172820
>delicate californian fuckbaby detected
>>46177495
Orcs and elves, in the modern looks-like-a-dude sense, are really fucking new.
In the past they were at least a really fucked up dude, and sometimes more a general spirit you gave saucers of milk to.
But, most importantly, whenever I see a forehead-alien race, I can just HEAR the theoretical robot player saying "Oh, another self insert then?"
>>46171515
>triggered
>>46177540
Florida is not particularly known for being very white. Or human.
>>46177545
>California is the only place that is warm in the entire world
>>46177556
I agree that the WoW style "these elves are humans but they're real good at magic" races suck, if that's the kind of thing you mean.
I don't see how it relates to self-inserts, though.
>>46177614
He's not wrong, though. That anon really didn't have any real reasoning.
>>46177556
>humanity as a whole will be known as that guy who can only write self inserts by robots and aliens at large
the possibility that this could be true hurts me in the soul
>>46177615
North Florida is pretty much a little kkk nation.
>>46177641
>I don't see how it relates to self inserts
Oh, so you're playing another HUMAN thing again, eh human?
I suppose he's going to have hair too?
And then the robot judges you for bringing your human fetish to the table. Which you can't deny, because you do have a human fetish, being a human.
>>46175740
This makes me wonder if there are any RPG settings where it's a bunch of IRL humanoids as playable races.
Mite b cool.
>>46177641
>He's not wrong, though. That anon really didn't have any real reasoning.
"Someone played or wanted to play the race and it was bad" is the reasoning behind 95% of all disliked races in this thread.
Why are you picking this one out of all the others?
>>46177662
Oh, I thought you meant robot as in /r9k/.
>>46177704
But it isn't. Besides which -- that wasn't the anti-human anon's reasoning. It was "Someone wanted to play humans and I didn't want them to so they're bad".
>>46177711
>Someone wanted to play humans and I didn't want them to so they're bad
Yes, that is covered under
>or wanted to play the race and it was bad
like I said.
That is 95% on this thread.
Why did you pick that one out of all the rest?
Why did you not pick, say,
>>46177357
>>46171828
He's a big guy
>>46177731
Like I said, that *isn't* the reasoning behind 95% of this thread.
"wanted to play the race and it was bad" is pretty different to "wanted to play the race and I disagreed with them".
I didn't see that post, anon. Besides which, he has clearly said he doesn't like the special snowflakeyness. *Besides which*, the popularity of a shitty argument doesn't make the shitty argument good. You really have no leg to stand on.
>>46177755
>Oh, I just didn't see it
>B-besides, the argument isn't any good!
>B-b-besides, he said he hated special snowflakes, not the race
If C were the case, he'd just disallow snowflakes, not the race.
if B were the case, you'd ignore it because you don't feel the argument has merit.
if A were the case, you didn't read the fucking thread and that makes me angry
![warforged-01[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/TJjdhfy.jpg "warforged-01[1].jpg")
I dislike that warforged look like Iron Man. It either looks like they ran out of ideas or "we want the comic book audience".
You might as well crowbar cars, plastics and assault rifles into the same medieval fantasy setting.
>>46177798
I am quite frankly upset that fantasy at any point stopped having space ships, jetpacks, and guns be central points in it.
And that green space fantasy princesses are becoming a fading trend.
>>46177778
>>46177755
you forgot D- He has to be some kind of clod to not appreciate an argument turned on the people who made the argument in the first place, regardless of bad or good quality.
>>46177808
And I'm upset that folk tale
adventures get lumped into Tolkein worlds.
We can be upset together.
![362ce09f3bf8a52d0afb8e776b5912e6[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/mbflNHw.jpg "362ce09f3bf8a52d0afb8e776b5912e6[1].jpg")
>>46177808
I'm okay with sci-fi, fantasy and all that, I'm even okay with a mishmash. It's just I don't like it when there's this one thing that's glaringly out of place for a given setting.
A warforged is basically an armour golem. Something like this would just work better in my opinion.
Vamp and Psycho Mantis are annoying in the MGS series for the same reason.
>>46177841
I too am upset about this, but at the same time am guilty of it myself quite often as I require kitchen sink settings.
I try to keep the folk tale adventure section discretely cordoned off from the tolkein section, though. For the sake of thematic integrity.
>>46176022
His name is Mahal you longshanked freak
>>46177856
>vamp and psycho mantis
>annoying in MGS
>not some of the points that elevate MGS into amazing bullshit
I am really upset at the idea of removing that shit from MGS.
>>46177856
while I get your asthetic gripe, I have never not had warforged be reskinned as something else ever.
>>46177778
>If I greentext it, the argument is DESTROYED!
He explained why he didn't like the race, not that he just didn't like it. This means it's at least a decent argument.
Disallowing snowflakes would naturally lead to disallowing races that produce or encourage snowflakes.
Someone not seeing a post makes you angry? Anon, you might have autism.
>>46177880
>Disallowing snowflakes would naturally lead to disallowing races that produce or encourage snowflakes.
The end result of this logic is disallowing humans, as they produce special snowflakes.
Especially once you remove every other race that produces special snowflakes.
I'm sorry, your post has self defeated before I even got a chance to have a counterargument.
>>46177867
Well, later in the series, it was all explained away with "nanomachines, son." But beforehand I was enjoying a nice little hard sci-fi setting and then suddenly BAM! Vampire. Or a fucking psychic arm. Because why the fuck not? Because it just takes me out of that mode.
>>46177905
see I think we played those games very differently.
I was having a wacky over the top game over on my end.
>>46177880
It's perfectly reasonable to tell someone to fuck off for not reading the thread.you autist
>>46177556
And the modern elf still has nothing whatsoever to do with 'production values'. Do you really think Tolkien and Anderson were worried about TV adaptations when they wrote their novels?
>>46177859
It's hard to do, especially if the players are expecting a kitchen sink setting. I know your pain, though.
>>46177856
>>46177798
The logic behind warforged makes sense to me as does the idea of magical escalation and wizards serving as the enforcers of MAD in a setting like Eberron, which was trying to do something different with the D&D palette. I agree with you on the aesthetic, though-something more golemlike and uniform an less iron man would make more sense.
>>46177897
>The end result of this logic is disallowing humans, as they produce special snowflakes.
Obviously not. If a race exclusively or very commonly produces snowflakes, you would take a disliking to it. If a race does not, you would not.
>I won't address your other arguments, and I'll pretend this is because I have convinced myself I've won
>>46177930
It's perfectly autistic to assume not seeing a post = not reading the thread.
>>46177943
>humans do not commonly produce snowflakes
If you're just going to lie, then we can't get anywhere.
>>46177915
It's good for what it is, and I still really enjoy those games. I suppose I just got lulled into the allure of all of the technical wankery. Cellular apoptosis and shit like that. It felt juxtaposed with the fantasy stuff. (I know it's all fantasy, I'm not explaining myself well.)
Oh, you know, I think for me it was a clash of subject matter and tone. The nuclear war stuff is scary and serious, the magical stuff kind of grated against that for me.
If the tone was irreverent from the start, I'd have just gone along for the ride and shrugged my shoulders at all of the crazy shit. Imagine Snake was replaced with someone like Travis Touchdown or something.
But anyway, I'm off on a tangent. I don't like warforged because they look like Iron Man. If they looked like some kind of armour golem, they'd be fine.
>>46177979
If you're just going to dodge arguments and call something a lie, then we can't get anywhere.
>>46177880
>>46177943
>If I see something produces a special snowflake often, I should remove it
So what do you do when the guy who made a special snowflake tiefling then makes five special snowflake humans because he isn't allowed to make tieflings but is still at your table?
I don't see how removing a race actually solves your problem, which is with a player.
>>46177798
>comicbooks
>having an audience
>>46178001
If you're not going to acknowledge that a large portion of human characters are special snowflakes, then I guess I can rest easy tonight knowing someone was too stubborn to continue a conversation down a path they didn't like.
>>46178001
>>46177943
>>46177880
>>46177755
>reddit tier argument
>lel autist XD
the perfect argument against humans.
>>46171146
You love them really, /tg/.
>>46178002
We're not talking about removing a race, we're talking about disliking it. And besides, we're really talking about how that anon's argument against humans wasn't based on anything. The Tiefling one was just slightly more based on something.
As I said -- whether or not another argument is shit has no bearing on whether *this* argument is shit. And it is. It's barely an argument.
>>46178025
If you're not going to acknowledge that humans by their nature do not encourage special snowflakes, unlike Tieflings who arguably do, then I guess I can rest easy tonight knowing someone was too stubborn to continue a conversation down a path they didn't like.
>>46171112
What is with all these horrible bait/troll OPs tonight?
>>46178093
>tonight
>>46178091
>humans
>do not encourage special snowflakes
That is incredibly naive and kind of refreshing.
Well, enjoy thinking it's all the tiefling's fault that guy in your group makes special snowflakes, and not that guy, anon.
I'm going to be over here taking screencaps of your statements for future threads when someone needs reasons why not to play humans.
>>46174332
>>46171373
>anon claim that people who throw a fit when denied being able to play human are a big red flag
haha, yeah sure
>>46171515
>this guy shows up
>then this guy
>>46177641
Holy shit.
I think I am going to use the human test to ferret out problem individuals. I didn't realize it worked so well.
>>46177798
>You might as well crowbar cars, plastics and assault rifles into the same medieval fantasy setting.
Warforged aren't from a medieval fantasy setting, they're from a pulp magicpunk setting.
>>46178144
Humans are the least special race possible. They have to be. They *are* us. Choosing to play them does not contribute to special snowflakeyness. Meanwhile, Tieflings are different -- they are special.
If you can't work out the rest, you have mental disabilities.
Good job ignoring everything else, though.
>>46178236
>repeating himself
Well, enjoy thinking it's all the tiefling's fault that guy in your group makes special snowflakes, and not that guy, anon.
>>46178244
Where did I say any of that, anon?
I understand you think it's the guy behind it, you've already said that, and I've already answered it.
You're still ignoring everything else, though.
>>46178236
>tiefling player gets denied a character
>continues on as normal
>human player gets denied a character
>bitches about it all thread
>>46178271
you're on loop doc
>>46178244
>>46178219
>pulp magicpunk
you're just fucking speaking without thinking now
>>46178280
>why do people disagree with me ;_;
>>46178280
That's the value of a litmus test, anon. You can see which players will be able to deal with going out of their comfort zone, and which fall apart into shitposting and emoticons.
>>46178299
Congratulations on failing to say anything.
>>46178310
I don't know if you've ever actually looked at eberron, but generic medieval fantasy is not at all what it is.
You know how sometimes people like to theorycraft what a world with easy magic would actually look like, as opposed to 'medieval world with magic dumped on top'? That's what eberron is.
>>46178342
Congratulations on repeating yourself without addressing central points while simultaneously proving the validity of the argument you were originally trying to work against.
>>46178327
Thank god kender players don't get this bad when you deny them.
![WarforgedBard[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/JLToUNv.jpg "WarforgedBard[1].jpg")
>>46177937
>The logic behind warforged makes sense to me as does the idea of magical escalation and wizards serving as the enforcers of MAD in a setting like Eberron, which was trying to do something different with the D&D palette.
Agreed. I'm actually pretty interested in exploring warforged as a race. Especially their culture, given that they're a sort of redundant technology, but sentient.
I wonder what their music is like. Given that they don't have to breathe, they could sing in a constant drone. Over the top of that, they may play something like tubular bells. Something metal anyway. That might sound macabre given that they're partially made of metal, but we make strings out of guts and drum skins out of, well, skin.
>>46178219
Are you one of those people who splits hairs between "steampunk" and "clockpunk"?
>>46178359
What central points haven't been addressed? How does disagreement make something bad?
>>46178310
He has a point, as much as I hate to use -punk. Eberron is a lot pulpier and a lot more modern than other settings because of practical applications of magic.
>>46178400
Anon, you have deliberately gone out of your way to demonstrate your willingness to throw a fit over this issue.
Which is the entire point of the argument you were originally working against.
That, and you still hold some kind of magical idea that it's the setting's fault for everything.
>>46171455
Replace metalworking with coral and bone carving, and agriculture with hunting / herding and it could work
>>46175996
Alright, that's it, this must be corrected.
We should fill the young adult market with a slew of bad lich romances, imagine the potential!
>Bella, you don't know who I am!
>"Tell me...I can handle...anything."
>Don't say I didn't warn you. I'm..I'm actually a lich!
>*Sparkles and loses the skin on his right hand.*
>>46178310
It is literally a pulp adventure about real men (and real women) who go up around beating up foreign bad guys (Kalasthar, Rakshasa, Giants) and cults (Dragon Below, Blood of Vol) while "recovering" precious artifacts.
It's magicpunk because the PCs and heroes are the kind of people you don't particularly want to be around and they're always stirring up shit, combined with magic-powered airship, magic-powered trains, and a class dedicated entirely to making magical contraptions.
>>46178387
I really liked the Warforged fluff for The Becoming God.
>dude, we don't have a god!
>what if we like build one?
>dude!
>dude!
>"steampunk" and "clockpunk"
Do you mean steampunk and cogfop?
>>46178432
>Anon, you have deliberately gone out of your way to demonstrate your willingness to throw a fit over this issue.
It's called an argument, anon. An activity that takes at least two people, incidentally. 4chan is full of them. The world is full of them. Sometimes, people just don't automatically agree with you.
The argument I was against is that fits don't make something bad, actually.
I don't believe it's the setting's fault for everything. You must have seriously misunderstood something.
>>46178497
>fits don't make something bad
THAT'S your agument?
Well then you're flat out wrong. ANYone who throws fits over gaming subjects in your group should be removed.
If a guy throws a fit because you don't let him play a kender? Remove his ass. A guy throws a fit because you don't let him play a human? Remove his ass.
>>46178387
>especially as a culture
A lot of sudden or new races without a cultural history, warforged and tieflings included, have a lot of interesting things going on when you start trying to figure out a shared culture or what their role in society is. That's really cool-I wouldn't have picked up on the idea that warforged music would not have to emphasize rests and pauses to get around breathing. I could also see an almost reverence reserved for other things forged-using tubular bells wouldn't be macabre to warforged because by playing them, warforged would help the bells be used for their purpose.
>>46178497
>setting's fault for everything
You outright stated previously that it was the setting's fault that special snowflakes occurred in greater frequency, as you claimed that humans alone would have diminished frequency in comparison.
Therefore, in an a=b=c relationship, you claimed that it was the setting's fault for special snowflakism, and not something inherent to you or your players.
>>46178547
>You outright stated previously that it was the setting's fault that special snowflakes occurred in greater frequency, as you claimed that humans alone would have diminished frequency in comparison.
I said that humans don't encourage snowflakes, not that they diminished their frequency. That leads to the opposite conclusion, anon.
>Dumbest
Unironically played with a Tumblr furfag in a "you can play any race if you make it fit in the story" plot, DM's line, not mine.
You know that Undertale super secret bonus fight character you can only access for like 1 hour on a specific day? He is a fan of that guy and rolled up a Paladin as THAT.
Besides seeing a dragon that melts in extreme heat running around smiting evil, it was a normal game, but I'll be fucking damned if I ever play 5e with him again.
>>46178584
Anon, saying they don't encourage snowflakes is exactly the same thing as saying they diminish snowflake frequency when you compare it to other races which you do claim increase snowflake frequency.
They are exactly the same function.
>>46171192
>Griffins are also shit.
FUCK
YOU
Nothing is better than a mix of two royal beasts - one of the sky and one of the land.
>>46178616
>Anon, saying they don't encourage snowflakes is exactly the same thing as saying they diminish snowflake frequency when you compare it to other races which you do claim increase snowflake frequency.
Not at all.
Ice cream does not cause unicorns to appear. This doesn't mean that unicorns appear.
However, I do think that Tieflings encourage special snowflakes -- by which I mean their specialness compared to humans makes it easier to be a special snowflake. Obviously the races themselves don't generally take a hold of a player's mind and force them to be snowflakes, although it would be possible if you had a race that rewards you for playing in such a way.
>>46178654
Sorry anon, you outright are getting the math of this exchange wrong.
Humans not encouraging special snowflakism is definitionally identical to humans diminishing special snowflakism when in comparison to tieflings as per your example.
In a zero sum game like this, a race encouraging something means races that do not encourage that thing act as a diminishing factor.
>>46171338
>>46171476
But I like them both...The steampunk tinkerer thing is as stale as my balls though.
>>46178612
I think I just got cancer reading that, thanks Anon.
>>46177905
At what fucking point did you ever think Metal Gear was hard sci-fi.
>Metal Gear 1
There's a mech that launches nukes, a series of indestructible human robots, and a team of agents with skills that pretty much make them superhuman.
>Metal Gear 2
Magic synthetic gasoline has the potential to solve all the world's problems, another fucking mech that launches nukes, and a team of agents with skills that pretty much make them superhuman.
>Metal Gear Solid
NANOMACHINES are introduced, a comically large mech that launches nukes, there's a man with a series of ravens that instantly eat his corpse the moment he dies, some regular guy with pretty good skills's DNA can some how make super soldiers when they get injected with it, your former ally is now a cyborg ninja and has superpowers for some reason, stealth camouflage makes Snake unable to see that there are five guys on the same elevator as him, Snake finds out he's a clone along with Liquid in a cloning project that takes place in the fucking 70s, and the game ends with us finding out that the current president of the United States is yet another clone of Big Boss that is actually younger than Snake and Liquid but looks older because of reasons.
Yes, please go on about how Psycho Mantis ruined that perfectly grounded feel Metal Gear is known form.
>>46178524
I guess throwing a fit is, indeed, a bad thing.
>>46178654
>>46178706
>play planescape
>guy wants to play a human in tiefling town
>he is now the special snowflake
I can't tell why I am laughing at this. Is it irony? Is this ironic laughter?
>>46178706
Imagining that tieflings do produce more special snowflakes (which is not what I said, incidentally) -- ice cream does not cause babies. Sex causes (encourages) babies. Contraception prevents (discourages) them.
The contraception in this would be some race that reduces the special snowflakes. Which is not humans, who only don't encourage them. Like the ice cream.
Now: what argument did that original anon have, and how does throwing a fit (by which I mean wanting to play something the GM says they can't) make them bad?
>>46178796
It would definitely encourage special snowflakes.
>>46178524
A guy throws a fit because someone wants to play human? Remove his ass. Anyway, disagreement isn't throwing a fit.
I'm not a big fan of Animefolk.
>>46178830
Ice cream is not a part of the baby spectrum.
Humans and tieflings are part of the special snowflake spectrum.
I'm sorry anon, your false analogies don't really disprove the math of it.
>>46178830
>wanting to play something the GM doesn't
fine
>not dropping the issue when the GM says you can't
not fine
>this isn't a fit this is a disagreement
Not fine ^2
>>46171307
That's why my setting has elves and dwarves as sub races of humans.
Basically:
>There's magic in the world.
>It be sealed of because Aymao Eldritch horror BBEG invaded and that was the only way to stop it.
>Human history happens.
>Magic is unsealed slowly.
>Magic research+mutation
>Bam enhanced human races are born called elves and dwarves after old popular works of fiction
>>46178796
>>46178830
Although only in as much as they'd be different from the rest of the world. It still wouldn't have the key difference with the real world -- that is, they wouldn't be special compared to the world the players come from. Another part of snowfakeness is the fact that people misinterpret character race (and class and so on) for character. And tieflings provide personalities etc. for their players.
>>46178861
Humans are the least special race, especially in majority-human settings. You can still be a snowflake and human, but the humanity doesn't contribute to the snowflakeness. Your assertion that not contributing to something is the same as diminishing it is absurd.
>>46178898
>not fine
Of course it's fine. It means that the GM is not a good fit for you. Probably you should find another GM, or sort things out between you (as you are doing). If being human is that important to you -- it's that important to you.
To me, a fit is a tantrum -- name calling, sulking, passive and full on aggression. I don't know what you think it is.
>especially in majority-human
you mean ONLY in majority-human.
In majority anything else, humans are the special snowflakes. Given the zero sum nature of this spectrum.
Your argument that "oh, it's most like you, so it can't be a special snowflake" is kind of self defeating, since you are basically admitting to not only being a special snowflake, but also a self insert in non-majority human settings.
>>46171112
Small colorful horses
>>46178987
>name calling
>>46177880
>sulking
>>46178091
>>46178001
>>46177943
>>46177880
>passive and full on aggression
>>46178236
>>46171112
Nothing is innately bad, just poorly executed.
That said, I've not met a decent Tiefling or Dragonborn player, and Elf enthusiasts tend to be hit and miss.
>>46179088
you could have skipped all that by just linking
>>46171515
it literally has all three of the ingredients.
>>46179029
I don't understand how you think zero sum means that humans are special snowflakes in non-majority human settings.
I am admitting that a part of being a special snowflake is wanting to be...special. Besides which -- I'm not saying it can't be a special snowflake.
And anyway, admitting to being a special snowflake or playing self-inserts wouldn't diminish the argument.
>>46179088
No aggression there anon, full-on or passive. Or sulking. There's sarcasm, sure. And of course there's name calling; that's 4chan.
>>46179106
>>46179128
I'm not that dude, anon.
>>46179163
anon, you are passive aggressive and sulking right up to this post even
>>46178987
Also, I don't understand how you do not understand that in settings with majority nonhumans, humans would be the special ones, and thus the snowflakes.
>>46179163
>I'm not that dude
Sure you aren't.
Either way, he was totally throwing a fit.over somebody daring to not let people play humans
>this entire argument goes on
>nobody says a single thing that makes me feel better about the theoretical robot player looking down on my human fetishes
I am so ashamed of myself and humanity
>>46179187
I don't see it, anon.
Humans would be the special ones, and this would facilitate snowflakes. But the fact that we the players are human reduces this. What about this do you not understand?
>>46179223
People throw fits over everything, all the time. As you say -- throwing the fit is the problem, not what they're throwing it about.
Although limiting what people can play as in a way that upsets your group is pretty dumb, unless they signed up knowing that was the idea.
>>46179276
Nothing wrong with that. Mortal men and women are disgusting, horrible creatures.
You may also have a humiliation fetish.
>>46179309
>What about this do you not understand?
Because the fact players are humans means they are more likely to self insert, which is more likely to lead to special snowflakes and other things of similar quality.
Playing a human in a non-human majority setting is saying "I want to be special for being me".
Also, limiting people's ability to play humans is a super fucking good litmus test to see if someone will throw a fit when brought out of their comfort zone, which I think not even you can argue at this point.
>>46179330
No, I just...
I just really want us, collectively, to be cool when robots grow up.
I see these humans-are-protagonists-in-every-setting trends, and I just am pre-emptively rolling my eyes and burning in shame for when the robot asks why we always write about ourselves.I am really thankful to science fiction and drugs for at least giving me some stories not about humans I can point to
>>46179351
How does playing as a human make it more likely to self insert? Be honest; how many sues have you seen that were 100% full-blooded human?
I would argue the exact opposite. If you want to be special, you want to be special compared to everyone else (obviously). So you want to be special not only compared to everyone in-setting, but also in real life (because you are a thinking person from real life).
>Also, limiting people's ability to play humans is a super fucking good litmus test to see if someone will throw a fit when brought out of their comfort zone, which I think not even you can argue at this point.
Of course not. It's just stopping people from doing what they want, because -- you want to see how they'll react when they don't get to do what they want. Surprise, they'll want to do what they want to do. Either they'll try to reason with you, or they'll just leave and find a group that allows them to do as they please.
Leaving your comfort zone is not the same thing as telling people what to play. If you're a good GM, you'll say "I want to try something different, who's up for it?". Or you'll post the details of the game you want players for, and so on. It's weird that you think not playing humans is out of my comfort zone, by the way. My main character's a tiefling.
>>46179433
>How does playing as a human make it more likely to self insert
The same way playing a tiefling makes it more likely to be a special snowflake.
That you take one for granted and do not acknowledge the other is kind of disgusting.
I have a question about ITT:
What's wrong with special snowflakes?
If everyone's the snowflake, nobody is.
Except my players keep playing relatively down-to-earth human or halfelven characters, and nobody'll go with undeads or dragonborn or whatever.
>>46179474
>what's wrong with special snowflakes?
we require them to be bad so that
>>46179433
can have a point.
If special snowflakes weren't bad, then his entire argument from bottom up would be built out of hypocracy.
>>46179453
>playing a tiefling makes it more likely to be a special snowflake.
It makes it easier to be a special snowflake.
Self-inserts are about you being the character. You don't need to play a human to be a self-insert. I admit it in some ways makes it easier (in that you, being human, can just insert yourself as you are) but this is opposed by the fact that no self-insert player wants to be them with their current, real-world abilities. Like I said -- most Sues are not human.
>>46179474
To me, it's purely that snowflakes often assume that race or class is a substitute for character. Basic humans can make characters just as interesting as dragons, or anything else.
>>46179492
Hypocrisy doesn't reduce an argument. Besides, my argument was never about races being bad because of snowflakes.
>>46179534
>self-insert player wants to be them with their current, real-world abilities.
Which is why they play the self insert in a fantasy game where they can have levels without putting in any actual work.
And then they pick the human in the majority non-human setting, so they can be special AND have superpowers.
Like I said, It's kind of disgusting the amount of willful ignorance you are using for the sake of a rather unimportant argument.
>>46179534
>Hypocrisy doesn't reduce an argument
Yes it does.
>Besides, my argument was never about races being bad because of snowflakes.
Your entire argument is based on one guy's argument being bad because it's for no reason, but the other guy's being OK because it's for special snowflake reasons.
If special snowflakes weren't bad, then that second guy would have no reason.
>>46173973
Griffins are shit.
Gryphons, on the other hand are the coolest.
>>46179603
Glyphons are pretty cool too. As are hippogriffs. And hippgryphs. Hippocamps, not so much.
>>46179563
>And then they pick the human in the majority non-human setting, so they can be special AND have superpowers.
Or they differentiate themselves from everyone else so they can be special, or they give themselves more exotic powers. Sues are usually self-inserts.
It is a pretty fundamental rule that what looks to you like ignorance will not look like ignorance to the guy you're arguing against.
>>46179585
It's literally a logical fallacy, anon.
My argument is that the other's is *better* because there is some reasoning behind it. The reasoning behind it might be arguable, but it's actual reasoning. Whereas the other had none.
>>46179649
Anon, you are being incredibly un-authentic in this argument by insisting that your baseless anecdotal claim, teiflings cause more sues, is real while disapproving of his baseless anecdotal claim.
I can only assume you are arguing in ill-faith based on this.
also, "anyone who demands this or throws a fit is a big red flag" is some reasoning. you might disagree with it, but it's there. This further paints you as a hypocrite, which further pushes the idea that you are not arguing in good faith.
>>46178938
So, your setting is Shadowrun.
>>46171307
I'm fine with half-breeds, but only if both parent races are playable.
Also, fuck any race that ends with -ling
>>46179624
>Glyphon
Is that a Mimic that looks like text? Actually, I kind of like that.
>>46179766
>changelings aren't allowed
fuck
>tieflings aren't allowed
>aasimar are
wait, what's the logic on that one
I think the problem is D&D.
I've never had gurps people complain about worst races in fantasy.
I think this "I hate so and so race I have a grudge against" thing is entirely an artifact of D&D play and D&D community.
Is this true?
>>46179725
>Anon, you are being incredibly un-authentic in this argument by insisting that your baseless anecdotal claim, teiflings cause more sues, is real while disapproving of his baseless anecdotal claim.
What.
I'm saying most sues are not human, anon. Feel free to search through a few Sue threads in the archive if you *want*. I'm surprised if you genuinely disagree with that assertion, though -- that most Sues are not human or full human.
I don't think Tieflings cause more Sues. I don't think races cause Sues at all. I think people cause Sues.
As I said earlier -- throwing a fit is a reason, but there's no given reason as to why you said they couldn't play humans to begin with (i.e. why humans are a bad race to begin with). Hence, why he doesn't have a leg to stand on -- he hasn't provided his reasoning.
>>46179786
Aasimar aren't edgy, tieflings are.
>>46179864
Yes, yes, I get that you want only your baseless anecdotal claim to fly.
That's really dishonest.
>>46179895
I bet you 5 dollars I can prove you wrong if you let me into your group
>>46179895
Anything can be edgy. Hitler aasimar killing all the less holy species is probably a thing somewhere.
>>46179898
I'm sorry, I don't understand you. How is it that I only want my baseless anecdote to fly while his does not?
>>46179979
don't...
don't just say that
I want to win 5 dollars
>>46179979
>>46179908
He meant 'edgy' as in with spikes and sharp edges. Aasimar are fine because they're 'pretty'.
>>46180002
I believe you understand me perfectly.
>>46180013
I think I can still win my 5 bucks under these conditions.
I am almost certain I've seen some pointy aasimar
>>46179908
I think what Anon means is that tieflings are by their fundamental nature edgy, while aasimar by their fundamental nature aren't.
You can make an edgy character who is an aasimar, but he isn't edgy BECAUSE he's an aasimar.
>>46180052
One problem is that your condition is 'over the internet via an internet argument'. That's honestly your main problem, I think.
>>46180057
I bet you TEN dollars I can make it edgy because it's an aasimar.
>>46180060
I want a gaming group and some money, anon.
>>46180025
You're just going to avoid answering my questions? You're going to deliberately let your assumptions of bad faith take the place of my asking you to clarify something?
Do you actually *have* an answer?
>>46180092
yep.
>>46171828
Fuck you, Revenants are great.
>>46179895
Her arm is really fucking hairy.
>>46171490
That sounds really funny for a one shot
>>46179835
Well, GURPS never spawned Drowtales.
>>46173174
>So, you're against having Russians in your games?
Not that anon, but every Russiaboo player I've had was really annoying about "Be lookink at my bad accent, I'm such an awesome roleplayer"
>>46179474
The problem with most (not all) snowflakes is that they substitute a particular race combination or class combination for having a fleshed out character.
It's also (typically) an extreme power fantasy for someone with low self-esteem who wants to take the spotlight - and gets upset when they have to share it.
Pic related.
>>46175960
>This immature idea that ever disagreeing with a post makes you butthurt needs to die.
Counterpoint: U MAD
But seriously good luck changing underage 4chan culture.
>>46171112
Everything but the race I play in every game.
>>46181479
I had a self-insert in a Digimon fanfiction, but since he was a self-insert I felt it was important to include all my flaws as well as my strong points, and he was part of a team that I was determined to make each of the other characters just as developed (remembering that I was a shitty 13-year-old writer). Definitely had some Ow the Edge going for him, though.
And I had an OP Mary Sue character, but he wasn't a self-insert and had basically nothing to do with me.
I never crossed the streams, thank God.
>>46181479
The thing is, even if that's true, the hypothetical 'snowflake' player will still act like that if he gets to be a half-dragon-half-angel or not. He'll still want the spotlight, he'll still want a power fantasy, he'll still want all of that. Banning race combinations or class combinations doesn't actually *fix* anything. He'll want to turn his simple halfling thief into a ninja, or turn his human warrior into a katana-wielding MASTER SWORDSMAN WHO FAILS NEVER.
It's a bandaid. A cure for a symptom, not the problem.
And if you'll still have the same player no matter what, you might as well let people go balls-to-the-wall CUHRAZY because it's more fun.
I mean, I could see situations where you want players to be more sedate characters, like a muddy, slog-through-rainy-village low fantasy, but that has nothing to do with snowflakeyness.
>>46180552
Don't worry anon, you would have never been able to have sex with her anyway.
>>46181610
I'm not advocating banning anything, except maybe problem players.
If everyone is allowed to be balls to the wall crazy, it had better be with a system that can handle it. 3.PF can't because the core classes are either barely better than NPC classes, or hands down the most powerful classes in the system (I guess you can ban core classes, which is fine - but again, we're back to banning things).
