>D&D is a WRPG tabletop game with archetypes from western fantasy and legends like warriors, priests, thieves and wizards
>Oriental monks are a core base class
>Not even a popular base class from an oriental themes splatbook, but a base class
Who the hell thought this was a good idea? Especially when they could've introduced occidental monks instead, or maybe just some non-mystical brawler?
>"The original monk character class was created by Brian Blume, inspired by the fictional martial arts of the Destroyer series of novels.[2] The monk was introduced in 1975's Blackmoor supplement."
Shut the fuck up.
Besides - your faggot pugilist bullshit class can easily be a fighter or barbarian.
Eastern monks have always had an element of mysticism, which explains the inhuman feats they're able to accomplish.
A pugilist or brawler type just doesn't cut it.
D&D was never meant as a western medieval fantasy style game. From the very beginning, the creators pumped it full of every single sort of pulpy entertainment they were into, mixing things up as they went along.
I mean, look at the titles on Appendix N.
If Gary Gygax created D&D in more modern times, you could bet your ass that it would have stuff from wuxia movies, popular anime, videogames, all other sorts of shit that's popular now.
>>46134984
Even considering how shit D&D monks are (outside of 4e monks) I'd fear what a more "realistic" monk would look like.
>>46134984
"Guy who punches good" is covered by the Fighter. Monks cover more, like, "guy who's mind and body are forged into weapons, can kill with hand or spirit".
>>46134984
>Not even a popular base class from an oriental themes splatbook
"White dude learns martial arts and KICKS EVERYTHING" was a popular genre in the '70s, and part of that genre was introduced to D&D via splatbook.
>>46135044
>I'd fear what a more "realistic" monk would look like.
Full BAB, for starters.
>>46135046
>"guy who's mind and body are forged into weapons, can kill with hand or spirit".
And how does that fit in Western lore? Monks as a concept are fin, but include them in an oriental splatbook along with Samurai, Geisha and Wu-Jen.
>>46135003
Or a bard.
>>46135046
Fucking this.
>>46135104
>Full BAB, for starters.
Pfft. Like they wouldn't just give him the 1/3 BAB and justify it by saying "oh he focuses more on speed and dodging rather than full offense" like with the Soulknife or some shit.
>>46135104
I'd say "mystical wanderers from East" are strongly bounded with western lore
>>46135148
>I'd say "mystical wanderers from East" are strongly bounded with western lore
Either you're talking about kebabs or you're talking about modern western lore. As in at least 1800s and beyond with the rise of orientalism.
>>46135167
Uhm. Yea. We are talking about modern western lore.
Unless you're implying that D&D was some kind of purview into medieval lore in which case HAH.
>>46135003
To be fair, those books are technically about a secret American spy-guy, but he learns a nearly-lost mystical Korean martial art from a Asian assassinand also the hero turns out to be the avatar of Shiva. As the series goes on he does more and more stuff like abandoning earthly ties and pleasures and fighting a bunch of cyborg and magically powered kung fu masters.
That's pretty damn weeb.
>>46135175
No, D&D was originally based on the works of Geoffrey Chaucer. Gygax originally wanted all the sinful clerics and paladins to end up in Satan's asshole, just like the friars in the Canterbury Tales, but Arneson prevented him from doing it. You can still see the remnants of the old, weirder editions of D&D in some of the monsters in the original Monstrous Manual, not to mention the demonic imagery on the front of the first D&D manuals.
Players were originally going to explore hell, but this got changed into generic dungeons just before release, especially in light of the Christian Panic surrounding Dungeons and Dragons. We've lost a lot of the original drafts, so few can say what the game would have looked like if Gygax had been allowed to go ahead with it.
>>46135252
That's a nice source you got there.
Yep, because a Western Hero never beat someone with Unarmed Combat.
Wait, no. That's literally what Theseus did with the Minotaur or Hercules with the Minotaur.
>>46135297
...fuck. The second one should be 'Hercules with the Nemean Lion'
>>46135252
>D&D was originally based on the works of Geoffrey Chaucer
Who often wrote about balrogs and hobbits, modrons, zombies, liches, and so on, I take it.
>>46135297
Look at both the artwork and fluff for D&D monks. How many of these are inspired by the great Greek heroes or even the Greek art of Pankration? Close to none. They're all kung fu shaolin weebs.
>WRPG
>realistic
>BAB
>kebabs
This thread is full of assholes
>>46135297
I like how people always forget the crazy shit the greek heroes did. Not to mention scandinavian legends like Beowulf, who ripped a fucking troll's arm off while naked. Or even crazier shit like Cu Chulainn.
The martial classes are so neutered compared to "Based on characters like Merlin and Circe" casters. It's like people forget that mythic heroes pretty regularly did crazy shit without even being armed.
>>46135310
The Str and Con secondary monks in 4e were basically just MMA fighters in fluff and idea.
>>46135338
I find it funny that so much art has Theseus with a sword. He wasn't given a sword. He needed to fucking wrestle the Minotaur to death because he was thrown in there to die, not kill it.
>>46134984
D&D has dinosaurs and cavemen as random encounters.
>>46134984
The JRPG is entirely derived from AD&D.
>>46134984
>>D&D is a WRPG tabletop game with archetypes from western fantasy and legends like warriors, priests, thieves and wizards
LIES.
>>46134984
>anime shit
Why does Christ allow you to live
>>46135207
Claiming blondie.
>>46135650
To be fair, a lot of those fantasies and legends are from comic books and movies popular in the West in the early 1970s.
>>46135659
>Why does Christ allow you to live
OPs existence is a punishment for our sins.
>>46135305
>he never read The Balrog's Tale
As expected of Amerifat """"education""""
>>46135252
>No, D&D was originally based on the works of Geoffrey Chaucer.
Pffahahahaha.
>>46135548
And they don't have enough people punching dragons and other things to death.
It's funny how Fallout games are the best RPGs for playing an unarmed death machine as far as I know.
>Greek and Norse heroes used as a justification for weeb martial arts
Stop.
>>46135799
>Greek spellcasters being used as a justification for Wizard spells
Stop.
>>46134984
>they could have introduced occidental monks instead
It's called a cleric, and it was there before the monk class.
>>46135207
That's Weeb before weeb was a thing, holy shit.
Man I wish I still had the pdf talking about the "original" D&D setting which was essentially a bunch of random castles run by fighters and clerics, with too deep rivers, cave men living in the mountains and fucking martians living in the desert.
>>46136063
"Weeb" has been a thing ever since we didn't write off anything from an eastern land as gooblegook.
>>46136067
>Man I wish I still had the pdf talking about the "original" D&D setting which was essentially a bunch of random castles run by fighters and clerics, with too deep rivers, cave men living in the mountains and fucking martians living in the desert.
Ask and you shall receive.
>>46136063
Weeb's been a thing for over 200 years senpai
>>46135763
>unarmed moves in 2
>you can now break power armored characters with your fists
>>46136016
The Cleric was designed as a counter to a player who was playing an early vampire. Influences included Van Hellsing and some actual historical soldier who became a priest and swore to never let blood again by the edge of a sword. Cheeky fucker picked up a mace.
>>46136178
>D&D has secretly been the ridiculous Frazettan kitchen sink setting I've been lusting for all along
>>46136647
>secretly
Most of the settings are just "pour everything in and hit blend", the only difference being the proportions of ingredients.
>>46135873
Merlin was Welsh.
>>46136647
How did you not see that within two minutes of picking up the rulebook?
>>46136764
Circe polymorphed people.
>>46136764
1e merlin was some abomination multiclass (Mage/Illusionist/Druid)
>>46136705
None of the other settings really fill that need. Even Eberron is too much steampunk victoriana, it makes my eyes glaze over and my heart sink ever so slightly.
>>46136846
>Even Eberron is too much steampunk victoriana, it makes my eyes glaze over and my heart sink ever so slightly.
What? It's a lot closer to classic Pulp.
>>46136864
No.
>>46136846
I generally find Sigil-based PS campaigns to be more fun than Eberron for fantasy magitech worlds.
OTOH I never really warmed up to Eberron because it came out at a time when it basically exemplified all that was wrong about 3e.
>>46136877
Personally, I thought Eberron did a great job with making 3.5 work. That edition was terrible at doing the standard fantasy stuff, so Eberron was made as a setting to explore what a setting with easily-crafted magic items and world-dominating wizards would be like.
>>46136872
Why not?
>>46136764
Merlin has nothing to do with D&D spellcasters, other than maybe some weird homebrewed AD&D bards. D&D spellcasters are from Dragonballz. Huge, stupid assholes who throw energy balls at each other, kill planets on a whim and are basically the only thing that matters in the universe.
>>46137646
>I only know 3.5
>>46137677
I mean, 5E merlin is still better represented as anything but a Wizard. Druid or a Bard focusing on the druid spell list is more thematic (esp. if you buy the Merlin = Taliesin thing). Even Fey Warlock works better than a standard Wizard, which is more academic rote stuff.
>>46136453
>Influences included Van Hellsing and some actual historical soldier who became a priest and swore to never let blood again by the edge of a sword. Cheeky fucker picked up a mace.
I don't think Bishop Turpin counts as an "actual historic soldier."
>>46135338
>The martial classes are so neutered compared to "Based on characters like Merlin and Circe" casters.
This is the worst double standard of all time.
>Spellcaster does things multiple mythological spellcasters did at basically the same power level as each of them
>This is fine.
>Warrior does one thing a mythological warrior did, possibly not even as good as they did it
>WEEABOO!
>>46137774
Bishop Turpin uses a sword.
>>46134984
>D&D is a WRPG tabletop game with archetypes from western fantasy and legends like warriors, priests, thieves and wizards
D&D is taken primarily from western *fantasy*, which included a lot of eastern martial arts tropes.
>>46137774
he is talking about bishop odo, presumably, who was a historical person and is depicted on the bayeux tapestry rallying troops with a mace at the battle of hastings (though he may or may not have been involved in the actual combat). the idea that priests used maces because they couldn't shed blood is a myth, although an old myth that cropped up in fantasy sources D&D was inspired by. turpin was probably an inspiration too, but he used a sword.
>Class equals ocupation
OP how dumber can you get?
>>46134984
D&D is not a game about medieval fantasy, it's a medieval wargame strapped to a hodgepodge of 70s and 80s sci-fi/fantasy and its own historical growths. The fantasy elements are only tangentially related to anything from medieval Europe, and much more closely related to a time when science fiction and fantasy were the same genre, and new age woo like astral projection was a part of the popular consciousness. It only actually resembles anything like medieval Europe when you get to the most mundane parts, due to its war game roots.
This is a time period when fetishizing eastern mysticism was a big deal, and you'd probably throw some misremembered Buddhist stuff in with aligning your chakras and talking to dolphins. Taking the shared eastern/western concept of an ascetic monk and using that as an excuse to include eastern mysticism is entirely in character for the genre and time period. Throwing in martial arts films - the main type of eastern pulp entertainment available in the west - is also entirely normal.
>>46134984
>muh yuropenis fantasies
Go back to singing your faggot elf songs and jacking yourself off with your beard.
And don't forget to fuck yourself with your arrows to because a gun would be to good for you (and doesn't exist in your setting no doubt)
>>46135207
oni is best girl.
she could kidnap me and make me her husband any day.
>>46136764
merlin was a wizard in the original sense
he was a wise man. hence wiz (wise) ard (person who is)
>>46134984
>that pic
I like me some fit grills.
>>46139376
Has there ever been a D&D game with good rules for firearms? They never seem to be balanced properly.
>>46139975
My only serious beef with 2e's guns (ignore the PHB arquebus, use Combat & Tactics, Mighty Fortress or Heroes of the Mists) is that they're vastly overpriced.
>>46134984
>Monk, Barbarian, Bard
>Distinct core classes
The only answer is dnd a shit, and always was
>>46139975
D&D 5E
They're objectively better crossbows which are only limited because they're pricey as all fuck.
>>46140296
>monk
>fist fighter martial artist and mystic
>barbarian
>I swing big swords conan the barbarian instead of a knight or soldier
>bard
>I am part rogue and part wizard and play guitars and shit while I fight
It's funny that you're bringing up these classes as why DnD is shit when they're some of the best and least generic classes to play.
>>46140456
They have shorter range than crossbows, which honestly is a mild annoyance at most (but shouldn't really be a thing).
>>46136063
You're forgetting Chinnery
>>46140585
>>bard
>>I am part rogue and part wizard and play guitars and shit while I fight
I always disliked this interpretation. I preferred the original setup where the bard was the culmination of a lifetime of work, going from fighter to rogue to druid to become a sort of James Bond character, capable of all kinds of surprising things but not just a generic jack-of-all-trades.
