Can somebody explain to me why in the fuck every single new RPG insists on adding a system that allows players to reroll failed rolls?
Don't designers realize how fucking insulting that is? "Oh congrats you beat the story mode on ultra-easy, you're the hero of the land".
By including those mechanics in an RPG you are guaranteeing that nobody will ever get anything of value whatsoever out of playing your game.
Fucking pathetic.
because D&D's doing it? and praying to RNJesus isn't always the most fun to be had on a saturday night?
There's plenty of dice-heavy fuck-you shit out there, man
but then i'm also replying to standard friday night bait so really who's laughing here (its not me thats for sure)
>>46107663
It's just a small measure of narrative control, chill. Not like you're doing it willy nilly.
>>46107663
It's cool if it's representing a character manipulating luck/probability or using some sort of divination.
>>46107792
>Reroll any and every failed roll as long as you save it for the important rolls that you don't want to fail
>small
>>46107766
A game doesn't need to be extremely random just because it doesn't allow players to pick and choose when to reroll failed rolls. The only thing rerolling does is make the game easier at the cost of immersion.
>>46107957
Any is not every. Unless you have one short encounter a day you're gonna be in trouble considerably more often than you can wiggle out of it.
>>46108096
Isn't that the exact same reasoning for how casters are "balanced" in 3.PF?
>>46108073
Immersion? If you aren't supposed to have luck or fate or divination be a thing at all sure, but those mechanics reflect those things perfectly.
>>46107921
I've seen a few games say the limited option to reroll anything is to represent the character being lucky or having the god(s) smiling upon them.
Other systems, where the reroll only applies to specific circumstances, say it's there to represent skill in a different way to just increasing stats.
>>46108118
The 5 minute adventuring day is a flawed approach in every editionand not the thing alone that made 3.5/PF so broken.
As a designer who's worked on games with rerolls and without rerolls, it depends on the style of the system. When I work with a very high-fluke system, I like to give rerolls to players when the expected power level is decreased by random chance: basically, it's badass insurance, where if their badassitude fails to show they get a mulligan.
For low-fluke systems, or for games with a more defeat-heavy feel, removing rerolls gives more conservative playstyles.
One alternative to this is fail-forward design, where failures don't mean anything (I may have just displayed my bias on the matter), but that can alienate some players and runs contrary to some design styles.
>>46108171
Oh really that's interesting what products did you work on?
>"Oh congrats you beat the story mode on ultra-easy, you're the hero of the land".
>Games of pretend having difficulties
>>46108202
>You could just cheat anyway so why even have rules?
Chaotic Neutral
>>46108188
Not going to de-anon myself by saying my personal products, but I have a published PWYW cyberpunk game (made myself about $10 off of that), contributed editing to Ops and Tactics (and participated a lot in the mechanics discussions, because SSB is cool like that), was a featured reviewer, and have made unofficial and well-received supplements for Eclipse Phase and another game with a very small community. I have a semi-finished campaign supplement and setting that's a quasi-official supplement to a open-source setting, and an endless number of personal projects that never get finished.
I've also done a number of GameChef and 24-hour competition things, but those don't really count because design work comes second to "oh crap deadline" most of the time.
>>46108317
>Eclipse Phase
Fuckin' knew it
>>46108350
For what it's worth, my Eclipse Phase work was based off of hating Eclipse Phase, but finding it interesting and wanting to make the transhuman elements work (like getting morphs to feel distinct and whatnot).
Basically, trying to inject complexity and mechanics to the rules, because I miss the 90's.
>>46108375
You were like six years old
>>46108425
And?
I grew up on classic games. Twilight 2000 and Travel(l)er are among my favorite games, even though nobody will play them. Battletech and Shadowrun 3e were my first experiences on the tabletop, and I worked backward from there.
>>46107663
I let my players reroll once each per session.
They can reroll more than that, but each time they do, I get a reroll for the enemies, and mine accumulate.
>>46108472
lol
>>46107663
The problem is when you can chargen re-rolls.
If everyone gets one re-roll per session, OK.
When you can go out of your way to buy 8+ re-rolls per session... fuck you.
>>46108472
Its a shitposter, buddy.
>>46108673
No, just someone laughing at a poser
>>46108654
I assume you mean "build a character around rerolling".
I'd argue that that's sort of setting-dependent. It doesn't work in gritty settings that have a reroll function for some reason (EP actually comes to mind as a setting where I'd never ever allow a "luck" character in a campaign, but yet they're functional and viable builds, especially since luck character can delegate tasks to more capable people and then give them rerolls).
I like to see games implement a reroll earning mechanic, so you don't just get infinite rerolls or per-session rerolls. Preferably by roleplaying, but I take what I can get.
>>46108673
Shhh, I have too much free time on my hands.
Oh, and apparently pizza is now officially a pie, according to captcha.
>>46108728
>implying that pizza isn't pie
It has a crust, you eat it by the slice. Prove me wrong.
>>46109336
Fair enough.
On a more topical note, I prefer systems like Degenesis, where characters have a pre-roll push bonus for critical rolls than games with rerolls. I'm fine with post-roll improvement, though I'm not a fan of rerolls themselves (despite using them, because lazy).
>>46109470
But you know as well as I do that people do not perform better when it really matters. The more it matters, the worse they perform.
>>46109579
>ez-moder detected
>>46108654
What type of retard would allow any rerolls at all?
>>46109503
Realistically, but it doesn't hold true in most works of fiction.
>>46110728
So only give them half bonuses until the plot demands it. No need to be retarded and use dice for something just to ignore any results you don't like.
So what exactly is the statistical significance of re-rolling, and why aren't you complaining about systems that give you bonuses that have the same statistical significance? For example, "advantage" in D&D5 is roughly equivalent to a +2 bonus. Why is rolling twice easy mode, but +2 bonuses not?
>>46108317
>Anders Sandberg
>Calling it.
You'd damnwell hate Through the Breach then.
Almost every single bonus in the game beyond raw skill is 'Flip another card, take the best' (As it uses cards rather than dice).
Or it's even more 'I control the situation' power where every player draws 3 cards at the start of the game and can choose to replace a flip with one of them as you literally Cheat Fate.
It's got an entire class based around extra flips and more cheating, themed around gambling.
>>46107663
Its a patch for bad math. It isn't "easy mode." Game devs generally don't think, AT ALL, about probabilities and game balance, they just pick a funny random looking task resolution and run with it.
>>46108073
Rerolls don't "make the game easier at the cost of immersion." If I make dual wielding let you roll twice and take the highest result instead of making two attacks, that's objectively weaker and not particularly non-immersive.
>>46110587
Instead of worrying about rerolls, you should look at success percentages. What percentage of failure is required? Are 70% failure rate (most Warhammer Fantasy/40k RPG PCs) appropriate? 50%? 30%? 10%?
>>46108073
>at the cost of immersion
Do you lose immersion when hoof beats don't sound like cocoanuts slapping together?
Do you lose immersion when swords d8n't go SHING when drawn from their scabbards?
Do you lose immersion when the witness doesn't confess to committing murder on the stand?
twinlinked weapons in 40k are some bullshit i tell you hwat
>>46112029
Actually, the entire premise of "Through the Breach" is being able to take control of Fate through any number of means; speifically, you are an agent of Fate and it bends to your will.
Not having the ability to influence the 'roll'/flips would be counter-intuitive to the concept.
>>46112125
https://youtube.com/watch?v=m0eKdGcuxAw
But schwings are real so yes.
Just play a system that doesn't allow for re-rolls and is still relatively fresh.
Warhammer 3e for example.
>>46112144
I know but it's very counter to what OP was talking about how rerolls are a terrible thing/easy mode.
>>46107663
what RPG let's you reroll failed rolls limitlessly?
>>46107663
Why does it matter to you? You can run your own game without any reroll mechanics, or you can join a game that also lacks them.
I hope you aren't the kind of guy who makes his players roll to breathe.
>>46107663
A re-roll has the same statistical effect as a flat modifier (it's something like a +3 on a d20), except for that fact that it doesn't increase the upper bound of your roll.
You're just shit at math.
>>46112269
This.
>>46112269
That's only if you choose whether to apply the reroll BEFORE rolling or if you can reroll every time. It works out differently if you have a limited number of rerolls you can save for when you roll a nat 1 or equivalent.
>>46107663
>every single new RPG
Could you individually name every single game that does this?
>>46112216
>Warhammer
>doesn't allow for rerolls
I know 3e was a massive departure but is the third edition of REROLLS: THE RPG really about no rerolsl?
>>46107663
Modern RPG players HATE HATE HATE randomness, yet they are too much of an hypocrite to just play dice-less games.
>>46112639
Its less a hatred of randomness and more that people use rerolls as a bandaid on games with borked probabilities.
>>46108317
cool, i'm designing a homebrew system & campaign for my friends right now. pretty hype but also pretty scared since i don't know if it will work or if they will like it
any tips?
>>46112362
>if you choose whether to apply the reroll BEFORE rolling
Anon, think about those words for a moment, choosing to reroll before you roll doesn't actually do anything.
>It works out differently if you have a limited number of rerolls you can save for when you roll a nat 1 or equivalent.
The math doesn't change, it just changes the condition on whether you apply it from "if fail, reroll" to "if player panics, reroll".
>muh immersion
>rerolling is totally cheating you guys, even if it's built into the probabilities of the game and it's entirely possible to die or fail even with them
nice b8 OP, here's your reply
>meta-currency reroll mechanics
>new
D&Dtard detected.
>>46107663
>new
Stopped the mellinial
>>46113174
*spotted damn it
>>46113174
>>46113186
thank you for your contribution to this thread, friend
>>46113186
Nope, too late, you're now obligated to find a way to stop them once and for all. Good luck, the future of our society depends on your success.
>>46107663
Name the games.
>>46107663
I like he reroll idea. Call it Fate points or Edge or whatever but it gives a way to make the PC characters slightly better than the equivalent NPC without making separate and inferior NPC-classes.
Certainly it works better if there are only few rerolls available or things may get out of hands.
When I GM I don't allow rerolls under any circumstance; what would be the point of rolling in the first place?
Instead you suffer whatever the cost of failure is, but if you can think of another approach or skill that might salvage the situation once a round or other appropriate measure of time has passed I'll let you try that
It's not a game if there is no consequence of failure, and more significant failures such as player death feel cheap and arbitrary if the GM could have instead decided to allow you to reroll or otherwise undo your mistake that led to your death
That being said, mechanics such as FFG Star Wars Destiny Tokens are interesting ways to edit the story as it is being told, and even mechanically fair since each use adds to the GM's ability to change things for the worse/more complicated
If you have ever complained so hard about a failure that your GM sighed and said fine you can reroll: you are a baby back bitch
>>46113499
>FFG Star Wars
>no rerolls under any circumstance
Then how do you deal with talents that grant rerolls, fagbait?
>mfw OP thinks rerolls are hot shit just because you roll again but he didn't consider the actual chance of success or how that relates to the purpose of some rules systems
>mfw no face
>>46113516
I should have clarified: no rerolls outside of those permitted through the rules. If you get an ability with an in-universe explanation for why your shit was unfucked then that's all good
>>46113516
I assume that he does not allow those talents when he is the GM.
>>46113549
...In other words you do use rerolls in games that have a reroll mechanic. Unlike your earlier claim
>When I GM I don't allow rerolls under any circumstance;
>Except when I do
>>46112639
This. Fags bitch and moan any time they aren't 100% successful, I'm waiting for the some kickstarted twitter shit RPG with a save feature that you can use at any time at this point
>>46113564
Eh, it's not so much that I contradicted myself as I failed to define "reroll". In that post I meant "reroll" as "I don't like the outcome, so I'm doing to do the roll again even though it is not an actual recourse or option within the rules of the game"
a reroll doubles your chances of success, which is why you only need 30 twinlinked multimeltas to desolate a flyrant, or half an infinite number of grots
>>46113618
Thing is, where did you get the idea that anyone allows rerolling if it's not in the rules?
>>46113655
>war games
>rules that spoil immersion
It's a war game, nobody cares if you fuck up the immersion in a war game
>>46113667
Just because something is in the rules doesn't mean it isn't a retarded meta-interaction intended solely to placate tear-stricken hipster babies
>>46113681
Then don't play that game
>>46108654
>When you can go out of your way to buy 8+ re-rolls per session... fuck you.
Yeah, how dare I want to play the classic archetype of the character that isn't good at much, but is incredibly lucky? Y'know, the one I've played several times in several systems, and that has been an absolute blast to play every single time? I'm a horrible person for wanting to have fun, I should be ashamed...
>>46113681
what the fuck are you smoking
>>46113743
/tg/ doesn't play any games we only complain about them.
>>46113667
I guess I effectively murdered that straw man then
>>46107663
A reroll mechanic is nothing more or less than a way to give a blanket bonus to a roll without having to do math. Counting modifiers is annoying (see: every D&D game before 5) so it's a way to get rid of some of that. It's not fucking "easy mode", it's literally just a different way to apply a bonus to a roll.
>>46113756
>That Guy justifies cheating with the classic "it's in the book so I can do it!" archetype
>>46113759
It's not what I'm smoking it's what kool-aid I'm not drinking when it comes to permissive shit "games"
>>46113787
>using something supported and sanctioned by the rules themselves is cheating
wew lad
>>46113782
It's actualy more of a randomized bonus I think with a d20 it's +4 on average but it's probably better to think of it as 1d8-1
>>46113549
What the fuck do you think we're talking about? Nobody is talking about just letting people reroll whenever they feel like it, we're talking about games that specifically include a reroll mechanic.
>>46113810
That's... no. The size of the effective bonus depends on how likely you were to succeed in the first place, but it's not random.
>>46113797
Abusing the rules to give yourself a retarded advantage has always been cheating, deal with it shrimp chimp
>>46113849
By that logic anyone who's ever played a caster in 3.x is a cheater, you subnormal retardotron
>>46113849
>playing well has always been cheating
>>46113795
were you dropped on your head as a child or did your parents consider drain cleaner a fun and nutritious drink
because you have yet to say what games you are even talking about and you seem to have the grasp of statistics of someone who plays the lottery
>>46113849
How badly gimped are your characters that a few rerolls a session is gamebreakingly overpowered?
>>46113880
>>46113883
>>46113902
>minmaxing shitbags flip the fuck out trying to defend their shitty scam
Same cancer different day :^)
>>46108151
This is the top 5 things I've punted players for.
1: Discussing MOBAs. (I have an explicit rule against this)
2: Not showing up or paying attention.
3: 15-minute-workday bullshit.
4: Pronouns other than HE or SHE.
5: Sniveling.
Any game master worth his salt will punish the fuck out of players who think that the entire universe grinds to a halt when they're not present.
>>46114043
Look if you're that bad at making a character i'm sure someone in your group would be willing to help you.
I mean what else are friends for?
>>46108151
The 5 minute day is the single biggest made-up problem ever. It's literally a problem that only exists in theorycrafting. No DM would allow you to rest after every fight, no matter what the rules say.
>>46114084
> Pronouns other than He or She
How does it feel to be on the wrong side of history dad?
>>46113655
Wouldn't two chances at 50% be a 75% success rate?
>>46114215I ban them for their own protection, I don't want to offend them :V
>>46114215
Not him, but pretty good. Tumblr bullshit is kept to a minimum, less screeching and butthurt ensues.
Except of course when tumblrists are booted, but that's just funny
>>46114242
>Tumblrist
Gamergate still at a standstill, huh?
No innocent women for you to terrorize so you have to make up boogeymen/women?
>>46114262
>brings up GG out of nowhere
>talks about making up boogeymans
The lack of self-awareness is strong in this one.
>>46114262
>No one mentioned gamergate
>Bring up gamergate
Somebody post the pic about the guy complaining about pancakes.
>>46114262
>innocent women
No such thing.
>>46114262
>le gaymurgate harasser
Found the tumblristor the shitty b8
>>46114200
"We just waste the rest of the day doing random stuff in town, then sleep"
Oh, some stuff attacked us while we were wasting the day? RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLL RRRRRRRRRROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDD
>>46114275
>>46114277
>>46114275
>>46114277
>>46114280
>>46114299
>>46114328
>samefagging this hard
Aren't you late for a fedora fitting or something?
>>46114352
Nah, those are all your posts.
>>46114352
Aren't you late for your wife's son's baseball practice?
>>46114084
Do you have a warning system in place or not?
>>46114352
>>46114215
feels pretty good to be on the side of, you know, protecting society
i know having things like standards, integrity and decency is alien to you parasites but at least you won't be a problem much longer
>>46114084
>4: Pronouns other than HE or SHE.
What about creatures with non-standard genders? There are quite a few single gender (But not lacking gender) creatures in D&D. Or heck, the whole Correlion Lathereon thing with that damn elf being both genders at once quite often.
>>46114420
I think people of the opposite side of your political orientation can possess standards, integrity and decency. Maybe that's just me though.
>>46114451
"Them" or "it" are words that exist anon
>>46114456
Leftist as fuck here, I'm sick of tumblr faggots ruining everything with identity politics horseshit and made up pronouns. It's not just a right/left divide.
>>46114481
I feel you anon, it's just that even with them. I'd prefer to at least think of them as being human beings.
>>46114451
I didn't realize that having a non-standard gender meant you could break basic English rules they teach you in fucking elementary school. There is already a gender-neutral pronoun you can use. THEY/THEM. It's not necessary or correct for you to fill your fucking essays with "thon-thon" and "xer" because you want to be a special fucking snowflake fucking attack helicopter-kin faggot. Yes I'm mad. You should see the shit I have to tell people to stop doing when writing their fucking papers for goddamn graduate level courses.
>>46114525"They/Them" gets you kicked out as well for being a faggot
>>46114507
>I'm first in line to ridicule white males for their colonial capitalist heteronormative toxic masculinity but if you make a joke about a man wearing a dress you are dehumanizing.
>>46114507
Well if they wanted to be human beings they should use human pronouns.
They can be called "Xir" if they want, but last I checked Xir is also a general in the army of the evil Galactic Lord Xenu (so sayeth our lord and savior Tom Cruise), thus any Xirs out there must secretly be alien sympathizers plotting the downfall of humanity.
>>46114625
>Putting words in my mouth
Bitch please.
>>46114670
Stop dehumanizing me
>>46114656
Why is it that only SJWs like this reroll shit?
>>46114678
Start acting like a real human.
>>46114753
Did you have to use a reroll on that comment or did you come up with it the first time
>>46114737
I added a reroll mechanism to my game. I added it as a reward for a pretty long quest they were doing after one dude kept bitching about failing everything and there not being any rerolls. They get one reroll to share among the party, and if anyone burns it it's gone for good.
>>46114737
>using reroll mechanics makes you an SJW
what
>>46114084
>>4: Pronouns other than HE or SHE.
What about "I," "you," "them," or "me?"
>>46114871
>muh bard didn do nuffin he jus a gud boy who crit failed on trying to swing his lute like a club and bashed his own head in because he's a retard
>>46114737
Cool blanket statement based on no information whatsoever.
>>46114907
>still playing a game where you have a 5% chance of going full retard, regardless of how you fight or what you're doing
>>46114945
>implying gurps doesn't have retarded bards or crit fails
>>46114962
>playing Roleplaying for Accountants and Spergs
>ever
>>46114996
>so retarded you can't figure out a simple RPG system without brain go splodey
>>46115014
>simple
>and slow and clunky as ass with chargen that takes forever
>can do anything but nothing well
>even other universal systems are better
>>46115050
You got me there. Fuck gurps.
>>46114945
>>46114962
>>46114996
>>46115014
>>46115050
GREENTEXT FIGHT
>>46115093
With shitposting this thread began, and with shitposting it will end
>>46114871
No, it's just crazy cultural marxists who keep coming into the thread defending that reroll shit. Maybe it's the patriarchy making their dice roll 1
I don't know why you all are fighting.
You act like the second roll won't be worse than the first anyway.
>>46115312
>we should give in to temper tantrums by players who don't like what came up on the dice because they might get something they don't like the second time and wouldn't that be funny?
Not worth it.
>>46114894
#6 on the list is probably "Being a smartass without being funny"
>>46115275
You know, I have the strangest feeling that you are being facetious.
>>46107663
I bet you hate the idea of Easy mode in vidya games too?
>>46115642
I bet you try to defend the idea of Easy mode in vidya games, too?
>>46107663
>>46108073
You realize just how many factors play a role even IRL when trying to succeed?
>>46116065
Rerolling dice when you don't want to have failed being none of them
>>46115642
Yes
I still don't see the problem with a limited reroll mechanic. It's not like you're allowed to reroll every roll until you succeed, or worse, instantly turn a failure into a success.
Also, if the players getting rerolls is so broken, why not allow the GM rerolls as a balance?
>>46117045
Why do you think that people should be able to change the result of dice rolls just because they don't like what the result was?
>>46114385
Only for sniveling and not showing up or paying attention. Attention whoring or being a total faggot is a boot in the arse.
I've run out of patience over the years.
>>46117271
I don't think they should, and with a properly designed rerll mechanic, they can't. If they tried rerolling every roll they didn't like, they would run out out of rerolls by the time they roll badly on an important roll. This would force players to consider their rerolls as a tool, much like their equipment and their spells.
>>46114200
if only everyone was as retarded as you then maybe yes, we wouldn't know of it. Except that's not the case, and people looked up spells from Rope Trick to shape stone to mordenkainen's magnificent mansion. So if every dungeon, engagement, or quest somehow foils every one of those then yes, welcome to railroad town and you've officially admitted it's a problem that you don't know any other way to solve for.
>>46114801
Rerolls are a meta mechanic, so there's no way of knowing. Only their player knows whether a reroll was spent or not.
>>46108096
This
>>46115014
You know what else is simple? Moving a mountain from here to there. All you have to do is grab a shovel, and start moving one load at a time. Real simple.
Doesn't mean it's not tedious as fuck, or that anybody in their right mind would want to do it.
I have a better one.
>System gives 'fate points' or whatever to the GM
>>46114084
>Discussing MOBAs. (I have an explicit rule against this
This one's just weird.
This is the strangest thread on /tg/ right now.
The random accusations and blanket statements, the unwillingness to understand the nature of dice rolling or what meta-mechanics actually do and most of all the willingness to keep replying.
God it's like listening to tranny-anon in the mtg spoiler threads it's just non-securer insults and shitposting, why are any of you still here?
