Whats your least favorite campaign cliche?
>>46106873
BBEG is a lich. It's always a fucking lich. Way to be original, faggots.
>>46106873
>the party walks into a tavern
>the party enters a town exactly as shit is going down
>the BBEG killed/captured players' parents/siblings
There is a Quest Board in the tavern
player characters with living relatives or close friends
>>46106873
incompetent military leaders
Bumbling idiot nobles
Blindly faithful and unwavering clergymen
Innocent and trusting children
>>46107024
>Innocent and trusting military leaders
>Blindly faithful and unwavering nobles
>Incompetent clergymen
>Bumbling idiot children
Better?
>>46107024
Faithful and unwavering clergymen are literally the best clergymen.
Anything involving leaving your homeland and never being able to go back.
I like the concept sometimes in a story but one of our old dm's used to use this to start any and all games he ran. Even ones that he had use learn about where we are from and who is there, just to have it become useless information 25 minutes later.
I know being able to romanticize or show open disdain for your past grows old when that is all we have from campaign start that he wants us to roleplay in almost all aspects of our actions.
>>46106873
DM being too scared to include proper dungeons because they're worried about being too cliched. I swear like my last three campaigns... sometimes I want to go on a fucking delve, guys!
>>46107082
>children
FTFY
>>46106944
I like it when liches are not necessarily evil, just random folks who had enough magical power or knowledge or whatever that process requires in that setting (or enough money to pay off someone who does) and needed more time in the world.
There's one guy who was a professor of history and got pissed at the lack of sources regarding a particular point in history (a previous campaign had led to the accidental burning of several notable libraries), so he made himself a lich so he could be a primary source for all historians in the future.
I remember one of my players' favorite NPCs was a horse breeder who realized that he could only work on so many generations of horses before he died. So he got some guy to turn him into a lich and spent the next few centuries breeding the best horses in the entire universe. Because he was (a) immortal and (b) not the kind of person who gave a shit about money and just requested random stuff, he became a recurring character who gave fun fetchquests when people were tired of killing eldritch horrors and evil dragons.
You want a draft horse to carry your wagon of loot? I have one here that won't freak out when the arrows start flying and can keep on chugging for days on end, but you'll need to bring me the man with the biggest ears in all the lands. I have a charger here that can bowl over any dwarf, but I need the princess' panties (not magical realm, just instigating a competition between the bard and the rogue)
>>46107393
>I remember one of my players' favorite NPCs was a horse breeder who realized that he could only work on so many generations of horses before he died. So he got some guy to turn him into a lich and spent the next few centuries breeding the best horses in the entire universe.
I'm so taking this
>>46106873
>there are no real good or bad guys, everything is morally grey, no choice is the right one
Fuck off. I don't give a shit if you think it's mature or sophisticated, I don't give a shit if you think I'm emotionally stunted, I don't even give a shit if you call me a moralfag. I get enough of this morally ambiguous grey area bullshit in real life and I don't need it in my escapist fantasy elfgames, and I especially don't need to be "taught a lesson about life" or however else you try to rationalize your edgy teenager-level high school philosophy Babby's First Nietzsche garbage.
Fuck right off.
>>46107655
Holy shit, this! Grey morals are so fucking boring.
>WAAAAH! The world is a bad place so I'm going to fix it by using very evil ways instead of gathering support from people. ;__;
>>46107655
>I can't handle realizing I'm not the white knight faggot I think I am.
>>46107741
Some people are really shit at gathering support.
>>46107655
This.
This type of shit gets popular every 10-15 years and gets stale within a year of its rebirth.
>>46107749
Why are you upset though?
>>46107653
The problem is that you need some reason that the average joe who's afraid of dying or every paranoid king ever doesn't become a lich. I just said, "Only a few people can make others into liches, it's like sorcerers. These people tend to not care about money and universally have a weird sense of humor. Somebody thought it would be funny to have an immortal horse breeder wandering around."
I like it when liches can, with effort, look like a somewhat-normal human being. One guy was a masochist who would go around picking fights with city guards and knights and drunks and whatnot and then get his rocks off as they beat the shit out of him. Confused the hell out of the players when he simply refused to die.
>>46107655
>>46107741
A good compromise on this aspect is to have "light grey/dark grey" morality, no one's truly a good guy but some are definitely closer than others. Or go the 40k route and make everyone morally black, because it'sfun
>>46107749
> "I want to play pretend so I can unambiguously be the hero for a little while and not have to deal with all the real world bullshit."
> LULZKEXIMUSZOMFG 2EDGEY4MENECKBEARDFEDEORATHEISM FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT LOOK HOW COOL AND AWESOMESAUCE AND MATURE AND EDGEY I AM 4 SAYING FAGGOT U GUIZE
The more important question is what's your favorite campaign cliche?
>>46107885
/v/irgin detected
>>46107932
Because hyperbolically restating someone's argument to demonstrate how fucking stupid it is has only ever happened on /v/
>>46106873
Least Favorite:
>there are dedicated "guilds" for Fighters, Thieves, and Rogues.
>>46107889
Favorite:
Being part of a Night's Watch/Grey Wardens style organization. I love the idea of characters sworn to put themselves between the ungrateful masses and the spooky monsters, whether they're willing or not.
>>46107869
It's not so bad when the GM pushing it actually knows what he's doing and knows more than the average 16 year old about morality and philosophy. I've had some damn good GMs who have pulled off moral ambiguity in a game, and the secret is that they don't have an antagonistic relationship their players and aren't out to make players feel bad and (this is the one that makes me laugh hardest) aren't out to "teach us a lesson."
Ending the campaign by ruthlessly murdering the villain after he begs for death was very satisfying. We committed some heinous crimes and vile sins, but we won and the world was a better place because we were willing to get our hands bloody, and I think it was actually even more satisfying than if we had managed to stay squeaky clean and keep the moral high ground the whole time.
>>46107990
One anon summed up how a GM should approach morality quite brilliantly, and I really wish I'd capped it.
He compared moral philosophies to trees. It's his job to make them available. It's the players' job to decide if they want them or not.
>>46107889
>friendly but cryptic old wizards with long beards and pointed hats and who live in secluded towers
>mysterious prophecies
>unambiguously evil villains
>rescuing a princess, preferably from a dragon
>a good old-fashioned dungeon delve complete with traps, slimes, and a boss fight in a conveniently spacious room, with a treasure hoard at the end
>bumbling but well-meaning city guards
>the grizzled tough-as-nails blacksmith
>>46107767
And sometimes it's faster, easier, and a hell of a lot more satisfying to put on a ski mask and get some matches, oily rags, and a can of gasoline than it is to gather like-minded support and circulate petitions and raise public awareness and contact your member of parliament and holy fucking shit can't we just burn this dude's house down while he's asleep and carve a message into his dog? Fucking hell
I don't know why, but I've always been interested in children with special magical abilities... Might ask my Dm if I can play one sometime.
>>46107969
Alternatives to dedicated "guilds"?
Fight clubs, organized crime, schools of magic...
>>46107889
>Favorite
Taverns. Fuck me if it's unoriginal, but it is hands down the easiest way to gather the party.
>>46107176
One of my best sessions as a PC was a random dungeon one off. Just because sometimes it's fun to try something awesome and not care if it gets you killed.
>>46107655
Okay.
Everything sucks and there is no good at all.
It is all black.
Blacker than the blackest black, blacker than pitch, blacker than your girlfriend's boyfriend, blacker than the abyss and eventual heat death of the universe.
>>46108362
so... vantablack?
>>46108362
>what is 40k
>>46108362
Sure, but I have to be in the right mood and mindset for that.
>>46108315
Ideally they should have some purpose and agenda beyond simply being a source of quests for the players.
Mercenary companies are an obvious alternative to Fighter's Guild, though I feel that would still get really boring after awhile.
Magical School can also work, but that goes hand in hand with the "Magic is just Fantasy STEM" tropes I also can't stand. I'd rather use cults, secret societies, and orders if I wanted my players to have a magic user's organization.
Thieves Guilds just shouldn't exist at all. Gangs and crime rings are what should replace them.
>>46108382
Holy shit that's cool.
>>46108362
So, blacker than the blackest black times infinity?
Sounds rather brutal.
>>46108422
I see.
That actually makes a lot of sense.
I tend to dislike an oversimplified implementations of aspects of shit.
It's a society version of the muderhobo.
>>46108422
> implying thieves' guilds aren't the precursors to modern crime rings and gangs
>>46108704
thieves guilds are fucking stupid and have never existed.
>>46108806
> implying you're any sort of authority on anything except Doritos
>>46108806
>>46108704
Thief Guilds are boring compared to crime rings and gangs.
>>46108881
> implying they're not the same fucking thing with a different name
>the GM can't decide on a coherent setting and does a non-planescape multiverse campaign
>>46106873
Airships. Adventurer guilds. Magic marts.
>>46106873
People of any gender can be heroes
>>46108891
Every organized crime group has had its on the street thugs, hitmen, etc. Video game "thieves guilds" are always just a group of knock-off Robin Hoods who neeeeeeever use violence, and decide to hang out in the same tavern.
>>46107889
Cute, haughty princesses that need rescuing
>>46108931
With crime groups you get baggage with ruthless terrible fuckers, not people looking to educate you and being a bunch of Robin Hood fucks.
At this point it's "misunderstood or good guy liches/ necromancers". Jesus fuck that's stupid and every DM I get seems to do it.
>>46109013
Stop playing with /tg/.
>>46108931
Where do you propose the chaotic neutral-to-good rogues should be hanging out, then.
>>46109013
> I hate something mildly popular look at me and how egdey and cool I am
>>46109058
Among the rest of the riff raff. They're just softer.
>make players think it's all grey
>make them suspect the BBEG might be a good guy
>it's actually a PR stunt to weaken their morale
>he's really evil as fuck
>mfw
>>46108137
To be fair it's even more satisfying to do it after you've built enough support. First gather support, then burn the fucker down.
>>46108315
>>46107969
This, class guilds were always retarded. It made a modicum of sense with wizards when they were assumed to be learned men, and a thieves' guild was basically the courts of Miracles (there was a lot more than one) in Paris except cleaner. Expanding it beyond that was dumb.
>>46109089
If you're a smuggler, you want to minimize the violence because the corpse trail can lead straight to you.
>>46109199
This post sounds exactly like Ice T from SVU.
> Players lose all their gear due to act of plot that they couldn't avoid.
Yes, it can make for a good plot point. But every time I've seen it happen, it's gone one of two ways:
- The system is one where gear isn't important. So nobody cares about the lost gear.
- The system has some PCs more reliant on their gear than others. Causing one player to outshine the others until we get our gear back.
Worse still, the reasons for us losing our gear always raise questions about why we weren't hurt any further. Questions that are rarely answered.
>>46109183
> what are unions
>>46107889
Dwarves being stereotypical dwarves. I just love the stunty, belligerent, petty, Scottish little bastards.
>>46109071
>look at how clever I am for doing simple, boring inversion of a cliche!
>>46107655
Found the guy who just wants the direction to the next orc camp and slaughter for his heart content.
>>46108927
This
Men should stick to being villains and nameless NPCs
>>46109377
Agreed, I hate fantasy representation of men being in charge when they've always been the disposable slave gender
>>46109071
I dislike something you like, man. There's no need to get angry about it.
>>46109393
on a related note
>the STONK INDEPENDENT WYMYN cliche
>>46108075
Oh baby.
>>46109058
Your rogues never use violence? Shit man, you've been playing wrong. First session as a rogue on a mission from the Thieve's Guild I knocked an old man unconscious then accidentally lit his house on fire. Much more fun.
>>46107082
Conversely, I've gotten sick of corrupt clergymen.
I get it. The Catholic church had a problem. That doesn't mean literally everyone who goes to church is a completely irredeemable shitbag. This is even more frustrating when it happens in a setting where Random Acts of God happen every other month or so.
>>46109277
Didn't really properly exist and early stages were much more militant protesters than simple organizations. Unions were basically gangs in the beginning.
>>46109264
I ask my dm everytime before a campaign if my items are ok. Everytime he steals them, and noramally its very poorly executed. ( i lost a wagon 15 feet behind me.)
>>46109543
>that fucking unbearable capitalization
you deserve anything you get
>>46109543
> using past tense
>The tough tomboy who joined the army to show those silly boys that girlz can be as strong as them
>>46106873
>You and your party are the chosen ones from a prophecy centuries old and you will destroy the great evil that plague this lands...
>Your best friend or mentor NPC sacrificed him/herself just for you
>>46106873
The queen is secretly ebil
The princess is demure and soft-spoken
The enemies don't have a concept of morale, not even the supposed cowardly kobolds/goblins
Orcs as noble savages
Dwarves as mountain-dwelling jews
>>46107889
Save the princess from the evil sorceror
Defeat the enemy warlord in single combat to return peace to the land
The king's butler is secretly his strongest and most intimidating bodyguard the party have faced yet
>>46107655
People need the reason to be bad,nobody wakes up one day and decides to destroy the whole world.
The problem comes when at the last moment of the BBEG life DM tries to pull "He was the good guy all along, he dindu nothing" and expect like you are supposed to feel bad,or even join him
>>46107885
If shitposting were an olympic sport, you would've just won the gold medal. Good lord.
>>46110048
The players have no concept of morale
>>46109277
Professions aren't classes, unions aren't guilds, and if you were to use guilds properly, the only characters who would have a guild would be non-adventuring NPCs for the most part and anyone who thought the artisan/merchant background was fun.
>>46107889
Evil wizards. Boy do I love me some evil wizards. From Thulsa Doom to Voldemort those motherfuckers don't disappoint.
>>46107932
>XD am i cool yet??
Personally, I'm more fond of "HURRR"
>>46109277
Parasitic institution that feeds upon working people under the guise of helping them?
Yeah, sounds like adventurer guilds.
>>46108931
Except in Skyrimjob, surprisingly.
>>46110516
I took the feat fearless, I'm allowed to play it that way.
>>46110585
>taking the feat fearless
>playing a coward who only slaughters peasents, but runs away from a dragon, dooming comerades and citizen by letting them behind
>>46108960
This. I am all about the princesses, but I don't think I've ever actually gotten to play in a campaign where we've met one. I occasionally use them when DMing, but its just not the same.
>>46106873
The cliche where the DM actively avoids cliches because they're 'overused'
I was fucking giddy when one session was about a man murdered in the tavern we slept in and we would be arrested unless we found the real culprit.
I still haven't saved a princess from a dragon
>>46109543
>That DM who's in-game churches we can never trust because they are always corrupt 100% of the time.
>We ask him to stop making churches corrupt before a new game because it's getting old.
>He cancels the game because apparently the entire plot revolved around, surprise surprise, the church being corrupt, and taking that away ruined his plot to the point of being unplayable.
>>46108353
No it isn't.
Just having the idiots agree pre-game to be part of a larger adventuring company skips that bullshit 1.5 hours of garbage introductions.
>>46109697
Wanna really compare the medieval clergy with the one of today?
>>46107889
getting recruited at a tavern to save a fucking princess from a god damn dragon
>>46110557
>t. I'm a good boss
>>46107024
>>46107082
>>46107100
you need more plot twists to keep your players interested
>local bishop has been abducting children
>but it turns out they were vampire children
>but it turns out he's been molesting them
>but it turns out that's the only way to turn them back
>but it turns out they were actually kender
>>46115782
>local bishop molesting vampire kender to turn them into living human children
oh god my sides have achieved FTL travel
>>46106873
>The only reason the king is paying your group to go slay some trolls in the countryside is because his own army isn't strong enough to.
>Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to threaten him and his kingdom, since your four man group is obviously more powerful than his ten thousand strong army.
>>46110571
>they all hang out in a tavern
>explicitly tell you to not kill anyone unless your back is against the wall
>>46115577
>Just having the idiots agree pre-game to be part of a larger adventuring company skips that bullshit 1.5 hours of garbage introductions.
This. Although with the right plot and some anything-approaching-competent players, I am a really big fan of "you find yourself waking up in a field. You have all the gear that's on your sheet with you. There are [the other PCs] laying around you, also quickly coming awake. How did you end up here (do you think)?" Opens up the game a bit so the players can drop some of their backstory and what into the game directly, and gets people moving in the right direction with both getting together as a party and looking for the plot without a pile of cliches and railroading.
>>46106873
My least-favourite is probably the magic item shop and by extension the christmas tree character, covered with shiny magical baubles that all give +1s and +2s. Magic items just plain don't feel special in a game like that.
D&D 5e got rid of the ridiculous magic item economy and I love it for that.
>>46115846
>sending your expensive mercenaries to do pest control
Adventurers are cheap and desperately want to rise. Mercenaries are there for the important stuff.
>>46115846
That is actually pretty reasonable given the mechanics of the system in question.
>>46116014
I just make most magical items not magical and bake in all the little pluses into standard progression.
I always felt it was really shitty that after a certain point, it's not about your characters skill and potential just how much SHIT he has on him.
Quite frankly, I'm honestly begging to dislike the very idea of a "magical item". It just seems like shitty macguffin bait.
Dead parents to provide a tragic backstory. There are so many better options if you want your character to be tragic.
>>46106873
Big defining moments where there's no good option and if you figure one out, the GM shits on it.
>You have to choose, do you side with the Mercenaries who are currently raping and killing villagers in the forests, or do you side with the wood elves and kill the villagers for encroaching upon the elves sacred territory?
>Gee, I guess I do neither of them. I want to travel to the nearest village and try to get them to evacuate, I'll help and hire carts from outside the forest to transport goods and-
>No there's not enough time, the mercenaries attack tomorrow
>And the Elves?
>They will attack soon
>Shit, I'd better leave the forest then
>No you have to choose
Fuck you.
>>46107889
Redeeming a bad guy or making a hero out of a common folk. That peasant you pull from the wreckage of a pillaged church and meet him again years later, he's a roaming cleric/paladin now and he helps you out. Unf.
>>46107889
>noble savage orcs
>the church is evil
>>46116115
Why not just kill the mercenaries and the elves so they can leave the villagers alone?
Where is the choice in that even?
>kill vilagers
>or kill villagers
Why bother choosing, if I have such a hate boner for the village why aren't I making the Mercs and elves cooperate. Why can't I leave the village, they're right fucked anyway?
>>46116024
A point that most PCs seem to miss completely.
>>46116026
Maybe if you're playing demigods. The problem is most players have main character syndrome and are stuck in the mind set that they're always unstoppable characters.
>>46116163
Most systems that have PC's fighting trolls that are too strong for fucking armies, the PC's will be too strong for the fucking army. Divine or not.
If adventurers where cheap and capable of stopping trolls, why the fuck are they wandering vagrants instead of in the army. Why am I paying weak common bumfucks to protect my shit, when I could be paying strong common bumfucks to protect my shit?
>>46106873
My least favourite cliché by far is the "you're trapped in a magical X and the only way to escape is to do Y", to the point that I flat out refuse to play any such games. It's such a lazy way to force players to follow your plot without actually offering them some kind of reward.
>"Morally gray" setting.
>Everyone's just an asshole for no reason.
Lame.
>>46116115
>making a hero out of randoms
Although not a cliche, I like the villianous version of this. That unconcious gang chick who you couldn't bother to kill after killing the rest of her lot? Yeah, the gang assumed that she'd snitched or betrayed them, so they took her eye and let the pyscho have a hour with her. It's been five years, you say? Well, she remembers why she got maimed, and she's gotten crafty and exploitative...
>>46116162
In the situation described I was playing a warrior born within said forest. Apparently it meant the Elves had marked me as forest-born or some shit, and thus they allowed me the fantastic opportunity of joining up with them to help them kill both my village as well as the dozens of others within the mighty forest. I didn't have the time to kill the mercenaries of the Elves and I suspected that whichever one I joined wouldn't have attacked first, based on my decision, so I'd be able to go with my new mates to fuck the village up first.
>>46116385
You depraved monster, how could you?!
>>46116162
>the church is evil
>look mom I'm edgy!!!
>>46106873
>you were really the bad guys all along
>none of you expected this despite it being the really obvious plot twist
>this is the deepest game I've ever run for anyone, clearly I am a master storyteller
Why can't I just play a good guy for once in my life? Why does there always have to be a shitty plot twist like this halfway through?
>>46116353
That's not morally gray.
>>46109543
My group actually has the opposite problem, there can never be any intrigue related to churches because they're always good/in the right. Even the ones who worship evil gods.
>>46116240
>Divine or not.
They and the trolls would have to be at least somewhat divine for this to be the case. Which is fine, but it doesn't apply to every setting or system.
>why the fuck are they wandering vagrants instead of in the army.
Because they don't want to be in the army? Like most people?
>Why am I paying weak common bumfucks to protect my shit, when I could be paying strong common bumfucks to protect my shit?
Because strong common bumfucks still cost more than weak ones. You're using adventurers because any movement of your army will be noticed by your neighbors and could be seen as a threatening gesture, because your army of strong bumfucks exists to protect the capital and surrounding areas, to deter your enemies, and enforce your authority as king, not to slay some troublesome trolls near the edge of your realm. Because if it turns out that the adventurers are too weak for the trolls, you don't have to compensate them or their families for their deaths or injuries, and your army isn't weakened either.
This isn't rocket science.
>>46116524
Well let me elaborate, I like it when a seemingly beneficial organization has less than savory ulterior motives or is very untrustworthy when you look under the hood.
>>46109111
Shadowrun as fuck
>>46116771
I imagine army movements would be less threatening when "giant man eating monsters" are part of the local fauna.
>>46109111
That shit is great when done well.
Characters who are orphans and even worse when they know their parents regardless of being orphans from birth. I lie not I came across a guy who wrote that into his backstory.
>>46106873
>the empire are a bunch of evil shits who are more interested in establishing order and handing coin to the lords than they are in the people of the realm
>somehow, this empire has an army of loyal commoner soldiers
>>46116547
I know. That's the point I'm trying to make.
A lot of you really dig the "save the princess" shit.
>>46107655
Perfect.
>>46107889
Conversations with the court of Maniaster, Zodiac King.
>>46116385
This sounds pretty interesting, would like to see it happen.
>>46109513
Violence is evil.
>>46107889
>the princess doesn't want to be married off to some old faggot
>she wants to be like the knights and heroes in her storybooks
>she has orchestrated her own disappearance, disguised herself as an adolescent boy and run off to find some heroic dudes to join up with
>>46116922
Don't tease me with campaigns I'll never get to play.
>>46116811
Tell that to the adviser next door who's begging for an excuse to go tell his King to go to war with you. A king controls his army, he does not
control some rowdy trolls.
And try to understand that loosing a few farmers and heads of sheep is nothing compared to having entire acres pillaged and razed as the enemy marches towards your castle.
>>46116963
Why not?
Seems like a pretty simple backstory and a damn good number of plot hooks.
As a GM I'd take that character and run like hell with it.
>>46116963
You can do it, anon.
>something on your ship isn't working which forces your characters to stay on a world they'd rather not be on
>>46116385
>That unconcious gang chick who you couldn't bother to kill after killing the rest of her lot?
>Yeah, she came back to fuck your day up
Three sessions later you'll be complaining about how your players are bloodthirsty murderhobos who lack mercy.
>>46106873
>Females are never evil, just 'misguided'
>Lady villains are always seductresses or hags seeking beauty/youth
>Kings/authority figures are incompetent without fail
>The good guys are actually the bad guys and vice versa, oh no!
>>46109446
>no need to get angry
where do you think you are? who needs a need to get angry?
>>46110752
It's totes IC, I took the feat fearless so I gotta go to areas I fear less right?
>>46107655
>there is an objective good and evil
>your magic spell instantly tells you that this is an objectively bad person and must be dealt with
I'll take grey all day,
>>46116064
A magic item should be a really, really, really, really special thing in my opinion. A sword made by the gods, a wand that the great archwizard used eons ago, armor that doesn't just protect the wearer but turns them into a raging whirlwind of annihilation for a cost, etc.
And on top of that, it should be limited to one (two at the very most) of those sorts of magic items per character.
>>46107655
But every time I run with objective morality, people whine about the "social justice" boogeymen.
>>46118777
Then D&D is not the game for you. Lucky, then, that there are so many games and systems out there that do exactly what you want!
>>46107889
The hero who just will not give up and keeps fighting beyond what most would consider fight-stopping injuries.
The coward who, at the darkest moment, stands up, quivering and stuttering but still doing his very best to help turn the situation around.Bonus points if he's not actually that strong.
>>46118866
I've actually never run D&D. I'm about to run aGURPScampaign soon though and I'm super pumped.
>>46113297
>Supercool reddit memer DM has been using the same concept over and over
>tell him stop it or I won't bring cheetos and dew anymore
>DM recoils in shock, rolls rippling at the movement. Once recovered, from the threat of losing his energy source, he sets down his copy of 'The God Delusion' and burps a burp that smells of intelligence and week old pizza poppers.
>DM tips fedora and gurgles 'very well good sir, you've found my weakness.' through a mouthful of hotpockets and semen. 'give me 2 days to waddle home, and another to come up with something'
>>46118736
>>your magic spell instantly tells you that this is an objectively bad person and must be dealt with
>I'll take grey all day,
you make a good point, so, henceforth, all my campaigns will have detect good/evil as detect malevolence/benevolence, or possibly remove it entirely. also protection from good/evil will be changed to protection from harm, and dispel good/evil is now dispel change.
>>46116847
One day, I'm gonna run a game where the PCs have to rescue a princess from a dragon turtle that has taken up residence in a castle, but once they fight their way to the final chamber, they realize the map's compass was upside down and they've gone to the wrong castle.
>>46109013
Because the only people who ever want to be immortal are evil
>>46109013
Because "evil necromancer" is such an interesting and nuanced character concept.
>>46116838
I don't like the America cliche either anon.
>>46116838
Literally America.
>>46118062
>Females are never evil, just 'misguided'
I resent this kind of behavior. The 'oh women are always innocent/don't need to take personal responsibility for their actions' 'its not her fault! she had no choice!'. It happens with male characters, but only occasionally.
Shit happens in real life, tv, videogames, books, etc.
There's a television show about a real life female serial killer on currently, paints her in a great light even though she was a sociopath that murdered people for no real reason other than they inconvenienced her.
>inb4 /pol/
>>46119548
>no real reason other than they inconvenienced her.
Serves them right for geting in the way of strong independant womyn!
>>46107655
Ok, we're running all-evil campaings only from here on. Rev up those war crimes.
>>46106970
>party enters town and there's nothing to do
>everything's fine, no baddies, no monsters
>party moves on to next town
I get what you're saying, it's the timing. But regardless of if the "shit" started a week ago or just now, it's a plot hook.
Or are you saying you would prefer things happen before the party gets there?
>It's now considered original and refreshing to run the most unoriginal and uninspired campaign ever
>The characters with the least background and nuance are considered the best
>>46106944
I ran a campaign in high school where the party ran into a lich while trying to figure out why the weather was so strange, torrential rains for weeks followed by beautiful days where the sky was lit up in all manner of colors, long story short against the wishes of the surrounding towns which loved their situation the party found the culprit who was a lich bard literally rocking out on top of a mountain and was effecting the weather with his music
>>46108315
Unorganized Magic Fight Clubs?
>>46120434
Hey, at least I'm in a job.
>>46120524
You're lucky to be in a job
And in a bed~
>>46120548
Barwench, please.
>>46120449
And?
>>46109393
>>46109377
kys senpai
>>46116922
Stfu you dumb stark bitch
your familys dead and you should be too
>>46107889
Ancient machinery and other remains of the destruction of great civilizations.
>>46107889
My favorite cliche is when the players have to choose either to fight someone they care about or back down from a major goal.
dont mind me trying something
>46118807
>>46118807
>>>46118807
>46118831
>>46118831
>>>46118831
>>46107889
Everyman heroes
>Blacksmith leads a peasant revolt with his hammer as his main weapon
>Folk heroes are just local chumps that guard the town
>Crazy old farmer that knows everything about beasts in the night and how to fight them
>Motherfucking Donnel
>>46121226
>>46106873
> If you kill him, you'll become just like him!
> The Church is secretly evil.
> Corrupt corporation is behind everything.
> Negotiating peace between different races.
> The Necromancer/demon/undead isn't actually evil.
>>46116922
Then she gets raped.
A lot.
Remember what happened to the girl in the Night Watch's story, who disguised herself as a boy? They said she died REALLY bad.
>>46123798
> If you kill him, you'll become just like him!
This is pretty grating.
It comes from people watching Return of the Jedi and not realizing Luke's refusal to kill Vader was far more nuanced than that.
A hero being reluctant to kill a villain is fine, but this is such a lazy way to explain it.
>>46125732
>>46107889
>Death is pretty reasonable and will give you a second chance if you beat him in a game of some sort
>The chancellor/second-in-command is a backstabbing prick
>Ancient evil sealed away for a thousand years is finally free
>Conceited but well-meaning adventurer who despite constantly getting over their head and needing the player party to rescue him, thinks he's the most illustrious hero and the PCs are adoring fans/proteges
>BBEG's second in command is constantly berated/abused by his master and eventually changes sides just out of spite
>Wandering old man/woman turns out to be a powerful being in disguise who rewards/punishes someone for their actions
>Antagonist grudgingly teams up with the PCs to stop an even worse threat
>>46106873
Campaigns that try so hard to avoid or subvert cliches that they just become incomprehensible bullshit.
>>46107655
>not realizing that there is a place for both
Stories where good is good, evil is evil, and the good guys win through determination, teamwork, and honesty while the bad guys fail to their own underhanded schemes are awesome. They are uplifting, life-affirming, enjoyable stories. They make us want to go out and conquer the world, because we just know that if we really mean well everything will work out in the end.
Stories where the evil guy's motivations are almost more reasonable than the good guy's, where both sides make mistakes, question themselves and their purpose, and eventually annihilate each other in a pyrrhic victory from which no one escapes unscathed are awesome too. They make us question and re-evaluate our own morals, our own motivations. They provide catharsis for the lingering angst of our own inadequacy because they are so very human.
>>46106873
The rogue steals everyones shit and gets ganked by the paladin.
>>46106873
Campaigns that try to be too original. You don't have to embrace every cliche ever but sometimes I don't mind if the princess in need of rescue really is just a princess in need of rescue.
Not literally everything needs to be subversive. [s]../[/s]
>>46107889
Getting an offer from the BBEG to join him. Not as an equal, but as an underling. The former would be a sign of weakness, in which case I might as well just get over with it and kill him. It's guilty pleasure, but I'm a sucker for tor this cliche.
>>46129735
I like the "equals" variation, especially when something comes up that proves that they were completely honest and wouldn't try to double cross you.
>>46130055
To be fair, I like the equals variation as well, but only if the offer is already made early on in the campaign. Then you can start wondering whether to trust it, or whether your conscience allows you to make it. It's especially great if he keeps the offer open within reason, so you have time to think about it and investigate. But a pre-final bossfight offer of this kind comes across as rather pathetic.
>>46130291
Now I'd like to see a run where the BBEG slowly tries to plant seeds like the MCs were always already bad guys and by joining the BBEG they're doing things for the better, when in reality it's more like voluntary brainwash.
Done good, the actual players won't realize how morally wrong they've become either.
The best villains are ones who are almost, but not quite, sympathetic.
If' they're totally unsympathetic then they're also totally flat. They're evil for the sake of evil. What to do about them is entirely prescribed and entirely boring to decide. Evil isn't a good motivation, very few significant men in history did their significant things just for the lulz or to be evil.
If they're too sympathetic, then killing them isn't a desirable or fun goal. And yes, "the villain was the good guy all along" is overdone to all hell.
The best villains are more complex. They're right, but for the wrong reasons. Or wrong for the right reasons. They had a tragic flaw which led them to do evil things, or for whatever reason sincerely felt what they did was for the best - although this conviction should be grounded in more than a simple misunderstanding or ignorance that can be easily fixed. This allows you to sympathize with a villain while still seeing them as, you know, villainous. They're villains that, at the end of the campaign, you agreed needed to be stopped, but you wonder if you might have done the same thing under similar circumstances.
>>46129735
Assuming the hero actually has heroic motivations and isn't simply a mercenary or neutral adventurer, what kind of offer would even be effective for most BBEGs to offer the characters that would even remotely tempt them?preferably something other than lying about being villains
>>46107024
Those aren't really cliches, those are just things that exist. Like, trees aren't a cliche just because you see them all the time.
Captcha: select all pictures with trees
>>46131940
Perhaps the villain offers to spare [The Hero's Village], or even rework their plan to be less objectionable?
>>46115932
You can't keep robbing people if they're dead.
>>46108362
>>46120270
i'm planning on running a campaign where the characters will be committing war crimes from the get-go. their boss is a nice guy who wants to make money and his underlings happy, but doesn't give a single fuck about anyone but him and his men
i won't outright say that the players are committing war crimes, but that's what's going to happen unless the players decide against it
how do you guys think it's gonna go?
>>46120386
Not him, but yes. That or having them enter town, take care of mundane things like purchasing provisions, getting a room at the inn, and things like that, then they're interrupted by shit going down.
>>46116847
what if you went to rescue the princess but you actually rescued the dragon disguised in human form and they were actually okay with this
>>46126587
You just described, like, 80% of all stories in the last 60 years.
>>46107889
Rival character/party with similar-but-different capabilities to the PCs that they end up clashing with on several occasions, but not due to them being evil, just due to them either having different goals, or having the same goals and needing to compete, sometimes even cooperating if it's neccessary.
>>46107655
This, desu. It's way too much at this point. Sometimes moral quandaries are introduced so falsely that the answer seems to be to punch the GM in the face.
>>46136074
You'll have them justifying pushing fifty corpses into a hastily dug trench for mass burial in a month.
>>46107932
That's a weird example because /V/ hates Bioware games for the most part.
It's something I heavily disagree with them on.
BBEG is evil for the sake of evil; no motivation other than just Emperor Badguy.
The oversight BBEG wants to rule everyone by killing everyone so there wouldnt be anyone to rule after and he'll be the king of nothing.
>>46136623
I play most of Biowares stuff, and while none of their recent stuff has sent me into the frothing rage that seems to be prevalent on the internet, it definitely seems to be dropping in quality.
>>46136683
I enjoy their games, loved a great deal of the story of DA:I, although the lack of good sidequests saddened me.
Thing is, people trash them for having SJW shit, but it's really not that prevalent in their games. I loathe that stuff more than anyone, but Bioware get an unfair rap for it to my mind.
>>46136723
For me its just I seem to care less and less with each installment. DA:I had some definite improvements, but I struggled to give a damn about half the cast and even more so the story. Same for Mass Effect 3.
>>46136723
Honestly I still don't get the rage about Anders considering you could accidentally end up having gay sex with Zevran in DAO.
>>46136921
Well yeah. I mean, is the issue really that you can have gay sex? I mean, so what? It's not like it's pushed on you. It's just treated as a normal choice you can make for your character.
It's not like Gone Home, where I can kind of see people's problems with that because it feels a bit like a pro-gay propaganda message.
>>46136893
Yeah. I felt the main quests in DA:I were great, espcially at the start, but it fell away.
Pretty much this >>46106992
>Bounty board
>Quest Board
>Guild hall for quests
If my group has enough down time to be takeing the frivilous "Destroy goblin camp" then I'm doing them a diservice by makeing my world unexciting and wasteing potential.
Wether we like it or not, PC's are extraordinary people bound for great or dark deeds (unless of course, its agreed upon that its a shitty level 1 merc game or somthing).
>>46137016
IDK honestly. Like, the three main critiques I always had about the rage surrounding DA2 were
>Autists somehow got ninjamanced by a dude in a game that highlights flirting and romance options
>One of the writers doesn't like the gameplay much, so she's now the devil even though she wrote the best quests in both games
>How dare this game not bow to my greatness and crush me under the weight of historical forces
idk, I liked DA2, both as a mindless fighting game and as a flawed attempt at making a game with a very anti-great-man-theory view of fantasy RPGs. It was a mediocre game with often poor execution, but some of the intent was at least interesting.
>>46109543
*Reverse tips fedora*
>>46136921
For me it was
A) It kind of came out of nowhere compared to how he was played in Awakening. Sure maybe there were just no dudes there he was into, but it felt a little jarring and
B) When he does show an interest as a guy, your options are to either go with it and romance him or more or less say "Ew gross". There's no "Flattered bro but not into that" (at least not that I remember.
It didn't really enrage me, but DAII making everyone bi was certainly irritating, along with a lot of other things.
>>46137041
I've been running a campaign for about a year and a half now, and I've got a bounty board up for when the players feel down on their luck, money-wise. This always means I have a mini adventure planned, though, never a 'raid a warehouse and stop the bandits'.
>>46119287
Dunno, it seems to me that like half the liches I've read about just wanted more time to research shit, so they became a pile of bone dust and some gems tucked in a corner who knows where so people wouldn't bother them.
>>46116847
Honestly what's wrong with that? For all the crying about it being a cliche I've never fucking done it, let me save my damned princess, goddamit.
>>46116847
Honestly it's not exactly common even in fairy tales that involve saving the princess, there's almost always a twist outside of Disney.
>>46108382
No.
Blacker.
We're talking so black you can't see it.
>>46137610
>>46137674
Samefag
>>46137771
Nope
>>46107655
>>46107741
>people who think you need to handle grey moral worlds by being the bad guy
>people who don't love being a good person in these kinds of worlds, making it work
Wow, it's almost like you missed the fucking point. What, do you think you deal with real life's moral greyness by being shitty and petty? Why would you do the same in a fantasy world?
Sometimes you need to get your hands dirty, but if you go straight to that as a way to deal with the moral grey areas, then you deserve to have a bad time.
>>46138290
You forget, the majority of them are edgy teenagers who spend most of their time on /pol/. Those that grow out of that phase usually become half-way decent. Those that don't... end up voting for Trump.
>>46138290
Isn't the whole part of moral grey areas not that 'there is no good, so might makes right reee', but that it's difficult to be good, because it's hard to recognize what the right thing to do is?
I mean, that's the archetypal ultimate trial of virtue, isn't it? Deciding which of two actions is the better good, or the less bad evil?
>>46138724
It's being in a world where every action has a motivation.
That dude robbing the woman there? He has a reason. Maybe he's starving. Maybe his family needs the money for medicine. Maybe he's in debt and afraid for his life. Maybe he's actually just an asshole who spotted an easy target. You don't know. It could be anything. But that's the point.
What do you do? See, people used to worlds with moral whites and blacks with no reason why just assume he's bad and act accordingly in their murderhobo fashion.
A world isn't grey because "there's no good, so might makes right," a world is grey because there IS good, but instead of it presenting itself with a white flag and good-tasting magic all the time, sometimes it looks like the smelly hobo who is saving that woman from that robber because she reminds him of his long-lost daughter.
Every action, no matter how noble or petty, has some kind of motivation. You just need to find one--or make one.
>>46138724
>>46138793
Sorry, I misquoted you.
A world isn't grey because "it's hard to recognize what the right thing to do it." It's grey because...continued.
>>46138724
No, the ultimate trial of virtue is to do THE right thing. No matter what, and no matter the cost. Even if it means breaking a short-sighted DM's railroad into pieces.
>>46137757
is this a cat? a dog?
>>46138793
I have a sneaking feeling that meets my point halfway, but I'm not going to pursue it.
>>46138830
I said it was the 'archetypical' one, and a third option pick is generally considered the best answer, for the reason you stated. Secret test of character within the test, as it were.
>>46138830
And then you are betrayed by the very virtue you swore to uphold.
>>46138984
Rereading the series of posts to my roomie, I've realized that for the most part yeah, we're saying the same thing. I'm saying that a grey world is a world where everything has a motivation. I believe you're saying that a grey world, because everything has a motivation, makes it sometimes quite difficult to decide what the right thing to do is.
We're getting to the same place, I think you just skipped a step, and I'm trying to fill that space. I think that the thing that makes it all hard is how no matter what you do, you're touching someone's life, shomehow, someway.
>>46139074
It's a world with no stage extras, everyone is a main character, have fun untangling that.
>>46139154
>Nobody knows their lines
>Stage goes on as far as the eye can see and beyond
>Nobody can agree on what the final act is
>>46139154
This is a game, there's a degree is disconnect. But honestly, it's more to the tone of "everyone has the potential to be a main character."
Don't tell me you think that meeting NPCs who are about as exciting as "walk up and press A," is a good way to build a world?
>>46139208
Just saying that it's a lot of work to create something like that.
>>46139182
Who was it that said the world was a stage? Shakespeare?
>>46139253
Yeah, it is. But if, as a GM, you're willing to put that kind of work in, then you're going to make a better experience for your players and yourself.
Making something higher quality always takes more work.
>>46138885
He is the summation of your sins, mortal.
>>46139023
You know, spend enough time on a 'chan and you learn to recognize trolls on first post.
>>46121986
>plow fields
>plow a thousand years of dragon pussy
One of my least favourite is the "You wake up in a dungeon with none of your equipment" cliche
Fuck you, I worked very hard and spent a lot of gold to get what I got.
Favourite has gotta be rescue the princessbut the princess eloped with the kidnapper, or anything that allows me to be heroic as fuck.
Least favorite: You all meet in a Tavern. It's boring, its dull, its just plain not fun.
Favorite: You all meet in prison and must escape through the catacombs. Great way to allow a sense of joy of slowly getting your "Starter" gear, good way to set up some easy and early fights, and lastly theirs the fun of thinking of just WHY your in prison.
Least favorite: No you can't attack that dude for some plot reason.
Favorite: Someone who appears extremely innocent is actually a powerful evil character.
>>46106873
>Alright, you know how you've made medieval fantasy characters?
>WELL I'M ABOUT TO TURN THEIR ENTIRE WORLD ON THEIR HEAD BECAUSE SUDDENLY THEY DISCOVER AN ALIEN SHIP WITH FUTURISTIC TECHNOLOGY!
>You find a MYSTERIOUS silver disk-shaped vehicle in a field, with strange light shooting rods inside called "Laser guns"
I understand that scifi has mixed with fantasy gaming since the very beginning, but this shit is stupid.
Least favorite: generic cultists trying to bring about the apocalypse ( DnD 5e Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat, Princes of the Apocalyse)
Second least favorite: portal to hell was opened on accident (DnD 5e Out of the Abyss)
Third least favorite: corny pseudo-gothic horror setting complete with complicated vampire bbeg (DnD 5e Curse of Strahd)
>>46125552
>The Church is secretly evil.
I actually don't see this happening too much outside of the occasional anime and a couple of videogames.
>>46107889
>the heroes have a chance of just stopping their journey and living a peaceful life, or retiring, or they get to go to Heaven, but they turn it down because they're not done yet
>clerics or paladins who are devout and faithful, but use their faith for the betterment of others
>last stands
>jerks with hearts of gold
>bards, in general
>the party is all good friends and would never betray one another
>dramatic 1 on 1 duels
>>46106873
As for least favorites:
>party rogue is a back stabber
>bandits, with little justification
>enemy is immune to conventional weaponry inexplicably
>bad guys who actually never accomplish anything
>being related to Evil makes you evil, no room for self-determination
>the townsfolk hate you and form a mob
>every fight is a fight to the death
>the hero tries to have sex with everything (and the counterpoint, everything wants to have sex with the hero)
![250[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/h979Pi5.jpg "250[1].jpg")
>>46106873
>The wicked schemer who mindcontrols everyone the PCs care about into doing whatever he wants
>No matter what kind of positive reputation the PCs have; trustworthiness, connections, nothing
Words literally have no description for how much I hate this.
>>46142796
>Being a nice person stops mind control
???
Shipwrecks. All the damn time. No matter the setting, and even in a modern or futuristic one somehow this is the one time any rescue knows JACK about where we ended up!!!
And if it's modern, we ALWAYS don't have access to even basic safety equipment although we got on a ship that has it!
Yet alone the other players making fun of me when I include a life vest and some survival stuff in my inventory (usually stored somewhere when I know I won't be takign yet another trip to yet another deserted island...) now a days as I've had this happen one too many times.
>>46143031
I meant "mind control" in the "he rolled Diplomacy/Bluff" sense, not the literal magic sense.
Are you not familiar with Star Wars?
>>46108917
100000 times. This
>>46106873
Campaign specifically?
I hate generic +1 magic items (and generic 1d4 damage spells for that matter).
In my ideal world, magic would be a thinking man's power - a spell might turn all metal from you, but do nothing to wood, bone, or fist. You might get a bucket that's always full - by drawing water from the nearest unobserved source. You could become whatever you wished, but must convince something of that sort to become like you.
In short, magic shouldn't solve problems - it should make changes. Without a wise and cunning user, those changes could do more harm than good.
>>46106873
Why the fuck does our party even stick together?
>>46140127
Because the Emperor saw you in his dream?
>>46138885
>>46139356
So a cat basically
Low elven birthrates and contrived reasons for elven adventurer skill level.
Best cliche:
>evil cultist awakens an ancient evil to do his bidding
>it kills him
>party all meets in a tavern/cyber-tavern/space-tavern and all sign on for one short, simple job for a bit of scratch
>spend the rest of their lives adventuring together
Enough's enough on this shit. Just say we're old friends and adventuring buddies or something if you're that creatively bankrupt.
