Planescape General and Q&A
Thread starter question: How would you run a "Pirates, Privateers, and Navies of the Rivers Styx and Oceanus" campaign or campaign arc?
Discuss Planescape and the Great Wheel here, whether the original AD&D 2e version, the 3.X version, the 4e version (yes, it exists in 4e, down to the baernaloths, the yugoloths, the Heart of Darkness, Maeldur et Kavurik, Tenebrous, Pelion, and the Last Word all being canon as of Dragon #417), the 5e version, or your own original blend.
I am exceedingly well-lanned on Planescape canon under a holistic blend of 2e, 3.X, and sometimes even 4e lore. If you have any questions at all about the setting's lore, feel free to ask, and I will give you direct quotes and citations from as many primary sources as I can, unlike afroakuma. I will note when something is open to GM interpretation, and explicitly note whenever I give merely my own personal interpretation.
>Basic setting summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape
>Comprehensive Planescape reference index: http://www.rilmani.org/psIndex.txt
>Planewalker.com planar encyclopedia: http://mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/plane
>Canonfire.com planar encyclopedia: http://canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Outer_Planes
>Rilmani.org planar encyclopedia (contains unmarked fanon, so beware): http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Outer_Planes
>List of all the multiverse's gods (contains all gods mentioned in D&D products, but also has plenty of speculation and fanon for mythological deities and for powers with few details on them): http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/list-dead-gods#comment-58090
Old threads with previous questions and comprehensive answers: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/%22comprehensive%20planescape%22/
>>46019442
Do the Styx and Oceanus meet anywhere?
It could be pretty neat for tanar'ri pirates to harass Upper Planes ports.
>>46020595
I have searched through as many sources regarding the Rivers Styx and Oceanus as I could find, and I can safely say that there is no canonical precedent for them ever meeting up.
I imagine that if you did wish for them to meet up regardless, the ideal convergence points would be along the "rim" of the Outlands.
>>45959227
I have fielded this question in previous threads.
Ironically, the core Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set is not particularly vital to playing or running Planescape. If anything, it is rather unpolished and unrefined.
The single most important book for Planescape 2e is the "Planewalker's Handbook." It is the most up-to-date summary of the entire setting, useful for both players and GMs, and everyone who intends on using the setting should read through it as much as possible.
Following up from that, you will want "In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil," "Factol's Manifesto," and "Uncaged: Faces of Sigil" for running the City of Doors.
"Planes of Law," "Planes of Chaos," "Planes of Conflict," and "A Player's Primer to the Outlands" will acquaint you with the Outer Planes.
"Inner Planes," "Guide to the Astral Plane," and "Guide to the Ethereal Plane" should cover the remaining planes.
Those are the primary books you will want. If you wish to understand fiends and the Blood War, you should also download "Faces of Evil: The Fiends" and "Hellbound: The Blood War." Likewise, if gods and other divinities interest you, "On Hallowed Ground" should serve you well.
Since you have already gone through the Planewalker's Handbook, you have acquainted yourself with the basics of the setting, and so everything from that point is supplementary.
>>45959268
>>45959423
Slaadi, contrary to popular belief, are *not* purely random and incomprehensible in their thought processes. Page 71 of Planes of Chaos: The Book of Chaos delves into the slaad mindset, which strongly prizes personal strength and the worth of the individual (in this case, exemplifying Chaotic Neutral in the "individual above all" sense rather than the "random" sense).
It is important to remember that slaadi are the exemplars of Chaotic Neutral, and there is more to that alignment than simply being random and unpredictable.
>>46019442
I'd run it as Baator navy vs Abyss navy
Obviously there would be Yugoloth privateers/mercenaries, of course.
>>46022447
The only Slaadi who fit the mindset of pure randomness are the original Slaadi lords, who have perfectly chaotic forms.
>>46022466
Would Carceri's string of world-sized "pearls" be a suitable analogue for the Caribbean's archipelagos?
I could see the yugoloths' budding colony of the Tower of Incarnate Pain being an important port between the 'loths and the tanar'ri.
>>46022504
The slaad lords and the Spawning Stone received more interesting lore in 3.5, 4e, and 5e than they ever did in previous editions.
Page 96 of 3.0's Manual of the Plane claims that Ssendam and Ygorl not only designed the Spawning Stone, but later manipulated it so that no other slaad could ever rise above them, certainly a rather Chaotic Neutral thing to do. This is *not* an act of pure randomness, but rather, deliberate sabotage.
Page 15 of 4e's The Plane Below alleges that "Slaad legends say that Ygorl came into being when the universe died and now moves backward through time," which gives him a new dimension, and makes one wonder how a conversation with Ygorl would play out.
Page 274 of 5e's Monster Manual does away with the lore of Ssendam and Ygorl having deliberately rigged the Spawning Stone to ensure their supremacy over all slaad, instead positing that Primus was responsible for creating the stone... which then subsequently birthed the slaadi, thereby making Primus the inadvertent creator of the slaadi.
All of these snippets of lore add a good touch of internal and external conflict to the slaadi.
>>46023297
The point about the Slaadi creating the spawning stone is that it was a lawful act, not a chaotic one.
Also, fuck that 5e lore. That's some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard.
>>46024576
5e Monster Manual, page 274:
>The Spawning Stone. Long ago, Primus, overlord of the modrons, created a gigantic, geometrically complex stone imbued with the power of law. He then cast it adrift in Limbo, believing that the stone would bring order to the chaos of that plane and halt the spread of chaos to other planes. As the stone's power grew, it became possible for creatures with ordered minds, such as modrons and githzerai, to create enclaves in Limbo. However, Primus's creation had an unforeseen side effect: the chaotic energy absorbed by the stone spawned the horrors that came to be known as slaadi. Sages refer to Primus's massive creation as the Spawning Stone for this reason.
>The slaadi wiped out every last modron enclave in Limbo. As creatures of utter chaos, slaadi loathe modrons and attack them on sight. Nonetheless, Primus stands by his creation and either doesn't perceive the slaadi as threats or chooses to ignore them.
This seems like a reasonable alternative to Ssendam and Ygorl having created it.
One could have it both ways: Primus had created the Spawning Stone, but Ssendam and Ygorl then tampered with it to restrict the power level and shapes of all other slaadi.
>>46024703
I like the idea that Primus worked together with Ssendam and Ygorl, cause it's so poetically beautiful.
>ssendam and ygorl perform a lawful act because they are selfish
>primus helps them, aiding chaos and therefore performing a chaotic act
That shit's as poetic as Original Sin.
>>46024799
It somewhat mirrors the story of Asmodeus, where a being created to do good ended up doing an incredible amount of evil instead.
Here's a link to all the books. I'm seeding until I go to work tomorrow.
https://kat.cr/planescape-t4703064.html
>>46029214
I got my collection from this torrent at first, but there's a bigger one floating around that has every single TSR book ever printed.
You probably want to get that one instead, because Cerilia and Krynn and Kara-Tur and Athas are all technically part of Planescape.
What's so special about Glasya again? I know that she's important to Asmodeus' plans, but why is that again?
>>46019442
Could you stop posting anime pictures? It's really turning me off Planescape.
>>46032795
a) Touhou isn't an anime.
b) Touhoufag contributes quality content. He post what ever images he wants. If it really bothers you, then just don't click on them.
>>46019442
>If you have any questions at all about the setting's lore, feel free to ask
Very well then. Tell me, what do you know about the Hassitors?
Is it just me or do the upper planes seem kind of boring? What is there for a basher to do in a place of perfect goodness?
>>46037062
>What is there for a basher to do in a place of perfect goodness?
You could go on a heist to steal some kick ass holy artifacts from the angels and then take them for a joy ride in the lower planes.
>>46037062
>What is there for a basher to do in a place of perfect goodness?
Evil shit?
>>46031398
As per page 61 of 3.5's Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, Glasya is Asmodeus's daughter. The same page points out that she is important to Asmodeus's plans, but also that "What exactly Asmodeus’s plans are for his daughter after she cements her hold on the still-changing terrain of Malbolge remain to be seen."
It is also important to note that as per page 55 of the same book, Asmodeus's ancient consort, Bensozia, was slain by Levistus, who is now the imprisoned archduke of Stygia. Page 151 points out that Glasya considers it top-priority to exact revenge upon Levistus for her mother's death.
It is thus reasonable to infer that Asmodeus has some sort of stake in the plotting of Glasya against his dead wife's murderer, Levistus.
>>46035447
A single paragraph in page 4 of Planes of Law: Acheron contains all the canonical information on the hassitor that has ever been published.
>Some armies have found a way to create magical, mobile fortifications for their constant wars; necessary, since immobile structures are crushed flat whenever the cubes collide. These mobile fortresses are called hassitorium, after the immeasurably ancient race that first created them, the hassitor, a race known only through its works and monuments.
>The hassitor citadels are products of ancient necromancy combined with bizarre architecture and stonemasonry: Hordes of slaves are built into the walls of the hassitorium. The iron walls of the hassitorium are half-living, half-metal, and constantly in pain; the slaves within them must drag the iron ramparts along on rough iron skids. Slaves that fail to keep up the grueling pace of their masters may stumble and fall, but even as they are smeared into a rusty paste, they serve to smooth the progress of the citadel onward over the echoing battlefields.
>Eight of these citadels are known to exist on the first layer of Acheron, but the wreckage of many more has been found in the scrapheap of Thuldanin, the second layer.
>>46040257
In short, we know that the hassitor are a progenitor species of Acheron (much like the aphanacts for Mechanus, the kamerel for the Outlands, the ancient Baatorians for Baator, the baernaloths for the Gray Waste, and the obyriths for the Abyss), that they were very talented with both necromancy and architecture, and that their treatment of slaves was incredibly evil. That is all.
>>46037062
>>46038338
>>46039040
The best information you will find for actual adventures in the Upper Planes (yes, even for good-aligned adventurers... if anything, *especially* for good-aligned adventurers) in Planes of Law, Planes of Conflict, and Planes of Chaos.
Those three books do a superb job at filling the Upper Planes with plot hooks, conflicts, and dangers for good-aligned characters *without* making those planes a dire place to live in for the natives.
>>46040461
To expound on my point, the writers for the Planes of Law/Conflict/Chaos books presented the Upper Planes as paradises, but as *challenging* paradises.
Arcadia might be LG/LN, but there is great conflict as the well-meaning Harmonium slowly drags it down to Mechanus through evil acts.
Mount Celestia is a place of trials and tribulations that tests the integrity mettle of all who dare to ascend, for virtue untested is merely innocence. No pain, no gain.
Bytopia is a plane of industry and capitalism. People work hard to make a living, and they are quite enthusiastic about it. They brave the wild and untamed layer of Shurrock for raw materials and other riches, and the treks up and down its monster-harassed spires are not for the weak of heart.
Elysium is the plane of peaceful rest, but its layer of Belierin is the foremost prison of the Upper Planes; it is a dangerous swamp where some of the mightiest of beasts and evils lie gaoled, testing the wards around them and bleeding out their influence. The layer of Thalasia is likewise under invasion from the sahuagin of the Thalastrom.
The Beastlands are a feral, untamed place. Each layer exalts the virtues of nature, and a body who expects friendly animals everywhere is in for a nasty surprise when they start encountering the fierce dinosaurs of the Forbidden Plateau or the mystically venomous aeserpents of Karasuthra.
Arborea is a place of passions and great challenges that pump adrenaline into a cutter's veins. Great beasts roam everywhere, and the weather tests the fortitude of all who travel the wilds. The parties here are wild, raucous, and dangerous (especially those of the bacchae). The harsh desert layer of Pelion/Mithardir is a mega-dungeon of titanic ruins from a lost age.
Little needs to be said about Ysgard. It is the plane of glorious battle and the spirits of the valiant. The armies of the gods go against the giants; the deep dwarves fight the dark elves. Resurrection is but a battle away.
>>46040838
For some Upper Planes, like Arcadia and Elysium, the primary conflicts that visiting adventurers can involve themselves in revolve around "unnatural" or external influences upon the plane.
Example #1: Arcadia is supposed to be an idyllic utopia of community and the common good, but the external faction of the Harmonium, while sincerely well-meaning, is too extremist in its methods and drags the plane down bit by bit towards Mechanus.
Example #2: Elysium's third layer of Belierin was never meant to be a prison of some of the planes' most terrible beings, but it was forced to become such a gaol due to dire circumstances.
Example #3: Elysium's fourth layer of Thalasia was never meant to be invaded by sahuagin operating a gigantic magical maelstrom and typhoon, yet the sahuagin managed to do so anyway.
These are all problems that arise not due to the nature of the plane itself, but due to external factors. By stepping in to correct these issues, a party of adventurers can restore the natural order and make these Upper Planes more heavenly and friendly, as they should be.
For other Upper Planes, the conflict and adventure potential is "designed" or "programmed" into the plane itself. Remember that the petitioners of the Outer Planes (the mortals that worshiped no god in life, and therefore manifest as direct petitioners of one of the Outer Planes) are *not* supposed to lounge around in an eternal afterlife. They are supposed to engage in a spiritual journey that cultivates their soul towards the essence of their Outer Plane, culminating in either merging with the fabric of the plane or rising up the ranks of that plane's outsider type.
A spiritual journey will be fruitless and do nothing to hone and improve a soul if there are no challenges and adversity along the way. That is why even the Upper Planes throw challenges in the way of its petitioners, like the monsters and harsh weather in Bytopia and Arborea, or the glorious battles and giants in Ysgard.
>>46019442
>>46020595
>>46022330
>Oceanus
What is it?
>>46045792
The River Oceanus is a river that flows through the upper (good-aligned) planes.
>>46045792
>>46048130
To expound on this, the River Oceanus is the celestial counterpart of the fiendish River Styx. Page 12 of the 2e Planewalker's Handbook contains the most concise writeup on it:
>The magical River Oceanus runs through a few of the Upper Planes. Its crystal waters are smooth and calm, as well as unfathomably deep. Sailing down the river is a straightforward way of traveling through and across Elysium, the Beastlands, and Arborea.
>What's hard for some to understand is that the river's path is neither straight nor regular. It dips in and out of the planes it passes through without warning. There's no use trying to understand it, though; most find that the river's flow takes them just where they want to go without really understanding how.
>Plenty of merchants use the river to transport trade goods, and many others use it for regular travels, so it's not difficult to hire a boatman to take a traveler along its course. Some folks say that certain creatures that live in the river sing a mystical song. If the music doesn't drive a sod barmy, it'll give her some secret of the multiverse.
The lattermost tidbit here is a reference to delphons from the Planes of Conflict Monstrous Supplement:
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/delphon.php
In any event, it is important to note that the Oceanus runs only through a specific set of planar layers as per page 6 of Planes of Conflict: Liber Benevolentiae:
>The River Oceanus winds its leisurely transplanar way through all four layers of Elysium and the first layer of the Beastlands before rolling on to Arborea, where it disappears into that plane's second later.
Its headwaters are in Elysium's fourth layer of Oceanus and its endpoint is Arborea's second layer of Ossa/Aquallor.
In this sense, the River Oceanus is a far lesser pathway than the Styx, which covers all of the Lower Planes.
For a more comprehensive view of the Oceanus, consult page page 6 of Planes of Conflict: Liber Benevolentiae.
I'm taking my party to Belierin for their next adventure. What are some neat visuals/encounters I could put in their way?
>>46050177
Which plane is that?
>>46050531
Belierin is one of the layers of Elysium. It's a swamp, and used as a prison for all sorts of evil creatures. Not even other good creatures are supposed to hang around there, and the guardinals keep a close and constant watch over the place - as well as devoting a lot of time and effort to maintaining the wards and barriers that protect the place. It's a fairly interesting environment, and a swamp that's actually good and heavenly would be a really interesting environment, in my opinion.
>>46050555
What was the last bar your players/dm went to in Sigil?
>>46050177
As per pages 61-63 of Planes of Conflict: Liber Benevolentiae, Belierin's most famous prisoner is the Hydra of Legend, whose influence spans the layer; I imagine there would be many hydras and hydra-like creatures roaming the layer as dangerous beasts.
Belierin is also the birthplace of the quesar, sunlight-channeling celestial robots. They have a shaky relationship with actual celestials (especially their aasimon creators, whom they rebelled against) as per the Warriors of Heaven web enhancement.
The party could resolve a dispute involving the quesars. Perhaps the dispute involves the fact that there are half-formed quesars lying in the muck of Belierin, useless to anyone but an actual celestial who might energize and bring the nascent quesars to life; some celestials could be eager to do exactly that to raise up an army of the heavens, but other celestials might be leery towards another potential rebellion.
An interesting locale might be a major battlefield of the quesar-aasimon war.
Page 61 of Planes of Conflict: Liber Malevolentiae implies that Belierin is off-limits to most people, as "A cutter also has to explain just what she thinks she's doing here to the guards as well. (This all sounds a lot simpler than it is.)" A party with a shoddy explanation might run afoul of the guardinals of the Rubicon, prompting a rare combat with celestials.
According to page 90 of On Hallowed Ground, Belierin is home to the Egyptian goddess Nut's divine realm of Refuge of Night. In fact, she is the *only* deity with a divine realm in Belierin. There could perhaps be a growing conflict between Nut and the guardinals of the Rubicon, who might believe the sky-goddess to be a risk to the Upper Planes' highest-security prison.
>>46051166
While not quite a "bar," my party did visit the Temple of Bast in Sigil, which, in my game, is home to a cat maid cafe.
Not only are there a variety of catboy and catgirl maids attending to tables (catfolk, humanoid displacer beasts, humanoid bezekiras, and more), but there are many domestic cats and great cats available for petting too, many of which are half-breeds (half-dragons, half-celestials, half-fiends, half-fey, and the like).
