I've seen lots of Sci-Fi settings (mainly Star Wars, though) where aliens have some kind of weird language but as long as you learn it communication is not only possible but also easy and it kind of annoys me. Just in our species thee are languages that sound completely alien to foreigners, like vietnamese, icelandic or hungaria.
Sometimes the aliens speak with weird gutural sounds, which is a bit better but not really that much.
Just in our own planet there's tons of examples of animals that comunicate with sounds that we just can't perceive at all, ignoring the animals that communicate via movement, smell and so on.
Is there any kind of sci-fi setting with aliens that humans know are sentient but just can't communicate with no matter what because of how different they are? Or at least a setting where you need a certain equipment (not a translator) to be able to perceive what other creatures say?
>>46010638
seems like any species sufficiently advanced to build starships should also be able to make their computers talk to someone else's
>>46010638
I really don't think you can invent a spaceship if you can't read or write. Maybe if you had some insanely intelligent race which had perfect memory and reasoning, especially when it came to scientific fields, and which lived independently and thus not needing anyone else, you could feasilby think of a being which could make a spaceship without having the need for any language. But at this point, the creature would be so intelligent that it could invent one or learn another if someone actually wanted to communicate with it.
>>46010638
>hungaria
>>46011372
But that's besides the point. If a certain used a colour that humans can't see to write, it'd look as if there's nothing written to us, so we would need special sensor just to know that there's something written there. Or if they "talk" at ultra-high frequency, we wouldn't hear it.
That's what I'm talking about
>>46011401
*hungarian
>>46010638
>but just can't communicate with no matter what because of how different they are?
If they use an exchange of symbols to communicate (i.e. they communicate), then we'd work it out eventually. Doesn't matter if it's pictures, light flashes, or chemical secretions. If there's a pattern, our best people would break it and learn to send messages back, even if it takes a big expensive machine to do it.
>>46011506
>If a certain used a colour that humans can't see to write, it'd look as if there's nothing written to us, so we would need special sensor just to know that there's something written there.
To be fair, we've already got sensors for shit like that. Pretty sure if an alien gave us anything, even if it was just a note that said 'ur a faget', we'd still put it under every sensor we have, regardless of whether or not it was written in invisible ink.
>Or if they "talk" at ultra-high frequency, we wouldn't hear it.
They'd still need to be able to record data. Doesn't matter if their "speech" is based on smells, they'd still need some way to build on the knowledge of their forebears, so written word of some kind would be necessary.
>>46011556
>even if it takes a big expensive machine to do it
And I'm perfectly okay with that. That's why I'm asking for games/settings with that concept in them.
You want to read Embassytown, by China Mieville
The aliens in Embassytown are a species called the Arieke, and are sort of a cross between crabs and preying mantises, I guess. They have two mouths, and they use them both at once to make seperate sounds, which is the basis for their language.
The catch is that their language has a quality to it that makes it impossible to imitate without having some kind of similarly arranged set-up. The human explorers who contacted them discovered that simply playing two audio tracks of the distinct sounds had no effect. Their language, which is just called "Language" requires sentient thought behind it.
The work around that humans figured was breeding Ambassadors, which are twinned humans raised as a single individual, each of whom speak one half of the language to express unified thoughts. It's the only way to successfully communicate.
The even trickier part is that the language is absolutely concrete: not only is abstraction impossible, but so is falsehood. The Arieke can't even speak lies successfully, and listening to Ambassadors lie is like a sporting event for them. They go wild.
This lack of abstraction means that the only way they can use similes or metaphors is to actually publicly enact the scenario they have in mind, and then make specific reference to it. The main character of the book is actually the subject of a metaphor when she's a young child, as "the girl who ate what was given her". It's even clear how the Arieke use the metaphor, only that it's useful to them somehow.
>>46010638
>Is there any kind of sci-fi setting with aliens that humans know are sentient but just can't communicate with no matter what because of how different they are? Or at least a setting where you need a certain equipment (not a translator) to be able to perceive what other creatures say?
How would this improve a setting or make the players have more fun
Strugatsky wrote a novel Space Mowgli, that has a alien race so comprehensive to us that the human baby raised by them was classified as an alien civilization in itself.
>>46012110
>How would this improve a setting or make the players have more fun
My guess is so that the PCs can fight and kill aliens without eventually befriending them or devolving into shenanigans where the monsters guilt-trip the PCs for killing them.
>>46010638
>as long as you learn it communication is not only possible but also easy
Yeah, that's kind of how it works. Communication is pretty easy if you both speak the same language.
>>46013405
I may learn to read alien runes but find it impossible to reproduce because it's not suposed to be made with human hands.
>>46013405
The idea is that humans can't do it unassisted. I dunno, maybe it involves weird vocalizations or tones, that we can't naturally reproduce or understand. Or the patterns might be really hard for an human to think about.
>>46011372
>invent a spaceship
But aliens could grow one.
>>46011856
That's kind of a cool premise, but makes no logical sense.
>>46015317
Oh, just sensory/vocal incompatibility? That's fairly common. I've even seen, not just fictional flavor, but *fully developed conlangs* that humans cannot speak. Take Rikchik, which is a sign language for a species with 49 tentacles, 7 of which are used for communication: http://dedalvs.conlang.org/smileys/2012.html
And I'm working on one for a civilization of robots, which is still auditory but doesn't owe anything to human phonemes.
>>46018515
Hell, I even saw some fucking fan community building one based on some Homestuck headcanons for troll biology, which we can't speak because we can pronounce one phoneme at a time and have to alternate breathing out with breathing in.
>>46010638
Sector General.
The species that is closest to human are actually giant furry catapillar like beings, and talk with both sounds and moving their hairs in certain ways.
There's ones that communicate in color, with low frequencies, etc etc. Is great.
There are translators, but they strip out tone completely
>>46010638
The Chanur novels by CJ Cherry has several examples.
First up you have the Tc'a, who significantly more advanced than most other species in the series. Their brains have several parts and they speak in what is best described as a series of matrices of intertwined meaning. In the series, the best translator would typically output something much like the following when translating the Tc'a language:
stsho.......| kif............| knnn........| (*)............| hani........| mahe.......... | tc'a
station.....| ship.........| ship.........| ship.........| ship.........| ship.............| self
trade.......| kill............| see..........| here........| run..........| watch...........| know
fear.........| want.........| see..........| hani........| escape....| help..............| knn
violation..| violation...| violation...| violation..| violation..| violation.......| self
Compact.| Compact..| Compact.| Compact.| Compact.| Compact......| Compact
help.........| help.........| help.........| help........| help.........| help..............| help
Then you have the Knnn who are the most technologically advanced species in the series. The T'ca barely understand them and they are utterly incomprehensible by the other spieces and have thus been deemed dangerous. The Knnn are known to "sing" into their radios r when traveling in space similar to how whales communicate with each othe. This is useful for the other species as most species steer clear of Knnn space, and for good reason. They trade by taking whatever they want and leaving whatever they deem sufficient as payment behind; it is an improvement over their prior habit of just taking trader ships apart. They also have a habit of abducting ships and, if the aforementioned ship is lucky, dumping them off in a random part of space.
>>46013405
Okay, look. How many tongues do you have? Is your mouth six feet wide? No? Then give it up, you're never going to get it right.
>>46012110
limitations provoke creativity
>>46011856
>>46018347
yep
there's no reason that playing the sounds from one speaker, let alone two, shouldn't work, as long as they're the correct sounds
also having to go to those lengths to use a metaphor is counterproductive to having an effective language
also also that's not how lying works, maybe that's how these aliens' brains work but there's nothing linguistic that prevents a user of a language from making a fact-style statement they know to not be true
>>46025255
>limitations provoke creativity
You gotta balance that shit against playability though; you're not an author writing a novel, you're a GM running a game.
>>46010638
Eclipse Phase, the Factors are the only known aliens race, and they require computers to communicate anything to a human.
