A knight saves the princess from a dragon. A mysterious warrior, who lost his memory. An evil vizier, plotting behind good king's back.
You can stop rolling your eyes. We all know that those are the most boring, overused cliches, literally bread and butter of fantasy. Or... Are they? Those cliches actually came to be so long ago, that no one takes them seriously anymore. Every time you see a twist on them - a princess kidnaps a dragon, both vizier and king are actually secretly shitty, and it's been a long fucking time since I ever saw any villainous necromancers, rising undead armies to do their bidding. Or any dark overlord whatsoever, in fact. Every time I see a hint of this stuff, I expect a twist - and I get one, every fucking time, most times those twists are easily predictable.
Have cliches been forgotten for so long, they have stopped being cliches, /tg/? What's your experience with this?
Don't know anyone else but I have only saved a princess from a dragon once, and it was in a joke campaign.
Shit man I just want some chivalry. Let me slay some dragons, rescue some maidens and restore the rightful king to the throne.
Clichés are tools used to tell a story. They etablish the roles and relationships of each character. They alow you to enter the story without reading pages upon pages of background and motivations.
Of course they can become overused. Society evolves and so do most of the stories. At some point you see only the cliché, and not the setting it's based upon (when I say vizir, you probably think jaffar and not generic counsellor of kings in a mid-eastern setting, redefining the trope).
Stories of today use common tropes that will probably be considered awfully boring in the future.
Also, concerning forgotten clichés, you can reuse some mythology and your players will propably find it very original as long as there hasn't been a movie about it recently. Same for fairy tales. Russian ones are pretty distinct and tend to make interesting adventures. Look up the mourning vigil for the witch, for example.
On my recent experience, I used some old folktales' boogeymen as opponents for a horror game, shit was so cash.
>>46008476
Bringing up some good points. What is "mourning vigil for the witch", though? I've never heard of it, and I'm a russian.
>>46007869
At a certain point, cliche fades into the background. It's not important whether other people have used an evil overlord. What matters is that mine has a definite history and connection with the audience/players sufficient to be a particular entity rather than a general type. Short-term thinking often has people running for the "unique" gimmick (which has been used many times before) in the hopes that they won't have to build things up slowly. But all that does is raise expectations until the people you're trying to impress hit burnout and Just Stop Caring.
>>46007869
This thread is a trope.
>>46007869
No sorry. I just prefer saving dragons over princesses.
Everyone needs at least a little magical realm
>>46008888
This. The quads back it up.
Cliches and tropes can be played completely straight. What's most important is telling an actual story.
Reminder the first half of Shrek is a knight saving a princess from a dragon.
>>46009515
>Shrek is a knight saving a princess from a dragon.
Shrek was an Ogre, not an Knight. The entirety of Shrek was basically about parodying on your standard fairly tale tropes.
>>46009724
he looked like a knight for a while.
he acted like a knight for a while, though not a very good one
he almost was a knight for a while.
and saving a princess, even if it's not by a knight, is a trope that it still played straight
>>46009724
The entire point of that chain of events was the Princess thought he was a knight. This is because he was dressed like one and for the most part acted like one, if a little unconventional. At the end of day, he still barged into the castle, neutralized a dragon, and rescued the princess.
It was certainly a parody. But it was a parody of a knight's character, not the knight's actions.
>>46008765
Daughter of rich merchant dies, merchant pays some poor peasant boy stay all night at the church, reciting prayers next to her coffin.
Problem is, daughter was a witch, so she comes back to life every night and try to find the peasant to eat/kill him (depending on versions). She invokes demons and bad spirits to help her. The demons can't manage to find him since he's shielded by his recitation.
At the end of the mourning period, depending on the versions, she is banished/she finally dies but goes to heaven/she finds him at the last minute and kills him... No waifu ending that I'm aware of.
I have a big book with afanassie's tales, great read, and it should be available in most languages.
>>46007869
>Have cliches been forgotten for so long, they have stopped being cliches, /tg/?
Sure some of them have. Like you're saying with the classic, Save Princess from Dragon and maybe win her hand or the Restore the Rightful King to his throne, those have become fresh again in my mind that I'd be willing to make a story for them or play in a game with that as the story.
>What's your experience with this?
I mostly DM so when I'm building something I do devote a little bit of time to thinking, is this too cliche that it is boring? But really something being cliche is only bad if it's taken to the extreme you're describing OP where the story becomes so predictable and known that it amounts to more of a flowchart to follow than a living breathing story that keeps you guessing.
So I'm fine with having a cliche, as long as its not too predictable, and on the other side of things I'm fine with trying to subvert a cliche, as long as that is also not too predictable.
>>46010490
Oh, you mean "Viy" by Nikolai Gogol? That's not a fairy tale, but okay.
>>46010677
I'm prety sure Gogol's is an adaption.
>>46010490
I read a version of that where he doesn't die, but also the version you describe, and also viy.
>>46010793
Nope, he made it all up. And there's nothing wrong with that, you just need to be aware that Gogol's 'Viy' isn't folklore but literary fiction.
>>46007869
the knight and princess motive is deeply connected to Christianity and a lesser degree other Abrahamic religions. The dragon = satan/heresy/heathens being slain by a brave knight, a warrior of god representing all of society's expecations of a good christian, and frees the princess, who can be a representation of the unenlightened who are oppressed by false gods/the devil. Thus the classic fairy tale motif was a clear allegory grounded then contemporary understandings.
The other motives you mention probably also had a significance at some point. It's just that over time they have become popular as motives and carried over to new stories where the context and deeper meaning was lost or ignored, naturally leading to experiments with style and contents, the kind of twists you mention.
If you want to play the klichés straight, I suggest going back to the source. The dragon isn't a D&D dragon, an animal/intelligent creature existing detached from humanity. It is a creation of pure evil, a dark god in 'mortal' form sent to tyrannize the god-fearing population. The princess isn't important because she's a human being needing saving, she is a symbol of the people's piety, being the nominal head of the good God's church in her country. The knight isn't just some guy who went out to score treasure, he is a paladin, a champion of the god come to vanquish evil in the name of the LORD!
>>46007869
A cliche is a trope that is used without understanding the context behind the trope in the first place.
>>46007869
I use cliches in my writings all the time and I dont give a fuck.
It all depends on how you use them.
>Implying fighting an evil necromancer and his undead goons isn't the tippity-top of ADVENTUREing
Fuck all this "necromancer means to do good" bullshit.
