So how long till Bretonnia is kill?
How much will the world improve by having retarded dracoths instead of Grail Knights?
Which kit will go for embarrassing amounts of money, à la Tomb Guard?
And most importantly, do you consider canon the End Times lore around the Brets being Lileath's toys?
>1d4chan
1d4chan.org/wiki/The_End_Times (Compilation of all the End Times changes)
1d4chan.org/wiki/Category:Warhammer_Fantasy (All pages marked WF on the /tg/ wiki)
>Warhammer Wikis
whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page (Warhammer Fantasy wiki)
warhammerfb.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_Wiki (Warhammer Fantasy wiki)
warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_Online_Wiki (Warhammer Online wiki with lots of background articles too. Also AoR is not ded: /vg/ for details.)
>Resources(Armybooks, Supplements, Fluff, Crunch)
pastebin.com/8rnyAa1S
www.pastebin.com/0e6RuQux
>Endhammer
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Endhammer
>9th Age
http://www.the-ninth-age.com
>Total War: Warhammer
store.steampowered.com/app/364360/
>End Times: Vermintide
store.steampowered.com/app/235540/
>Mordheim: City of the Damned
store.steampowered.com/app/276810/
>Bloodbowl 2
store.steampowered.com/app/236690/
>Third party Miniature manufactures
http://pastebin.com/CvGaNyrk
r8 my WFRP 2e career
>>45988629
My money is on the Questing Knights, or the Grail Reliquae, although the latter is rather shit ruleswise, so unlike TG people might not be lusting after it.
The trebuchet is very important for any Bret army, but there are stand ins aplenty.
What's your favourite unit, and your favourite colour scheme for it?
Mine's these guys. Lots of other contenders but the purple n' white really brings something out in empire units.
>>45988878
TG with verdigris. Pic related might be a bit overdone though.
>>45984043
it's not just GW, it's also other titans, like Blizzard and others.
democracy is bad in bussiness. can't let rabble decide stuff.
>>45986118
what respect I might have had for WotC, i lost
the fact I don't like GW these days notwithstanding, I really agree with "ignore vocal minority" policy. it's just they losing their dignity. can't behave like some indie shit if you are a proper company.
>>45989147
Hot damn. I can appreciate it as an art piece for sure, but a whole army painted like that without any metal would be odd to look at.
>>45989771
Anyone know what their current put/call ratio is? I can't find it.
>>45989772
Yep. I really like it but I'm thinking of doing mine with perhaps 40-50% less verdigris. The black bandages along with the white bones and the green look baller though.
>>45988721
Seems weird for such a prestigious career to be a Basic one.
Anyone have the Storm of Magic PDF? Also do the normal blast and pie plate template work for it or would I need special ones?
>>45988629
>And most importantly, do you consider canon the End Times lore around the Brets being Lileath's toys?
Nobody in these threads considers that canon (or at least they deeply regret that their autism forces them to accept GW's bullshit as their own canon). I much prefer the vagueness of earlier editions about what the Lady is and why she does what she does.
>>45990271
It's not a great job - you have to sit in a tower in the woods for months at a time staring at the horizon.
Also, like Toll Keeper, you're not likely to be able to fulfill the duties of the career during the campaign. So it's probably better as a Basic career you've just left before you begin adventuring.
>>45988721
You spelled 'elitist' wrong.
>>45990427
That's true. I rate 7/10, workable but nothing special, would allow at the table.
>>45990427
Point made, yeah.
Speaking of which, I made a Dwarf Ranger basic career myself, recently.
http://pastebin.com/YskAbz9M
>>45990638
>Dwarf Ranger
>basic
Rangers are better than the average dwarf warrior, typically veterans.
>>45990472
>You spelled 'elitist' wrong.
Whoops. Thanks.
I've also just remembered that I need to spell out that it's a basic career and make a note of which career it can be switched out for.
>>45990638
Nice. I was thinking the Scout career would work for that but actually it's distinct enough (Why doesn't the Scout have Outdoor Survival or Rover?).
Maybe there are a few too many trappings though.
>>45990765
>Maybe there are a few too many trappings though.
Point. I figure maybe I could ditch the rations and the throwing axes. To be fair to the Scout, most of its entries have those abilities.
>>45990752
Yeah, but not all the basic careers are jobbers. Roadwardens come to mind.
>>45988629
>How much will the world improve by having retarded dracoths instead of Grail Knights?
Grail Knights and Dracoth Riders have nothing to do with each other and hardly share the same concept. This is Warhammer Fantasy, we have grail knights, among other cavalry. Age of Sigmar has Dracoth riders, among other cavalry. 2 different settings, 2 different things.
>And most importantly, do you consider canon the End Times lore around the Brets being Lileath's toys?
even before 8th edition lore it was hinted that the elves had something to do with the Lady. I am much more comfortable with the idea that the Brets were duped by a Elf goddess rather than a wood Elf prophetess. Besides, were they really tricked? I mean she still provided those blessings, and she still shaped them into much more than what they would have become without her. Many of the gods had various aspects, so Lileath adopting 3 different ones and using one to cater to humans isn't all that deceitful. Without lileath they would be, at best, Conquered by the Empire, or at worst, overrun by chaos/tombkings/greenskins/vampires/beastmen
>>45991196
at worst, overrun by tombkings
TK just want their kingdom restored to its ancient beauty and glory. They command their skeleton servants to reap the fields, keep the water channels in good condition, and repair the damaged buildings.
There are many living humans in Numas, serving willingly the local king, whom they regard as their god. The desert nomads ride with the undead legions to battle. As long as the other races submit to Settra, they need not perish.
I see no reason why life should be objectively worse for a peasant under the rule of the Tomb Kings.
It's Nagash who wants a dead world.
Based on the recent miniatures they've produced outside of the boardgames I'm actually happy the real armies are going to be free from taint.
How the hell does the Empire not only manage to survive all the threats leveled against it, but Thrive and be the major power in the old world? I get that pike and shot level technology mixed with some magic here and there and the occasionally griffon can beat unorganized forces like small orc or beast man war bands, but what about everything else? What kind of tactics does the empire even have against:
>terrifying murder elves with much faster reflexes
>10 foot tall mongolian cave men that can smash aside ranks at a time
>massive swarms of technologically advanced ratmen
> armies of superhuman warriors clad in nigh impenetrable armor backed by hordes of savage men and giant beasts
>legion upon legion of fearless and tireless skeletal warriors backed either by every nightmarish creature of the night you can imagine, or giant living statues and massed chariots.
>fucking lizardmen
this isn't humanity fuck no, this is me legitimately trying to figure out how the hell the empire can fight against many of the other races, and win.
>>45992188
Well for one Ratmen don't really exist
>>45992188
Guns, lots of wizards, and occasionally (read:frequently) the high elves and/or dwarves show up to save their ass
>>45989147
Now im depressed, why didn't i think of an idea as cool as this before GW squatted the tomb kings?
It's too late to get the kits, an awesome hobby idea will now forever be out of my reach.
So, /whfb/, what are you currently working on?
>>45991514
I think they dig wells more than they do create / maintain channels, since a lot of the immediately accessible Nehekharan water sources were irrevocably tainted by Nagash near the end.
As for quality of life… maybe? Depending on the which sources of canon you're using and which summaries of an average medieval peasant's living conditions you put your faith in the quality of life ranges anywhere from "If you don't die in the crib you're not that bad off, if facing non-existent social hierarchy movement" to "Have fun swimming in shit". Likewise Tomb King lore for their citizens' quality of life ranges everywhere from "You're a noble, priest, artisan / soldier, or a worthless slave" to "Not too dissimilar from that of an average Ancient Egyptian, but with all the benefits of their divine blessings and dissonant technology and whatnot".
So it's a bit hard to say one way or the other. "Shit-swimming peasant" v "Agrarian society w/ frequent bathing and a semi-formal education" obviously swings heavily in the Tomb Kings' favor, but likewise "Agrarian society w/ slightly less frequent bathing packed to the brim with holidays and festivities" v "Gruel? You had a bowl yesterday! Ten lashes, then back to work!", meanwhile, swings the opposite direction.
>>45992188
>They outnumber them ten to one
>Cannons and guns
>A pike formation can easily hold off any number of unequipped slaves. Things other than just rats are few and far between lore wise. a warlord has to spend quite a bit to get a rat ogre, 200 slaves and clawful of warp tokens was a price mentioned in one of the army books iirc. They also are relatively passive towards the empire until the end times. When they did go on the full offensive they basically DID win.
>4+ is not night impenetrable. Gold wizards. Organized military also beats hordes.
>Once the warrior priest smacks the vampire in charge everyone's good to go.
>who cares they stay in their jungle
>>45992419
Sculpting chaos warriors for sort-of-mordheim
>>45992188
they on their enemy being too dumb to assassinate their captains, which would severely cripple whatever coordination and tactics they were planning to use. That, and every battle seems to be won by last minute heroics that see an army that still outnumbers them turn and flee.
Every single empire battle
>cannons and guns to start off, enemy doesn't give a fuck and charges right through
>enemy smashes into empire battle line, imperials hold
>oh no we are getting tired and the enemy outnumbers us 10-1 and doesn't feel pain or fatigue
>losing badly, about the collapse
>knights/Karl franz/Warrior priest shows up, leads glorious charge
>men suddenly inspired
>Enemy comander slain by a hero
>the entire enemy army quits the field
>empire army decimated but right back at full strength the next time another conflict happens
>>45992188
Ogres are not hugely common that far West, you might as well ask how people ever defeated Elephants. And they die like anything else if shot by a gunline/stabbed a dozen times by ranked infantry.
Its also why halberds are more common than in the real HRE, they are better than pikes against tough/heavily armoured enemies.
Normal skeletons are pretty damn weak and large invasions are rare, TK and lizardmen only invade the Empire to recover stolen stuff, they have no interest in trying to conquer it.
>>45988629
>do you consider canon the End Times lore around the Brets being Lileath's toys?
The thing about the elves and the brets was strongly implied even before the end times, so in some way or another I feel it should stay.
But honestly I like to believe a "true" lady formed out as a proper divinity with the beliefs of humans separately from the elven being that kickstarted the religion of the brets from the shadows.
>>45992819
Or Lileath ends up changing due to the Bretonnian's beliefs. An 'if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.' type scenario.
>>45992480
Is that supposed to be a Skaven female?
The non-canonical porn annoys me.
>>45993120
That could work too, in fact it's not difficult to imagine that since the humans are different from the elves, and the lady too is not exactly seen like lileath, the resultant warp vortex representing the formation of the lady goddess would be slightly different than the vortex making lileath.
All sorts of identity crisis could spawn, from double conflicting identities, multiple aspects depending on the observer to a goddess that is growing an aspect so much it is potentially dividing into different beings.
>>45993385
Technically it's possible for skaven females to not become fat bloated and stupid masses of tits and vaginas since it is not exactly a natural development.
It is a social construct born from the rape culture and misogynist enslavement enforced by the patriarchy.
>>45992480
I demand sauce
>>45993460
It's like Manann and Mathlann. Two overlapping circles in a venn diagram where the whole thing is a single warp entity.
>>45993385
Suck-lick my dick-dick, sperg-thing.
>>45988629
Horses were boring I'm glad to be rid of them
>>45988878
Bögenhafen is best hafen
>>45992419
A bretonnian army with 40 knights, 60 dirty peasants and characters. Just begun with painting and I massively suck at free hand painting, but it' great fun. My only real plan is not to have to identic heraldries for my knights. A lot of work, but at the moment it's close to meditation for me.
Pic related, my very first knight.
>>45992188
Faith, steel and black powder.
In that order.
>>45994143
Looking pretty good Anon.
And nothing beats the visual spectacle of a proper Bretonnian army on the field with all the knights in their heraldry.
You can even play around with stuff like guys having similar but different heraldry for different branches of the family.
>>45994308
That image shows it funnily enough, guy with the horn has similar but different heraldry to the unit leader and the standard bearer has his own but carries the champions banner.
>>45994308
Thanks!
I thought about that, too. My general should have the same heraldry as this one which I propably will use as ASB, since my other brets are models from the 90s. I chose that heraldry because it's actually my family's own coat of arms. I think that's one of the perks of being europoor.
A lot of the rest will have heraldry from the Codex Manesse (as far as possible), that way it will even have a nice historical touch.
To be honest, the look of colourful Bretonnian armies was what fascinated me about Warhammer in the first place, but I never really dared to try. Better late than never.
>>45994603
If you want to be extra 'authentic' the ASB guy should have something added to his arms to indicate he is either the son of or some other close relation to the army general. But its not like most people would notice.
Good idea on the Codex, I will have to look it up. I made the mistake of waiting as well, I did not want the infantry models in the Bret battalion and none of the other sets are sold by LGS's anymore so no discount. You can easily replace men at arms/longbowmen with Perry or similar but nobody quite does the right style of knight for Bretonnia.
>>45994752
I think the Perrys will help very much, but perhaps I might find something on Ebay. I was lucky enough with my Brets to get them for free, perhaps I can find something else for a fair price.
About the ASB, I thought about adding a white line for marking him as a bastard son, and he might try to be willing to prove himself worthy of legitimization.
In real life I'm a medieval archaeologist, I will have to do special things with my knights when I want to be respected at work. Funnily enough there are enough enthusiasts at my job.
I even thought about getting a griffon for conversion for my personalized general (I really like the griffon and the hippogryph), but I would have to make seperate verions of him with different mounts. You know, for flexibility.
>>45994752
By the way, thanks for those good ideas!
>>45992188
>dark elves are actually pussies who never fight on fair terms. On even ground, faster reflexes don't matter as much when you have to face a gun line and then a wall of pikes.
>horde tactics, the ogres rarely invade the empire in large numbers. When they do, the empire makes heavy use of canons. Greatest concentration of blackpowder artillery ever in a single battle was to stop the Ogres from invading the moot.
>giant pussies who will flee even if they outnumber the enemy 10-1. Anything large and unusual only gets used in major invasion, otherwise its mostly slaves and clan rats. Kill the leaders and the rest of the rats panic
>chaos incursions are rare, history shaping events. Most of the time chaos is comprised of countless tribes who war and trade with each other, not one united force. Grand legions are the exception, not the rule, most chaos raids are just marauders stealing women and supplies. Occasionally a chaos warlord might get together 50 chaos warrios and a tribe of marauders, and maybe one sorcerer and a monster, to attack an imperial town to prove his might. Chaos armor doesn't hold up to blackpowder weapons as well as you think, nor does it hold up that well to greatswords or halberds.
>Kill the leader, the army crumbles. Though in the case of tomb kings, they tend to stomp mortal armies when they get their shit together, beating them is hard for everyone but nagash and daemons.
>give them what they came for, or just blast them away with guns. But whatever you do, don't be that wizard that tries to magically duel a slann
you should read empire at war, it gives some good insight on how the Empire manages to overcome its foes. Its pretty grounded, and i'm glad they cleared up exactly how great swords are supposed to be an effective unit.
>>45993385
There are mentions here and there that female skaven are not naturally large bloated baby machines, and that rather it's a bit of moulder magic that does it. It is therefor theoretically possible for a female to avoid that and star in pornography.
>>45994143
He looks absolutly great for table top standard, and the free hand ain't too bad anon. I can't wait to see your army done. (although I question why the unit banner had his personal heraldry.)
>>45995450
Yea greatswords were always peculiar to me. Historically speaking they would make more scene a a pikeman detachment.
>>45995562
Thank you!
Yeah, about the heraldry... To be completely honest, I began this knight before I got that big army, thinking he would be the only knight I'd paint, so I took my own family's heraldry. Then came this gigantic gift, and he was the only mini that wasn't from the nineties, so he looks a bit different than all the others. So I thought to myself that he might be the ASB and he could have the more or less same heraldry as my general, perhaps with a backstory of being a bastard son trying to prove himself worthy.
Once there is a real ASB he might give up his job, but I don't know yet what I will do with him then.
>>45995810
Yea if you paint the general or unit champion with similar heraldry it would be totally reasonable. It's perfectly feasible one or two knights might be from the same family.
>>45996127
Yup, that was my reasoning. At least it's not as painful as stripping my first knight already. Sooner or later that might happen though. Who knows. First I have a buttload of knights for colourful painting fun.
>tfw give every single chaos warrior I make a name and backstory, along with conversions as needed
Is this autistic? It's pretty good fun regardless.
>>45997091
For each warrior? Kinda autistic, but at least with Chaos is only a few guys. I prefer to just give the unit and champion a history, with maybe coming up with a quirk for a few of the models if something occurs to me while modeling them.
I managed to get the last of my FLGS's Tomb King stuff at a pretty steep discount since the manager hates the fact that they were dropped.
Here's what I got:
1x Liche Priest on foot
1x TK on foot
80 warriors
8 horsemen
6 chariots
3 warsphinxes/necrosphinxes
How do I turn this into a decent 8th edition army? I've heard that the Nagash ET book makes Tomb Kings a bit better, but what's wrong with them?
Thanks for the advice
>>45997194
Well my army is basically just 20 chosen and heros, plus marauders. Not a lot of warriors proper.
>>45995683
Greatswords are in a league of their own if we're comparing them to real life warriors. They don't have the luxury of standing shoulder to shoulder with their own comrades. For all intents and purposes, these men stand alone in the face of the enemy, holding their section of the line against whatever horrors the world has to throw at them.
>>45997292
They are extremely slow, and it really shows sometimes. Also, their units aren't terribly killy by themselves, or depend heavily on getting the charge off (chariots, colossus), with a few exceptions.
I'd try to get 3-6 necroknights, and 2 catapults (or convert them using leftover bits). When they hit and make a unit run, they are pure gold.
Also, a casket of souls wouldn't hurt.
I'd try to get a Colossus as well, just because pumping their WS up to 10 and seeing them destroy a unit singlehandedly is awesome, and you can use the model for the hierotitan as well (because this guy never received a model). Although another, more economic option, would be to create a colossus/hierotitan from the extra bits of the sphynxes. Which by the way, with a bit of creativity, you can get both the warsphynx and the necrosphynx from a single kit.
The kings from the sphynxes I'd convert them into more liches, or a herald, or whatever floats your boat.
Also, getting a few swarms or scorpions for cannon hunting woul be sweet. You can probably convert the swarms from your leftover bits and a bit of greenstuff though.
Please tell me theres more fluff for this, I'd love to see the arguments between the dwarfs and the engineers
>>45992480
Yeah. Going to need sauce on that
>>45998698
I don't think so. That's one of those things on the timeline to make more interesting. I don't think a guy like Henri Lamorte, a Bretonnian admiral, got any fluff and he turned back Settra.
>>45999374
>>On the next episode of Behind the Paint
>>"So I was locked into a contract, couldn't do nothing about it. The show must go on, right? Except the 'lead' was drunk and high all the time. I was arrested three times for drunken disorderly conduct and supposed to take anger management on account of what I did to those interns. Golden statues with wings? Fuck yo-"
>>45998618
>But Henri and Pterry would never make it home that night. Struck by a drunken GW executive, their lines spun out and hit a tree. Both were killed instantly. Henri would never go on to play Grand Melee for Bastonne U. Pterry would never take over his father's kingdom in the Border Princes. Their lives were tragically cut short, a sobering reminder of what happens when someone makes the choice to drink and manage.Sorry >>45999567 I needed to fix the image. Your choice if you want to put the thread back in order
>>45998717
>>45993726
Artist is arbuz budesh
>>45998618
wood elves confirmed for next on the chopping block?
>>46000134
Woodelves actually have seen some evidence for some staying power, what with the tree people. Perhaps not the elves themselves, but the trees at least.
>>45997292
Not a bad start, but you are missing some essentials: 2x Screaming Skull catapults and a Casket
With that, and Khalida you could turn this into a decent shooting archetype. Something like:
Hierophant
Khalida (proxy the TK)
some support wizards
big block of archers + khalida
small block of warriors as a bunker for mages
chariots for flanks/chaff hunting
2x sphinxes
2x SSC
Casket
Hierotitan (Kitbashed from the sphinx kits)
I think this is the army that is reachable with your models, should be around 2500 pts. You are missing the Tomb Guards for the light council build and the Necroknights for the constructs.
>>45998458
>>46000538
Awesome, thanks for the advice!
I like the idea of a shooty force, so maybe build 40 of the skeleton warriors as archers, then two units of 20 warriors as bunkers?
Screaming Skull Catapults are a favourite of mine, I just don't know where I'd get the models from, same for the Casket. If I can source them from somewhere, it'd be a grand idea.
>>45999593
He who was my companion through adventure and hardship is gone forever.
Alright, fuck this, I'll go and start brets as well
Tips for the first purchases? guess two battalions seems like a start...
>>46001117
At the very least, two paladins so one can bear a banner, and two knight units, one of which is Realm the other Errant. From then on you can tailor your purchases depending on what kind of army you want to play. I wouldn't blame you for going all cavalry, but neither would I snub peasants altogether.
>>45988629
GW is too retarded to realize that they could make a fortune by pulling out the old 80s mold and casting some metal beakies and goblins.
Is there any schools/colleges of magic outside Empire in the Old World?
>>46001695
I believe there was one in the Border Princes before it was burned to the ground. Other than that I don't think there are any formal schools as the rich send their sons and daughters to Altdorf.
>>45992188
They jack of all trades it, don't have to deal with the same degree of infighting and have like an ass load of gods and colleges of magic backing them up.
>>46001695
There well could be a handful of towers with a small order of mages here and there, and perhaps some proper institutions in the greater cities or tilea and estalia consider how little we know of them, but other than that, not that I know of.
>Lord of a land that no longer exists
>>46000538
Would bretonnian trebuchets with skeleton crews work as screaming skull catapult counts-as?
They don't throw skulls, but it's pretty close.
>>46002549
I wouldn't have a problem with it, though you'd probably want to switch out the counterweight for something more 'Tomb King-y'. The rule, as I see it, for 'counts as' is as long as I can tell what it is meant to represent.
>>45990352
The lady was never vague, it was always a explicitly a con by the elves in all the fiction. They just never defined who the lady was or what the elves aims were
Lords-
- Slaughtermaster (Ironfist, Level 4, Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Dragonbane Gem, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon)-383
Heroes
- Bruiser(Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of Discipline, Ironfist, Heavy Armor)-153
- Firebelly- (Addittional Hand Weapon, level 2, Hellheart)-207
Core-
- 18x Ogres (Full Command, Ironfists)-611
Special-
- 1x Sabretusk-21
- 1x Sabretusk-21
- 1x Sabretusk-21
- 1x Grimhorn Rhinox Rider (Heavy Armor, Thunderlord, Ironfist)-125
- 1x Grimhorn Rhinox Rider (Heavy Armor, Thunderlord, Ironfist)-125
- 3x Leadbelchers (Bellower)-139
Rare-
- Ironblaster-170
- Ironblaster-170
- Thundertusk-250
2396/2400
I could also switch the Rhinox to Mournfangs. Would that be a good idea? Is a 4 man Mournfang unit too big to be viable?
Why can't Tyrants ride Mournfangs?
>>46002626
That was introduced in the 6th edition Wood Elves book. While the Fey Enchantress had the profile of an elf mage, the Lady herself was always presented as a goddess and a separate entity from the elven pantheon. Saying that she was Lileath the whole time and that her plan was to turn the Bretonnians into the sword in her hand doesn't make sense as there was nothing in their history that implies that. The Fey Enchantress urged King Louen to ride to the aid of the Empire during the Storm of Chaos, but for the most part she and the Damsels of the Lady chose not to interfere in Bretonnian society. They come and go as they please, and only a fool would forsake their counsel, but they hardly made the Bretonnians into a weapon to fight an elven war. Otherwise they would have ridden off to fight every day and not behave like a human nation.
The End Times was sloppy and badly written and has no place in WHFB General.
>>46002832
There was little reason to have them go off and fight all the time, save for when the world was threatened at large, like the storm of chaos. The primary purpose was not so much to use them as sword, but a shield, a buffer state between the filth of the world and athel loren.
It seems to fit the lore pretty alright to me, and I don't begrudge it.
>>46003206
Even if that were the case it still doesn't make sense. The Bretonnian king during the time of the Great War refused to send aid to Magnus when he went to relieve Kislev. The High Elves aided Magnus, why would one of their gods not want a nation with hundreds of thousands of knights and their levies to not participate in the war? Sure the Bretonnians were dealing with a civil war, but so was the Empire. Not only that, only one dukedom was in revolt and a good portion of that dukedom defected to neighbouring lords because they did not want their honour to be stained with rising against the king.
So you have this sword of a nation but you don't do anything with it? The Kings of Bretonnia run the country 99.9% of the time, with all the pitfalls of men. Even if they are always Grail Knights, they don't necessarily get orders from the Lady on a daily basis. King Louis the Righteous declared an Errantry War to liberate Estalia and take the fight to Araby on his own without being told to by the Fey Enchantress or given dreams by the Lady. In his own wisdom he allowed the Knightly Orders of the Empire to join his Crusade.
In short, making her Lileath is a bad decision with no lore to really support it and it also goes against how deities are formed in Warhammer lore.
>>46003385
>In short, making her Lileath is a bad decision with no lore to really support it and it also goes against how deities are formed in Warhammer lore.
False, you post does not make sense and is just spouting random things.
The RPG had one of the Bret Knights discover the identity of the Lady and start a civil war over it.
Also remember that Lileath is not omnipresent or omniscient. Like the rest of the Elven Gods, she was exiled to the mortal world in a semi-mortal form. She cannot direct that kingdom of men like they were mindless drones which are an extensions of her will.
>>46003427
"Of the trials that Mallobaude faced in the cursed lands of Mousillon, none can say. All that is certain is that eventually Mallobaude came to the edge of the Forest of Arden. There he beheld a clear lake surrounded in mists, and watched as a hand reached up from the water holding aloft the Grail. But when Mallobaude took up the Grail and sipped its contents, he had a stunning revelation. Mallobaude did not become a Grail Knight, nor did he perish, as would those with impure hearts. Instead he saw through the veil of magic and discovered a terrible truth behind the Lady of the Lake. With this shocking realization Mallobaude became outraged at the lie that had shaped his entire life. He resolved to claim the throne for himself and free Bretonnia from the Lady's falsehoods forever".
-Barony of the Damned
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mallobaude
He had the same reaction Jerrod had during the End Times when Mannfred revealed that the Lady was the Lileath all along.
>2500pts
>Playing against daemons
>He gets first turn
>Reign of Chaos
>Kills 450pts of my stuff in the first turn before magic phase even starts
>mfw
Who the fuck thought Reign of Chaos was a good idea to put in, it's fucking bullshit.
>>46003487
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmn9asN-8AE
Get gud.
>>46003427
By random things you mean pieces taken from the Bretonnian army book? Evidence, yeah.
The Black Knight of Mousillon is said to have discovered some 'truth' about the Lady, nothing more. That's for the GM to elaborate on. He believes what he saw to be true, that doesn't make it actual truth. The piece about him even says it could be because his head is so fucked up over the shit he's seen.
Even if she isn't everywhere and all knowing, she must have been sitting on the couch watching her soaps if she missed the entire Great War.
>>She cannot direct that kingdom of men like they were mindless drones which are an extensions of her will.
Except she can exert her influence. The Lady leaves them to their own devices but when the need arises, her representative, the Fay Enchantress, can order the King to do whatever she wants. She is literally above him, and I quote;
>>Her will is that of the goddess, and even kings of Bretonnia must bow to her wise council. The Grail Knights, having sworn their lives completely to the goddess, are bound by their sacred oaths to respond to any call or decree of the Fay Enchantress. Their vows ensure that this duty is paramount, coming even before loyalties to duke and king, for the Fay Enchantress and the Lady represent the land of Bretonnia more than any mortal lord ever could.
Using garbage End Times writing to 'prove' your point does not help you.
>>46003581
>By random things you mean pieces taken from the Bretonnian army book? Evidence, yeah.
Yes, random thing that does not support what you are saying.
>The Black Knight of Mousillon is said to have discovered some 'truth' about the Lady, nothing more. That's for the GM to elaborate on. He believes what he saw to be true, that doesn't make it actual truth. The piece about him even says it could be because his head is so fucked up over the shit he's seen.
Or the truth about the Lady being an Elven ruse which we already knew since 6th ED. Pretending that his revelation has false just because I said so when he meta things that confirm it is asinine.
>Even if she isn't everywhere and all knowing, she must have been sitting on the couch watching her soaps if she missed the entire Great War.
Or she is plotting other things and directing things behind the scenes. Remember (you have an issue with that) that she is a seer goddess capable of seeing past and future with clarity few can match. She would have known that the Imperials would win and that there would be no reason to waste Bret lives on a far off conflict that does not benefit her designs.
>Except she can exert her influence. The Lady leaves them to their own devices but when the need arises, her representative, the Fay Enchantress, can order the King to do whatever she wants. She is literally above him, and I quote;
When she has the time. She has three guises and works with four cultures. She is a busy god-woman.
>Using garbage End Times writing to 'prove' your point does not help you.
It does when everything connects to it. Stop being such a salty nerd.
>>46003651
The only salty one here is you. I've given several references as to why the revelation doesn't make sense and all you've done is say 'nuh uh'. It's not random when it proves that Bretonnia is a nation that follows its own interests and doesn't do elf dirty work on a daily basis.
Let me make it clear; writing poorly thought out fluff to justify world ending events doesn't make for good story telling. The End Times is almost universally hated here for a good reason, because everything is a jumbled up mess made to kill of Warhammer in favour of Age of Sigmar. Nothing else.
Remember how the Bretonnians story was nearly wrapped up as soon as it began? Civil war has begun again, simply out of fucking no where, Louen is seemingly killed and the Black Knight gets his head cut off by the Green Knight who turns out to be Gilles le Breton. Then that's it. All the Grail Knights are conveniently left out of the rest of the story so that GW can shit on Bretonnia one last time and leave them out of the final battle. The last mention of Gilles is that he's fighting alongside Aborash, who also did squat. You are one of the few, if the only one, who defends this trash.
It's not only bad fan fiction, it's rushed fan fiction.
>>46000134
I think the wood elves will be fine, since the dryads are already in AoS.
Empire are likely to go, but I think it's for the best. That way they don't have to spend the rest of eternity sucking Stormcast dick.
>>46003729
>The only salty one here is you.
I am not dismissing a whole portion of the fluff because of hurt FEELINGS.
>It's not random when it proves that Bretonnia is a nation that follows its own interests and doesn't do elf dirty work on a daily basis.
And i pointed out that the Lady does not have the time, inclination, or the ability to make them 100% under her thrall as extensions of her self. Not even Nagash was able to do that with his Undead and living minions.
It was revealed in 6th ED that the Lady was an Elven ruse. There is no buts and ifs in this. They might not use the Brets all the time but they will when they desire it.
Then you said "why didn't the Brets fight in the Great War?! Surely, it means that the Elves do not control them?". And I say why would Lileath care about the far off affairs of men when she already knows the outcome of the war and how it's so damn inconsequential to her designs?
So all said doesn't support your point.
>Remember how the Bretonnians story was nearly wrapped up as soon as it began? Civil war has begun again, simply out of fucking no where
Actually, Mallobaude intentions for starting a civil war were always known since the RPG. Also the Bret civil war was mentioned in the Wood Elf 8th ED army book. IIRC, the Wood Elves helped out the Brets win the initials battles of that civil war. So it did not come out of nowhere.
Also the Empire is the main human character nation. You shouldn't have expected them to waste limited page spaces on secondary army.
>Louen is seemingly
Heroically against Ku'gath and Festus. Fulfilling his oath to the Lady.
>All the Grail Knights are conveniently left out of the rest of the story so that GW can shit on Bretonnia one last time and leave them out of the final battle.
Jerrod The douche and his men took part in the final events but opted out of going to fight Archaon in the last battle because his feeling were hurt when Lileath was revealed to be the Lady.
>>46003899
>>dismissing a whole portion of the fluff
That would be you and the writers of the End Times who ignored the rest of the fluff and rewrote what would conveniently carry their plot. If they wrote that the Halflings were actually the successful result of the Old One's plan to create a race capable of fighting Chaos and winning but were biding their time until the last moment then you'd be defending that too. You can write ANYTHING and say that's the way things are now because fuck logic and player involvement. GW learned from SoC that Chaos is played by babbys who need to win and be wanked off all the time.
>>Heroically against Ku'gath and Festus
You don't know what 'seemingly' means.
End Times is shit and so is your argument. You have yet to prove anything without saying "well in the End Times...", a story that conveniently changes what it wants so that the world can die and invalidate everyone's involvement at the same time.
>>46003899
>why didn't the Brets fight in the Great War?! Surely, it means that the Elves do not control them?". And I say why would Lileath care about the far off affairs of men when she already knows the outcome of the war and how it's so damn inconsequential to her designs?
this, plus her hand in the great war was Teclis, her main mortal champion. Why send thousands of knights to die when you can send 3 elf mages who will benefit the empire more than any crusade?
>>46004041
And yet it was all pointless anyway. Why bother playing when the game is rigged from the start?
>>46003977
>Halflings were actually the successful result of the Old One's plan to create a race capable of fighting Chaos and winning but were biding their time until the last moment then you'd be defending that too
Yes, I would. Because the fluff like the Bret fluff there is precedent for it.
The Ogre 8th ED army book has lore about the Ogres being an Old One weapon race against Chaos which explains their resistance to Chaos. The Halflings are speculated to be offshots of the Ogres.
The creation of the Ogres could have been an Old One plan to spawn the ultimate anti-Chaos race. The Halflings!
>so is your argument.
Nope, you argument is full of holes and have torn apart. Lileath being the Lady makes perfect sense and your whole argument of "Brets are doing their own thing most of the time" and "Why no Brets in Great War" has been explained away.
>>46004041
Oh.
I forgot about her Teclis her most beloved servant-child. She had absolutely no reason to involveb the Brets.
>>46004108
>>46003977
Fluff straight up says Ogres and halflings were created together, and with the intention of being resistant to magic. Also states they were unfinished, and the ogre rulebook mentions that they were intended to receive culture from the old ones, but the chaos war broke out and left them in their current state.
So if in the end times they said that halflings and ogres were meant to be the master race that defeats chaos, I would see it as sensible. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on whether they like that fluff or not, but it would have grounds in established lore. Same with Lileath being the lady. anyone can choose to like it or not, but it does have grounds in the fluff. To say it doesn't make any sense and goes against all logic is a lie.
>>46004108
Ogres and Halflings are rushed projects, much like the End Times, that failed to meet the Old Ones expectations. Humans are a mystery as they have neither the strength of ogres, fortitude of dwarfs or magical attunement of elves, but the Old Ones made them all the same. No one knows why and it's never been explained.
>>torn apart
Only in your mind. These details in the fluff were just that, details that weren't expanded upon because it happened so long ago. Then comes the End Times which says 'well the reason is this hack plot we wrote in a week'. I'm sorry that you seem to enjoy shit writing, but most people need more than that.
The Lady can't be Lileath because it would make no sense for her to exclude women and commoners from being part of this grand project of hers. Instead of supporting an aristocracy that oppresses women and poor people, she could have guided the nation into one that not only changes the way it conducts warfare, but also change its society that everyone who can fight will. Kislev is more progressive in that sense because when you sit on the doorstep to the Kurgans and other tribes, you need everyone to fight. The Lady on the other hand doesn't reward those who are not noble sons. Repanse is an exception, but every other knight is noble born. Why? Because that's how the Bretonnian knights are. Their collective thoughts and feelings created a goddess in the Realm of Chaos just like every other deity. She doesn't accept foreigners, women or peasants because the Bretonnian nobility doesn't.
Lileath, if she truly desired a puppet state, would have not allowed the Bretonnians to carry on this way. Why have an army of ten thousand knights when you could have a million loyal soldiers? It works for the Elves, females aren't barred from military service.
>>46004194
>>Finally, the Old Ones created the Halflings and the Ogres just before their fall; two somewhat desperate last-ditch attempts to create a magically-resistant race.
Whatever the Old Ones saw or felt coming, it caused them to throw whatever they had left into the pot and hope they cooked up something good. Based on that I don't see them as an ultimate race, but a 'fuck it' moment from a people who were desperately short on time. Besides, the most halflings contributed to the world was cooking so well that they got an Imperial vote out of it which would no doubt go to whoever is likeliest to win, as the Moot Elder shown in the Black Plague hated being involved in politics.
>>46004243
>Only in your mind.
Nope, only in your mind do YOU have an argument that makes sense.
Why would she care about the plebs of brets? She wanted an army of super knights (Spess marines tier) dudes and this was achieved by shaping the Brets culture into what it was. She didn't want millions of worthless chaft that will be moved down by Chaos. She wanted supreme warriors of great blood, skill, and education for her project.
>Their collective thoughts and feelings created a goddess in the Realm of Chaos just like every other deity. She doesn't accept foreigners, women or peasants because the Bretonnian nobility doesn't.
False.
The Lady (again with your memory issues) was hinted at and confirmed to be an Elven ruse in 6th ED.
>Lileath, if she truly desired a puppet state, would have not allowed the Bretonnians to carry on this way. Why have an army of ten thousand knights when you could have a million loyal soldiers?
She did not want millions of weak warriors. She wanted thousands of powerful blessed warriors. She built a nation dedicated into fostering this type of heroes for her ultimate project that she has been working towards for the duration of her life. The Elven sanctuary.
The souls of their powerful warriors will ascend to the sanctuary and act as guardians against the daemons until the new world is crated.
It all fits.
>Ogres and Halflings are rushed projects
So you admit that there is precedence for it?
>>46003977
If you think the abomination that was SoC was anyone but GW's fault you weren't paying attention.
>>46004243
>yfw when you are a tilean peasant chick
>>45988629
>And most importantly, do you consider canon the End Times lore around the Brets being Lileath's toys?
no. I even disregard that from earlier editions.
I admit that Lady is elven goddess. But in my headcanon she no longer deals with elves and she ain't Lileath. she's purely Bretonnian goddess now.
she still has some ties to Athel Loren, so Bretonni childred with magical talents still go to elves for training, but that's not part of any bigger plot on the side of Lileath or Ariel, but just a bunch of spellsingers that revere the Lady and teach bretonni children.
Fay Enchantress is leader of those elves, in my mind.
>>46004243
>The Lady can't be Lileath because it would make no sense for her to exclude women and commoners from being part of this grand project of hers
In the warhammer world men and women are still sexually dimorphic famila, in pretty much the same way they are in reality. You'll notice that the only ones who receive much in the way of that elven god juice among the elves are nobles as well. Elves and their gods appreciate nobility. That and the lady has a vested interest in maintaining the stability of a feudal state. Brettonia isn't a front line war zone like kislev or the border princes, it's a fairly peaceful, as far as warhammer goes, state.
>>46004335
Why wouldn't she want a large skilled army instead of a smaller skilled army? It's stuff like this that discounts her from being an elven goddess of dreams and prophecy because very little in their past supports this. Had there been more instances of her sending the Bretonnians on strange missions then I could accept this. As it stands in the Bretonnian book she leaves them to their own fate the majority of the time. Only in times of peril is her influence seen, which doesn't seem the part of someone who is some kind of master plotter. If I wanted to guide a nation I wouldn't let them run amok.
>>46004431
To be fair, an elven character in the War of Vengeance series said that the elves have a disproportionate amount of noble houses.
>>46004357
I didn't say it wasn't, only that GW didn't want player involvement after that because Chaos got spanked so hard that they had to cheat to get them to Middenheim.
>>46004486
>Why wouldn't she want a large skilled army instead of a smaller skilled army?
Because you know, farming and not starving to death is prettttty cool. Hence the reason the feudal system exists at all. Peasants learn how to farm, knights learn how to rule and beat the shit out of things, peasants feed their knight, knight beasts the shit out of beastmen who want to rape them. Notice the disparity in stat line between peasant levy and knight.
>>46004515
The elves, dwarfs and Empire seem to manage just fine. All elves rotate in military service, all dwarfs serve the king even if they're craftsdwarfs. The Empire's army isn't always in service, as men can be called out to the field and send back home when they are no longer needed for the time being. The thing about armed forces is that they're not constantly deployed in their entirety. Bretonnian knights still take Men at Arms with them when they go on campaign. Having a larger army doesn't mean you conscript every person in the country and send them off to war.
>>46004486
>Why wouldn't she want a large skilled army instead of a smaller skilled army?
Because the whole point of the Bret nation was to create a harvest of powerful souls to be guardians of the Elven sanctuary/new world. She shaped their culture and left them to their own devices. She would check on them from time to time to see how the harvest is going and if she needs them to advance her goals. Not all knights can past her test and prove worthy of her blessing. Only a select few of the noblest and bravest can, as we all know.
And was said before, she travels around the world in three guises. She doesn't have time to babysit filthy humans.
>>46004549
Have you heard of the words "training" or "practice"
>>45992419
Assembly line painting 40 clanrats, with a warlord, grey seer and assassin as carrots on a stick and to break up the monotony.
>>46004607
Yes, have you heard of good story telling and proper writing? Oh wait, you defend the End Times so you clearly haven't.
All those societies started from scratch, though the Empire got a big head start from their alliance with the dwarfs. In its roughly 1500 years of life, Bretonnia could have had a trained army rather than relying on feudal warfare but didn't because reasons. She could have done this long before Bretonnia became a nation. They used to be more like this before the 6th edition book. Men at Arms were called stoic, and bowmen were pretty good shots for humans.
>>46004712
>but didn't because reasons.
Does it produce zealous knights with great faith and willpower? No? Then it was not required. The stagnation of Bret culture indicates that things were proceeding as she wanted.
>>46004712
You sound like you're desperately shouting "nuh uh end times gross", which it is, but you're bitching about a bit fluff you don't like that's been pointed out all but explicitly for ages.
You haven't made any cogent points whatsoever. "if she wuzza elf she woulda made more sense duh. She woulda let girls be knights".
>>46004549
The elves have to rotate their citizens in military service to keep their armies close to golden age levels of strength. Back before their numbers were depleted they had normal professional soldiers. plus, elves don't seem to need nearly as many peasants to maintain the farms thanks to magic
All male dwarfs are naturally tough, hardy and skilled at war and they have been this way for ages. Having the industry and resources to equipt every man with at least mail armor and an axe and shield also helps. Plus, like the elves, they are dying out and have no choice but to send out their citizens as soldiers if they want to maintain large armies.
The empire is a human civilization shaped by humans who understand humans wants and needs. Not a nation shaped by a goddess who cares little for the lives of individuals and looks at the big picture. even lileath felt bad about the whole thing once she became a mortal and started to understand mortal lives.
you also have to remember that the primary goal wasn't to have a nation built for war, but to shape its greatest champions into her immortal guardians for the next realm. What better way to shape her champions than to always pitch them into war or dangerous situations? its the same thing as with the chaos gods and their champions. But instead of Maurader-Chaos warrior-chaos chosen-exalted champion-chaos lord-daemon prince, it goes Knight errant to knight of the realm to questing knight to grail knight to glowing ghost knight guardians of the haven. you don't just give all your magic power to the plebs, you let the greatest rise up from the crucible of war and shape them from there.
>>46004841
>you also have to remember that the primary goal wasn't to have a nation built for war, but to shape its greatest champions into her immortal guardians for the next realm.
Not him, but according to the leaked page of "GW book of secret fluff", the original plan was simply to have a somewhat active and numerous force that would defend the borders of athel Loren from foes like the orcs.
The stuff of making them for the elven secret heaven is restricted to the end times.
>>46004712
Josh Reynolds Opinion on the matter. Just an opinion, but it makes sense. Why would Lileath be micromanaging every aspect of bretonnian life when all she really needs are the massed knight armies and the ghosts knights? many real life human societies came out extremely classist and mysogynistic without the influence of an elf goddess, so its not much of a stretch that the bretonnians could treat their women and peasant folk so poorly.
>>46005008
forgot to add the pic related, dammit
who was this Lileath bitch before End Times anyway? apart from giving Raistilin his boobs-staff
>>46005081
Elven goddess of dreams and prophecy.
>>46005109
yeah, but who she was? what did she do? how did she impact the world?
one cannot just go from token NPC with just a name to a game-breaker like that
>>46005128
Teclis's sponsor, Seer of the gods, and the only god among the Elven pantheon that wasn't fading from the world (or at least at the rate pf the others)
>>46005128
>how did she impact the world?
Main divine freind of High Elves in DE(+ bad gods, especially Khaine) vs HE rivalry.
>>46005177
>, and the only god among the Elven pantheon that wasn't fading from the world (or at least at the rate pf the others)
It's ET.
>>46005194
8th ED.
>>46005204
Which means it's ET.
>>46005210
Nah.
It's 8th ED.
>>46005223
They already worked on ET during 8th ed., whole changes in fluff was simple preparations for ET.
>>46005210
you can cherry pick what you like from the fluff for your own headcanon but you can't deny 8th edition as canon because it ties into end times, which is also canon. Just because people don't like it doesn't make it less canon. Also, GW canon policy isn't "nothing and everything is canon" its "nothing is set in stone so we can retcon our own fluff to fit our current vision, since its pretty fucking impossible to have a setting exist for 30+ years and not want to change certain aspects of it." How dare those monsters edit their own intellectual property
>>46005238
They have been working on it since 7th ED.
>>46005273
Hi AoS-general.
>>46005284
Actually nope they starts working on ET and AoS after 8th ed. release.
>>46005290
Hello, Slavish warmachine troll.
>>46005296
>Slavish warmachine troll.
What?
>>46005294
Wrong.
Since 7th ED. It's when the major changes of Elf fluff started.
>>46005306
You know what I mean and I think the whole thread know.
You flip flop between supporting WHFB and AoS all the time just to shitpost and the whole bad English thing must be just for show because nobody is that bad at English.
>>46005308
>Since 7th ED.
You talking about ET only, right?
>>45992269
noice
>>45992188
>>45992480
>>45992689
All fine, but you guys are thinking too small. The empire is an actual, organized nation state. It has a population census, a standing professional army, laws that augment its powers, a militarized and devotional society to a warrior god, national institutions (war colleges, the knightly order, magic schools, warrior priests, gunnery schools, even a fucking zoo for gods sake), border forts, castle towns, patrols, diplomacy, taxes, centralised authority, technology, a goddamn manifest destiny mindset, the list goes on and on.
The real question is, how do any of the backwards tribe people stand a chance?
>>46005332
>You know what I mean
Well, about slav you are right, but what about warmachine, shit I don't even mentioned it.
>You flip flop between supporting WHFB and AoS all the time just to shitpost and the whole bad English thing must be just for show because nobody is that bad at English.
Okay, my English is bad, but shitposting, where? I just mentioned that according to your logic everyone here should discuss AoS, since it's only one canon and WHFb doesn't exist, oh wait, looks like I recognize you, few threads ago you tried to stop discussions about 9th age because it wasn't related with GW.
>>45992188
Plot armor that would put the Tau to shame. I want you to look at all the major invasions that struck the empire.
Nearly all of them ended not because of the Imperials fought them off but because some fortunate event saved the day.
>>46005362
>how do any of the backwards tribe people stand a chance?
Direct support from their own gods, crude numbers and strength.
>>46005375
We have the archives going back to the End Times threads where you started shitposting about warmachine. Also you called fantasy and Chaos generic.
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/38669999/#38670931
This is one of threads where you shitposted in saying that Karl Franz is WoW paladin. Are you going to pretend that's not you?
> since it's only one canon and WHFb doesn't exist
Wrong, I did not say that and the other anon did not say that.
>I recognize you, few threads ago you tried to stop discussions about 9th age because it wasn't related with GW.
You don't because I don't care about 9th age and never talked about it.
>started working
this discussion is meaningless
look at MCU. they have ANNOUNCED movies planned up 'till 2019 and UNANNOUNCED for many years beyond that.
current movies and TV shows all lay groundwork and plot threads for those future movies already (i.e. Agents of SHIELD introducing Inhumans that gonna get a movie in 2019)
same with 8th/ET/AoS
yes, they started WORKING on AoS after they did 8th
but that means ET/AoS must've been PLANNED long before 8th release - maybe even before 7th
>>46005409
Doesn't Siggy help too?
Thing is, I always wonder how societies like the beastmen, warriors of chaos, dark elves, and similar, gain enough cohesion to be a real threat. They need a deus ex moment like 'im the big bad leader, follow me to death like every other time we invade the humie place' or a god to tell them the same thing.
Otherwise, don't they just murder eachother?
>>45997091
I usually only name units, champions, heroes, and the occasional favorite nobody.
>>45997091
that how it's supposed to be done, even though precious few actually do that
>>45997194
>>46005480
>not naming every model
so you're saying that tragic story how Urist McDwarfington ended up being a Skavenslave is NOT IMPORTANT? it's a tragedy! so cynical of you...
>>46005445
That's the whole point of chaos mortals, most of the time they aren't a large scale threat at all. Chaos incursions or huge beastmen rampages are rare and when they do happen they tend to be very devastating.
Dark elves are lead by a BBEG and their society would collapse if it wasn't for a single strong ruler at the top directing his nation tons single purpose. Otherwise they would devolve into a bunch of infighting factions looking out for themselves, and would get rekt by the high elves
>>46005445
That's generally the case. It's when someone is a bad enough motherfucker to unite his fellows that shit hits the fan. Dark Elves not so much since they're more or less united behind Malekith, so they can be a threat to others when they're not trying to rape Ulthuan.
>>46005444
That does not make sense, the only reason AoS exists is because GW got completely the wrong idea of what to do from 8th hurting WHFB sales.
>>46005618
I doubt that. shit like ain't invented on the fly.
>>46005631
Its the only sensible assumption, there is no way they would invest that much money and take such a huge gamble with a game that was doing well.
Its more sensible to assume it happened after they fucked up with 8th and drove everybody off.
>>45988808
That is so fucking sexy...
>>46005434
>you started shitposting about warmachine.
>Also you called fantasy and Chaos generic.
>Karl Franz is WoW paladin.
Nah, looks too fat for me:
>Wrong, I did not say that and the other anon did not say that.
And I nver talked about Warmachine here (on /tg/).
>You don't because I don't care about 9th age and never talked about it.
Yes, you don't care, but you also don't like when someone starts to discuss rules and compare them with 8th ed.
>>46005665
yeah-yeah, and no way WotC would make D&D 4th Ed.
it's a nice meme and a maybe a humorous thing to say, that GW just went full retard all of a sudden, killed off WHFB and made AoS in a week, but it's just a joke, son. it has no ties with reality.
GW went full retard long time ago, planned WHFB's demise for years and made AoS ages ago
>>46005732
Not a single person has said it was done 'in a week'. You are just trying to push the idea it started during 6th which is moronic.
And I doubt anybody will honestly claim the rules took longer than that. They are the laziest rules I have ever seen.
>>46005674
Are you that idiot who told people to go back to the AoS thread if they had a problem with the unnecessary changes 9th Age has made?
>>46005770
>You are just trying to push the idea it started during 6th which is moronic.
I'm a different anon.
I'm saying AoS was probably DONE after 8th. but it was PLANNED long before that.
Nope, in previous thread I reply to 9th age-hater only once, when noticed that 9th Age was supported by WHFB community.
>>46005811
one of rumors said, that they started to planning AoS as post-ET game after the year since 8th ed was released and sales of WHFB countinued to fall.
>>46005445
Well imagine if you constantly had little groups of isis insurgents getting up to go terrorize middle america. It would hardly be a "real threat" but it's not exactly a minor incontinence. Beastmen get a long while to rampage through smaller towns before a proper army detachment shows up and considering the scale of warhammer of just being an engagement with a few hundred dudes at most, thats the level of threat the games meant for.. All the special heros and big fuckoff dragons don't really fit it if you ask me. Why is karl showing up to have a scrap along with 100 state troops? Maybe it's just the center of the line in a giant battle but that's hardly much fun. It's a game centered on upstart warlords, a single company of mercenaries, the estate of a single minor lord, or perhaps a fledging necromancer's host, or a skaven pirate ship in my mind. That way I can maintain my suspension of disbelief and not have to think "oh there is also 8000 other dudes off the board having a go with each other but I guess they don't matter"
why can't units charge each other? not only it would be realistic, it's also dumb that when two cavalry units clash, only one has momentum and can use its lances
>>46005674
Oh look he is pretending that's nor him in the archive despite the writing style and bad English matching it 100%.
>And I nver talked about Warmachine here (on /tg/).
A lie.
Nobody should take you seriously,.
You are not a WHFB player or fan.
>>46005833
>>46005849
That is a bit of an extreme statement,.
Lots of people are playing Kings of War or older editions and lots of the 'community' just vanished.
>>46005920
It's just how the turn structure works. Bretonnia used to have an ability that allowed them to counter charge, but I think that was about it.
>>46005922
There's always at least one shit poster in every WHFB general. He's fairly easy to spot from using End Times lore to supporting AoS to just being a nuisance.
>>46005920
Because as nice as the setting is, warhammer tabletop is hardly simulationist in the slightest.
Counter charge, overwatch, brace, flee, ect should all be options when charged. Spears should do damage when they get charged, but give the front rank after that a disadvantge, ect
The game has a lot of simplifications
>>46005946
>There's always at least one shit poster in every WHFB general. He's fairly easy to spot from using End Times lore to supporting AoS to just being a nuisance.
I am talking about the Slavic warmachine troll. You have been a regular in the warhammer end time threads you would recognize him.
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/38649747/#38651240
This is the thread that started it all. Someone anon bad mouthed warmachine and then Slav too offence to it and started shitposting in WHFB threads ever since.
>>46005922
Forget this bit.
>Yes, you don't care, but you also don't like when someone starts to discuss rules and compare them with 8th ed.
I never discussed 8th or 9th Age or engaged in any rule discussion at all in these threads.
>people trying to identify people and caring about what a person says beyond the content of their post
Reddit is down the hall, then take a right.
>>46006074
The problem here is people always fall to the same trick and threads are ruined by a persistent and easily identifiable shitposter, If people don't care to identify him for what he is, I said maybe I should give you guys some info about him.
Anyways, I delivered the message and it's on you folks if you are going to continue to fall for it.
>>46005899
But the fluff always had way bigger armies than the tabletop. This is warhammer, not skirmishmallet. Even real life armies tended to be bigger than what you would field on the tabletop
But if they keep killing wfb armies, how can we keep playing?
Wish i made meself an empire army while i still had the chance
>>46000768
>>46002549
Honestly, I would just glue some sticks together and on top of them I'd put some of the fuckton of leftover skulls that you should have. Add leftover banners at the top for a flashy touch. And perhaps use horse skulls for the bit where you put the projectiles. There, saved you £60 and won't look half bad.
>>46005732
I don't see it that black and white. I do believe that SOMETHING was planned years ago, but I also belive that it was probably a continuation of Fantasy, and they changed direction when sales tanked. It's not like AoS rules have much development behind them. It probably was around 2013. In 2013 WHFB was the fourth biggest wargame in the US. By late 2014 it didn't even appear in the top5 (and now 40k has lost its top1 spot and AoS hasn't broken into the top5).
>>4600567
Google davetaylorminiatures blogspot and search for Morr. This shitty algorythm won't let me post the link.
>>46006176
third party models? You don't have to buy GW models.
>>46006179
well, rules - obviously were made later.
but story? End Times? absolutely planned in advance.
>>46006204
The writing sure didn't show it. Maybe if the writers were getting high for the first six months of its development and then the boss burst through the door and told them to get their asses to work. And he accepted their first draft.
>>46006213
or it was the boss who wrote it. decided "I can do writing me". who could possibly stop him?
>>46006116
And in my mind I don't care for not owning my entire army and owning merely a single section of it. I find large scale battles to be nice background, but I'd rather actually play on a smaller scale. I'd rather have the entirety of Dorghan's Reavers, a trio of norscan warships, or the entire Patched Company, a bunch of border prince mercenaries, or at most the entirety of Boss Sokgol's boys, a scouting force for a larger waaagh. I like the human scale of battles with a total of 200 warriors. Plus there are plenty of perfect warhammer battles at that scale waiting to be played in the novels and such. In the first gotrek and felix book there is a battle between some 100 goblins and some orcs led by a goblin shaman and 60 state troops, one troll slayer, and level one celestial wizard with chain lighting, and because of that small scale individuals turn the tide of battle, characters matter. Thats what the game ought to be about, at least in my opinion. It's the scale 28mm is meant for.
>>46006196 --> >>46005670
Need help to come up with a nice organ gun conversion! Since you get one cannon and one organ gun in the pack, what is the easiest way to get both?
>>46006199
Try the Perry Bros. They made most of GW's better models and they currently sell a range of 15th century soldiers that are a prefect fit for the Empire.
Honestly, now's the best time to be a 3rd party model developer since GW have completely shit the bed.
>>46006204
Absolutely? Lol. The writing was shit and there wasn't much nuance to the plot twists. You can write those books in under a month, it's teenage prose (not that WH books are usually much better).
>>46006226
THISSSSS
I never found appealing being Karl Franz, or Teclis, or Archaon. The cool stuff is being a lowly Bretonian noble fighting off a necromancer from Mousillon, the forces of a small HE colony standing up to a minor Tomb King that wants his favorite sightseeing spot back, the warrior priest leading the forces of a small village against a third rate skaven clan.
>>46001695
Yo.
>>46006196
There is a third company that basically makes that minature
>>46001695
Tower of Hoeth in Ulthuan
Ghrond in Naggarroth
Hogwarts in Albion
>>46006276
I'm actually wandering. Will third parties benefit as they gain the fantasy market share or will the market shrink so much from gws aforementioned shitting of the bed they lose out on what percent they id already have for themselves?
since I can't support another army, I thought I could make a strictly limited 500pts force (i.e. a fixed army with no options)
then I had a rogue thought I can have 500pts forces for all the armies I want...
How slippery a slope am I approaching? Is it a good idea to have small forces instead of full armies?
>>46005444
We don't know exactly the time, but Gav Thorpe admitted the whole AoS movement (codename: Stanley) was revealed by GW and black library higher ups when he was working on the curse of khaine for the end times.
Considering what the artists and freelancers do, it's likely to think that while the idea may have been in the air for a while in the closed upper management, the actual execution was probably little more than a year.
GW is releasing stuff at a crazy pace: The superficiality of the models is indicative of that too, on top of repurposed wips like the one for forge world's k'daii destroyer that became that new thing for the khornates.
It is ostensibly rushed, GW is no marvel.
>>46005922
>despite the writing style
Then describe traits of this "writing style".
>and bad English
Well surprise, a lot of slavs knew English bad.
>A lie.
If you say so highmarshal of /whfb/.
>>46006298
None of those are in the Old World.
>>46006301
I'm not sure how most 3rd party model companies are doing, but Mantic Games have had interest in their game, Kings of War (which you could describe as a poxy WHFB game) triple after Age of Sigmar was released.
>>46006301
The miniatures market as a whole has been growing despite the long term decline in GW sales.
Perry at least is fine, their main market is historicals. The fantasy proxying is just a nice side show.
>>46006352
I do incremental armies. Buy a fixed 500, then add another until I get to usally 2500 or 3000 so I have wiggle room to play a 2000 point list. I will hop between armies all the time, so I may do the 500 to 1000 increment for my orcs, then the 1500-200 for my vamps, then 0-500 for a new force. Works well for me.
>>46006358
Only you.
And it's funny that's you're acting like it wasn't all that you all this time. You are truly a gutless shitposter.
>>46006379
I'm mostly concerned about the blatant !Not GW companies like scibor, AoW, Gamezone, and their ilk that fed off gw's market deliberately rather than incidentally like perry, and while KoW is popular, hell I play it, I have never seen a mantic model that didn't make me vomit in my mouth.
>>46006355
>GW is no marvel
pun intended?
>>46003899
>Also the Empire is the main human character nation. You shouldn't have expected them to waste limited page spaces on secondary army.
This is bullshit. Complete and utter horseshit of the highest caliber. The entire point of Warhammer is that there are a bunch of armies with interesting stories to tell, not that it's the story of The Empire and the Also-Rans. Leaving out one (particularly a fan favourite) from the climactic end of the game is a hugely shitty thing to do, especially when the 'limited page space' is something the designers put on themselves. And it's horseshit anyways, because the Skaven got hundreds of pages about their shenanigans and how they apparently took over 70% of the world while everyone was looking the other way.
With a viewpoint like that, I'm surprised you aren't a writer for GW.
>>46006391
>Only you.
Keep repeat it, nothing will changes.
>You are truly a gutless shitposter.
Or may be you are fall into paranoia when some people starts to discuss non-GW stuff (rules or models) in general.
>>46006405
I'm just surprised he didn't add :^) to his post.
>>46006355
>We don't know exactly the time
>curse of khaine
He mentioned rumors about the end times were already around and being duscussed
http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2016/03/06/warbeast-authors-notes/
looking at the beatmen codex and I'm a bit confused.
Why aren't any of the unit types listed?
>>46006405
>because the Skaven got hundreds of pages about their shenanigans and how they apparently took over 70% of the world while everyone was looking the other way.
Actually, what the Skaven were doing were something in the background and only got a few line there and there until End Times Thanqoul came and went, and then the Skaven were once again thrown into the background. It is this kind of stuff that makes me wonder if you guys actually read the books instead reading it off 1d4chan.
Like it or not, the Empire was the primarily protagonist faction of the setting and the focus the main narrative. Pretending otherwise is just being silly.
>>46006424
I don't have to repeat it. You know yourself and you know you shitposted like crazy.
And speaking about paranoia when you are confusing me for someone else only makes things much funnier.
>>46005336
According to an article I read recently written by Gav Thorpe, Age of Sigmar was in the works since 7th edition.
Funnily enough, it was referred to as 'Cucumbers' during that period. Gav doesn't know why.
>>46006458
>Like it or not, the Empire was the primarily protagonist faction of the setting and the focus the main narrative.
And that's why in first editions there were no Empire army, just humans (bunch of universal units +1 or 2 for each nation if I remember correct) and even in ET Empire wasn't in focus in the most of books, unlike Chaos and elves.
>>46006458
Defending bad writing doesn't make it any less bad.
>>reading it off 1d4chan
So people who have read it, hated it and now tell others how bad it was.
Just because it has the most spotlight doesn't mean you should give the finger to just about everyone else. This isn't Warhammer: Empire vs Chaos. If the purpose of the End Times was to give Warhammer a big ol' send off, then everyone should have had an equal part to play and not fuck certain races in the ass because you couldn't be arsed to write some decent fluff.
>>46006489
No, 7th edition was Cucumber, Age of Sigmar was Stanley.
>>46006489
>Fun fact – the Age of Sigmar project was called ‘Stanley’ throughout its creation. Other Fun Fact – back in the day when we worked on Warhammer 7th Edition, it had the codename ‘Cucumber’. For no reason at all.
So it's bloody confirmed that that they have been working on it for a long while. I would motion for all those who argued against this in this thread to suck one bigsquig.
>>46006458
Yea to be entirely fair the empire has always been sort of the center of the setting. Brets are a port of Arthurian legend kinda stapled to the side it because the perry bros wanted to sculpt some 13th century knights. Not that I have anything but fondness for them, but it's true.
>>46005899
>>46006226
Well, they tried making bigger armies, but nobody bought Warmaster. Personally, I have no problem switching between saying, "This is a battle between a few hundred guys on some nameless road in the World's Edge Mountains," and "This is a representation of an army many times this size, simplified so that I can go home tonight having completed a game and not just spening 6 hours working towards finishing the first turn's Magic Phase."
>>46006475
>You know yourself and you know you shitposted like crazy.
Irony, but I wasn't even on /tg/ during the most of ET.
>when you are confusing me for someone else only makes things much funnier.
And I confuse you because you say it, right?
>>46006179
That looks pretty damn good! I think I might carve some spare bits of sprue to make the wood and construct it that way.
>>46006355
I thought during 7th Ed it was Cucumber or something
>>46006509
So they actually planned on releasing the End Times books only to discontinue them a few months later?
>>46004335
>She did not want millions of weak warriors.
Blast, you're right! If only there were examples of other human factions in WHFB having effective female or peasant warriors! But alas, neither Kislev nor the Empire nor Nehekhara nor Warriors of Chaos nor any other Human or magically-enhanced human faction has any such cases. Truly you have bested >>46004243 's logic.
Or… no. Wait. You routinely find named female characters and people of common birth in all those factions - both magically talented, magically blessed, and utterly deprived of either - who give it just as good as any other soldier, with numerous sources for WoC, Kislev, and the Empire (hell, the Knights of the Grail supplement for Bretonnia also makes such commentary!) even going further to suggest that the number of female combatants is underestimated due to a number of them passing themselves off as males so as to avoid scrutiny or social stigma.
Then there's the fact that Lileath is an Elven deity, and it's pretty fucking obvious that the Elves lack any particular bias against females or people lower on the socio-economic rungs being in their armed forces seeing as how practically every kit has at least one female-only specialist fighting unit / tiddy-plate toting torso models for their army, makes no mention of their armed forces being "No dirty peasants allowed".
"Because many of them wouldn't be fit to be grail knights"? Before the claim's even made: So too aren't most of Bretonnia's current knights? Hell, Lileath even goes so far as to have no complaints with the idea of stringing an unsuitable candidate along for decades at a time before letting them sup from the grail and perish outright.
>>46006496
>This isn't Warhammer: Empire vs Chaos.
Yes, it is.
Even back in the day in the times of SoC, the main conflict was Empire vs Chaos. Everything else was secondary.
>Defending bad writing doesn't make it any less bad.
I am not defending anything. I am just sick of people trying to argue with me when they aren't knowledgeable enough on the subject.
>>46006538
sure, why not? not a problem at all, from their point of view
>>46006454
pls respond.
Are centigor cavalry or just infantry?
>>46006509
I think you misread that. I belive he's saying AoS was Stanley, and he goes on a mild digression to say 7th was Cucumber, not that cucumber was later changed to stanley.
>>46006277
Yes plus the entire point of this game is to have Your Dudes. Why in the fuck would I ever stoop so low as to field someone elses dudes. There are a few special characters that fit the scale though. Wulfrick the wanderer, Luthor huss, Pretty much any hero level special character come to think of it.
>>46006537
Cucumber WAS 7th edition, Stanley was AoS
>>46006370
>Albion is not Old World
Hi Great Britain. Yes, we remember, you're in the middle of the Atlantic and have nothing to do with those Continentals, for sure. Seeing you across the Channel is just a trick of the light.
>>46006540
You say
>Why would she care about the plebs of brets? She wanted an army of super knights (Spess marines tier) dudes and this was achieved by shaping the Brets culture into what it was
But to take your example to its logical conclusion? Great, now Space Marines not only pick the best of the best warriors… but they only pick them from Hive Spire nobility and Planetary Govenors' families. What's that? You have some kick ass viking-people on Fenris you think are viable? Let me check my lineage catalogue… nope. See, that warrior dude's mother four generations back was of common birth before she married a chieftain, so he's not noble. Leave him to die, that one.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not agreeing with >>46004243 that it must mean Lileath can't be The Lady. I'm just agreeing that if she's trying to recruit spiritual-warriors by the bulk, she has a very shitty and ineffective method of doing so.
>>46006526
>>46006526
The links I just posted proves you a liar. Sorry, slav-anon, you can't shitpost your way out of this one.
>>46006564
I was talking about Hogwarts. The Lizardmen took back Albion and exterminated nearly all life there, all of it if I remember correctly.
>>46006570
>>46006540
You
see
>>46005008
>>46005017
Mister Josh explains it better than I ever could.
>>45988629
>do you consider canon the End Times lore around the Brets being Lileath's toys?
Well, it's better than the "Lady is Ariel and Brets are WE's Toys" crap that was going around before the 8E WE book at least, but I prefer a mystery.
>>46004243
Heh, damn. I've used the Repanse model for my Lord for ages. Guess from a fluff PoV I shouldn't give her Grail Vow.
>>46006564
>sherweald
>mercia
>saxony
they didn't even try, did they?
>>46006570
you'd have a point... IF THEY WEREN'T BOMBING FENRIS TO SMITHEREENS FOR BEING BLOODY LOWLIFE ZOOPHILIACS AS WE SPEAK!
>>46006509
How could he have called AoS cucumber during the 7th ed if he only knew about it by the end of 8th?
>>46006570
It makes more sense to concentrate development on a single knightly class rather than the entire population. If you have an elite class who can focus entirely on combat you're going to get more super warriors that if everyone kinda fights sometimes.
>>46006588
Oh, I have no problem with Reynolds' answer: It fits, and was something I was even going to suggest as an alternate explanation. "She didn't set up the system like that, but it still yields enough positive results that she doesn't shake up the status quo in a risky attempt to wring out more."
I was contesting the "/She/ set up the system specifically like that because /obviously/ it's the most effective method". Because clearly it's not if you're merely interested in short-term (relative to an Elf-God and their people's lifespan, anyways) harvest of as many viable warrior-spirits as possible.
>>46006557
I think Green Knight would also fit at that scale despite being Lord level since he's less a person and more a summon.
>>46006572
Well, Dark Shadows ends with the Lizardmen changing the climate to allow for jungle growth, but I don't think they'd taken it over completely or totally pacified the locals. I know both the Empire and the Dark Elves established some colonies there, but I think Neuland failed and was abandoned. Not sure if the Delfs are still there.
>>46006548
Beastmen is a 7th edition armybook, while the proper unit types used in 8th were released with that, I think.
You should find them in the summary of units at the end of the rulebook or in a FAQ&errata if you find it.
I'm pretty sure centigors are warbeasts though.
>>46006571
>The links I just posted proves you a liar.
Nope, it didn't proves anything except the fact, that there were slavs in whfb-general before me.
>Sorry, slav-anon, you can't shitpost your way out of this one.
Sorry "only licensed by GW discussions"-anon (really sorry cannot recognize who you are, jamal from ghetto or refugee from, Germany).
>>46006548
technically they are warbeasts
GW website listed them as cavalry though
RAI was clearly that they use their spears like cavalry does
don't remember what FAQ said
>>46006602
>they didn't even try, did they?
Is this your first time looking at a WHF map?
Check out the Bretonnia map, they literally just took the names of French duchies and transplanted them in 90% of cases.
>>46006564
Albion is totally isolated from the rest of Old World.
>>46006651
that's different. foreign countries may very well all be fictional anyway. there's no paris in WHFB, no calais, so it's ok.
but britain is real and taking stuff from britain is well...
>>46006636
Except the posting style is identical to those archived and the GW hate as well.
Are you saying that all slavs have the same posting style as you? Now it gets more funny and pathetic.
>>46006590
>Well, it's better than the "Lady is Ariel and Brets are WE's Toys" crap that was going around before the 8E WE book
But why? it was more interesting since this version not bury another plotline in "order s Chaos"
>>46006542
>back in the day
>SoC
Anon, I think the problem you're having is that your 'back in the day' is a lot more recent than that of many other posters. 6th Edition was a while ago, but it's not the beginning nor Holy Grail of canon. You've brought up several times that things are long established, but the farthest back you go is 6th and WFRP2e. You're saying they're not knowledgeable enough, but they're drawing from a deeper well than you.
>>46006677
>britain
>real
Britain is just an invention of the Americans so that they could say they overcame a global empire. They're a myth, anonymous.
>>46006548
Pretty cure they're cav rules. You are basically just left to do guess work, and because centigors don't have the normal mixed profile it's confusing, but I'm pretty sure they are cav.
>>46006610
That depends on a number of factors (for example: I'm sure the Warriors of Chaos would disagree with you if you tried to make this comparison between Norscans and Bretonnian Peasants, likewise Kislevites and Bretonnian Peasants), but as is obvious in the examples many of these factors may not apply to a semi-peaceful buffer state instead of a constantly-at-alert buffer state or a raiding folk.
However, once more, >>46006619 I'm mainly disputing that neither peasants nor female nobility could /possibly/ become Grail Knights of equal talent and prowess to those we've already seen, and that the system was one obviously set up by Lileath as the most effective she could make.
>>46006682
>Except the posting style is identical to those archived
Where? Show us those specific traits of posting/writing style, except bad English.
>Are you saying that all slavs have the same posting style as you?
I never said "all", only "a lot of".
>>46006688
>but they're drawing from a deeper well than you.
You would have point if the anon that was replying to me and I weren't talking about the End Times which he has shown to have poor grasp over which made me call him out on it.
If he cannot draw from shallow wells, then I don't trust him to draw from the deepest.
and 6th ED represents the modern and idealistic WHFB, imo and others.
>>46006622
He fits the scale but not really the narrative of "your dudes" you know? You can make an army around luthor's wandering band of religious nuts and follow their exploits. You can make Wulfricks sky fleet. You can't really make an army around the Green Knight, he's hardly a permanent fixture.
>>46006630
There was a FAQ calling centigors cav.
"Centigors count as cavalry, albeit of an unusual type, with a single profile. They follow the normal rules for cavalry models, including the +1 bonus armour save"
>>46006731
Look in the archives linked. You know yourself.
>I never said "all", only "a lot of".
I think you just mean you. I mean a lot of Slavs write in the same style and shitpost about the same thing? Wow.
>>46006630
>>46006649
>>46006702
Ok thanks, its a bummer FAQ for fantasy aren't on the website any more.
>>45995170
Would be great to make some Questing Knights bastards of your lords/heroes
