>tfw your fighter's turn takes 6 seconds and the wizard takes 2 minutes
Does this happen to anybody else? How can I kindly break it to my fellow PC's that they need to pick up the fucking pace?
Pull a 4e and give them note cards. Blue for non-combat stuff they wasted a level up for and fed for combat things the GM will make backfire on you.
>>45987716
Here, let me summarize every fucking wizard turn in combat ever:
>Hold on guys, just thinking about what spell to cast for this situation.
>Hmm.
>Hrm.
>How about- no.
>Just give me a moment GUYS
>Um
>Just looking a bit longer
>Got to make sure I've made the right choice.
>I cast Fireball.
>>45987817
Sounds like it would be time to ban him from casters until he can get his shit together.
That or restrict him to magic missile master or warlock.
>>45987716
Generally in my group the people that play casters and bookkeeping heavy classes are also the ones who like to be efficient. Spell cards, planning out their turn during everyone else's, contingencies already thought out and all of the bookkeeping done between sessions. We don't usually have an issue with it, and when it does pop up due to things like massed summons we pass out control of them around the group.
Past that it's things like color coding your dice for things. When I was playing a melee centric character last time I had a very silly 8+ attacks in one turn thing going on. I had 8 different sets of colored dice so I could just toss the handful down and have to-hit and damage all rolled, then just tally it up against whatever I was told the AC was. Had a similar thing with a wizard who would tell the DM how many and what DC saves needed to be made, then help roll them. All rolls on the table of course.
>>45987817
>GM: "At what?"
>Wizard: "Uhmm..."
Several more minutes later.
>Wizard: "At the darkness."
>>45987716
Tell the wizard to pick his spells before his turn starts. Get him a small timer. Give him spell cards, or an actual book. It only knows the spells he knows, not everything in the book. Talk to your players like a well adjusted adult human. Play 4e. Have enemies act in the wizards turn. Give the fighter bonus 'reaction time' exp.
>>45987817
I think this says more about spellcasting classes than about the players who play them.
How long can it take for the fighter to say "I attack." every round?
>>45987817
Now all you need is the wizard spending another minute or so harrumphing over the board while he figures out the best possible placement for his fireball among the giant horde of orcs.
>>45987716
"The mage thinks about what he can cast... next player please."
That was our rule. Made especially for me.
>"John, think about what spell you want to cast while it's not your turn."
>"Good idea."
>"Okay John, now it's your turn. Have you decided?"
>"Yeah almost, just gimme a sec. What does Magic Missile do again?"
DAMN IT JOHN.
>>45987901
Yeah this is probably true. I've seen this problem crop up in games where non-casters can have a wide variety of options as well.
If you do set a time limit for players to take their turn, what's an appropriate penalty if they still haven't decided when time runs out?
Whats the point with that many spells if they feel so interchangeable the player can't make a decision?
>>45988009
The same as in real life: They do nothing.
>>45988009
Turn skipped, next luck next time.
See >>45987937
>>45987952
>"It doesn't work, he cast shield last turn and you didn't spellcraft it. Next"
>>45988009
A round is 6 seconds, so they have 6 seconds to begin making some kind of declaration about their actions or they get skipped. They can take more time from there, but as long as they've actually started it's okay.
Does this sound fair-ish?
>>45987854
I'm one of those slow players. A lot of you think this is laziness or thoughtlessness, but some people are just better at shooting from the hip than others.
Character concepts with a high degree of complexity at the table are a problem for people like that, and honestly you should help him precalculate where possible but otherwise get him to focus on character types that play more quickly at the tabletop.
That doesn't necessarily mean simple classes. I once played a fighter that had so many situational bonuses that I was recalculating my to-hit every round from scratch, with it changing enough that I had to do it during my turn, and that DEFINITELY slowed things down. Whereas when I've played a wizard it's pretty fast because I have the spell written out already and have planned out what I'm going to cast and what rolls are required during other players' turns.
You can have that complex charop character and still not slow the game up. One way is to make sure that the complicated part is all in the build, not stuff that takes place at the tabletop. Conditional/situational abilities are a major problem here.
It really depends. Talk it through with the GM and the player, explain the problem and suggest alternatives that are easier to precalculate. He's probably not trying to screw things up for you.
>>45988009
I think a GM should give players a certain number of times per session that they can extend their turn past the timer, perhaps based on the class they play.
>>45988395
I'd say that only kicks in on the second full round of combat -so everyone has taken one turn- so everyone gets an opportunity to look at the battle grid, check available spells and maybe think general tactics before going into timed combat.
That's a quick and dirty fix though, there's probably a more elegant solution.
You fuckers better be glad you dont move on to something like shadowrun or ffg star wars.
Sounds like half of you would have a stroke if all players took time to plan their actions or coordinate with other players for better out come.
>>45987716
The party wizard has his shit together, so I don't have this come up a lot.
If I have to do something like that, I'd just put them on a timer.
>>45987901
>>45987988
It's a problem with the players, not the class.
They either don't know exactly what they can do (So they have to look it all up) or they don't bother thinking about what they're going to do until their turn comes up (So they have to consider it).
Someone who knows their stuff and is planning during earlier turns is able to get their turn done fast.
I don't know if this is more a problem with d&d or if all spellcasting systems have this, but it's enough to make me never want to do fantasy again.
I think the biggest problem is how they give you some vague wording as an attempt to give you some leeway with your rulings, when the effects need to be extremely specific.
Nothing like the spellcaster grinding the game to a halt to argue that "detecting the presence of magic within 30 feet" means it's exact location rather than... Well, that magic is present within 30 feet of you.
>>45989124
>or they don't bother thinking about what they're going to do until their turn comes up
It's great to say that and all, but the board conditions change with every turn so, while the player may be thinking they're going to cast fireball at the bulk of the enemy horde, if the enemies suddenly disengage and fan out right before the player's turn and, they need to formulate a new approach on the spot which leads to delays.
>They either don't know exactly what they can do
Another problem, now you got to do something else but that might mean you're dropping concentration on a spell which means your friend over there is fucked, so you can't do that so you need to try something different...
Factor all this shit together and you can see how it's a problem.
Yes, but alternatively
>Fighter slaps everything with his weapon
>Never moves an inch
>Never uses his battlemaster abilities
>Never tries using the environment to his advantage
>Just spots the nearest bad thing that attacked him and slap it to death, then repeat until there are no more things to slap or he himself has been slapped to death.
>Zero roleplaying on his part
>Rarely ever adds input during non-combat even when I make his character an important piece
I already downgraded the player from Paladin because he would never use or remember his features. Might as well just make him an animated sword.
>>45987937
Works better with a mid to large group. I did that exactly once and the player stormed off, the other 2 players realized that a.) d&d was not designed for a 2 person party b.) d&d is no fun without a true spellcaster.
Didn't take long for that campaign to die.
>>45987716
Magic will always be more complicated to execute than narrating a sword-strike, in D&D, at least. Magic does weird status effects and damage for X,Y,Z caveats while the metal weapon will just "attack" unless the character has special abilities to consider (and even those typically don't have odd resistance rules or etc.).
>>45987937
I've heard of time limits per turn--I'd feel mean for making someone lose a turn, though. Not their fault they lack their character's INT score.
>>45988395
I like the idea but I feel like 6 seconds is maybe not quite enough time. I play with a big group and it's often hard to see what's going on, and occasionally players have questions about the layout that their characters would see in the situation but the actual players might not see. I'm for having a time limit to keep the game moving but 6 seconds is kind of draconian.
>>45987716
Hey, so just kind of asking to the whole thread here, should I set a time limit for player's combat turns, and if so, how long? Because sometimes I just get bored waiting for the player to make his/her move, and I feel like the other players do too.
>>45987716
I have the exact opposite.
No really the Barbarian (Not fighter I know) doesn't even think of what they'll do for their turn. While the Wizard already decided what he'll do at the end of his last turn.
Combine that with having to teach Not!Kratos how to do basically anything a million times and shit gets boring as hell.
>>45991104
Not who you replied to but this reminds me of the board game codebreakers.
Along with the game comes a timer and the only rule with it is that if any player feels like someone is taking too long with their turn anyone can turn it over and if the timer runs out they lose their turn.
So only when people feel like they are taking too long is a timer activated and they have a clear and consistent limit that any player can use.
>>45987716
Everyone should have a general idea of what they're going to do in the next round or two, and what things might disrupt that. From there, it's just fucking paying attention and being capable of basic critical thinking to change your plans slightly.
Caster or not, if you can't figure out "Well they're all grouped up so I should use one of the three AoE spells I have. They're in a roundish bunch so Fireball is the most appropriate." in about 20 seconds or less you really don't have any business playing anything more complex than Single-Target Attacker.
>>45988395
close to the rule i do but i give 10 second
>>45991075
>Not their fault they lack their character's INT score.
Talking of which, has anybody tried giving players an amount of time for combat decisions that depends on their character's INT?
I run gurps, so 1 turn is 1 second, I skip players if they take more than a couple seconds to declare an action
I actually brought this up to my group a few weeks ago. We're already a large group (6) and 2 are magic users. I mentioned kind of non chalantly that maaayybe the spell casters could be a little better prepared so that the game moves along a little bit quicker and is more engaging for everyone and got nothing but pushback or indifference from everyone including the gm.
It's like wtf man? Is everyone really going to sit here and act like the magic users don't take 4x longer to do ANYTHING and it's mostly because they don't do their due diligence for the character they chose to play? I play a monk and one of the casters got on me about how they have to sit and watch me do a bunch of damage when my attacks hit and the gm agreed.
Fuck that. I'm running a game now and I use a small hour glass. If you aren't rolling by the time the sand is out then you're skipped. Also, I am running and extremely low magic game with only 4 ppl. Fuck magic.
>>45987716
If distance from enemy <=5 feet, Full Attack.
If distance from enemy <10 feet, 5 Foot Step then Full Attack.
If distance from enemy >=10 feet, Charge.
If Charge not possible, move towards enemy.
Gee, so difficult. I wonder why the wizard takes longer to decide what to do?
>>45988009
-1 to ac against the next attacker, stacking for however long that turn takes. Its the equivalent of their character going blank in the heat of the moment, which is a very real thing.
>>45987716
Although an spellcaster (specially wizards) can and often should take more time than fighters to decide which spell to use, they shouldn't take enough time to let the session ram into a pausewall.
Using a small timer (Wizard players looove sand clocks and the like) should allow the wizard to take enough time to decide between 3 or 4 conventional spells and shouldn't be removed until player learns to step off that vice.
Player can intentionally give up initiative in order to have a few extra seconds to do shit or wait for enemies/players to line up correctly. Player may alternatively pass turn entirely and begin the next one as if having rolled max initiative; if the player wishes to do so, you can grant them a full dodge and concentration bonus as well (since a mage that is looking for options will be more likely conscious about the current environment), and if that doesn't work (example n00b players) have the more experienced niggas pick up the spell for the player a few times until he picks up the pace.
IME the ones that really take long to decide what the fuck to do are the optimized charging leaping barbarian (since he would always love to use the magical charging leaping raging spear maneuver from behind in silent rage), the tactical ranger (Oh god this nigga should have more time but even then come the fuck on! You should know where your traps are!) and the psion maneuver guy (whom also may cause complains because he's going the barbarian at some point without previous agreement).
Conversely it's pretty common to see clerics that just go "Heal wounds" "Turn undead" "Smitting light" and never buff the party, or cast sanctuary, or use a holy water grenade, and then the next turn "oops, can I change my previous action?".
So yeh, have the player study the manual first, or if the system allows it, go for a competent hybrid build. Turns should go faster.
>>45990575
This, this is a problem too, 6 seconds per round from a fighter is too short, it SHOULD be more complicated than that.
We have a polearm master and every turn he's like "I drop my glaive and kick it into the face of the two goblins in front of me, then I try to catch it on the rebound" followed by "I spin my glaive under my arm, around my neck and behind my back, finally finish by planting it in the ground next to me and gesture the enemies to come get some, defensive stance from tunnel fighter".For the kick thing our DM made him roll attack on disadvantage, and since he rolled one hit and one miss the DM ruled that he kicked his glaive off center, it hit one goblin in the face for 1d4 bludgeoning damage and landed off to the side, so now he has to go get it.
>>45987817
Haven't you ever run into the autismogamist types who have a pre-set casting routine they almost always use invariably?
This is probably the right thread, we're starting a new D&D campaign, all playing as low level vampiric descendants in a fantasy world with the equivalent technology of the thirty years war.
So I decided to play as the wizard, and to go for a half species, and I chose half spider.
So I'm a fucking half spider, half vampiric human lowbreed, living on the outskirts of society in a cave somewhere. And now I'm the wizard too.
What a fucking character! anyway, I was thinking about going for a stealthy 'weakener' type wizard, hiding and draining things of strength making things sleep so I can feed on them. Any advice for someone who's never played a wizard before? I've played high level clerics many times, from level 1 through to level 18 ish, but never a wizard.
We're starting at level 1, but being vampiric makes us ECL 4. It gives us a ton of stat and skill boosts and resistances, but we get weakened in sunlight, water will kill us, and we have to feed on something every 72 hours to survive.
Here's my level 1 half-spider vampire wizard:
STR 12
DEX 16
CON - (count as undead)
INT 17
WIS 10
CHA 14
Fort save: +4, Reflex: +7, Will +6.
My best skills are: Move silently (+13) and Hide (+9), with 4 to 6 ranks in climb, concentration, search, spot, and diplomacy. Also have a +8 Listen.
18 HP, AC 15. regenerate 1 HP per round. Resistance 20 vs Cold and Electricity, Damage Reduction 5 / silver.
pic partially related even though I dont usually save nor post anime images. My character is a male.
>>45987817
sounds like you've played with some very dull wizards. The one's I've played with tend to have a million different spells, all for different situations, and all seeing regular use. Almost never casting fireballs, but things like edvards black tentacle or dominate person, or teleport.
I guess I call them "controllers" instead of offensive casters. Most of these controllers would still have a few magic missiles or acid arrows around though just in case.
>>46001430
Absolutely horrific!
It's called a Drider, play it.
>>45994512
Same issue. Playing a battlemaster fighter, I take ten to fifteen seconds to decide on my course of action for the turn generally including making use of environmental features though light on actual narration. He then proceeds to take ten seconds just unlocking his phone and opening his fucking spellbook app because the cunt refuses to write anything down or make an effort to remember them, then generally over a minute choosing his spell while the rest of the group sits silently because the DM forbids us to talk about tactical decisions OOC during combat, so we can't have any input to it and he takes forever to make up his own mind. He does usually make good choices, but at the speed of mud sliding uphill, and he'll forget a spell's effects before he's finished casting it.
Shit, the monk narrates his wuxia bullshit quicker than any caster I've ever seen plays, knows his features and he's probably only got half a degree of genetic separation from his father.
The only upside is people can get drinks or use the toilet without disrupting the game.
>>45991075
>Magic will always be more complicated to execute than narrating a sword-strike, in D&D, at least. Magic does weird status effects and damage for X,Y,Z caveats while the metal weapon will just "attack" unless the character has special abilities to consider (and even those typically don't have odd resistance rules or etc.).
Well, outside 4e where Sword can do the same amount of fancy stuff (And one class uses the magical power OF 'Sword')
>>45987716
prompt them step by step instead of leaving them to their own retardedly slow pace. Move? Attack? Weapon? Target? Roll. Hit/noHit. Roll. Damage. Eventually they'll get annoyed by it and endeavor to have their shit together before you can get around to asking. Unless they're autistic, socially inept, and/or suffer performance anxiety in which case they're incurable and you need to find a new group.
