/tg/ how do you deal with different species/civilizations levels?
In every single game I've ever played, or hosted its unavoidable that the player starting zone is roughly the same level as the party. And naturally big-bads or tougher opponents will be found at some extreme of the World, or a very deep dungeon or etc..
But this has never made sense to me, surely if these countries or species were literally statistically far superior to another species wouldn't that species be dominant?
So /tg/ how would you go about justifying leveled zones?
They aren't. The big dogs fight the big dogs of the area, and the small fry fight the small fry of the area.
>>45699876
>But this has never made sense to me, surely if these countries or species were literally statistically far superior to another species wouldn't that species be dominant?
You know how there are swarms of ants that can, between poison bites and sheer numbers, take down elephants?
It's the same thing. For every max level badass there's likely a million or more dudes with access to fire, poison, artillery and more. Skirmish level combat rules collapse in the face of those numbers unless you're a painfully autistic RAWfag about everything in your game to the point where game law violates common sense.
>>45699876
>big-bads
Help me to understand this.
It's more effort than typing out villain, sounds dumb, and is just as unspecific if not moreso.
because throughout the ages the lower leveled zones have slowly tempered heroes that could sequentially go through the darker and more unforgiving places of the world
these heroes are the only things holding the hordes of darkness back, and the monarchy knows this so they secretly breed the weaker creatures for the rising heroes to fight and kill
>>45699949
Well from a magical perspective it doesn't matter how many arrows you have.
Not even that high level magicians can throw fireballs that'll instant kill any low level NPC in a 60ft + X radius, and thats only one example.
Some species can naturally do this from almost birth, and it won't be 1 v 1,000,000, the provisions would be impossible and its stupid for both parties.
It'd be 1,000~ of one species marauding and destroying whatever Army comes to challenge them, and if they hold up in castles the same effect is applied but worse.
>>45699970
Villain = local bandit chief or low-level leftanent.
Big-bad = Lich or demi-God, etc..
>>45699982
Well this just assumes that only one force has access to this magic at this point.
You get a small army of murderdragons out to fuck up the Kingdom of Humania and they just send scouting teams to fuck up the communication lines, infiltrate their dragon cults to sew sedition and betrayal and use groups of magi and clerics of Bob the Dragonfucker to prepare a small but specialized force designed exclusively for handling these threats. And let's not forget how much food it would take to keep big monsters fed; more than a few of them means they all starve, so they aren't going to overpopulate without murdering themselves back to balance.
The arms race continues.
The 'weaker' creatures can respond to powerful threats with numbers. A frost giant might be worth, say, 10 human warriors, but if the giants were to infringe on human territory, the humans would be able to muster enough horseback archers or whatever to drive them off. Since adventurers travelling through the contested lands probably don't have access to armies, they're much more at the mercy of powerful creatures.
>>45700034
Doesn't have to be monsters or anything like that. Humanoid naturally occurring species that breed at the relatively same rate as Humans, live longer, are more agile and statistically better in every fashion.
All of that assuming the enemy does absolutely nothing whatever to defend itself.
>>45700040
Well that would make sense if every species was a single unified body and for some bizarre reason all species had the same understanding of magic, technology and etc.. But that wasn't always the case, at some point in the past (World's don't just begin with castles everywhere). One species would either by universally dominant for all of existence unless something cataclysmic happens, or would be so regionally dominant that they're held back by the entire World in unison.
>>45700040
There's also logistical concerns. Giants' extreme caloric needs might mean they can't stray far from the the megafauna of their territories without an absurd baggage train, otherwise they'd spend the entire time foraging while slowly starving.
Or vampires might be terribly powerful, but they might not be a military threat unless they figure out some way to block out the sun.
>>45700040
The thing is, mechanically, a well equiped frost giant(or hell a well equiped human) and decimate an entire army of level 1 warriors without much injury.
In these games it's better to have 1 guy equipped with 100,000 gold worth of gear. Than 1000 guys equipped with 200 gold worth of gear each.
>>45700137
This is kind of the point of my thread.
The mechanics are not separate from the World at large.
Its why a single Lich in the first place is such a danger, even if they're not chaotic or evil.
>>45700075
>Humanoid naturally occurring species that breed at the relatively same rate as Humans, live longer, are more agile and statistically better in every fashion.
When the fuck does this ever happen.
>>45700075
>Well that would make sense if every species was a single unified body and for some bizarre reason all species had the same understanding of magic, technology and etc.. But that wasn't always the case, at some point in the past (World's don't just begin with castles everywhere). One species would either by universally dominant for all of existence unless something cataclysmic happens, or would be so regionally dominant that they're held back by the entire World in unison.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. The world is a big enough place for things to evolve and advance in relative isolation, only to start bumping up against one another later.
Also, cataclysmic things happen IRL (megavolcanoes, ice ages, plagues) and in fantasy all the time. And 'a dark force that the whole world must keep in check' is common enough fantasy trope.
>>45700137
see the following sentence in
>>45699949
>Skirmish level combat rules collapse in the face of those numbers unless you're a painfully autistic RAWfag about everything in your game to the point where game law violates common sense.
Most RPG mechanics were not designed with army-scale combat in mind, and are designed to give a rough sense of balance for squad level combat. Using them for a 1,000:1 battle is like trying to build a functioning aircraft carrier by only using hand tools.
>>45699996
You know that's not how it works. Why are you pretending that.
>>45699970
>>45700238
because people used to say bbeg "big bad evil guy" because while a story can have many villains, they usually only have one final boss type character
over time people just shortened it to big bad because in spoken word "big bad" is easier to say than "big bad evil guy"
and bbeg takes less effort than villain
>>45700168
Yes but when these no-longer isolated groups come into contact one would be the winner. Yet every game has a convenient stalemate. Like.
>Human kingdom
>Elf kingdom
etc..
>cataclysmic things happen IRL
Which is never explained or justified, the World is made first, then the history is imposed on it, which normally makes zero sense.
>>45700160
>When the fuck does this ever happen.
I'll use PF as an example because its able to be seen by everyone.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lizardfolk
>lizardfolk
Stats are better or the same a Humans aside from INT which is -1. So its ridiculous to assume they'll stay perpetually tribal and retarded when Humans have castles and etc.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/gnoll
>gnoll
Same thing with Lizardmen aside from -2 INT and -2 CHA. They'd take more time than Lizardmen to 'civilize' but that is still well within the realms of reality, they also breed significantly more than Humans and are obviously carnivores, meaning they'd be more than willing to hunt down low-tech Humans.
Which is the whole problem, castles didn't magically appear neither did animal husbandry.
Why didn't the Gnolls completely or have a good-crack-at enslaving or beating Humans? They should at least be a dominant faction thats for sure.
>>45700238
What he said
>>45700274
>>45700321
>two carnivorous races
thats a good reason why, one of the biggest reasons for humans spread was the fact that we're omnivorous and could farm for staple food
>>45699876
I always liked the concept of Law vs Chaos from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (which is where the idea in D&D came from, via Moorcock).
Basically it's the same as other people in this thread have said: Law is civilisation. It's human religion and people working together to build roads and farms and towns. People cut down the forest and drive out the things lurking there with fire and steel. Sure, your average farmer would be easily eaten by a troll. But when a troll encroaches on the lands of men they band together to fight it off.
Chaos is the things in the deep forest. Spirits and fey that are antithetical to civilisation. Individually they are powerful but they don't work together (That's far too civilised).
Actually, you know what? Just watch Princess Monoke. That's probably my ideal D&D setting in terms of wilderness vs civilisation.
>>45700374
But its also a perfect reason for both to follow wherever the Humans went. And they'd have superior numbers and better stats.
>>45700321
>require hunting to survive
>even if they developed livestock, they lack an understanding of plant life needed to grow proper crops to feed that livestock
>low numbers due to humans expanding first and taking all the good land
>predatory mentality and luddism-filled cultural attitudes born from their failure to compete with humanoids means civilization is stagnant
Because their stat bonuses are the only thing keeping them from extinction.
>>45700398
>superior numbers
Lolwat.
>>45700428
Predators don't allow their prey to be strong or have land.
Back when Humans didn't have animal husbandry you know as well as I do they'd be hunted to the ends of the Earth, the only successful Humans would be those living in places where Gnolls couldn't survive, like deserts.
>>45700448
In a state of nature (with cities and castles), Gnolls have more numbers, they breed faster but have shorter life spans.
>>45700473
*without
>>45700473
>Back when Humans didn't have animal husbandry you know as well as I do they'd be hunted to the ends of the Earth, the only successful Humans would be those living in places where Gnolls couldn't survive, like deserts.
I'm sure if I showed you the stats of the Neanderthal and the Cro Magnon you'd say the same thing, since stat-wise that's the same as your Gnoll:Human comparison.
But we all know how that went, don't we.
>>45700558
And yet that example has a justified reason.
Most fantasy games do not.
Which is the whole point of this thread.
>>45700473
you'd just have to think that humans made bows while the gnolls and whatnot didnt, then since they were able to defend their lands with superior firepower, they created animal husbandry which allowed for horse archers and even more superior firepower
>>45699876
Fallout NV and 4 (to a lesser degree) do a good job of saying "here there be dragons, but go fuck with them if you want".
ie the cazadores and deathclaws right outside good springs
A real world example is to look at the balance of power through history. At various points, certain nations or regions ARE dominant, such as Rome, Britain, the USA, etc.
There doesn't need to necessarily be a stat difference unless you're comparing a well fed first world citizen to a NorK, or someone with access to healthcare as opposed to a Nigerian villager ravaged by Ebola.
>>45700595
That sounds awfully circumstantial and would only apply to locales where the conditions are right, but I buy it.
But, Gnolls have a STR of 15, 50% better than the average Human, its fair to say that bows would never be developed as each time they attempted it Gnolls could throw further than an early bow could, or at least comparable distances.
>>45700321
>stats are the same as a human or better
That stat block is slightly misleading. In PF, level 1 humanoids are not given 10s across the board for their stats (modified by racials), they have 13/12/11/10/9/8.
If you look at the Drow, they note that Drow get +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, yet the listed stats include 15 Dex, 10 Con, 9 Wis, and 10 Cha.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/drow-common
Thus, the Lizardfolk's actual racial modifiers are likely +2 Dex, +2 Con. Which fits with Lizardfolk, since they are one of the few monster races who are NOT mentally deficient in some way. Those are stronger slightly than player races, but not abnormally so.
>>45700742
Ah, thanks for clearing that up, it'll help my PF games in the future.
Though I guess I'd rather take dex than str in a survival state.
>>45700274
If a story has The Villain, it's pretty obvious what's being talked about.
More importantly, you pretend that people use BBEG to refer to the final boss, but most just use it interchangeably with villain. You're trying to force a definition that people just don't use. Hell, OP even used big-bads.
Also, you sound retarded.
>>45699876
Well you can make complex level designs if you can trust your players not to do something stupid, like attacking the Guard Captain for his gear, or the bandit with the highest bounty.
As for zones, it can be in a lowly poulated area, where the big shots wouldn't have much reason to go.
Like the edge of the forest, where the fearsome desert raiders do not go because the riding lizards can't stand the climate.
>>45699876
Species would be limited to geography and biomes - good luck seeing an abominable snowman fucking around in a desert.
In regards to civilizations, it depends, but the easiest answer is again geographic - huge ass mountains, vast deserts, and swathes of jungles rife with awful diseases all provide excellent barriers to anything more than intermittent contact.
>>45700742
>Those are stronger slightly than player races, but not abnormally so.
Lizardmen in Pathfinder are actually kinda crap compared to the CRB races(which are legit some of the strongest races in the game unitl you get to Aasimer and obscure shit like Drow Nobles and Samasara).
A Lizardman is pretty much a Dual Talented human with a claw attack.
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/lizardfolk-8-rp
They're a +2 STR, +2 Con race with a bit of swim speed and some natural attacks.
>>45703359
Not to mention resources. Poorer regions house poorer and sometimes weaker civilizations, because no one else would be willing to live there.
The day to day workings of a civilization is important. Like dwarves do all sorts of mechanical industries, so they live where these minerals can be found.
