So mtg changing how MADNESS works mechanically?
No. The exiling-before-decision is how it always had worked; they decided to clarify it.
>>45572871
You can't read? It does exaxtly what it says.
When you discard it, the madness ability triggers. You exile it to choose to pay alternative cost. If you don't it goes into graveyard... Like it says in the card.
>>45572908
Oh, actually it's me who can't read. Interesting how irony works. My bad.
Reminder text is not rules text, and it often leaves out details they don't expect to matter very often in order to make it easier to understand. So, reminder text being different doesn't actually mean anything.
>>45572871
It'sstill more or less the same but now it just gets temporarily exiled as you decide to pay the madness cost or not, this way the card can't be removed from the graveyard in response to the madness trigger.
>>45575105
it's exactly the same as it always has been, they've just updated the reminder text to more accurately reflect what's going on.
>>45576589
I thought that prior to it Madness had you discard the card normally to the graveyard then madness trigger would ocurr and let you cast the card? So when you discard a card with madness and its trigger happens it's temporarily discarded to the exile zone as you decide whether to cast it or not before it goes to the graveyard. I presume it was done this way as a result of particular cards like Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage that would completely hose certain cards with Madness on it because you would normally discard it straight to the graveyard before.
>>45576815
Madness always exiled the card before you could cast it. The change to the reminder text is presumably so no-one gets upset when their Madness spell gets rules-countered by an Eldrazi processor without knowing what happened.
>>45577161
The spell is still played. Upon resolution, it is put into the graveyard add normal because there is no rules to exile after it is played.
See Suspend fit similar rules.
702.34. Madness
702.34a Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with madness is in a player’s hand. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. “Madness [cost]” means “If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may exile it instead of putting it into his or her graveyard” and “When this card is exiled this way, its owner may cast it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn’t, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard.”
702.34b Casting a spell using its madness ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
That's directly from the Comprehensive Rules. The new reminder text is an attempt to condense that down so it can fit on commons.
So how long does the madness card stay in the exile zone for you to play it then???
This is some poorly worded dogshit
>>45577951
are you retarded?
>>45577951
>So how long does the madness card stay in the exile zone for you to play it then???
I don't know how to make this simpler. >>45577836 already answered your question as written. Could you elaborate?
>>45577951
8 seconds, ignore priority and other ever-present game rules. They want reflexes to matter in graveyard based sets.
>>45579751
Mtg has turned into Jungle Speed, fuck
>>45577836
from what i understand, if a spell exiled with madness is processed before the cast trigger resolves, you would still be able to cast it from the graveyard when the ability resolves?
it seems a little different from Miracle here but if someone could confirm that would be nice
>>45581337
I don't see why it could be cast if it got put into the graveyard? It's a different entity isn't it?
>>45577951
>how long
Until both players pass priority?
>>45581726
yes you're right, that's why you can't cast it if it's processed
changing zones makes it a new object
thank you
>>45581906
why does this seem incredibly sarcastic
>changing zones makes it a new object
Sounds so absurd outside of Magic
If this had been anything but Magic I'd probably think you were mocking my idiocy
>>45582032
but in this case i'm sincerely thanking you for pointing out what should have been obvious to me
>>45582166sage for noncontribution
The reminder text doesn't say anything about exiling. The way it's worded makes it sound like you can just decide to cast it for R with no downside.
I'm gonna echo >>45577951 sentiments. Poorly worded dogshit. The reminder text should end with "If you do, exile it afterward".
>>45582519
but thats not what it does
>>45582519
>cannot into context
Madness exiles because it's easier to cast something from exile due to a triggered ability than it is to cast something during a time that could be during the payment of a cost or the resolution of an effect and have no difference in functionality. The old wording just hid all of this away so that players could grok it easier.
Anon was responding to the comprehensive rules explaining the functionality as if he believed that MtG rules had a concept of time and hilarity ensued.
>>45582519
But the spell isn't exiled afterwards. It's put into your grave. It's only exiled during casting like >>45582684 said.
>>45582519
It doesn't exile after casting though?
>>45583017
GRRRRRRR THAT IS SUCH POORLY WRITTEN DOGSHIT
wait I didn't read it lol
I have no idea how people are finding madness this hard.
>You discard a card with madness
>It gets exiled because madness
>If you don't cast it, it goes to the graveyard
>If you do, it goes on the stack, resolves normally, then goes to the graveyard. Nothing new here.
The end result is it goes to the graveyard, whether or not it did something or even got processed or what have you. This is the same as it has always been, how is this complicated?
>>45583713
I think it's because Flashback is the standard "cast from the graveyard" function and the way Madness was explained before is sort of the way that Flashback works.
>>45583713
>how is this complicated
Everything is complicated in Magic to the vast majority of players because they never learned how the game rules work on the most basic level. Anytime they did something wrong people just corrected them and didn't explain the reason why the rules work like that and players are just too fucking unmotivated and/or lazy to look up how the rules work.
So when they're presented with a new situation they don't have the basic skills to work out how it works. Nobody actually understands how turn steps/phases, how the stack works, how to put something on the stack, priority, the difference between cards, permanents, and spells or the difference between triggered and activated abilities, or how layers work. They know that 4*8=32 but they don't know it means four groups of eight totals up to 32.
The amount of ignorance in this game is fucking staggering, which in itself is disturbing given that new sets contain mechanics that are the least complicated shit in the history of the game. You know what was the biggest casualty when combat damage no longer used the stack - it was forcing players to learn how the fucking stack and priority worked.
>>45584014
I could forgive most players for not understanding layers in detail, but most of the other things I see them get wrong are inexcusable.
>>45583713
Note that you're not exiling it from your hand, you're discarding it into exile. That way other things that trigger on discard still trigger.
ITT: The reason MaRo put Madness at 8 on the storm scale.
>>45584089
I don't fucking understand after some two and a half decades of this game the "free mulligan" still is a thing that exists among new players. It's like Polio, we should have annihilated it years ago except some fucking useless old players have allowed it to persist.
And it IS the old players. I tracked it down. I ask these new players where the fuck they learned such a shitty interpretation of the rules from and I traced it down to deadbeats who have been playing this game since Unlimited who introduced their friends to their friends to the game.
And I can't even blame Wizards for that. They put a fucking lot of effort into giving out rules books and free how-to-play guides that NOBODY reads.
>>45584014
As somebody who had read the comprehensive rules back and forth and reads obfuscated code as a hobby, I welcome a less complex game. I've played with people who were on the pro tour and they still had to look up the rules from time to time. Bringing player focus to the gameplay from the mechanics is a good thing.
That said, the reason that so many people don't fully understand magic is because magic is essentially code, like a scripting language on a computer. A lot of things in magic are done to make the "code" work in an elegant way. This makes managing the rules a much easier task, but it alienates people that have difficulty understanding structures and algorithms, which is a huge segment of the population, even among intelligent people.
>>45584194
The average person is not interested in applying effort to anything if an easy option exists.
Concerning the free mulligan houserule specifically, people who do not play competitively are awful at knowing when to mulligan, but if it's free there is no decision to make because there is no downside.
>>45584279
And yeah, this. A lot of people struggle to deal with the fact that the rules of magic are written in what is essentially an artificial language which resembles english for readability.
If you have a STEM background you will probably not struggle with this much even if you aren't the sort of person who does obscure things with life and limb for fun, but if you don't it may be an uphill battle.
>>45584279
I didn't clearly express the focus of my irritation.
My problem is that there is no culture of self-improvement so far as learning how to get better at the game mechanically. The focus of self-improvement is all in the gameplay and I feel that so much focus on that area leads to a lot of the degenerate behavior in the game because it drives players to "improve" by getting better and better cards instead of meaningful improvements, which I feel are seeing and understanding lines of play that can only be found when there is an understanding of the mechanics. And more often than not, when I execute those sorts of plays I am met with confusion because my opponent does not understand what I just did because they don't understand how steps and phases work or how priority is passed. And while I am happy to educate them, sometimes they just accept it and don't learn anything, feel salty about it, or worse, think I've angle shot them.
I'll admit that a gameplay focused culture of self-improvement is best for the game. I can't argue that, playing the game is great. I just want players to have a better understanding as to why they're winning or losing than taking the easy line of thinking and saying shit like "I/they got mana screwed" or "they have better cards" when it was actual mechanical ignorance that led to their victory or loss.
Like, how hard is it to learn that mana leaves your pool between steps and phases. Or that there's priority passed between First Strike and normal combat damage.
>>45572871
Jinkies!
>>45584703
This problem shouldn't affect you if your FLGS has a judge and a few competent players. You should only have to explain to somebody how mana works at the first round. Explain it to your friends. If they don't want to know that's fine too. If they demand and explanation and don't want yours, inject them with ricin when they turn their back. It shouldn't be a huge burden on you.
>>45579751
We Yu-gi-oh! now
>>45577240
Close, but not quite.
Madness is two abilities: the first is a static ability, but the ability that lets you actually cast the card is a triggered ability. Meaning it goes on the stack and can be responded to just like any other.
So you can respond to the madness ability by activating another ability that moves the card from exile to graveyard, and then the madness ability won't function.
>>45583435
Players are retarded, Wizards is clearly their soulmate.
>>45582519
You CAN just cast it for R with no downside, that's the fucking point you massive cockbreathing mouthsucker.
>>45584279
If you can't do basic logical structures, you can't understand this sentence.
>>45584111
>maro
>storm scale.
link to storm scale please
I need to fuel my rage
>>45577951
Until you can cast it. If a single effect would make you discard cards as part of its resolution you can't actually cast any Madness cards you discard to it until it's done resolving.
So a card that said
>each player discards a card, then sacrifices a creature
would have you discard your Fiery Temper, you place it in exile as part of the Madness ability, then sacrifice a creature, and then you get a chance to cast Fiery Temper for its Madness cost.
>>45590722
Just Google that shit. Maro only gives values on his blog when people ask, and it rarely means anything as he ignores what he knows about future blocks when assigning them.
Since we included Ichor Slick in our Judge Tower everyone learned how madness works. :^)
>>45591709
>5 and above are either joke mechanics, harmless, or underpowered
>Untap symbol
>Threshold
>Suspend
>Flanking
>Ninjutsu
>Changlings
God If I go digging for his reasoning I will lose my mind just trying to interpret it out of his double talk
>Fractional Numbers
>Gotcha
is he an idiot? these are joke mechanics from joke sets. is he implying we will never have joke sets again? ;.;
Its almost like he has no idea what magic the gathering is
>>45591709
>purple
THATS LITERALY THE FUCKING ANUS MANA SYMBOL COST REQUIREMENT AND "WASTE" BASIC LAND
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>45591709
>proliferate
>infect
>definitely see again
he is literal cancer
>>45591918
>5 and above are either joke mechanics, harmless, or underpowered
What? That's not how it works at all
>sit down at a modern event or a draft
>people around me constantly blowing large obnoxious clouds in my face with their dumb fucking vapes
>every single time I try to do magic the people in my shop are fucking vaping
>"it's just water vapor bro stop being so annoying about it"
ITS NOT JUST WATER VAPOR IF IT HAS AN ODOR AND GIVES ME A HEADACHE SO STOP FUCKING BLOWING IT IN MY FUCKING FACE YOU AUTISTIC FUCKHEADS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>45591986
lol
>>45591981
besides phyrexian mana, and storm, what doesn't fit my generalization?
banding hasn't even been around for a fucking decade
>>45591960
I understand that a lot of people dislike infect but what the hell could make you dislike proliferate?
>>45592065
can add to EVERY counter set on the board
including fucking "I win" cards formerly known as Planes-walkers
its what Populate should have been
>>45591986
Get a glass of water, dip your fingers in it and flick it at them. Then when they complain, tell them its just water.
>>45592055
The storm scale isn't a power ranking.
>>45592174
I know
I can read the left side of the scale
>>45592135
I fail to see how that makes it a bad mechanic and not a good one
>including fucking "I win" cards formerly known as Planes-walkers
that interaction is not even close to being too good in either competitive or casual magic
>>45591918
>If I go digging for his reasoning I will lose my mind
His reasoning is really simple for all of those. New and casual players didn't understand them.
>is he implying we will never have joke sets again?
A third un-set is very unlikely. He has said so often.
>>45592185
considering its conjunction with infect, i don't know why you needed more reasons
>>45591935
Yes?
>>45592195
How bad at magic are you? proliferate is awful in infect, even kitchen table, it's one of the slowest possible ways to kill someone with infect
>>45591709
It amuses me that Flashback is listed twice.
>>45592324
Several things are because people have asked several times, either because they missed the answer the first time or because they want to know if Maro's opinion has changed since last time.
>>45572892
Why is this necessary for Madness ?
>>45572871
Return to Theros features a new keyword for Iroas cards, which exiles discarded cards
>MADNESS? THIS IS IROAS!
>>45592195
Most of us aren't as shit at Magic as you, Anon.
Even in EDH it's a trashcan strategy for trashcan game groups.
>>45593624
Because you can't cast a card Madness until the ability that made you discard it has finished resolving.
>>45591935
It's really not.
>>45584703
I once built a deck that exploited Oblivion Ring's triggers to permanently exile things. I had to stop playing it because I was tired of having to explain it to every single person I played and having to look up rulings to prove it worked. The number of players who actually understand how the stack works is disappointingly low.
Maybe it would help if Wizards would actually acknowledge that "the stack" is a thing that exists, on cards.
>>45594266
I would have thought that ring bouncing would be common knowledge by now, is it really that bad?
>>45579751
>8 seconds
suddenly MtG becomes an hilarious game to play
>>45591986
Same here but people vape weed while playing at small tournaments, it spoils my focus during matches.
>>45591986
If you can conclusively say they're blowing it on you specifically, get a judge. It can easily get spun as Aggressive Behavior and their ass is out the door.
>>45594788
Not him, but it really is that bad. People kept assuming it was two linked actions (if the duration ends before it would begin, it never starts) when it wasn't, which led to wizards changing those kinds of cards into BEING linked actions. It's the same reason hexproof has replaced shroud, because so many people didn't realize that shroud prevented YOU from targeting it as well.
Another common fuck-up about O-Ring is that yes it can exile emrakul, despite "protection from colored spells". When ring triggers, it's off the stack. means it's no longer a spell.
>>45595666
WOTC printing Banishing Light (and similar linked effects) has made it worse, if anything.
>>45595666
That sounds pretty terrible. Not having to deal with stuff like that is one of the upsides to playing online.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HGP0hGxM2awJ:archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx%3Fx%3Dmtgcom/feature/7+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
As intuitive as Madness is, it is a proper fine clusterfuck in terms of how the game has to implement it so as to achieve the target design ("...to create an ability that would let you play a card whenever you discard it, allowed the spell to be countered, and didn’t let your opponent "mess" with the card you were going to play.")
>>45595879
Yeah, but you wouldnt believe the number of times people have tried to destroy my Oblivion Rings in response to the ETB trigger online.
