WHY ARE WIZARDS SUCH BROKEN FUCKING BULLSHIT.
IN ANY GODDAMN D&D ROUND WITH MY AUTISTIC FRIENDS THERE IS THIS ONE ULTRA-AUTISTIC FAGGOT WHO ABUSES WIZARD BULLSHIT EVERY SINGLE TIME.
AS GM I LITERALLY HAVE TO CRIPPLE HIM WITH SOME STUPID MADEUP BULLSHIT I PULL OUT OF MY ASS EVERY SINGLE GAME SO HE WON'T JUST SOLO EVERY ADVENTURE
>>45564328
have you considered not sucking?
Abuse how?
Is he finding a way to break the mechanics of the game so that he can do something in a strange way to contribute?
Or is he lawyering so hard that he should open his own firm?
>>45564355
/thread
>>45564328
Stop being a three-aboo. It's your fault.
Have you tried not playing DnD?
1. let everyone play wizard bullshit, treat it like pseudo-Exalted with OP heroes facing OP threats
2. ban tier 1 and 2 classes you fucking pussy
3. stop playing 3.PF
pick any
>be gm
>let players choose system
meme.extension
>>45564362
>Or is he lawyering so hard that he should open his own firm?
exactly this. He challenges me on every single decision and is super anal about magic in D&D. All my other friends play the game for the roleplaying aspect so even though they are aware of the rules they don't have a lot of in-depth knowledge. I usually run campaigns with them that are more in the "medium" difficulty range because I want everyone to have fun. If I'd tune up the difficulty of enemies and punish them more for mistakes the wizard-fag would obviously not be as strong anymore because his autistic bullshit would actually be necessary to survive. But it wouldn't be fun for the rest of the group if they are constantly wiping because they forgot that rolling a critical failure on an ogre with a spiked maze means that you are either pretty dead or likely permanently and terribly crippled for the rest of the game.
>>45564392
what are some good alternatives where martials/magic users are balanced appropriately?
>>45564495
DnD 4.0
>>45564495
Even D&D 5E is significantly more balanced in that regard.
>>45564516
>4.0
>good
>>45564516
>4.0
>>45564328
Stop playing 3.5e or Pathfinder.
/thread
>>45564469
Have you considered talking to him about this? If you have and he won't cooperate, have you considered not inviting him back?
>>45564469
>All my other friends play the game for the roleplaying aspect
So tell autism wizard that his play style isn't a good fit and since he's odd man out he has to get out. Needs of the many, etc.
It isn't necessarily wizards, OP. That kind of person will abuse any class they play. A friend of mine rules-lawyered his bard all the damn time until he could one-shot pretty much anything within reason I could throw at him. I complained and he moved to barbarian, and now he does the exact same thing there.
Nip this problem at the bud and get rid of the player before you invest any more time in the campaign.
>>45564683
wait a minute that meme
>nearly an entire party who actually plays to roleplay
Fuck the odd guy out but please cherish the rest of that group.
>>45564495
If you're not willing to change systems, the best way to balance 3.5 is to ban the PHB classes.
I'm serious.
>>45564686
>come up with cool convoluted scenario that the party can use to defeat an enemy and get his loot from his special loot table if they paid attention to the hints that I left for them throughout the campaign
>before party could discuss their approach autistic wizard just dominates monster and makes it kill itself
I was mad
>>45564328
Sounds like you're playing one of the many iterations of 3e. That is how that game works. It's actually why people like it. I don't understand it either.
>>45564495
Any edition of D&D that isn't 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder.
And if you're gonna house rule AD&D to be more like 3.5e (such as throwing out the different XP tables or ignoring racial restrictions) then not those either.
If you like the theatre of the mind style play where a lot of your power comes from your character build, i suggest 5e - it plays mostly like a toned-down and less broken 3.5e where more cool shit is allowed instead of specifically tied to feats or class features.
If your group just wants to play a beer & pretzels game where you mostly just kill monsters, then i heartily recommend Old School Hack, if you're willing to play the game old school style (there's a guide around here somewhere for how to do that.)
You could also play something like 13th Age, which is reasonably well-designed and experiments with elements from various different D&D eras. Like Old School Hack, it also has a more"gamey" focus, but it does a better job of mixing that in with the narrative than most games of the type, and 13th Age has no old school sensibilities whatsoever so you don't have to learn anything to play it, coming from 3.5e or Pathfinder.
At entirely the other end of the spectrum is something like Dungeon World, which is heavily narrative-driven and tones down other elements while still delivering a decidedly D&D feel with fun gameplay that really rewards describing your actions, and doesn't have the usual "disconnect" between fluff and mechanics.
It's extremely difficult to play it right, however, because it all hinges on understanding some difficult-to-grasp inversions of the usual styles of play and a completely alien, and very particular, way to approach DMing. You can very easily DM it wrong and then it's shit.
But if you don't mind doing your research, it's an extremely well put-together game and responds well to house-ruling IF you've actually gone the extra mile and learned how the game "thinks."
If you're impatient, I recommend you avoid it.
>>45564328
Edit the spell he uses to break things. It's your world, after all. Typing in all caps on an image board about the problem will net you "10/10 bait", "have you tried not playing DND?" Or "qq moar". If this situation is fake, why didn't you post a lewd angry girl instead?
>>45564597
this. given that kind of behavior this player is a prime candidate for 'thanks, but fuck off'. As a GM constant rules-lawyering bull is one of the top things on my list of crap I will not tolerate from my players, if only because of how it can drag a game to a crawl.
>>45564495
Earthdawn
Any edition of D&D that isn't based on 3e.
>>45565094
"Have you tried not playing 3.5e or Pathfinder" is literally the answer to his question though.
>>45564792
This is actually really good advice. The overpowered caster classes are all from the player's handbook, as are most of the "trap" melee classes that don't contribute meaningfully to most encounters. By banning the wizard for example, you force players to use a class that can't automatically do everything. Beguilers and warmages and warlocks all have the arcane feel but also have clear-cut roles and are generally more on par with other classes. Meanwhile, telling your barbarian to switch to a warblade or psychic warrior will open up tons of options aside from "rage, charge, power attack" that will make him useful in many more situations, both in-combat and out.
One of these days I'm going to run an open game advertised as "heavily houseruled 3.5" and when players show up I will run 4e. Someday.
Make everyone a mage. We MtA now.
>>45565576
Warmages have nigh to no utility. It's an extremely binary class.
>>45565673
Won't work. Even if you don't show them the power cards, the moment a fighter is allowed to move AND attack properly during the same turn they're all going to go "WAIT WHAT SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT HERE A MARTIAL CHARACTER WITH MOBILITY SKRREEEEEEEEEE!!!"
>>45565745
Monks have nigh to no utility. It's an extremely binary class.
Barbarians have nigh to no utility. It's an extremely binary class.
Rogues have nigh to no utility. It's an extremely binary class.
Rangers have nigh to no utility. It's an extremely binary class.
(Not wizard, druid, cleric or sorcerer) have nigh to no utility. It's an extremely binary class.
That's what you sound like
>>45565757
I won't actually, it's mainly a joke about Just Houserule It Crew. Though maybe someone should do it and post results.
>>45565757
It is like you have never used one of the fighter variants from all over the net.
>>45565803
I once did satiric "power cards" with a 3.5e fighter's core options on it. I thought it was pretty lulzy but I don't have them around anymore.
>>45565795
Lol what? Rogues have utility. They are just shitty for many other reasons.
>>45565828
It's one of those jokes where actually playing the joke out from start to finish is not required.
>>45564569
Ok is that some kind of porn parody of that one ukrainian official, or is that real footage? Because she looks she's climaxing in the middle of a serious interview.
>>45565859
They don't have Knock or Dimension Door or Wish, that's for sure.
>>45564818
>makes it kill itself
How uninspired.
Anyways you should always take these "save throw or get fucked" spells in mind, this was your own fault.
>>45565950
yeah, but they don't require any preparation for the utility they do have which isn't all too shabby.
>>45564495
literally any system other than 3.x
>>45565969
>Anyways you should always take these "save throw or get fucked" spells in mind, this was your own fault.
how would OP deal with that? Just make the monster enchant immune? Does that not usually require the GM to come up with a justification like a curse or artifact unless the Monster has inherent magical capabilities which is kind of shit if you want to force a melee brute fight?
>>45564328
Are they? I and a few of my friends are just getting into D&D. We are thinking of trying to start a game soon, and I've secretely worried over them not having fun because they might feel powerless. I thought that a mageslayer feat rogue assasin would be the answer?
>>45566136
He's talking about 3.5e or Pathfinder, probably. Wizards in 5e aren't so overpowered as to overshadow everyone (except for at really high levels, but that might as well be a different game for how often it comes up). They still need help in combat and are best when combined with a strong melee fighter or two with their buffing and debuffing shenanigans.
>>45565995
It's severely overrated in 3.5e class design.
It has almost zero value. The party generally waits for the wizard or does something else useful with their time, and the caster tends to just prepare a huge array of "potentially useful things" for the day, and from that point on he can "cast from the hip" all he wants.
The rogue is a reasonably balanced class until the BAB system starts to really suck for them (which is somewhere around the point you gain double digit levels, unless you're in an encounter with something that has an unusually low AC) but the PHB casters aren't; You practically don't even need a rogue at all if you've got one, and you don't have to get very high in level before the "running out of spells" problem has zero bearing on utility.
And because it's a cooperative game, the group will know that if the caster starts running low they need to factor that into their tactics.
>>45564328
So tell him he isn't allowed to player a wizard or don't play with him anymore. This isn't that hard anon.
I love playing 3.5 and PF and it's not that hard to compensate for the power disparity if the party is working all together so if you aren't good enough then remove him if he's being a problem
>>45566136
stay away from magic in your first DnD campaign. If you are the GM you can come up with a fairly "easy" campaign and allow them to find powerful artifacts earlier on. As soon as they are hooked and understand the rules you can try to incorporate more bullshit that wizards are suited to deal with so some of them are motivated to switch to spell casters in your next game.
>>45565950
>what is a Wand of Knock or Scroll of Dimension Door
Rogues get a lot of skill points and Use Magic Device as a class skill.
By the time players can cast Wish, 3.5 has already broken down as a system.
>>45565810
>It's like you've never used one of those sketchy homebrew classes that weeaboos invent by the million
You're right. No shit.
>>45564495
Pathfinder with Psionic rules by Dreamscarred Press.
>>45566240
So a low-magic campaign would be better to start off with? I agree the magic rules seem daunting for us newbies.
>>45566236
Bitch in that gif looks really fucking annoying.
>>45566223
Mainly because high level 3.5e/PF wizards get to prepare loads of all of the "previous" spell levels of spells, and utility spells stay great even if they're not in your highest spell slot.
And even for things like Dispel which don't "stay great" as much as stuff like Knock or whatever, you've still got to ask the question; who the fuck else was going to do that job?
>>45565795
Barbarians have little utility, but many high utility prestige class options available to them, such as Runescarred Berserker, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Frenzied Berserker, and Bear Warrior.
Rogues have moderate utility through magic items and various moderate utility prestige classes, such as Assassin/Avenger, Unseen Seer, and Chameleon.
Monks have no utility.
Rangers have moderate utility that can be greatly improved with alternate class features and prestige classes into very fine utility overall. not tier 1, but easily upper tier 3.
>>45566284
yeah, it also forces you to be more creative with how you solve situations and become more familiar with the environment in which you are playing.
>>45566250
>"it's not unbalanced because you can do the same things by spending a practically infinite amount of gold pieces and get a few limited lower-power uses of the same effects!"
>I have literally not read the spell lists and understood what it means for gameplay that they contain useful utility spells at every spell level.
>>45564328
Have you tried not playingwith shitty people?
>>45566400
You're moving the goalposts. I never said rogues are tier 1 classes. I said rogues have utility.
>tfw I focus fire all spellcaster in any party when I' GM
>even with low-intelligence creatures that shouldn't even be able to focus fire
>>45566027
Exceedingly incorrect. There is plenty of imbalance in other systems too.
>>45566377
What classes would be good to limit to here? 1/3 casters only? Or is paladin, ranger, bard fine too?
>>45566461
Yeah, those are fine. Just avoid BATMAN classes.
>>45564495
Iron Kingdoms and 2nd Edition Warhammer Fantasy RP are both good in this regard.
>>45566351
And my point was that all of those classes are at a reasonable level of balance
a level of balance that they share with warmages.
Going "boo hoo they don't have wizard/cleric level utility so dey is sukk" is ridiculous.
I don't necessarily agree with the other anon that threeaboos (PF players included) that throwing out the PHB is the solution to all woes, but warmages are at a completely fine overall level of balance.
>>45566480
...? A chaotic good rogue/fighter with vehicle proficiency and noble background?
>>45566461
Paladins are pretty shit unless you let them have their few high powered prestige classes, but the rest are in a very fine area of "strong but can't solve every problem ever".
>>45565884
90% sure that's real footage
>>45566501
Warmages don't have the option of moving up in the world unlike those classes, though.
Well, unless they want to burn 10 levels on Rainbow Servant and become ultra-clerics. But that's a single, poorly-thought-out prestige.
>>45566461
Yeah it's really just PHB-style full caster classes like the Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid etc. that are the problem.
Although I'd also argue that the Fighter is a shitshow all of its own on the other end of the spectrum.
>>45566535
Oh man now I wanna play 5e. Paladins are so fucking crazy in 5e.
>>45566599
What about warlocks? Are they considered full casters?
>>45566656
Like it's been said before, we're talking about two different systems here. Warlocks weren't a PHB class in 3.5e, and magic in 5e is fine up until like 17th level.
>>45566628
They are, really. A mounted paladin smiting people with a lance is good fun. The fact that you can decide to smite after you've confirmed to hit is really great, since smiting is affected by crits.
>>45566656
Not him but I would say that warlocks were okay if you banned Chameleon or human/changling warlocks which remove that one loophole that made them better item creation monsters out there.
>>45564495
Suicide.
>>45564328
Wizards are supposed to learn spells through finding books/scrolls/mentors. Unless this has changed with newschool D&D I suggest you play the game the way it was designed to be played. A wizard shouldn't be able to get every spell he wants when he wants.
>>45566761
Too bad a wizard who knows the game (and Spell Compendium is permitted) can survive perfectly fine on their 2 spells/level.
>>45566685
>A mounted paladin smiting people with a lance is good fun
>mfw I discovered the Find Steed spell in the book after my DM killed my horse in the first session
>mfw I spent my level up to 5 taking the Mounted Combat combat feat and getting ready to get my steed
>mfw I finally get it
>mfw I get in a fight and tell him all the guards his setting against us have disadvantage against me because I'm mounted
>mfw making 3 attacks per turn and slaughtering everything in my path
also using a frost giant to represent my guy mounted because it's the only large miniature we have that looks vaguely human was fun
>>45564328
B-But martials have Spellcut now.
They're fixed now. Right?
>>45566301
She is.
Homebrew some shit. Here's my method.
>Spells per day are replaced by spells for adventure
>These spells are scrolls/one time use items which could be stolen, burned, used by party members other than the wizard, etc.
>All spells are scrolls/flavorful one time use items. Encourage wizards to describe and explain symbolism and mystical connections of their magic
Now before you Wizard boos start crying, hold up.
>Wizards can also bring minions, passive buffs, and limited magical equipment with them in replacement of regular spells.
This system requires some work, but makes Wizards both more and less limited in the right way, encourages flavor and fluff, and makes Wizards actually think and play like Wizards.
>>45564328
Stop playing DnD
>>45565884
I think it's real but looks like it's in reverse
I'm lazy and on mobile, can someone get me that gif played backwards?
>>45567093
That really doesn't do much. Because I could go and play pathfinder.
>>45568184
Or end up allowing all splats in nWoD and that guy just rolls up a mage.
>>45568238
even worse? Play Monte Cook's WoD.
>>45564495
WFRP 2nd Edition, Earthdawn, GURPS, Song of Swords (though that system is pretty much all melee so not the best comparison), Runequest...
You've got options dude.
>>45564328
>>45565063
Mandatory and half-hearted "Hi Virt".Dungeon World is shit though
>>45566116
>You're at a level where Dominate monster is an option.
>Exactly what the fuck are they versing at that level that isn't immune or has saves out the ass to mind altering effects?
>>45569564
Awesome meme bro
>>45564469
>is super anal about magic in D&D
"It's fucking MAGIC I ain't gotta explain shit"
"but!.."
"Trying to logicify magic drains one of your spellslots."
"You can't!..."
"Another slot going empty."
>>45564328
>>45564495
>>45533980, enjoy.
That said you really should just kick this dude.
>>45564328
Basically, no one really balances most RPGs worth a damn.
In dnd it's fucking casters, but it could as easily be some other bullshit, usually something really cool that's cool because it has tons of options and big shocker, tons of options = op as fuck.
Solution is to look into the tier list approximations of whatever your playing, possibly tell your players you aren't going to put up with them breaking the universe no matter how allowed by RAW it is, and maybe toss in house rules as needed.
You can also class-limit your game by tiers. In dnd it's not a huuuge problem if your party is like, a wizard, cleric, druid, and Sorcerer. but when it's a Wizard, Rogue, fighter, and a bard, you're gonna have a bad fucking day.
In my games usually either we play all non-tier 1-2 caster games, or play games where everyone is tier 1-2 casters, or do a bit of homebrew. My personal go-to is to just lop off the upper level spells and make players research spells on a case by case basis (either their own, or if they're lazy, just learning spells that exist), and I approve them as we go along to prevent insane getting out of hand BS like planes inside of planes and such crap.
I haven't had to deal with it out of 3.5, but making the party all similar tier works in most everything.
>>45564328
D&D is a bad game. It will continue to be a bad game. It will not being a bad game. Play another game.
>>45564328
Have you tried nicely asking him to not roll wizard?
Or, you know, asking him to roleplay one instead of minmaxing?
>>45573226
This is the same reason why super speed usually wins in superpowered games. When someone can take 12 actions before any enemy gets a single one, its cool, but they also trivialize 90% of situations that do not directly hinder or stop them AND ironically slows the game down as they decide what to do.
Wizards of the action economy, I suppose.
>>45573267
What games even do that? MnM just nerfs super speed out of that option.
>>45573274
WoD used to do it.
>>45573294
Oooh, right, Celerity was bullshit.
>>45564392
>>45564683
>>45569468
>>45569564
>>45573226
>>45573242
Could you fucks just fucking stop?
DnD was originally created as a dungeon crawling game with characters of different power levels that would grow in time and level at different rates to balance them. Fighters leveled much faster then Wizards, elves and dwarves (who were race-as-classes by the way).
Additionally; Any amount of DM fiat could stop caster supremacy by enforcing components and actually making magic users work to get their spells. Its like giving Fighters bitching good magic equipment for free every level and then complaining how strong they are.
Stop memeing about DnD being 'omg so shit WOW' typical contrarian /v/ shit. DnD is the most popular and widespread roleplaying game of all time, and while that doesn't necessarily mean its good, it does mean it has to have a necessary threshold of quality.
Cut out the memes, knock this shit off, make /tg/ a better place by being a little more intelligent. Thanks.
>>45573373
>Fighters leveled much faster then Wizards
Actually, Fighters only leveled faster during early levels. Y'know, where they were stronger than the wizard to begin with.
At later levels, wizards (who were rapidly increasing in power with each level at this point) leveled dramatically faster than fighters.
>Its like giving Fighters bitching good magic equipment for free every level and then complaining how strong they are.
Except for the part where you COULD ACTUALLY DO THIS and the game's balance wouldn't even feel it.
Go ahead, try it. Give your Fighter TRIPLE his normal wealth-by-level, and any competently-played Druid and Wizard will still keep pace with him.
>Any amount of DM fiat could stop caster supremacy by enforcing components and actually making magic users work to get their spells.
But we knew you were retarded at this point because OBVIOUSLY the only reason a wizard could ever be powerful is if he convinces the DM he doesn't have to actually pay the 1,000gp.
It couldn't possibly be spells with no/free material components that are powerful. Or that casters can, in many cases, just MAKE their material components and magic items, in a way that fighters absolutely can't match. Or that the wizard can afford to section off chunks of his budget to cover material costs because he doesn't need even half as many magic items as the fighter does thanks to his glut of spellslots.
>>45573294
Also Shadowrun, which is what WoD's Storyteller system is based on.
>>45573407
If you find it this hard to cope or change the game to your own specifications, you don't have to play it.
There have been numerous good suggestions in the thread, especially this homebrew one I like right here >>45567079
You have no reason to continue bitching.
>>45573373
>hurr durr stop being fucking /v/
Alright then, do you know why it is people say DnD (especially 3.PF) is a bad game, beyond the general i want players to play my pet system instead or having actual issues with how the caster edition works? Because when most people, like OP come on to /tg/ or whateverthefuck site to bitch about wizards being OP at the same time they will, more likely than not, not want to go through the actual effort of houseruling/nerfing Wizards and other tier 1 casters and buffing Fighters and other martials to being on an even remotely comparable level. Fuck half the time its them coming onto /tg/ to vent/bitch about how much they hate the "That Guy" in their group and his rules lawyering/drama causing/bringing his GF to the table/"insert thing i dont like here"ing to what they hope is a receptive audience. So fa/tg/uys in general tell them "if you dont like DnD so much find another system".
>>45569564
>implying virt would ever suggest Dungeon World
Seriously, m8?
