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Why is this industry still stuck on books?
Most of the people I know play with PDFs off of laptops or tablets anyways, for the search functionality; but why is everyone still doing hardcovers and PDFs?
Sure they look pretty, but they're not very practical. It's a massive ordeal to errata something that's broken, it's shit for organization and searching purposes, and there's a ton of overhead for printing hard copies.
I would think some kind of entirely digital medium would be the best approach.
What do you guys think of this stuff? Is there a good reason to stick with printed books, or is it just one of those things where the industry isn't keeping up with the times?
>>45549046
Because holding a product you bought in your hands is more rewarding than a PDF. Psychological at least.
Therefore, people willingly will pay more for print-media than digital media.
>>45549177
>Psychological reasons.
Okay fair enough. I feel like going digital they could probably monetize somehow with microtransactions or expansion packs or subscriptions or some shit, but fair enough.
Are there any rational reasons that make sense, on the consumer end, or would it just be better, 100%?
I'm thinking of how much easier it is to play Pathfinder using d20PFSRD than using the actual Pathfinder books, and wondering if it wouldn't be better digital from the start.
I mean you could still sell minis and dice and maps and shit, but I don't know anybody who actually busts out their hard copies if there is a decent, searchable PDF, let alone a web site. I basically never pull out my PF books at game anymore, despite having several hundred dollars worth of them sitting on a shelf.
>>45549177
Also, even if people are willing to pay more for a hard copy, a digital copy doesn't have all those overhead costs, so the profits may be comparable or maybe even better.
>Why is this industry still stuck on books?
Because people still buy them.
>Most of the people I know play with PDFs off of laptops or tablets anyways,
And letting players use laptops or tablets slows the game down in the same way that letting them use a phone does.
>for the search functionality;
Bookmark frequently need pages.
It's faster.
>but why is everyone still doing hardcovers and PDFs?
...?
>Sure they look pretty, but they're not very practical.
Still looks pretty, and still practical.
>It's a massive ordeal to errata something that's broken,
>errata
Topkek. That's the referee's responsibility.
>it's shit for organization and searching purposes,
It's as good for organization as a digital copy, marginally worse for searching, and better for directly accessing marked locations.
>and there's a ton of overhead for printing hard copies.
There's still plenty of profit margin, and it doesn't stop them from selling digital copies.
>I would think some kind of entirely digital medium would be the best approach.
Not everyone in their target audience has a laptop or tablet.
>What do you guys think of this stuff
I like printed books.
>Is there a good reason to stick with printed books,
Less eye strain from continuous use.
>or is it just one of those things where the industry isn't keeping up with the times?
And again: There's still plenty of profit margin, and it doesn't stop them from selling digital copies.
>>45549046
PDF take significantly longer to navigate, not even counting load times. I can usually find a page in a book I've read in less than 5 seconds, and bookmarks will serve the same purpose. Books don't need power nor distract from the game.
About the only drawback are companies like WotC who spread their frequently used rules across like three thick-covered and large-format books, making carrying them and referencing them in a limited space a hassle. Of course that's alleviated by printing stats, spells and such.
Your errata update of pdfs would be great. You know, if it was done.
>>45549439
>letting players use laptops or tablets slows the game down in the same way that letting them use a phone does.
I have not had that experience. It's faster than when they want to look up a character option and don't remember where they got it and have to look through several books.
>Bookmark frequently need pages. It's faster.
than searching a PDF? Maybe. Than clicking a link to the relevant rule/option right on your sheet that immediately pulls up what you need? Not a chance.
>>but why is everyone still doing hardcovers and PDFs?
>...?
What's the confusion. hardcovers & PDFs are books, as opposed to a digital platform designed for digital use.
>Errata? Leave that shit for the GM to handle!
That's fine if it's only a couple things, but I don't want a ton of shit to have to houserule just because the developer did yet another rushed print job that they promise will be fixed for their next batch of customers.
>It's as good for organization as a digital copy, marginally worse for searching, and better for directly accessing marked locations.
No, no and no?
>Organization
Everything is not grouped categorically by content, it's all grouped by book first, and (often) the shit in the book gets printed out of order, or the ToC/Index are shit/basically nonexistent.
>Searching
A single search box is more than marginally better than having to pull out a dozen source books, determine which one you need, and then try to find it in the index. Especially if it's not the shit search that comes with Acrobat.
>Better for Bookmarking
How? I can often put links directly in my character sheets, wherever I need them, and if I had a properly integrated product, those links could be auto-generated as I build my character in a handy all-inclusive character builder.
cont..
>>45549046
No fucking laptops at the gaming table. Not for the DM, not for the players, not for anyone. If you have electronics out while roleplaying, you've failed and should consider suicide.
>>45549807
>Not everyone in their target audience has a laptop or tablet.
I know *ONE* gamer who didnt have a laptop or tablet. He just bought a tablet 2 months ago, actually he bought it primarily for tabletop gaming, so he could pull up PDFs and web tools easily.
>>but why is everyone still doing hardcovers and PDFs?
>...?
>it doesn't stop them from selling digital copies
I think you're missing my question a bit.
>>45549765
I thought I was clear, but apparently not. I'm not talking about hardcopy vs PDF. I'm talking about "hardcopy & PDF" vs "proper program or webapplication".
>Your errata update of pdfs would be great. You know, if it was done.
They might be more inclined to do it if they weren't having to go to all the hassle of using publishing software to update it, and instead just have your maintenance guy change a couple of words of text in a text file.
>>45549814
No fucking paper at the gaming table. Especially paper character sheets. I want to see everything you have between sessions in case I need to see what the group has, and you need to have access to it at the same time to make sure you're updated before the session, because I won't be taking time out of the game for a shopping session or to level up. That shit happens at least a week before game.
And if you're taking campaign notes or tracking party loot or some shit? That needs to be online & digital too. What if you can't show up one week?
1 Laptop/tablet per player, and if you're checking facebook or your email or some shit rather than actually playing the game I'll kick you out of the group if you can't act like an adult and cut it the fuck out.
But no laptops? Thats ridiculous.
>>45549046
Books are better for a post-EMP Apocalypse scenario, both for gaming and as fuel. Also, they aren't as bad for your eyes.
>>45549959
Did you mean to greentext some of that?
I DM and nobody in my group uses tablets cuz:
1) we like the old school atmosphere better. We're playing D&D not having a LAN party.
2) We have jobs and can easily afford the extra cost of print copies.
Also, I like to support game designers with my cash, but I would never pay money for a pdf, feels ridiculous. Plus I love my two local game & comic shops. Fuck a pdf.
>>45549990
>Books are better for a post-EMP Apocalypse scenario, both for gaming and as fuel.
Okay, so keep a copy of GURPS around for a SHTF scenario. Got it.
>Also, they aren't as bad for your eyes.
Maybe turn the brightness down, or don't read off a bright screen in a dark room at close distances? I've not had any issues with eye strain from the amount of time I read off a screen. A couple times after a 16 hour day of writing software, a little, but normal usage, not so much.
>>45549046
Flipping through a book is a lot faster than scrolling through a PDF. Even with bookmarks in the PDF.
>>45549046
Print Books have that distinct smell that is addicting.
>>45550113
Nope, no greentext. It was a response to >>45549814 saying no laptops, which I find ridiculous; because my tabletop gaming has gotten much better since we switched from paper sheets and books to laptops with digital rules and online character sheets.
Better when I'm GMing, better when I'm a player, better all around.
>>45550141
>1) we like the old school atmosphere better. We're playing D&D not having a LAN party.
Hey, if it works for you. Our D&D weekends are very much like a LAN party for parts of it.
>We have jobs and can easily afford the extra cost of print copies.
I have print copies of a bunch of game books. I find I use them when I'm planning a campaign sometimes, but I basically never refer to them during play. And if we're not gaming at my house? Fuck lugging a ton of books across town. I mean, if it was just one book I was taking with me, fine, but several books, for several different game systems? I don't want to load all that into the car and spend a few trips bringing in boxes of books, and then have to lug it all home again. No thanks. If not at my house, I take no more than 2 of my books with me anyways, so the others aren't doing me much good.
>I like to support game designers with my cash, but I would never pay money for a pdf, feels ridiculous.
Ah. I've bought PDFs if they were good, but never for games I already had a hard copy.
>I love my two local game & comic shops. Fuck a pdf.
Mine is doesn't really do RPGs anyways. Pitiful collection, doesn't interact with any kind of RPG community or anything.
I could go for an RPG that was a software purchase like a videogame. Core rules, character builder, built in dice roller (optional but there if you want it), built in digital game table (again optional but there if you want it). Expansions could add in new character options or campaign setting things, or what have you.
>>45550288
Fuck PDFs. I mean something actually designed for digital, not a book shoehorned for digital use.
>>45550319
Magic Cards have that same smell.
>>45550342
>very much like a LAN party for parts of it.
The parts where we're not taking a break to play a boardgame or play MTG, that is.
Though unlike a LAN Party, we all fit around a table, and we cal all see eachothers faces the whole time, because its a TTRPG, not a Lan party on half a dozen desks.
>>45550148
>A couple times after a 16 hour day of writing software
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bates+method
>>45550148
Thanks for the advice and anecdotal evidence. I will give them the amount of consideration they deserve.
Seriously though, I have been a bibliophile and a Luddite since I was a child, and you seem to be a programmer and techie. There are probably underlying psychological and philosophical reasons for us being apples and oranges.
The bottom line is I am not that guy who disallows tech. I used my phone as a spell book until I got cards, and when I DM I don't care what medium my players use. I could never play in a full tech campaign, but I do see the advantages.
>>45549046
Fuck you! I love my books.
>>45549046
I find it harder to focus on what I'm reading when it's on a computer screen. It's also easier for me to flip to a spot in a book than a pdf, I can also add bookmarks to it more easily and label them. I also just like the feel and weight of a book. One of the worst things about a pdf is if a player is using it, a computer or phone just breaks immersion because it has so many options for distraction during a slow part.
>>45550418
Yeah. I didn't really like that job. I felt kind of violated with how little I was getting compensated for how much they seemed to be eating my fucking soul.
I work for a Telco installing phone, internet, and fiber TV service now (Telus). It's a better gig, with better pay, and better benefits, and 1000x the job stability I had before. Couldn't be happier with it.
I still do software projects in my free time, but I would be wary of taking a new full time programming job. Too many shit jobs in the past.
>>45550439
>>45550455
Fair enough. I'm a guy with 15k in RPG books. I understand enjoying books just for reading them. I just find myself thinking more and more that the book/PDF format is making it more work to RPG than it really could be.
>>45550512
It's also easier for me to flip to a spot in a book than a pdf.
When I have the option (Pathfinder), my digital character sheet has hyperlinks to everything I might want to look up, which I can simply click on.
I can find a relevant rule with d20pfsrd's search faster than I can grab the relevant book and open it, let alone faster than flipping to the relevant section.
Web browsers have lots of bookmarks, all great stuff, really.
>A computer or phone just breaks immersion because it has so many options for distraction during a slow part.
You do need to have players that aren't insufferably rude, obviously.
>>45550342
I was just curious if you were serious about the no paper thing, or just making fun of that guy. I allow tablets and laptops when I DM (txt makes IC and DM 'whispers' much easier and more effective), but I am just not keen on doing it myself.
>>45549324
>>microtransactions
You must be fucking joking, this plague you want to bring to tabletop?
Books are still much faster to reference. Questions that get asked frequently, such as details for grappling or synergies with skills etc. are faster to find once you're familiar with a book than using an SRD or a PDF.
Normally my group only uses PDFs of splatbooks, core rulebooks are by far better to have at the table.
>>45550574
>I was just curious if you were serious about the no paper thing.
Mostly serious, if I'm GMing.
I've had far too many issues of
>Player: "the guy with the campaign notes lost them/forgot them/moved"
>Player: "I lost my character sheet"
>Me: "Is this challenge I'm planning too hard for them? I really wish I had a better idea what was on their sheets"
>Player: "I can't do shopping/levelup unless we skip a game to do it, because steve has all the party loot written down."
So Now:
>Online Digital Sheets.
>Online Digital Campaign Notes.
>Online Digital Party Loot.
I don't object to a rulebook at the table, but for the campaign notes/character sheets/etc? digital all the way.
>>45549046
Same reason people like having Blu-Ray libraries instead of all their movies on a hard-drive. Same reason people buy physical copies of video games instead of downloading them. Human beings are sentimental and like having something they own represented physically.
It's why owning a painting feels different than looking at a .jpg of one. You get a feeling of ownership, and a tangible relationship with the item.
Digital's better by leaps and bounds, sure. You can't add links and clickable references to a hardcover. You can't ctrl+F to search it. It's certainly a hell of a lot easier to pass out a USB stick to your gaming group when you crack open a new system than it is to pass the book itself around. But there's a kind of person who enjoys having a bookshelf full of things they like, and there probably always will be.
>>45550735
I personally find physical books easier to read
>>45550573
You're a pretty cool guy. Yeah, I had to learn to build bookshelves to deal with my growing collection (mostly literature, some gaming), and I do overseas contract work so I know how much weight a few books can add to your luggage and carry-on. I should get with the times, but I guess that deep down the cost-benefit doesn't compel my value system.
>>45550635
>You must be fucking joking, this plague you want to bring to tabletop?
Fair point, companies seem far too irresponsible to do it reasonably.
More like Expansions or decent DLC.
>Books are still much faster to reference. Questions that get asked frequently, such as details for grappling or synergies with skills etc. are faster to find once you're familiar with a book than using an SRD or a PDF.
I feel like if the software was decent that would not be the case. d20pfsrd makes finding *anything* in PFRPG as easy as if it was in the core book hardcopy, maybe a bit easier. And I can hyperlink it from my character sheet, or whatever, for stuff relevant to specific characters.
>>45550735
>People like physical media
Hmm. Fair enough. I just pawned my DVD collection a month ago - I only use digital movies these days. Kept my LOTR Extended DVDs, that's about it.
>>45550635
>Books are still much faster to reference.
PDFs can have this handy thing called indexing. You don't even need to know/look up the page number, you just click on it on the sidebar and it's there.
Not to mention things like a search function for spell lists and other abilities.
Books are never faster, unless you literally have them open at the rule you want to reference.
On the other hand, printed character sheets with all spells/abilities with full text printed are very handy and faster than everyone having their own "character PDF" or something.
>>45550824
>printed character sheets with all spells/abilities with full text printed are very handy and faster than everyone having their own "character PDF" or something.
Typically they just have sheets with ability names. If you're lucky they wrote in the page number and the book.
Here's a digital sheet for a character I ran. GM wanted very thorough sheets, so that's what I did.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TekC3TdlXC-MBb1C6f4xwqI_vNp_ED02O-tEVz_eDvA/edit#heading=h.71t2i2ubxs1n
>>45550780
Thanks. Yeah, I like my book collection for reading, but I could really use something more convenient than a stack of books (or folder of PDFs) to reference. A single program/webapp with all character stuff and ll the game stuff would be super useful.
>>45550824
I can find anything in the Pathfinder CRB or 3.5 PHB at least as fast as someone with a PDF and definitely faster than someone on the appropriate SRD.
It does take a while to become familiar with the book, but if you are consistently playing a game it happens.
>>45549046
Grogs still exist, and even though I'm not one, I vastly prefer having a book over using my tablet. Just more pleasant to flip through and doesn't need a battery
>>45551796
Yep. As power becomes more of a concern, we'll see a resurgence in analog data storage -- that is, books. A hard drive keeps its memory for a decade or two at best. A book keeps it for centuries.
>>45551796
>a book
>a
>1
1 book is fine. I'd much rather have a tablet or laptop than lug half a dozen books or more with me; and it could be quite a bit more if we're going to be playing more than one game that day (we often play 2 or 3 a day for 2-3 days.
>Grogs still exist
Do grogs even spend money on products? I was under the impression they basically only played the games they already had from "back in their day".
>>45551844
>As power becomes more of a concern, we'll see a resurgence in analog data storage
Hard drives take very little power. Short of the end of civilization, I don't see this being hard to come by.
If it does, I guess I'll have to fall back to the media I have in book form, but I'm not going to plan my entire life around that potential event.
Deadtree is better
>>45549046
Because I like having dead trees in my home.
I'd love to see more companies companies go for an all wiki format for their games. Books are good, but relying on book sales alone is what kills a ton of companies, and pdfs have the worst of both worlds. Fuck pdfs, seriously
>>45549959
Unacceptable. My players are allowed character sheets, scratch paper, pencils, and dice. If you're going to let them use laptops, then why even bother with dice? Just let them use a RNG. And why bother with roleplaying games? Just LAN party some shitty videogame. That's basically what you're trying to do anyway. Electronics only serve to break immersion and lower the quality of the game. I know this from experience.
I will never let my players use a laptop while playing. That's rude and absolutely ridiculous. It's like talking on your cell phone while on a crowded bus.
And you, for promoting it, have no decency. You are the scum of the roleplaying world.
>>45555674
Also, adding to this, having everyone on a laptop is strictly anti-social. RPGs are supposed to be about people getting together and having a good time playing the role of a group of characters in a rich and fantastic world. When each player is sitting behind a computer screen while in the same room with everyone else, mesmerized by the glow of their computer screen, literally putting up physical barriers between them and the group in the form of the laptop screen, it takes away from every aspect of the game. That is, it takes away from the game itself and it takes away from the social aspect of the game.
Plus, I expect my players to basically memorize what their character can do. If you really need a hyperlink to the spell effect for eldritch blast, maybe you should play an easier character. Like a 1eAD&D fighter or something. Obviously you can't handle playing as a more complex character.
If you can't memorize what your character can do, you're shit at immersing yourself in-game and you shouldn't be playing at all.
>>45549046
>Why is this industry still stuck on books?
The photo is your answer, just look at how awesome all of that is.
>>45549324
Ok everyone else did a good job explaining why print books are still good.
However, if you want a game that's now all-in for PDFs, GURPS made this switch a few years ago. All are small, lean files. The graphic design and layout are optimized for screens. All are searchable, and we're starting to see more hypertext. No DRM. Rights to print for personal use are granted, and there's a page you can show at print shops if they refuse to print and bind it due to copyright.
You can but any 4th edition book as a PDF. Most new supplements are pdf-only. Errata are applied and then you can redownload. Some have attachments in other formats, including a star map calculator in Excel for people playing hard sci fi (it was a pyramid article on star maps).
Prices are low and they're friendly to players writing for publication. Supplements are available in all sizes, from pyramid articles to minibooks to 40 page books all the way up to hardcovers.
Pyramid is a monthly string of PDF articles, each used for short topics. It's also used for rules options and examples. Unofficially, it's where new systems get prototyped and play tested. Several have been expanded into fullbooks. You can get a subscription (discounted) or a la carte.
Basically, they're doing it exactly the way I think companies should.
I think a neat solution would be; when you buy a book, you get a copy of the PDF. That way you get the physical aspect to hold and the ease of taking a tablet to a game session if need be.
>>45549046
Because sometimes you need to hit a dense fucker with the rules, literally.
I love how OP speaks in the possibilities of electronic books (after backtracking from "pdf") rather than how they are.
In theory, we could have the perfect electronic books, with good colour, speedy lookup and loading times and errata added to the material in real time on good pixel resolution screens. I mean, it's possible. In reality, what we have are cruddy laptop screens which at best show half of what a book does, on shitty pdfs, which are a bitch to search and navigate, taking three times a book to search, crappy dice apps which are run separately from the sheet and computers which distract the players (and players who can't be arsed to show their GM their sheets despite it being simpler than with paper).
If you want to make that electronic material, I'm all for it. But let's not pretend that's where we are.
>>45549046
Well, they're still selling, so obviously people want them.
Including me. There's a couple of reasons for that:
1.) DPI is better in a printed book than a PDF read from a laptop, which means less eyestrain.
2.) A physical book simply feels good to have. People like things. And there's nothing quite so nice as turning the pages of a well constructed, sturdily bound book.
3.) Errata is only a problem if the company in question is incompetent (Wizards, Paizo, etc.). Which means they didn't playtest it, didn't hire editors, and generally don't give a crap about the quality of what they put out.
4.) Organizationally, a physical book should have an index and a table of contents. If it doesn't, I'm probably not going to buy it (this is an advantage of print books in general, if you can locate a physical copy, you can check to see if it has these things). If I do end up buying a book without one or the other, I generally will review it on Amazon or a similar store and warn other potential buyers about it.
5.) Electronic devices at the table are distractions. There's always the temptation to check email when it's not your turn, or shitpost on 4chan, or pop in to your brand of MMO to "just check a few things/run dailies". All of this is detrimental to the experience.
I'm not against PDFs, I think they're great for when you're separated from your books. However, if you're playing a game with so many supplements and splatbooks that you NEED the PDFs just to get the content without breaking your back, you might want to rethink how many rules and splats are truly necessary for your game.That said, it's sometimes nice to use PDFs when I'm preparing for a game, at home, on my laptop.
During game, I find it preferable to have notes, physical copies, and to just make rulings on the fly if we can't remember what an obscure rule does in a forgotten supplement.
>>45549046
>Why is this industry still stuck on books?
Because mobile and PC readers for PDF won't let you open multiple windows of the same PDF.
Seriously what the fuck.
I should have to use two separate PDF readers for that. Easier just to have a spare physical copy on hand.
Reading threads like these make me realize how lucky I am to have a good game group of reasonable adults. We must use tablets and laptops because the system is a homebrew on a wiki. Yet magically we have fun with no more distractions than a group where technology is strictly verboten
>>45549046
>Why is this industry still stuck on books?
Because a lot of people still like / prefer books.
1. No electricity required. A book or two, some paper, pencils, and a handful of dice and you're good to go.
2. Some of us do enjoy the weight, heft, feel, and even the smell of books. It fires our imaginations and reminds us of other great times spent lost in the wonder of reading. The smell of warm plastic - not so much.
3. While electronic format documents do offer some appealing features, the devices players use for browsing said documents often contain a lot of other distracting applications that compete for the player's attention rather than focusing on the game at hand.
>>45550573
>You do need to have players that aren't insufferably rude, obviously.
It isn't even a matter of 'rude' but rather a society that rewards short attention spans and "Oh Shiny!.. Oh SQUIRREL!"
4. The written word remains viable for decades or even centuries. Electronic formats change more often than some people change underwear. Sort of like all those 80's board games with VHS Tapes - they'll be making VCR's for decades from today. Right?
4a. Because of changing electronic devices and document formats, players can effectively be forced to buy the same product multiple times if they want to continue to enjoy it over long periods of time.
No fucking electronics at the table.
It always leads to distraction, if it's a laptop it takes up ungodly space, and the glow of the screen can ruin the atmosphere. When the dice are out, the phones are off and the computers are away.
>>45550342
>we switched from paper sheets and books to laptops with digital rules and online character sheets.
I've never been more disgusted in my entire life.
>>45549814
I play WW games.
I refuse to use physical die. Electronic all the way
>>45549046
Because a book is more convenient. I can find any given rule by muscle memory alone in less time than it takes you to type the shit into searchbar using the most inconvenient method known to man, the touchpad.
Also a book won't run out of power halfway through if I don't appease it's machine spirit with daily charging.
>>45550735
Really? For me I feel no longing for digital copies. I live in a very crowded house and don't know where I'd put them, but even if I could I don't want any physical.
>>45555805
If this wasn't my work computer, I'd post a neckbeard picture.
So I'll just saw you're a gronard for only thinking threre is only one true way. Its not like people play online or PbP either. Nope.
>>45555674
>Ridiculous slippery slope fallacy.
Seriously?
Yes the laptops replace the paper and pencils and character sheets.
>Why bother with roleplaying games
Seriously? Because that is the kind of game we want to play? Because we want a game that involves face to face interaction? It's not that hard to understand.
>I will never let my players use a laptop while playing.
I'm glad I'm not in your group.
>That's rude and absolutely ridiculous. It's like talking on your cell phone while on a crowded bus.
Not even a little bit. You might as well claim that using premade nails for a construction job is like not going to work at all, and you have to make your own nails with hand tools.
It would be rude if they start looking at facebook/playing videogames/checking their email/whatever, but using the laptop for the express purpose of the RPG game? That's just using better tools.
>you, for promoting it, have no decency. You are the scum of the roleplaying world.
And you're a retard with no grasp on reality, projecting your fear of improvement onto others as some sort of lack of social skills on their part.
>>45555805
>having everyone on a laptop is strictly anti-social.
Bullshit.
>RPGs are supposed to be about people getting together and having a good time playing the role of a group of characters in a rich and fantastic world.
Yep.
>When each player is sitting behind a computer screen while in the same room with everyone else, mesmerized by the glow of their computer screen, literally putting up physical barriers between them and the group in the form of the laptop screen, it takes away from every aspect of the game. That is, it takes away from the game itself and it takes away from the social aspect of the game.
Yeah, it would. Fortunately for everyone, that doesn't happen. Everyone can see everyone else's faces at all times, and they're looking at their laptops as often as they would be looking at a book or character sheet in an all paper game.
>>45555805
>I expect my players to memorize what their character can do. If you can't memorize what your character can do, you're shit at immersing yourself in-game and you shouldn't be playing at all.
Some of the players in my group suck at remembering the mechanical aspects of their characters; and I've had people who "memorized" mis-remember some detail of their abilities on more than one occasion over the last 15 years, sometimes I mis-remember a mechanic, myself. Often these players are great roleplayers (as well as close friends) and are just not good at memorizing game mechanics.
>>45555805
Confirmed for never having played a caster past the babby levels
>>45557162
That would be a bit of a step-up, certainly.
>>45557261
>I love how OP speaks in the possibilities of electronic books.
Yes, that was the point.
>after backtracking from "pdf"
No backtracking at all, I complained about PDFs too, right in my OP.
>Good electronic materials don't exist.
I would disagree. My examples would be d20pfsrd and AoN for Pathfinder, as well as M&M, and a couple others. Yes, electronic resources are lacking for many other games.
But they exist for some of the games already. Could they be improved further? Absolutely. Are those web-tools already better than hardcopy or PDFs? Yep.
>>45557519
>Errata is only a problem if the company in question is incompetent (Wizards, Paizo, etc.). Which means they didn't playtest it, didn't hire editors, and generally don't give a crap about the quality of what they put out.
I have yet to find an RPG company that didn't have errata issues that had to be fixed in future printings. Sometimes they go unaddressed, sometimes the company in question actually fixes the problems.
>Organizationally, a physical book should have an index and a table of contents. If it doesn't, I'm probably not going to buy it. If I buy a book without one or the other, I review it on Amazon and warn other potential buyers.
Many lack an index, or have a shitty ToC or shitty Index. But even if that aspect is perfect, when a few more books are published, all the stuff for class/splat/category of stuff A is not all in one place. You now have to check multiple books, and that number grows with each new book.
In an application, that new content could be added in with the other content, allowing for much better organization for browsing purposes, in addition to its searching capabilities.
>this is an advantage of print books in general, if you can locate a physical copy, you can check to see if it has these things.
A web app would end up having those things, as well as a search box the likes of d20pfsrd.
>Electronic devices at the table are distractions.
Potentially.
>There's always the temptation to check email when it's not your turn, or shitpost on 4chan, or pop in to your brand of MMO to "just check a few things/run dailies". All of this is detrimental to the experience.
Absolutely. There is the potential for distraction. This to me is an argument for an offline application that runs on the machine, then you can have all the advantages digital apps offer, with none of the distractions. Shut off your wifi if you can't trust your players.
>>45557519
>if you're playing a game with so many supplements and splatbooks that you NEED the PDFs just to get the content without breaking your back, you might want to rethink how many rules and splats are truly necessary for your game.
Its typically player options that the characters took, that could be spread out over a dozen books. And I'd rather them have the actual rules text of their abilities than chance it being mis-remembered or making inconsistent or unfair rulings because I dont have the source in front of me. Inconsistent rulings destroy player immersion.
And sometimes, the players throw me a curveball, and I find myself suddenly wanting the rules for nautical adventures and ship to ship combat, or what have you.
>>45559467
>apps
And when Windows 33 comes out, and makes x32 or x64 architecture obsolete, and those programs don't work anymore without going to absurd lengths like running a virtual machine, what then?
>>45557739
I'm not advising PDFs. PDFs aren't much better than hard copies. I'm advising a single piece of software (again, similar to d20pfsrd, but preferably designed by someone who can handle more than basic text on pages, who could incorporate an integrated character builder etc).
I agree, its retarded that PDF readers can't handle having multiple pages open in the same document, in different tabs.
>>45559595
See, this is actually a problem with Pathfinder, and other splat heavy game lines.
Just because there's a thousand splats doesn't mean you should use them for every single game.
>nautical combat
I keep a more or less rules agnostic nautical supplement in the milk crate I carry my essential books in for a reason.
Almost everything else can be dealt with by utilizing common sense, and the game's core mechanics.
>>45558136
>threads like these make me realize how lucky I am to have a good game group of reasonable adults. we have fun with no more distractions than a group where technology is strictly verboten.
No kidding. Jesus Christ.
>>45558142
>No electricity required.
There's no electricity where you game? I would assume that's not the norm for most people.
>Some enjoy the weight, heft, feel, and smell of books.
I am among them. Books are great for reading. For cross-referencing and searching many sources you can do better, and there are examples of companies dabbling in it. d20pfsrd (again), AoN, ddi, etc. They aren't all doing a great job of it, but at least some of them are doing it better than the individual books do.
>Players can't pay attention if they could check facebook.
In my experience, they can, and even if you have a bunch of ADD-adled (I have ADD, I manage to do it, without medication no less) or disrespectful jerks, something with an offline option would still work, then you could turn off your wifi.
>The written word remains viable for decades or even centuries.
There will still be websites decades from now, yes. People will (likely) still have PCs that can run windows applications, and depending on how you developed it, porting it to new hardware may not be much trouble at all, your development environment may just take care of it for you when you update it.
>Because of changing electronic devices and document formats, players can effectively be forced to buy the same product multiple times if they want to continue to enjoy it over long periods of time.
A potential problem, but one which is easily avoided in these days of digital distribution.
You could end up needing to buy a new hard copy because yours is too beat up though. I've had that happen a couple times.
>>45558419
>Because a book is more convenient. I can find any given rule by muscle memory alone in less time than it takes you to type the shit into searchbar using the most inconvenient method known to man, the touchpad.
If you compare finding the right book (out of say, 10 potential books), digging it out, and flipping through ti to what you need, vs clicking a searchbox, typing a word in with a keyboard, and then clicking the first result that pops up? not even close.
But maybe, if your entire game is in one book.
>>45558419
>a book won't run out of power halfway through if I don't appease it's machine spirit with daily charging.
Fortunately, you can plug in your device to one of the 16 power outlets around you whenever you'd like, so you don't have to worry about that.
>>45559605
>x86 software obsolete.
Then the company clicks the recompile button, chooses the new platforms, and uploads the version for those platforms. It'll take them very little time or effort if they develop using modern tools.
>For mobile?
APKs (Android) are hardware independent. they'll run on anything that has the driver to support APKs, so whatever new version of android you get will be able to run old android apps.
>For web?
Web browsers will always be able to read your webpage, and your server just runs in the background doing all the work.
No problem.
>>45559835
>porting it to new hardware may not be much trouble at all, your development environment may just take care of it for you when you update it.
There are computer programs, video games, and digital documents lost forever because the hardware and software necessary to access, run them, or use them no longer exists.
And that's not counting the tons and tons of programs that are a pain in the ass to get working on modern software/hardware configurations because the devs stopped supporting it because it cost too much, or they went out of business.
Homeworld Cataclysm is fucked because its source code was lost, and there will likely never be an HD remaster because of it.
This won't happen to say, AD&D 1e.
>>45559664
>Just because there's a thousand splats doesn't mean you should use them for every single game.
Why should have to I tell Steve (my hypothetical example player) "all of your character's options have to come out of no more than 2 books."
No, I don't want to be that buzzkill GM. If his concept fits in my campaign setting, and into my campaign, let him choose character options as he wishes.
>>45560032
Why does Steve need to be a Half-Illithid Axe Master/Mindzerker?
>>45549177
Yeah, think about those rednecks buying magic cards. There is MODO to play online with e-cards (cheaper than Paper Magic), but people prefer to buy paper magic cards cause of the interaction with people when they play, their frustraion or joy when winning or losing a game, something that MODO cant offer.
>>45560004
>There are computer programs, video games, and digital documents lost forever because the hardware and software necessary to access, run them, or use them no longer exists.
There are. Absolutely.
However, Unlike the old development tools of yesteryear, modern software tools can deploy to many different system/hardware platforms, and they add new platforms to the list as they come out and become relevant.
The odds of this happening these days is pretty slim, unless the company goes out of business.
>>45560084
MODO is also the worst program to ever exist. It's designed to be a hellhole so that players don't migrate to it unless they're really invested.
>mfw scared of losing paper sales
>>45560057
I likely wouldn't have approved that character unless "zany abominations" was the core concept of the game.
But Steve could absolutely end up being a Duergar wizard with spells & class abilities drawn from a dozen sources, in say an underdark game, or an aquatic elf swashbuckler sort with combat options, feat, class features, etc drawn from a dozen or more splats.
I like books because I can have like 5 books open around me instead of having to tab through a bunch of documents when I'm cross-referencing stuff or planning things. Also, anyone who got into tabletop roleplaying before tech was handy can probably tell you that your book-fu gets insane, and you can crack those books open to near whatever you're looking for with a bit of practice.
>>45560146
>aquatic elf swashbuckler
in a coastal campaign or high-seas piracy campaign.
OP asked for a reason, he has gotten them. If he can't understand, that's his problem.
I actually play with kids who use laptops - there's less involvement, even compared to using roll20 with the same people. There are always battery issues and craploads of power cords and usually wifi issues. They basically use their computers for their character sheets. Guess which is heavier.
>>45560104
And companies go out of business all the time, or they downsize and stop supporting a program or app because it costs more than its making them.
Or they promise the moon and the stars, and they don't deliver.
See:
>D&D Insider/GleeMax/the WotC forums
>>45549046
PDFs require laptops or tablets which, brace yourself, not everyone has access to or can afford. The producer would limit their consumer base by reducing the availability of their product. The frequency of the "I'm new to RPG plz help" on this board alone is evidence of how many new/young consumers there are. The prevalence of PDFs is actually a response to the need to reach more consumers.
>>45560303
If you can't afford a $200 laptop or tablet, you can't afford a bunch of $60 books either.
And a broke 20 year old is going to make sure they have a computer that can at least browse and run netflix long before they're going to dump money into expensive books.
>>45560450
Addendum:
More and more things are becoming smartphone accessible, and basically everyone between 10 and 40 has a smart phone of some sort.
I would rather have a laptop (bigger screen, keyboard), but if you want to be able to market to *everyone*, phones would be the platform to do it on.
>>45549439
>Most of the people I know play with PDFs off of laptops or tablets anyways,
And letting players use laptops or tablets slows the game down in the same way that letting them use a phone does.
My game i play in is run online, we need to use computers to play at all, everyone is engaged and for the most part focused. your game is either shit or your players are.
>>45549046
Last night we needed to look up a rule, I went for the Core Manual while one of my players looked it up digitally.
I was reading the rule out loud before he had reached it.
i dont like scrolling
>>45549046
After the world ends I'll still have my RPG books and be able to play them with the other survivors
I have played both with paper sheets and without sheets all together. For me, it works fine. I imagine that if everyone would use a laptop, there would be no room on the table for the map, dice or to see each other.
I also believe that a sheet isn't a real sheet unless it's stained, bend, folded or covered in half erased numbers. Just a personal thing.
But I mostly play in a group where we all sit on sofa's and recliners. Paper sheets (although one guy had his on his phone), no map, no mini's. Just a group of people listening to the descriptions of a location, the smells, the chill, the press of the crowd.
Then again, if we roll dice in that group, it happens maybe once a session orso.
>>45560542
This. EMP/solar flares will never stop pen and paper.
>>45560506
>My game i play in is run online, we need to use computers to play at all, everyone is engaged and for the most part focused. your game is either shit or your players are.
My sentiment exactly.
>>45560520
What game? If Pathfinder (my best example of good digital resources) did he already have d20pfsrd open/laptop on/connected to internet?
>>45560542
Haha. yeah, another guy said that.
Fair enough, make sure you have paper & dice RPGs stocked in your hideout for your doomsday prepping.
But you could get a mechanical woodgas engine, for off-grid, and burn cords of dry wood for power & heat. Or use solar/wind/hydroelectric power offgrid solutions.
I suppose if all your electronics are fried in an EMP you're SOL, but you can't win them all.
Eventually you're going to run out of pens, pencils, erasers, and paper, anyways.
An in the meantime, your gaming is going to be less good because you're so paranoid about the world ending you won't use resources that aren't on paper.
>>45560450
>cant afford a bunch of $60 books either
A friend of mine gave me all his 3.5 books when he couldn't store them anymore. I lend them out to friends who need them. No need for everyone to own all books.
>>45560604
If everyone has a laptop you do tend to need a decent sized table, sure, or have everyone sitting in chairs with laptops on end tables/foldable tables, with a table in the middle for the maps and such.
But that is not a hard thing to accomplish. Maybe if I had a tiny place, it wouldnt be great for gaming, but I suspect that would still be the case without laptops.
>>45549046
I think that more people need to experiment with browser or browser style formats before they become popular. PRD is good but I think that it is being held back by people unsure of what others want. One of the things that the PRD lacks is some type of feature similar to the post linking on this site. I find it really handy that I can just hover over a post or reply number and have that pop up in a mini-window.
>>45560644
Then they can't access those books when they're building their characters, or updating them, or whatever (all the stuff that happens between games), or at least, only one of them can access a book at a given time.
PDFs have their issues, but even if PDFs are the only digital resource I have access to, I can quite easily share all the PDFs with the group over google drive, or email, or a dozen other ways.
I have the most extensive collection in my group. A couple of my players have no books in many of the systems we play. But for Pathfinder they can pull up d20pfsrd, and for shadowrun/d20 conan etc, I can get them the PDFs well in advance, and they can email me a link to their character sheet 2 weeks before the start of the campaign for me to clear everything, so that come game day, we're not wasting time building characters instead of playing.
I like books, but i'm all for pdf's, if only because I can find then through /tg/. Has brought me in contact with alot of systems I never heard of before.
>>45560720
>some type of feature similar to the post linking on this site
What do you mean?
d20pfsrd has lots of hyperlinks to other relevant rules. It's pretty good that way.
Do you mean the official Paizo PRD? Because that is a crappy tool for players. It's not designed for player use, but for publisher use so they can copy and paste relevant OGL text easily into their books.
>>45549324
It's only easier if you're used to the game system.
Try building something in eclipse phase without the physical book
>>45560643
Pathfinder. I'm pretty sure he had the resource open, but on a completely different section.
>>45560838
Does eclipse phase even have a web tool/app/thing, or do you just mean it has PDFs and you don't like the PDFs?
(I have never played Eclipse Phase.)
>>45549814
this so much
>Dude I brought my laptop lmao
>>45560851
d20PFSRD's menus aren't great, but the search function is pretty fantastic & snappy.
But I suspect the results would be different if it wasn't something in the core book that you knew where to find, such as some archetype or feat or spell outside the core book, and you would have to sit and think about which book it is in first, then dig it out, etc.
>>45560900
>Samefagging grog
There've only been 4 of us in this thread.
>>45560903
I'm pretty good at knowing what's where. If I know what section it's in I use the table of contents, otherwise I go straight for the index. No flipping through pages looking for it.
>>45560933
>Electronics Are Bad Grog
>OP/"Digital has so much potential" guy
>Online RPG Guy
>Guy who Prefers books but sees why others might not.
>>45560704
>not a hard thing to accomplish
You'd be surprised. Maybe it's cause I live in the netherlands, but alot of people's places I play at are 100 square meters, deviating up or down a bit. That doesn't leave alot of room for a huge table, as we also have to squeeze in a kitchen, a sofa, tv space, ect (and multiple rooms) in that space.
But if you live bigger, I can see your point. I just never played with everyone using laptops, so I cannot give an unbiassed answer, ofcourse.
>>45549046
That Dark Sun collection gave me a boner. But Tales of the Lance killed it.
>>45560965
And if your PC takes feats/spells/whatever from some of those 96 page softcovers? They're not books you need to bust out very often, since they're mostly fluff on specific topics/regions/groups.
>>45561030
I didn't say we never use online resources.
The best approach is to use a mixture of digital and analog resources. The books are very handy for things used often and I prefer using the bestiaries for monsters.
>>45560993
My place was the defacto gaming space for the last few years (I just moved across the country for a new job). Roughly 1100 sqft, which is just a bit larger than you mentioned, and I had a roommate/gf living with me.
We could fit in 6 people (myself included) all gaming for a weekend. Sleeping space was at a premium (sleeping bags on the floor for most of the people, one person got the couch, and me and my GF slept in our bed).
But when we were actually gaming? we all fit around my (admittedly large ish) kitchen table pretty well with our stuff, and used end tables/ folding tables to hold snacks.
I didnt have a bunch of recliners or anything like that though. My apartment was not big enough for a couch plus 3 recliners.
I love books and I vastly prefer them to PDF.
>>45561069
I use more NPCs than monsters, but I can see wanting to use books for monsters if you mostly use them.
>>45549814
>not GM'ing with a laptop so that you can effortlessly play atmospheric music at opportune moments, look up multiple random name lists online for differently themed characters, and quickly record stats and key details without your players noticing.
>>45561140
As a group of independent monster hunters, they fight NPCs fairly rarely.
Hardcover, full color, big publisher RPGs are priced out of the market for those without a full time job (kids, college students). Use to be in mid 90s you could pick up the black and white softcover rules for $20 which is $30 in 2016 when we adjust for inflation. Parents might buy a $60 vidya but how many kids will ask for a $60 rpg book? This isn't good for the future of hobby. I bought all my D&D books with birthday money and the like at age 10+
>>45549046
I prefer using digital texts. I have to go out for sessions, where I'd rather not lug a half-dozen paper books, in addition to my other gaming paraphernalia. Searching digital versions is incredibly easy (takes seconds to find what I need), and I can also quickly snip out a segment of text to side-by-side it with other rules texts. I'm also not quite settled down yet, so moving a box of books every few months is a real pain in the ass.
There is one compromise I am willing to make: Laptops are to be closed unless you are looking game rules (and nothing else unless it's urgent), and you will close the laptop once you are done looking up the rule you wanted to know. If you are found playing vidya during the session, you will close the laptop and may be subjected to brief and light-hearted teasing.
>>45561181
My PCs tend to not be that, and instead tend to get involved in guild conflicts.
Occasionally they'll want to retrieve something that requires they kill a bunch of monsters, or the monsters inhabit an area they need to travel through; but they are rarely the bulk of what my group faces off against.
>>45561384
>Laptops are to be closed unless you are looking game rules
Ugh. Paper sheets.
Then I cannot see the PCs sheets or campaign notes between sessions.
Or if I have them, then they cannot do their shopping and levelup and whatnot during downtime like I expect them to. And they have to spend more sessions focusing on downtime.
Digital sheets, 100%.
>If you are found playing vidya during the session, you will close the laptop and may be subjected to brief and light-hearted teasing.
I think I would also start that way, but it could escalate up to you being disallowed on wifi if its an ongoing issue.
>>45563047
>Then I cannot see the PCs sheets or campaign notes between sessions.
>Or if I have them, then they cannot do their shopping and levelup and whatnot during downtime like I expect them to. And they have to spend more sessions focusing on downtime.
One way to get around this is to take pictures of the sheets. That can also serve as a bit of insurance against cheating and other errors. But if your group is comfortable using digital sheets without being distracted, all the better.
>>45549814
Electronics are just tools. If you are playing with such immature people that they are unable to use electronics in a productive manner, then you should kill yourself.
>>45563711
>If you are playing with such immature people that they are unable to use electronics in a productive manner, then you should kill yourself.
Personally I'd advocate killing them rather than yourself, if they're the problem.
>>45559083
Its not actually a slippery slope fallacy if it's an observed behavior. When you actually see your players slip into antisocial behavior once you allow screens at the table, it ceases to be a slippery slope and becomes verifiable fact.
>>45564364
Lets take a look at your claims, and see if I can find any rational arguments, or a reason to think you're being at all logical.
Here's a summation of your points from >>45555674
>"If you allow tools to replace the books, why not replace the dice too?"
Lots of people use dice rolling apps. I tend to prefer dice in most circumstances, but if I ever think "wow, that dice roller would make this game better because of (Reason)", then sure why not.
>"If you want to use machines to make your social game better, why play an RPG at all?"
This one just makes no sense. Because that's the game we decided we wanted to play?
"If you want to use a tool designed to help you reference card rulings for MTG to make your MTG better, why not play Hearthstone?"
I mean really. What is this garbage. You think this is a rational point?
>"Clearly you just want to LAN a shitty videogame anyways"
And yet I have made the decision to do something else. If I wanted to LAN a videogame, I could do that. I have an apartment full of people with laptops. We could play a LAN game if we wanted to. The fact that we're not doing that would seem to indicate that's not what we want to do at that moment, wouldn't it.
Next.
..cont
>"Electronics lower the quality of RPGs, because I say so because anecdotes, and fuck anybody who has contradicting experiences."
My posts indicate experiences that fly in opposition to yours. No point in repeating it again. Reread the thread if you like. I'm sorry your players are douchebags who don't respect you enough to act like an adult while you're GMing.
Next.
>"You have no decency for having players who respect you as GM enough not to ruin the game for everyone when given access to tools, and therefore deciding that tools can be positive".
Pure retard-talk. Next.
>"You are the scum of the roleplaying world."
Are you an autist with no social skills, with a group of players who hate you? I have no other explanation for this mouth-frothing nonsense.
You might be able to disagree with someone like a rational adult, and maybe you even have some good points to share. We're here if you are able to do so.
>>45564364
>When you actually see your players slip into antisocial behavior once you allow screens at the table, it ceases to be a slippery slope and becomes verifiable fact.
Again, your experiences with a limited group =/= everyone's experiences everywhere. It just sounds like you game with have a bunch of assholes I wouldn't game with.
>>45549046
because when the day comes that books become obsolete and I'm an old fucking geezer, when my grandkids come up to me and ask me what I used to do for fun when I was young I'll give them the widest toothless grin I can and then hobble my way to my secret room before pulling out my favorite source book and slapping it down onto a table,
"BRACE YOURSELF, SONNY, WE'RE GONNA SLAY A DRAGON TODAY"
>>45549046
The industry still makes physical books because physical books make money. They don't have to pick between PDFs and paperbacks, they'll cut whatever doesn't end up working.
>>45565272
>Again with the PDFs vs Paperbacks.
I'm talking about a real digital solution (bare-minimum of something like d20PFSRD/13th age srd/d20herosrd etc), not taking your print book layout, compressing the fuck out of it, and adding some bookmarks.
Sell access to your supplements as expansions/DRM, allow you to share your purchased stuff with up to 8 people, work in decent software tools, etc. Actually use whats available rather than putting out tweaked print book source files.
I suppose you need to have someone who knows what they're doing that way (at least for the core of the game), you can't just have anybody hammer out a bunch of text in MS Word for $100 per book.
>>45565014
>Again, your experiences with a limited group =/= everyone's experiences everywhere. It just sounds like you game with have a bunch of assholes I wouldn't game with.
Perhaps. But it's not a FALLACY. Anon isn't wrong for making the argument that screens at the game table do, sometimes, lead to things going to shit, and that it's a legitimate concern.
And your counter is trending perilously close to "no true scotsman", insofar as you're pretty much saying that "no GOOD players are going to succumb to that".
>>45565465
I'd probably pay money just to have good links in a digital sourcebook, or ideally have something that's maintained to keep up with errata and developer comments. I know the Shadowrun guys did this by sticking comments over their basic PDFs, so it's not that hard.
I totally agree about digital books often being quite lazy in their execution. They could really enhance the experience by putting some effort into it.
>>45565904
>your counter is trending perilously close to "no true scotsman", insofar as you're pretty much saying that "no GOOD players are going to succumb to that".
Then you're misreading me.
There's a big difference between disagreeing with the loony calling people "the scum of the roleplaying world" because they have badwrongfun and use tools, and because they haven't had universally terrible experiences with the use of tools, and someone claiming that people can't have bad experiences with their players.
There's no "No True Scotsman" situation here.
Dude's description of his group sounds like a description of a group composed of people I've "not invited back" to my games. If you don't want to be there, and are going to waste my time and show you have no respect for the effort I put into the campaign by being a distraction and not paying any attention to the game, why would I want to continue to game with you?
I have had short-lived groups of players who were like that. GMing for them was a miserable experience, and talking to them about it made no difference, so I cancelled the campaign. Why would I put a bunch of work prepping a campaign for people who are going to make it a miserable experience for me?
Yes, there are shitty disrespectful players. Yes, there are irresponsible or easily distracted players who can't be trusted with access to tools. No, they are not the entirety of the roleplaying hobby.
>>45564992
>Dice rolling apps
You realize though that dice rolling apps should generally be banned simply because they can never, ever generate proper random numbers because of the way computers do math, right?
Source: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/124233/why-is-it-impossible-to-produce-truly-random-numbers
>>45567963
Couple points.
1. Rolling dice isn't truly random either. I know people who can pretty reliably control the results on say 3d6, so they have way better odds than probability would suggest. Dice rolling can be learned.
Even if you're using typical computer generated random numbers (which are functionally random, even if not truly theoretically random), thats already beyond conventional dice or cards, which you can learn to control with practice.
All it means about computer generated random numbers not being "truly" random, is that the numbers generated are based on SOMETHING. That something is a wide variety of variables outside the user's control, up to and including the current date & time of the request for a random number, down to the milisecond.
If you have a shitty RNG, you know what the algorithm the computer is using to generate the random number, and you have a hacked device (say, so that the clock never changes) then yes, you could potentially control the results you get.
Good luck with that. Way easier to cheat with dice.
But seriously, RNG is more random than dice or cards, anyways.
If you *REALLY* want random numbers, Random.org generates its numbers based on noise being recorded. That's about as random as you'll ever get, through any method.
Because not "everything" needs to be automated and streamlined. When we have robots that can fucking feed and wipe your ass for you, are you going to let them do it?
At the rate we're going, we're going to end up like the fat people from WALL-E. Life isn't a happy experience, when you can't keep at least some part of you sharp.
>>45549046
Because if you don't have at least the physical core book for you game, you doing it wrong.
