Haha Butte Hold

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>>45306153
Second for banshee

>>45291106
>What's the general thought on the new LAM rules? After the storm they initially generated, things seem pretty quiet, which makes me hope that people are at least content with them now.
I've done a couple test engagements and they finally seem to be working as intended.
They're still glass-cannons that have most of their effect as highly-mobile area denial rather than an effective combat unit, they can ram hard enough to take down a dropship, and one good fuck-up means you've lost it. Also, the BV bloat is now somewhat closer to their actual combat worth - you can tie up just about the right amount of BV with one, although killing enough enemies to justify the purchase (and/or the enemy's panic levels..) is much harder with the canon designs. Interestingly, an LB-5X-equipped VTOL seems to be the best weapon system to deal with LAMs, and costs miniscule fractions of the price - which amuses the shit out of me.

Are there variants of classic designs like the Vindicator, Cataphract and Raven that keep them viable in 3145?

>>45306517
>Interestingly, an LB-5X-equipped VTOL seems to be the best weapon system to deal with LAMs
That's true about basically any flying unit. Ever try using the Gossamer (XL) as an anti-VTOL unit? Pure, condensed death.

>>45306751
Definitely. The Vindicator has good sniping, mid-ranged and brawling variants, the Cataphract has good sniping and mid-ranged models, and the Raven -4Lr and -5X are basically all you could want from an E-Warfare platform.

>>45306751
>Vindicator

The vindie upgrades are pretty reasonable, it's just never going to be a flashy machine.

>>45306517
>They're still glass-cannons that have most of their effect as highly-mobile area denial

The fact that they're combat-viable at all is a complete fucking travesty.

Is there a faction that you really like because of its lore or something particular, but can't stand its locally produced mechs?

And is there a faction you can't stand lore-wise or maybe character wise or something, but you love their rides?

Just curious.

>>45307355
>And is there a faction you can't stand lore-wise or maybe character wise or something, but you love their rides?
The capcon, 150%

>>45307355
I had a lot of trouble with FWL 'mechs when I started, but being the hipster I was I chose to stick with them all the same. No regrets.

The Capellans have a lot of cool, fun 'mechs (Men Shen, Thunder, Koschei, Huron Warrior, Raven, etc) but their fluff really doesn't do it for me. Same goes for the Combine, actually, but I at least prefer their internal power struggles and super-bureaucracy over the blandness of the Confederacy.

>>45307355
Steel Vipers, in the first case. Their home-grown designs aren't bad, per se, but they just aren't my cup of tea. The whole angry introverted raging perfectionist thing, though, is much to my liking.

As for the second, does it count that I love the Toyama but am not big on the Blakists? That's about as close as I can figure to answer that one.

>>45307355
>Is there a faction that you really like because of its lore or something particular, but can't stand its locally produced mechs?
Not really, though that may be because I'm fine with most mechs. Closest would probably be the FWL, in that their lore is kinda neat but I've never really HAD to had any mech they localy make.

>And is there a faction you can't stand lore-wise or maybe character wise or something, but you love their rides?
The Republic. So many fun toys, but such an annoying faction. Magical creation from a bunch of states notorious for fighting over worlds and a cult of personality centered around Marty Stu, savior of the sphere? Yeah, no thanks. Also killed the WoB, which is another strike against them.

>>45307355
The Raven is one of my all-time favorite mechs but I fucking hate the CapCon.

I know this is a stupid question because I asked it in Warmahordes, but if I'm a beginner tabletop gamer what would be the price range of building a full Battletech army + rulebooks +whatever the hell else I need?

>>45307927
Introbox is $50 IIRC, and comes with 26 models, maps, and basic rules.

>>45307927
the starter set is like 40 dollars?
grab a copy of the old Battletech Master Rules (Revised) for maybe 10 dollars, tops for the more advanced rules, they should get you through about 95% of stuff. you can get a list of the few minor changes between that ruleset and the present one online, but it's almost all extremely minor stuff and it's way better than spending like 150 on the complete set of bloated, hardcover new rulebooks
as for minis, it's literally however much you want to spend; the game isn't WYSIWYG in any sense, hell, you can even use cardboard stand-ups rather than minis if you really want to

>>45308113
Yeah but pewter minis though

It's okay to spend $15 on toys of they're cool-looking.

I've been looking at some of the Iron Winds models featured on the Battletech website.

Honestly, I think the first thing I need to do is find a game store and find out if they play Battletech there.

>>45307927
>>45308056
Then if you want to expand from there, they sell Lance Packs with 4 'Mechs each for about 15$, the most recent core rulebook for about 20$ (or for free in the OP), and metal miniatures for about 10-15$ each.

>>45308113
>but it's almost all extremely minor stuff and it's way better than spending like 150 on the complete set of bloated, hardcover new rulebooks
And then you can have fun arguing about those minor rules with the other players, refusing to accept any changes because they're not what you're used to. Or at least, that's what the only other "veteran" player in my area decided to do.

>>45307817
>hating the Republic
>faction created under the dream of peace and marked to death because the utopia couldn't survive more than a few decades is somehow a Mary Sue

Worst post in the thread, holy shit. The Republic of the Sphere is one of the few factions that makes sense existing. The:

>Federation Suns
>Capellan Confederation
>Draconis Combine
>The Clans

All have less reasons to exist than the Republic, but your nostalgia goggles don't let you admit it

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>>45308272

>>45307927
$0. You can get most the manuals online and MegaMek is a free program that allows you to play even single player. You can even play against yourself if you wish. It handles all the math, all you have to do is play. Once the battles are getting boring, go to MekHQ and it can handle campaign record keeping. Now your battles can have a meaning besides who smacks who harder.

That should start you off. If you are still interested after playing around with those, then start to invest money.

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>>45301958
>Damn, seems like there's never been a Flashman IIC. The Nova Cats really missed the ball here.
Survey says...
>pic related.
Sure it doesn't have 3 LLs. Instead it has 10.

>>45308599
That's really helpful and useful, thanks.

>>45307556
You know, I actually feel kinda bad for FWL fans. With the Outreach conference and agreement to build mechs for the FedCom and Kurita, and the massive economic and tech boom it creates, it seems like they'll get some neat toys. Especially when you read that they're getting pieces of Clan tech as payment to study and try to reverse engineer. With all this growth in a diverse economy with plenty of good schools and motivation, you think now the Leaguers will get some great fighty robots.
Instead you have to contain your laughter at the Anvil, Hammer, Albatross, Grand Titan, Perseus and others.
I think the only solid ones they got were the Herc and Wraith.

Then you look at their neighbors, the Capellans: economy in the gutters, barely any mech factories left, intellectuals purged regularly or fleeing, and a population shattered and shuddering.
Romano walks out on the Outreach conference, gains nothing from it, no clan tech or money. No one really wants her realm involved.

But click your chopsticks three times and say Xin Sheng, and BAM! New solid mechs out the wazoo and built like crazy by a now dependable industry and educated population.

This shit is hilarious. I need to offer Coleman a new patio so he'll get the Falcons off Steiner's back.

>>45309319
The FWL at least got some of the best upgrades for the 3025 stuff, which softens the blow a little

>>45307355
>Is there a faction that you really like because of its lore or something particular, but can't stand its locally produced mechs?

Dracs. A lot of their factional mechs are either ugly and shit, or stupid weeb designs that are also shit. The Ninja-to is probably the one I dislike the most overall. Hatamoto-Foo gets a pass though. Those are pretty decent and actually look cool.

Of their cool mechs, the Blackhawk KU is shared with the Lyrans and FedSuns, and mechs that were nice in 3025 (panther, jenner, even the Dragon as cavalry kickers) don't really cut the mustard post 3050.

>And is there a faction you can't stand lore-wise or maybe character wise or something, but you love their rides?

Well obviously the FedSuns spring to mind, being the mary sue purefag faction and with a terrible overentitled fanbase (remember that guy here last month banging on about how the FedSuns haven't built a good mech since the end of the Jihad?). They undoubtably have the best mech selection of the Inner Sphere powers from 3050 onwards.

>>45309319
>Then you look at their neighbors, the Capellans: economy in the gutters, barely any mech factories left, intellectuals purged regularly or fleeing, and a population shattered and shuddering.
>Romano walks out on the Outreach conference, gains nothing from it, no clan tech or money. No one really wants her realm involved.
>But click your chopsticks three times and say Xin Sheng, and BAM! New solid mechs out the wazoo and built like crazy by a now dependable industry and educated population.

Oh look, this shit again.

Tell me, honestly: can you make this argument a second time without the 5x exaggeration and hyperbole?

Because then I'll take you seriously as a human being, and politely explain to you why you're mistaken.

>>45307355
This was a well-intentioned and interesting question, but now its devolving into bitching about factions again. Ah well, thanks anyway, anon.

>>45307355
Tough one, maybe FWL? I kiiiind of like them, but not really? Rarely touch their machines, save for the Awesome. If I like a faction I tend to be able to justify their shitty rides, though.

FedSuns gets the best rides come 3145, but the entire faction is just a heap of shit. All the models I wanted to pick up because they look good happen to be mostly FedSuns-oriented, like the Vulpes and Gunsmith.

>>45309502

Yeah, their Stalker and Hermes II and Quickdraw are all amazing.

Oh wait, all the really solid designs they got based on 3049 models are ones they exported to the FedCom. The Dracs very rarely got a hold of those designs, because haha Dracs.

>>45309589

Not even that anon, but he's right. The 4th SW completely gutted the CapCon's industry and Romano had the Mask purging her realm repeatedly due to paranioa. She left with virtually nothing from Outreach but this is all magically reversed under Sun-Tzu because he played everyone like a fiddle, had the FWL, WoB, Magistracy and Concordat give him everything he wanted, and all his plans worked flawlessly.

There are "explanations" for how and why it happened but that doesn't make them plausible or good, it just highlights how bullshit their sudden and complete 180 was.

>>45309589
Hey Coleman. Yeah it looks like someone pointed that shit out again.

>>45309950
>The 4th SW completely gutted the CapCon's industry and Romano had the Mask purging her realm repeatedly due to paranioa. She left with virtually nothing from Outreach but this is all magically reversed under Sun-Tzu because he played everyone like a fiddle, had the FWL, WoB, Magistracy and Concordat give him everything he wanted, and all his plans worked flawlessly.
Oh look, this shit again.

Tell me, honestly: can you make this argument a second time without the 5x exaggeration and hyperbole?

Because then I'll take you seriously as a human being, and politely explain to you why you're mistaken.

>>45310142
I'd say madcap is more likely

>>45310258
Even speaking in jest I feel like MadCap would consider this place beneath him because he can't flash his oh-so-cool avatars and signatures.

>>45310289
I'd normally agree, but he's apparently posted here in the past

>>45310388
can't stop a narcicist

Dante article.

With that done I'm probably through writing WarShip articles. I might take a look at Assault DS/PWS designs at some point in the future.

The problem with writing more articles is that the design space for them is limited, in part due to how few we have compared to ground units or even ASF. Once you've covered a dropper popper you've covered most Destroyers, Frigates, and Corvettes because the way you use them is similar. The Aegis and Conqueror cover the Carries we get and NAC-armed ships like the Cameron, Black Lion, and Kirishima. The McKenna article also covers ground that a Texas or Potemkin article would go into.

Obviously the _specifics_ of how they'd be used varies based on DS capacity or thrust profile, but the general usage is similar enough that the articles would boil down to things like "Yeah the Black Lion is like the Conqueror except it has less ASF, bring more in DropShips but otherwise you're still looking to fuck things up with your NAC-heavy weapons array" and the Potemkin would be "it's like a McKenna except with slightly less Bracketing and a shit ton more DropShips, bring a bunch of Pentagon/Achilles/Vengeance DSes on your collars and wreck people at long range just like a McKenna would" which means any further articles would be gratuitous and boring.

Still happy t discuss other designs though if anyone is interested.

How do you use shoulder turrets in megamek?
I'm trying to find it and just can't.

Also, for the Built for War pdf, I would like to know how well a Wrasslehog/Bearington superheavy would go? I have an idea, but am not sure about the viability.

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>>45310438

It would help if I posted the fucking thing.

Derp.

>>45310438
Have you done one on the Leviathan series?

>>45310438
Oh btw, updates from the MF thread:

>Kojak
"Wow, this is a fantastic article, really top-notch stuff. Between this is one and last, this author is totally killing it. Please convey my compliments to him or her and let them know I for one would love to see them continue contributing these articles."

>drakensis (re: corner posting)
"Ironically this is pretty much the inverse of how I prefer to layout weapons: capital weapons (except capital missiles) belong on the fore- and aft-sides while nose, aft and broadsides are dominated by anti-fighter bays with a sprinkling of anti-missile systems and capital missiles. This does leave blind-spots fore and aft but these are directions you don't want hostiles in anyway - angling your approach to optimise your TN to hit is just sensible."
Thoughts on that?

>UnLimiTeD
"Another superb article, covering all the angles and then adding some additional explaining.
Kudos on that, and forward the author thanks for the insights provided.
Unless you want to rapidly disengage afterwards, couldn't you well start a high speed engagement by turning around?
Using vectored thrust, I don't see why NACs (or N-Gauss) necessarily need to be front, when front is just the direction opposite your engines.
Am I missing something here?"

>sillybrit
"The maximum armor facing on a Conqueror is 215 points, which gives a threshold value of 22. The quad NPPC bays on a McKenna do 24 points of damage at maximum bracketing with a -3 hit modifier, thus the KcKenna's NPPCs cannot fail to threshold a Conqueror."

>>45309648

There is literally no Battletech-related subject that won't devolve into that. Everything - EVERYTHING - eventually comes back around to, "your faction is bad because X, mine is good because Y."

Nothing will stop it. Ever. There is no solution and no hope.

>>45310665
Oh look, this shit again.

Tell me, honestly: can you make this argument a second time without the 5x exaggeration and hyperbole?

Because then I'll take you seriously as a human being, and politely explain to you why you're mistaken.

>>45310554

Nope.

I find it hard to take the Lev seriously, it's a blatant fapfest for the Ghost Bears. "Here, have the biggest WarShip ever built. It is tougher than five McKennas combined. It about the same firepower as a Potemkin stapled to a Black Lion. It is almost nuke-proof. It has 300 ASF on board, and that again on its DropShips. The Lev II could literally slaughter entire SLDF Squadrons, and in 3145 would kill half the ships in the universe combined. The only slight area of vulnerability it has is its cargo mass, but that doesn't matter on the tabletop so it doesn't really count."

Then they get the Lev III which takes the Lev II and dials everything up, making it absolutely nuke-proof, increasing the capital weapons, allowing it to carry more ASFs and more PWSes (coincidentally the GBs have access to the best Clan assault DSes and PWSes, funny that?) and it now has the cargo capacity to overcome the only slight weakness of the one that came before it. Any of the ships the Leviathan II couldn't kill in 3145, the Lev III would.

They're both just insane and should never, _never_ have been released into the canon environment unless everyone was going to get ships that could compete with it.

Hey guys, here's an AU/what-if question that I don't think I've seen before:
What if the Black Warriors managed to dodge the WoB and blew the whole jihad scheme wide open right before it was about to go off? What would happen?

>>45310881
Could all six Theras take out one Lev II or Lev III?

>>45310940
No one believes them because they're pirates?

>>45310613

Yeah, they were right on the Thresholding thing. I legit thought it was 25% per bracketing level, and that's the way our group has been playing it since StratOps came out.

5% per level doesn't sound like much, but a max-bracketed bay on the McKenna does 22 damage under rules as written and 15 the way we play it. The additional damage loss makes bracketing more of something you have to think about than a total no-brainer, if you can Bracket for -3 at 22 damage there's no question as to whether it's worth it. If it's -3 for 15 you'll miss Thresholds on a few ships, but with 22 there's only a handful you can't Threshold.

We tried a game with 20% per Bracketing modifier and the consensus was that it made Bracketing too powerful. Bules are rules but we're happy to do it wrong :P

>>45310955

You'd probably need three Thera groups to win, and the Leviathan II would almost certainly kill all the Theras and Eagles before finally dying to ASF swarms.

A Lev III would kill more of the fighters than a Lev II but the end result is still the same.

That you need to spend several times the Lev II's tonnage in WarShips just to bring enough ASFs to kill it kind of throws the problems with the ship into stark relief.

I've said before that the Lev II/III is like releasing the Hellstar into the ground game if the next-best thing to it was an UrbanMech. It really is that bad.

>>45311010

24, not 22, I had Threshold numbers on the brain for the Conqueror.

>>45310881
>They're both just insane and should never, _never_ have been released into the canon environment unless everyone was going to get ships that could compete with it.


Clearly, the solution is that *nobody* should get WarShips.

(That's not an opinion; more "observation")

>>45310744

Lol. It's funny because you're being unreasonably hyperbolic while the person you're quoting has, given the previous multiple years of threads, a relatively legitimate point. While not *every* topic devolves into faction shitflinging, certainly the vast majority do.

>>45310613

Oh and for Unlimited, the High-Speed Engagement rules are incredibly abstracted and are more to simulate the feel of a space battle without actually having a space battle. It doesn't allow for the level of detail/granularity you get from actually fighting it out on the tabletop but it is a lot faster and less complex than a space battle with all the optional rules and a lot of ships and fighters involved.

For drakensis, everyone has their own opinions on how to design ships. I personally favour the way the Aegis does it, with something in every arcs so crits knock out your weapons slower overall when they start happening.

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So are the Wolves in Exile dead?

>>45311237

>Clearly, the solution is that *nobody* should get WarShips.

It's certainly CGL/FanPro/WK's solution.

Really it's just that there's been so many generations of design "philosophies" and rules.

Power creep in WSes is really evident between the SLN-era ships and 3057+ ones. As soon as they decided not to have massive cargo bays all semblance of balance went out the window and the Lev II/III just carry that to extremes because they're 25% heavier than a McKenna with like 10% of the cargo allocation.*

*Numbers not exact but close enough to be illustrative.

>>45311010
>>45311340
Thanks for the answers bro

>>45310485
>>45310665
I believe that my subject won't devolve into factionfaggotry... asking how to use supposed features of megamek...

>>45311237
>While not *every* topic devolves into faction shitflinging, certainly the vast majority do.
I've found that the least contentious topic is of course silly game anecdotes, with posting custom mech designs second. AUs are surprisingly good about this as well, probably because "shame that canon disagrees" shitposting doesn't work. Warships are also pretty good as long as nobody mentions the Lev II

>>45311655
Huh, missed that. You want to right click the mech, choose "rotate turret" or whatever, and click the new facing. It's a pain in the ass, but it works.

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>>45311736
Oh, thanks.
And how do you all feel about... the Varangian?

>>45310665
Oddly enough, the discussion of the Vulpes last thread didn't turn into that, though that's probably because there was actual gameplay mechanics to talk about instead of a bunch of nebulous clouds of opinions running into each other.

How come people don't hate the Wolf Empire more? If anyone exists because of fiat it's them.

I want to run a 3025-era game, no clans, technology is limited and slowly becoming unrepeatable.
The 3025 blueprint manual is a dream you strive for with you hastily repaired Battlemechs, scavenging the part and weapons of your enemies.
What books do I need to play in this era? The wiki gets confusing with all the rulebook rewrites and new releases.

What's the deal with Davion just giving up Quentin in the war of '39? Didn't it have like 4/15 of their 'Mech production lines? And all their Atlas, Victor and Marauder factories?
Even if Hanse conceded '39 as a draw, he could have easily dropped the Davion Guard on Quentin at the end to hold it.

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>>45307355
>Is there a faction that you really like because of its lore or something particular, but can't stand its locally produced mechs?
Not really, although I could see where that'd be true of the Dracs for a lot of people, and for the Mariks if you don't like pic related..

>And is there a faction you can't stand lore-wise or maybe character wise or something, but you love their rides?
Caps and FedSuns. The "or something" is the inevitable shitstorms that surround both and get in the way of me playing my FUCKING GAMES in the FUCKING LGS without some cheeto-stained fucknugget coming in and whining about some imaginary source of butthurt from 17 years ago and yelling at me and/or my opponent for playing the "wrong way". And then invariably refusing when I offer to lend them 'Mechs so we can play "right" later.

*ahem*
It never smegging fails, although that's probably a product of playing near Catalyst HQ in one of the biggest game stores in the country. I just get so sick of people who don't ever play trying to shit up my training games with newbies or goofing off with my friends.


>>45310438
>Obviously the _specifics_ of how they'd be used varies based on DS capacity or thrust profile, but the general usage is similar enough that the articles would boil down to things like "Yeah the Black Lion is like the Conqueror except it has less ASF, bring more in DropShips but otherwise you're still looking to fuck things up with your NAC-heavy weapons array
You know, you could do a few generic articles, discussing combat roles in Aerospace and "featuring" one ship - but giving specific hints and tricks for using similar ships in those roles. We could also use some discussion of the new first-generation and second-generation ships from the 2765 and historicals, although I have yet to run into anyone who's seriously played that era yet.

>>45312684

A: Because reasons (the Clan invasion was going to take a large chunk of the Dracs' factories, and more had been lost to the FRR).
B: It only has a significant number of production lines if you go strictly by the old version of TR 3025 and the old FedSuns SB, way more factories exist in the Suns than what those sources cover.

>>45312600

People bitch but then it gets pointed out that the Wolf Empire ground itself down to almost nothing and the majority of their units in FM 3145 are actually shit-tier planetary militias with conventional infantry and really old vehicles rather than being a viable combat force. If the FWL or Lyrans didn't have other problems to deal with either of them could casually annihilate the Wolves.

The Bears have way more fiat going their way than the Wolves do. Unless your objection is to the Wolves existing at all, in which case opinions are opinions.

Hey guys, you know what we haven't done in a while? Post-one-review-one custom mechs

>>45310485
>How do you use shoulder turrets in megamek?
>I'm trying to find it and just can't.
Right click the unit during the firing phase, one of the options is turret rotation.

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[Muffled Lyran noises]

>>45313515
I love doing this, but lately I have been making vees instead. Still count? Sadly I am on this "cheap ass vee" kick so a lot of my stuff is utterly boring.

Toss something up though; I'll give it a look.

>>45312855
>Caps and FedSuns. The "or something" is the inevitable shitstorms that surround both and get in the way of me playing my FUCKING GAMES in the FUCKING LGS without some cheeto-stained fucknugget coming in and whining about some imaginary source of butthurt from 17 years ago and yelling at me and/or my opponent for playing the "wrong way".
I suppose I should have expected this just how prevalent this shit is on the internet, but it seems no place is safe from the sperging of angry grogs. I am truly sorry you have to deal with those fucknuts.

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>>45315367
ok, here's a wolverine
post your tank whenever and if I'm still awake, I'll review it now, otherwise I'll do it tomorrow morning

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>>45315680
Hm.

LB 10-X and SRM4 are a pretty decent combo. Does it not have JJs though? 55 ton trio gotsta jump, mang. Other than that, looks like something a Merc might get done after a contract where upgrades are part of the compensation to give his Wolvie more oomph at range and more sandblast up close. Would be particularly effective in the late 3050s when XL engines abound and CASE isn't something that always shows up like it should.

>tank
Eh. It's a basic bitch. Meant to be an alternative to the Scorpion for isolated outposts and whatnot, where resupply is not as reliable. SFE would make it infinitely better but then it wouldn't be CHEAP.

>>45316003
>Does it not have JJs though? 55 ton trio gotsta jump, mang
normally, I'd agree, but the drac wolverine doesn't, so there's precedent, at least.
it's supposed to be a st.ives design, built on chassis imported from the fedcom, in the wake of the CCAF's mass-production of conventional armor; it's entire purpose is ''fuck you, Po''

as for that tank, it's pretty decent, i'd probably take it over a scorp on account of not exploding and a bit more firepower.
the lack of an anti-infantry weapon worries me a bit, though.

>>45309545
>Hatamoto-Foo gets a pass though. Those are pretty decent and actually look cool.

Mah otouto. I've always thought the Hatamoto-Chi looks the best of the Drac "have you seen this relic from Old Terra? It's called G Gundam" line of 'Mechs. The only way it would look better would be if it got another fingered hand instead of the Charger dildo hand.

>>45316045
>fuck you Po
Ah, well knowing that puts it a bit more into perspective, and with turreted adversaries being it's main design concern, the JJs aren't missed as much since they don't really offer much in the way of evasion against getting shot by a tank, though they are still nice for getting into position and coping with terrain, something that can give you a decent advantage against a tank that can't do so.

>lack of anti-infantry
Yeah a lot of my designs suffer from that; I typically do most of these cheaper Vees with support variants that cover those flaws, or write it off as "they are meant to be used in conjunction with your own infantry" which is a bit of a cop-out I suppose. Haven't decided on the loadout for the production variant yet but I'm not sure if I want to leave the SHS as they are and just do a weapons swap for sake of ease and fluff it as a "universal chassis/easy maintenance" thing or get a bit more bold with it. I'm toying with one that uses Infernos and MGs, with a Medium Laser or two as "big guns".

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>>45315680
It really just doesn't feel like a Wolverine without the jump jets, SW-era variants notwithstanding. That said, it's decent enough at the Wolvie's "mixed-close support" role, and certainly better than the Scorpions it otherwise emulates.


>>45316003
Decent for AV work (or maybe BA defense in massed lances), but when I buy a low-tonnage tank most of what I'm thinking is riot control and militia work. They'd certainly support a dual-purpose tank well against pirates, though I might be tempted to just rip out one of the MLs in a Scorp ML variant for a flamer and some bolt-on armor.


Here's my take on the classic Com-1A concept, updated for the modern era.

>>45316125
maybe a fuel cell variant with more armor and a MG?
not that much more expensive, but a pretty big performance increase
>>45316134
>It really just doesn't feel like a Wolverine without the jump jets, SW-era variants notwithstanding.
yeah, fair enough. I'll tinker with a JJ model.
you could drop the second ML and half a ton of FF to get a shad movement profile,but I'll have to do a bit more messing about for a 5/8/5

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>>45316134
>>45316154
here's the 5/8/5 one; by using endo, I can keep all 6 SRMs and the JJs. have to use standard armor, though, which might not be actually a bad thing from a logistical perspective

>>45316134
I'm torn on the LPPC on this. On one hand, it's probably the most efficient way to give it a long-range direct-fire weapon, but on the other, I feel like even though the COM isn't usually a jumper, in this case maybe 4 JJs and an ER Medium Laser might be the better bet. I get that it is supposed to have more of a 1A vibe, but I'm, just thinking in terms of using your very limited tonnage on something so small as efficiently as possible. Do you have a reason for the LPPC besides the 6 extra hexes of range? I mean maybe that's reason enough; it's not a bad little bastard by any stretch.

>tank
Yeah as stated above I am looking into a close support variant that would give you 3/1 per lance just for dealing with infantry, if the customer desires.

>>45316154
>fuel cell
That's a possibility for a later variant, yeah. Bumps the cost by 130k Cbills, but looking at it, the SFE only costs ~60k more than that, and is an even bigger performance boost, so I dunno. On smaller tanks like this I think the SFE outstrips the FCE because it's only a little more expensive, though for fluff reasons FCEs are way easier to build, so that alone is probably enough reason for me to roll with it over an SFE. I'm kind of hesitant to put any kind of explodium on a tank that's meant to not explode like a Scorpion can as a selling point, but sadly for ICEs and FCEs the 'Mech Flamer isn't an option, so it'd have to be MGs most likely. I'll fiddle with it some.

Keep in mind the company is a smaller firm with somewhere around Periphery-grade production capabilities so it's not going to have access to a lot of niftier stuff until it's been out for decades.

>>45316188
I like this version much better, and it's just fine with ES as long as it's a production model. As a field refit it'd be a problem (if I recall those rules right) but production? Sure 'nuff.

>>45316349
>Keep in mind the company is a smaller firm with somewhere around Periphery-grade production capabilities so it's not going to have access to a lot of niftier stuff until it's been out for decades.
having the ICE variant be standard until say the mid-50s and then switching to SFE would be reasonable; the 50s saw an absolute explosion in fusion engine production.
as for ''periphery-grade'', by 3058 even the taurians were building XLFE hovertanks, so a SFE wouldn't exactly be unreasonable

>>45316519
Yeah that's the idea, and when XLFEs and whatnot became common the Cbill thing kinda went out the window too, so it becomes less of a logical fluff tool than it is in the 4th SW era and earlier.

>>45307355
Always the Cappies.

I love Cappie 'Mechs, but can't stand them as a faction.

>>45307291
you can fuck right off.

>>45316247
>Do you have a reason for the LPPC besides the 6 extra hexes of range? I mean maybe that's reason enough; it's not a bad little bastard by any stretch.
There's a couple reasons. First, I see the PPC as a sort of sidegrade to the LL. With Clantech, a cERLL would be a shoo-in, but an IS ERLL just doesn't have the punch to justify all the other sacrifices I'd have to make. Switching to an LPPC gives it a range boost while letting me significantly upgrade its missile punch - nobody likes getting a 10-round SRM shot to the balls in any era, and this also lets me compensate for the lost power on its energy weapon with limited missile capability without using Clantech on something so fragile.

Secondly, it's meant to team up with all those sexy, sexy Wolfhounds the Lyrans are making. Solid short-range punch, enough speed to hang with them, and the ability to snipe or go fuck up vees and infantry that are posing an obstacle to the WLFs.

>>45316349
>sadly for ICEs and FCEs the 'Mech Flamer isn't an option, so it'd have to be MGs most likely. I'll fiddle with it some.
You could always go with an SRM-2 to diverge it from the Scorp a little more. Tear gas or incendiaries and Inferno are classic crowd control gear.

>>45317291
>SRMs
I was considering Infernos for the alternate config, which I might do anyway then have them stop making it when the SFE version comes out because it's pointless to have two when you can now make one that does the same work.

>LPPC
Ah alright, I was just curious. Fluffy answers are good answers.

>>45312855
>...and yelling at me and/or my opponent for playing the "wrong way"

I'm curious; how were you (or your opponent) playing the "wrong way"?

>>45315680
It's a lot like the Royal Shadow Hawk, but in non jumping Wolverine form.
Other than the jumping, main difference being the SHD-2Hb has twin SSRM2s instead of an SRM 4, and a bit less armor.

>>45317402

I'm gonna guess it was by not playing a 3025-era game where hopelessly outclassed Capellans were getting curb-stomped by Davion forces.

>>45317160

Not him and not how I'd have phrased it, but LAMs are back to being OP. They can get around the turn mode restriction pretty easily, and that's what they were hoping would balance the movement rate of AM mode.

If they changed it to Jump X2 as their WiGE cruise speed for AM mode they'd be pretty much perfect, but as is any force that isn't heavy on Pulse or Flak weapons is really going to be up against it. The TMMs are too high and the LAMs can break LOS, determine enemy arcs for return fire, and control range too well.

>>45307556
>combine
>super-bureaucracy

This wounds my Lyrian heart. We aren't paying three secret services to kill each other just to be outdone on the bureaucracy-front by a bunch of neofeudalist cosplayers.

>>45310881
>They're both just insane and should never, _never_ have been released into the canon environment unless everyone was going to get ships that could compete with it.

The Wall is a thing now. That Leviathan can be sunk in the blink of an eye, with no survivors, most likely.

>>45317593

The Leviathan II and III are plot devices in all but name.

The Wall is a literal plot device. And the Republic are best buddies with the Bears.

I mean you can take one down with KF interference if you really want to go there but in practical terms the Lev II and III are invincible. They also mean there's no credible way for the Bears to be threatened while they exist since nobody can muster enough force for an invasion and nobody can stop the Bears from lopping off as much territory as they decide they want to have on the offensive.

>>45317559
>Lyran

Oh hey you're back

>>45318240
>Lyrian

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Did anon ever get situated with his MekHQ aggressive recon force thingy?

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Battlebump

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AU question time:

Katherine Steiner-Davion has a brain aneurysm a while after signing the 2nd Star League treaty, say right after Task Force Serpent has already left and Bulldog has begun.
Nondi Steiner, absolutely horrified and saddened, kills herself.

Where might the Lyran state go from there?
And how about the timeline itself?

>>45322138
This almost certainly means no proper FCCW, for the first thing, which means trouble for the falcons and CapCon, most likely. The lack of KSD-related scheming might slow down the collapse of the second league, which has all sorts of interesting possible side effects

>>45322138
Adam Steiner is made Archon, or Peter somehow comes out of exile as Archon. Victor doesn't wage a Civil War when he gets back, but instead picks up the pieces that were never covered up and presents his evidence.

One of two things could happen

Arthur is still assassinated by the Wobblies, but as Victor had suspicions linking them to Morgan, he blocks their admittance to the Star League. Jihad starts (perhaps less explosively, as the warships that were present at Tharkad and New Avalon wouldn't be there), and a Star League coalition to retake Terra might succeed, as the Word didn't have 10 years to shore it up.

or

With no war to monger, Victor and Focht retake Terra after returning from Huntress and no aloha snackbar occurs.

Either way, the Wars of Reaving happen, but the Republic doesn't.

With no Republic to harbor hate against, the Capellans, backed by Loren "XIN SHENG XIN SHENG" Coleman, proceed to take over the Inner Sphere using Star League troops after the Chancellor gets reelected as First Lord.

>>45312603
For TROs, TR:3025 and maybe TR:3026 (or TR:3039, though it moves the focus away from scavenging)
For basic gameplay rules, the OOP Master Rules (or an Introductory Box, or an OOP Compendium, or even the ancient Manual:Rules of Warfare; Total Warfare has a ton you don't need)
For repair rules, the OOP Master Rules (or the OOP Compendium or Manual:Rules of Warfare, the UNrevised Maximum Tech, or even the first or second editions of the MechWarrior RPG; Strategic Operations has a ton you don't need)

>>45312684
I can't say which regiments were in a position to do anything, but even with four production lines, Quentin was the smallest and least prolific of Davion's known 'Mech production sites. I forget which year they got Kathil's Marauder factory up and running, but that site might've made up for the loss all on its own.

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>>45316095
>The only way it would look better would be if it got another fingered hand instead of the Charger dildo hand.
Or if they'd mounted a weapon in the left arm that was firing out of said "hand". Enter the Hatamoto-Kutabare!

>>45319560
I did.

It was glorious

So i finished my advanced recon company. I've also written up a bit of a backstory for it, was thinking of maybe turning it into a novella. It would be a clan invasion era reboot from the "Declassified" section, a story that has only recently been made availible to the public.

What are some 'Mechs endemic to the Capellan March?

I'm doing a Hasek OpFor.

>>45325585
i was wondering if somebody might want to take a look at it and let me ghostwrite for them. I don't really care if I get the credit I just want to get read.

>>45325636
Also, I accidently a whole pizza, just now.

So fullll....

>>45325585
>>45325636
Maybe send it to BattleCorps? They actually accept unsolicited fan writing and occasionally publish it

>>45325612
Davion standard stuff, Vindies with very large FS logos on them.

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>>45325675
that face when you want to disco, but you ate too much pizza

>>45325706
I want someone to read it, not stick it in a drawer

>>45325612
Era?
The Marauder, Garm, Caesar, Hatchetman, Cestus, Nightstar are all good local choices.

>>45325741
True. Fanfiction.net gets a decent readership, as does the fanfic section of the OF, though I totally understand if you don't want to deal with that

>>45325612
The Templar was privately comissioned by the haseks, so probably plenty of those. Cataphracts would also be reasonably common. The capcon used to have a lot of thuds but lost most of them in the 4sw, so presumably a bunch of them ended up in the march.

>>45325785
>>45325888
Oh yeah, and speaking of salvage they've got those Shattered Ravens as well.

>>45325801
I can't get on the online forums

>>45326061
Yeah, they're down right now. Should be back in a week or less. In the mean time, try FF.net

>>45326061
it keeps saying its an attack site

>>45326097
fuck that, if I'm going to go through the effort of finishing something I'm not going to just stuff it in a closet and forget about it.

>>45326098
Yeah, it's being hacked ATM. Lord knows why or who

>>45326061
You can get to the forums directly if you type the address in, but...with the lack of transparency about what's going on you might want to stay away from the site for now. And if you share your battletech email/password with other sites, I'd recommend changing them.

>>45326141
As I said, put it up on FF.net, people'll read it there. Later on, repost it to the OF if you feel like it

>>45325712
>>45325785
Do they tend to a certain weight bracket?

>>45325888
I honestly forget the Templar was commissioned by them. Did it's manufacture survive the Jihad?

>>45326181
>Did it's manufacture survive the Jihad?
I think so?
I don't really remember; the suns are my tertiary faction so I'm not really up on that stuff

>>45326181
>>45326215
Naw, factory got nuked and the design got replaced by the Templar III.
With the original Templar having been in production from 3062-3069 and the Templar III having now been in production since 3100...I'd say the original model is probably going the way of the dodo.

>>45326180
how hard is it to gain a following of FF.net?

>>45326310
Ah, yeah, it was the III that was confusing me

Question: I have a custom mech design that I want to be available to more or less everyone. Where should the factory be located for maximum exports? This is Clan Invasion-era

>>45326938
FWL-shit got exported pretty heavily.

>>45326938
FWL was pretty much selling to everybody.

>>45326967
>>45327029
The Eternal Marik

>>45326938
FWL, mostly.
If it's lower-tech and mostly mercenary, the taurians work.
If it's an assault, I'd actually say st.Ives would be best; they build a number of assaults and sell widely

>>45317472
>Not him and not how I'd have phrased it, but LAMs are back to being OP. They can get around the turn mode restriction pretty easily, and that's what they were hoping would balance the movement rate of AM mode.
>If they changed it to Jump X2 as their WiGE cruise speed for AM mode they'd be pretty much perfect, but as is any force that isn't heavy on Pulse or Flak weapons is really going to be up against it. The TMMs are too high and the LAMs can break LOS, determine enemy arcs for return fire, and control range too well.

Was that any change at all from the IntOp Beta rules for them? Did anything change from beta to release to make them stronger? I remember reading the beta rules and being not very impressed.

How's the dragonfire? I've been randomly assigned one for an upcoming game and I'd like to know /btg/'s experience with the design. It *looks* good but I've never used one before

>>45328194
It's fragile, but has good ranged firepower.

Do you have a C3I variant?

>>45328236
Nope. 3058 stock model

>>45327253

They were basically rolled back to the Quickstart rules with the addition of turn modes, but can ignore turn modes with a PSR.

I know people weren't happy with the IO Beta rules for AirMech mode but honestly, CGL should have just said "We know that the current rules makes fighting in AirMech mode a poor choice. THIS IS INTENTIONAL. AirMech mode is intended to allow LAMs to cover ground quickly for recon or raiding but in exchange it is not very good for much else.

All anecdotes and data indicate that LAMs are used exclusively in AirMech mode because of their movement range. There are few reasons, if indeed any reasons, to use any other mode as an LAM, and while fluff indicates that LAMs are jacks of all trades but masters of none, previous rule sets have made them extremely powerful in AirMech mode. So powerful in fact that at least on the ground they were masters of all trades. If you need to engage ground targets, do so in 'Mech or ASF mode.

Yes this means you are at a relative disadvantage to 'Mechs or ASF of a similar mass. THIS IS ALSO INTENTIONAL. Remember the jacks of all trades, masters of none thing? Yeah."

Instead they're back to having huge TMMs and a massive movement range, so you'd better stock up on LB-Xs and Saggitaires if you expect to see LAMs.

And people on the OF are *still* bitching that the IO final rules have castrated LAMs compared to other unit types. I don't even know, man.

>>45328194

It's a 4/6 75-tonner with heavy armour. The XL makes it a bit more vulnerable when the armour cracks but that will take a while.

In the meantime you have a GR, an LB-10X, a Large Laser (ER if you have the variant model) and a pair of MPLs.

It's brutal and IME under-appreciated. In a solo fight, close while firing the ranged guns and then exploit the hole punchers with Cluster rounds and your MPLs. In a lance, be the bodyguard, no-one will want to close with the LB-X, LL, and MPLs but you can add your GR to what everyone else is doing.

>>45326141
>>45325801
>>45326556
You want a real following, albeit from nutjobs? Add ponies and post it on fimfiction. Of course, that is a desperate course of action that one should only resort to if everything else has failed. FF.net and the OF when they come back up will be fine.

>>45328520
>They were basically rolled back to the Quickstart rules with the addition of turn modes,
And +1 to the quickstart AMMs. Quickstart had them at +2 cruise +3 flank, IntOps has them at +3/+4.

Plus, if you want to ignore the turn modes with any sort of reliability, you need to pony up for a good pilot. Which makes the already expensive LAMs even moreso.

I personally feel they're balanced, and take the fact that the pro-LAM fags are bitching about them being UP and the anti-LAM fags are bitching about them being OP is a pretty good indication that they are just right.

>>45328860

I really don't think you can argue with them being overpowered.

The canon ones aren't too bad but the problem is that those don't even scratch the surface of what LAMs are capable of. The Stinger, Wasp, and Phoenix Hawk are as annoying as fuck and perform well above what their BV suggest in an environment without many Pulse/LB-X weapons.

It's once you get into 7/11/7+ custom designs and 4/6/6 ones that the system breaks down completely because they've got the speed to play hit-and-run better than any other ground unit and in the case of 4/6/6 machines better firepower than the few 'Mechs moving half as fast as them.

On the one hand you can't fully account for what people will do with custom designs. On the other hand no other custom designs (except custom WarShips, which are a whole other issue) break the rule set anywhere near as badly.

I'm OK with the TMMs and turn modes, the core of the rules aren't too bad. They just really should have made LAMs go Jump X2 for WiGE cruise instead of X3. They'd still be generating +4 base TMMs easily but wouldn't be able to dictate every other aspect of the engagement while doing so as easily as they can. AM mode currently puts LAMs back into the "jacks of all trades, and masters of all trades" basket.

I think it's also telling that all discussion revolves around AM mode. Pro-LAM players want to exploit it, anti-LAM/balance-seeking players know bullshit when they see it.

In nearly 20 years of BT I have never once seen an LAM out of AirMech mode. Hearing about it is like hearing about Nessie sightings. I do not expect that to change unless the rules do.

>>45329130
>The Stinger, Wasp, and Phoenix Hawk are as annoying as fuck and perform well above what their BV suggest in an environment without many Pulse/LB-X weapons.
So just like any fast light when the opponent has no idea how to deal with them? Should I stop using Scarbii and Ebonies because you only brought a force to kill gausswalls?

>It's once you get into 7/11/7+ custom designs
Not really viable without XLs and other weightsavers.

>and 4/6/6 ones that the system breaks down completely
I will give you that letting them take IJJs was a mistake.

>On the one hand you can't fully account for what people will do with custom designs. On the other hand no other custom designs (except custom WarShips, which are a whole other issue) break the rule set anywhere near as badly.
cLRM missile boat vees and cLPL+Tcomp boats say hi.

>I'm OK with the TMMs and turn modes, the core of the rules aren't too bad. They just really should have made LAMs go Jump X2 for WiGE cruise instead of X3.
Unfortunately CGL is allergic to rewriting record sheets, so that was never a viable solution.

>anti-LAM/balance-seeking players
Stop assuming they're the same thing. Get off your fucking soapbox.

>In nearly 20 years of BT I have never once seen an LAM out of AirMech mode.
Given 19 of those years were with the old LAM rules, and quite frankly given your attitude towards them I doubt you've seen them in the last 1, that's not much of an indication of the current rules, now is it?

>>45329657

>So just like any fast light

Other light, fast movers are typically limited to an attack range of ~10 hexes if they want to make hit-and-run attacks. LAMs have almost triple that range. They aren't "just like any fast light," so don't pretend they are.

>Not really viable without XLs and other weightsavers.

Like Composite Internal Structure which LAMs may as well have since if they've lost all their armour on any location they're cruising for a bruising any way, and which we have canon examples of?

>cLRM missile boat vees and cLPL+Tcomp boats say hi.

Both are a lot easier to overcome than LAMs. Vees are very vulnerable to crits, the cLPL has range overlap issues with other weapons of similar mass like the Snub-Nose PPC. Besides, if you stick a good pilot in something with Clan PPCs or ER Larges they're more dangerous to most opponents, LPL+TC is monstrous against fast movers but can be outperformed elsewhere.

>Unfortunately CGL is allergic to rewriting record sheets, so that was never a viable solution.

They did it with Ferro-Fibrous rounding and R-E Lasers. There are a lot less LAM sheets than ones that had Ferro rounding issues or R-E Laser heat and BV.

>Stop assuming they're the same thing.

Kek. It's literally the same pro-LAM crowd complaining their favourite machines are still nerfed and still the same people posting from a balance perspective that it isn't the case. I've never had a single good experience with LAMs and I'm not gonna deny that but having an innate do not want reaction does not make me blind to the glaring balance issues in IO.

>that's not much of an indication of the current rules, now is it?

The rules where there's literally no reason to fight on the ground in 'Mech mode since AirMech mode provides Partial Wing heat sinking, an insane movement range, can trivially generate +4 TMMs, and can determine range and enemy arcs 100% of the time?

Yeah, must be an irrational hatred of LAMs. Couldn't be anything else.

Gas the LAMs western mechs only now

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>>45306153
Noob question: I am a new user to Skunk Works, can the program build super heavy mechs and how do I set it to do that if it can?

>>45331487
No, it can't. Currently SSW is dead development wise. I kind of wish they'd release the source if no one will develop it. MML can build them however.

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>>45317402
>I'm curious; how were you (or your opponent) playing the "wrong way"?
Modifying published scenarios to make certain ones less of a curbstomp; playing games set in 3025, 3055, or the 3080s (depending on the git), using fluffy and historical lists that don't conform to the stereotypes of a force from thirty years ago, using information from the post-1995 retcons for anything, or even playing assymetrical scenarios in the first place. All of these have happened at least once in the last bloody year.

>>45325612
>What are some 'Mechs endemic to the Capellan March?
"Shattered" Ravens, for starters. Most captured Ravens got the EWAR gear ripped out for an LL.
In the 3015s, they began replacing most of their Lights with Valkyries, and standardized on 1-2 flamer variants per company of Valks. They also swapped a lot of the Mediums in second-line formations for Valks, freeing them up to be redeployed with the Fusiliers (who are implied to have taken some pretty brutal damage in the end of the 3SW and beginning of the 4th).

Meanwhile, Michael was deliberately sabotaging/diverting supplies from the AFFC and blaming the losses on the Crucis March. Id make most units other than the Fusiliers have more of the classic Davion ShitMechs as a consequence. They also get a disproportionate amount of the Cataphracts - apparently, this was intended as a deliberate insult to the Caps, along with assigning other Cap salvage to the region.
Blackjacks are more common in the FS than most other places, and there are apparently rather a lot of the "Mechbuster" PPC variants kicking around; they overheat like whores but in the late SW they're fun as Hell.

As far as other stuff, they get the Cataphract line at the end of the 4SW and start hammering that bitch for all it's worth. They also own the Caesar line, and it's actually quite a nice little 'Mech. They also have Victor and Crusader lines captured in the 4SW.

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>>45326181
>Do they tend to a certain weight bracket?
Light and Heavy, especially during the 3050-3060 timeframe - the AFFC kept diverting their heavier units (along with everyone else's) out to the Clan Front, but between the shitload of aforementioned Valks and owning something like seven Heavy lines by that point, they managed to get off considerably better than the Drac March. Mikey was pulling away the cream of the resupply crop for his Sixth Syrtis, and in the few scenarios they appear in it's almost all Heavies (he drives a MAD-3D himself). Thuds, Cruds, and Riflemen abound - though frankly, the JaegerMech is just as likely to be in a Hasek unit as the RFL.

>>45331648
I honestly have a hard time believing there are this many people who really really care about battletech running around.

>>45331648
>playing games set in 3025, 3055, or the 3080s (depending on the git)
You know, I once ran into a "dark age only" psudogrog, once. I was actually kind of amazed at his existance

>>45332026

You'd be surprised. They probably don't play much any more or follow the game now themselves but if SOMEONE ELSE IS DOING IT WRONG where they can see it they'll damn sure let you know all about it.

>>45331541
Ah, thank you. Where can I get MML?

>>45332218

The Sourceforge page for MegaMek had them too last time I DL'ed it.

>>45332457
>http://megamek.info/
Thanks again! Will try it out soon!

>>45330047
>It's literally the same pro-LAM crowd complaining their favourite machines are still nerfed and still the same people posting from a balance perspective that it isn't the case.
People talking past each other.

>tfw finally giving up SSW/SAW to use MML
I mean I'll keep them around for posterity but if they are deadware well... I guess I should give up the ghost(s).

>>45332619

It's not so much that. I personally, will not stop shitting on LAMs and the people who play them until they're completely and totally removed from the universe and all mention of them is retconned away. Why? Because LAMs are that bad for the game. They've never had not-OP rules, and the people who like them are, without exception, insufferable cunts who would be playing a force composed entirely of Superjumping Stealth LAMs with Tcomped, pulse, sub-capital lasers and full loads of laser-guided bombs if they could.

They contribute nothing to gameplay, lore, or the Battletech experience, and they only exist because the original writers weren't clever enough to leave out the single most identifiable part of the property they stole from the Japanese. There is not a single redeeming quality to the unit type, and the game would lose nothing if they were wiped away, along with everyone who's ever played one.

I promise you. I PROMISE you. Every time LAMs are brought up in a BTG thread from now until the heat death of the website, you're going to hear how terrible LAMs and their players are for the game. Deal with it.

>>45333047
I still use SSW because MML's a pain in the ass to actually use if you have more than a few dozen customs.

>>45333057
The sad thing is that I agree with your content if not the phrasing

>>45333057
In b4 ass-pained LAMfags cry about it

>>45333082
I am noticing MML and SAW giving me different Cbill values for things. I assume that MML is more current though, so likely the correct value.

I lost all my SSW files in a format so it really doesn't matter which one I use, honestly. Starting from scratch either way.

>>45333057
>>45333166
>>45333212
Congratulations! We're not LAMfags, but you've motivated us to include a LAM in the /btg/RO.

>>45333057

I wouldn't go that far, and I'm >>45330047.

I don't think it's impossible to create a balanced rule set for LAMs, it's just that what we have certainly isn't it. I prefer the Beta rules, and I really don't buy into the complaints about AM mode being shit at fighting. Why is that such a bad thing? It's not like you can't transform to 'Mech mode or ASF mode. If they were purely limited to AirMech mode then sure, that would be bad, but that's not how it is and complaints about it expose the underlying problem; they want a massive movement radius with all the combat control that grants and the TMMs that accompany it.

Complaints about other light, fast units are total red herrings, nothing else combines the ability of AM mode to literally cross a mapsheet and a half whenever they want to make a hit or a fade, which means defenders can do jack shit about them. Not like you'd hit them from beyond about 15 hexes any way between range, TMM, and other mods any way.

As a unit type I agree they don't fit into the asthetic of the game, at least the way it's developed after TR 3025. I'd have preferred to see them removed entirely too but that's not gonna happen.

Best we can try for is a rule set where using an LAM doesn't mean you're well on the way to winning the game even before rolling initiative on turn 1.

There could hypothetically even be not-cunts who want to use LAMs. It could happen, though I've yet to really see it.

NEA/his group come closest though I've seen him argue the Beta rules were underpowered and that the THB rules were fine in the past, so...

>>45333312
Oooh. Make it a taurian build exclusively sold to mercenary commands of battalion size or larger so that you can piss off all of the paragraph butthurtfags in one go

>>45333393

You overvalue movement and repositioning ability. It doesn't matter where you can go if you're easy to kill and can't do anything worthwhile when you get there.

>>45333393
>NEA/his group come closest though I've seen him argue the Beta rules were underpowered and that the THB rules were fine in the past, so...

Man, I was explicitly staying out of this.

THB rules used only during an FCCW or later-era actually *are* pretty much fine. The difference between an 11-hex jumping PHX LAM (no, you don't get 15 actual hexes of jump) and a 9-hex jumping IJJ Phoenix Hawk are honestly minimal. On a battlefield with all the ways to minimize the TMM, you can deal pretty simply with a Superjumping LAM. Or, y'know, ignore them, because they don't carry enough payload to actually do anything. However, AT THE TIME THEY WERE RELEASED, the THB rules (and all other SuperJump rulesets) put LAMs squarely into the "immensely OP" range. Mainly because when you're using IntroTech weapons and 4/5 gunners, *anything* that can jump 8+ hexes into Heavy Woods may as well be unhittable (see also: Spider).

So yeah, THB rules are fine. From a certain point of view. From all the others, they're not.

The Beta rules are just as bad in the other direction. You think that because a LAM can move a map-and-a-half that it's both totally immune to enemy fire AND that makes it a god unit. I feel that it's going to get blown away en-route and that it's simplicity itself to ensure that an attacking LAM is going to get fired upon with its "zero" TMM; and if - IF - it gets there, it's looking at a +4 to-hit penalty AT BEST. Neither of us is going to convince the other under any circumstances.

And no. I don't give a single shit if a custom unit *can* be built that's broken. If you're playing pickup, a) you shouldn't have LAMs in the first place, and b) you shouldn't be using customs in general. If you're playing a campaign where customs are in play, you should have a GM slapping your shit for putting 3 cLPLs and a T-comp on a LAM. In either case, your issue with the potential for custom LAMs is fictional. Now kindly leave me out of your implications.

>>45334160

>easy to kill

By having armour comparable to 'Mechs that mass? Yeah, real vulnerable.

Opponents have to bring Clan Pulse boats or a lot of A/Cs or LB-Xs with Flak or Cluster ammo to deal with the ability of LAMs to dictate range and generate absurd TMMs. Which in turn means clumping your units for overlapping AA fire and, hey, more reasons to play Turret Tech!

>can't do anything worthwhile

Man wat. The Phoenix Hawk LAM-HK2 has firepower largely equivalent to a TR1 Wraith on a platform that's more than twice as fast. If that's not able to do anything worthwhile then the problem lies with you. Other LAMs outgun things in a similar mass bracket and which prioritise speed as well.

>difference between an 11-hex jumping PHX LAM and a 9-hex jumping IJJ Phoenix Hawk are honestly minimal

>2 hexes of movement and an additional +1 TMM along with generating no heat for jumping is minimal

>You can ignore them the same way you'd do a Wraith or the Snubbie-PHX, it's cool. It just means they'll either assrape you on their own or be able to capitalise on what the rest of their force is doing for the same end result, but it's cool, LAMs are totally balanced and shit.

>a LAM can move a map-and-a-half that it's both totally immune to enemy fire

An LAM that doesn't want to be hit can spam +6s between range and facing under those rules, break LOS, or move out of range of return fire. They may as well be unhittable. Can they fight well? No, which is why it'd be the form you used for recon passes, travelling to logistical dumps, or spotting for artillery. That doesn't mean the mode is useless, it's just not preferable for combat.

Which I'm OK with because we can either have a rule set that discourages abuses of AM mode or a rule set that encourages them to the point that there's no reason not to be in AM mode. Ever.

>Implying implications.

I didn't need to imply shit, man. You've said this all before and you said the same stuff again.

>>45334292
hey NEA, I have some questions related to your area of expertise;
first, I have some ideas about some not-quite-WarShip craft I've though up and their effectiveness, and some fairly vague questions about a space combat matchup

the two kinds of craft that I'm thinking of are basically DropShips with proper capital weapons (none of that ''subcapital'' nonsense), and what amount to DropShips equipped with a compact-style but cheaper K-F drive and possibly naval weapons, but unable to mount DS collars, in essence sub-corvette vessels
I guess the question is wither the latter, assuming they can land on planets and cost about as much as a JumpShip does under current rules, would mess with the setting too badly.
(like everybody else who looks at aerospace, I've decided to drop DS and JS prices down and increasing their numbers significantly)

the other question is basically about how bum rushing a proper cruiser or frigate with what amounts to a bunch of regular cargo DS with capital weapons slapped on haphazerdly would turn out.
say, a Mule with a pair of NAC/20s or a NGauss or something.

basically, I want to run naval stuff around the clan invasion, and this stuff is meant to give the IS a slightly better chance in space than on the ground, but not by much.

thoughts, suggestions?

>>45334445

SubCaps are honestly better balanced for this, arc weapon limits and custom builds are going to result in monstrosities otherwise. You get monstrosities like the Castrum even with Sub-Caps, but those aren't as bad as what a ship that mass could've done with bracketing and NAC/10s rather than SCCs. Custom naval vessels are way, way too easy to break the setting with, so really be careful. If you want something like that I'd recommend introducing the Leopard/Union/Mule PWS and Overlord-A3 early.

Landing on planets doesn't matter much if they still have the normal transit point limits. If they can jump into atmosphere, yeah, the setting is broken. If not, don't worry, it's the least of your problems.

Proper WarShips will always annihilate PWSes/Assault DSes so if you're gonna use them, use them in numbers. Be aware that anything mounting a HNG or pair of NAC/20s can do significant damage to a lot of canon ships since their armour is so shit.

Finally, the IS already had the Clans beat in space according to stuff around Prince of Havoc. It was only their WSes that they couldn't handle, and that was in fleet actions rather than 1v1s because a lot of the 3057+ ships don't waste as much mass on cargo as SLN/Clan ships aside from the Conqueror and Leviathan II/III do so they have more weapons and armour as a result.

TL;DR: You're really gonna fuck the Clans up the ass if you have lots of DSes with big guns. Once you have space supremacy you can all but guarantee ground supremacy as well with orbital intelligence (BT sensors are good enough to detect fusion engines in low-power mode and determine what they're mounted on via their emissions, never mind if they're operating at full power) plus orbital artillery.

If they're around in lower numbers it's not as big a deal but the Clan fleets were relegate to transport and cargo duty after Turtle Bay anyhow.

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>>45334445

Unless your DropShips can mount Capital-scale armor, it's not going to work super well. That's the thing that tends to get DropShips killed real quick - pretty much every DropShip can take between 20-40 Capital-scale damage in a location before they implode. Meanwhile, 40-60 point Naval bays aren't exactly uncommon. Basicially everything the size of a Lola III on up mounts at least a few 20+ point bays.

I mean, don't get me wrong; if the IS was willing to throw 10-12 DropShips at a Destroyer, and 30-40 at Heavy Cruisers and Battleships, they'd probably get the job done. Target saturation is a real thing. But in practical terms, they're probably better off loading capital missile launchers instead of NACs, throwing a fuckton of nukes downrange until the tubes run dry, then break off in a lot of vectors so that only a few of them can be chased down.


>>45334439

There is outright nothing you can say to convince me of your position. Likewise, there is nothing I can say to convince you of mine. I'm out. Enjoy the pic.

>>45334581
>Custom naval vessels are way, way too easy to break the setting with, so really be careful.
yeah.
this is for a campaign I'm planning to run and GM, so I'll be designing the ships and avoiding that sort of nonsense

>>45334581
>It was only their WSes that they couldn't handle, and that was in fleet actions rather than 1v1s because a lot of the 3057+ ships don't waste as much mass on cargo as SLN/Clan ships aside from the Conqueror and Leviathan II/III do so they have more weapons and armour as a result.
the whole thing is that the IS doesn't have proper WarShips, so this stuff they built as stopgap stuff in the 40s is what they're throwing at the clans in an attempt to slow their navies down
>>45334606
>throwing a fuckton of nukes downrange until the tubes run dry,
nukes aren't really in play here; they're still fighting the clans ''clean'' like in the canon invasion, there's just space stuff

also, the IS won't have nearly enough of these things to sustain those kind of ratios, so hopefully that'll keep the odds more or less in the clan's favor

Man I dunno shit about LAMs but I'll probably give them a spin once they get put into megamek.
But one thing's for sure, LAMs really bring out the worst in people.

>>45334606

That's a glorious image. How long do you think it would last on the OF if I posted it in response to everything Hellbie posted?

>>45331648
>even playing assymetrical scenarios

Wow. He had a problem with that? Geez... guy needs to get out more. Asymmetrical battles can be amazingly fun and challenging.

>>45334721
>how long would i last if i continuously provoked the new site admin on the website he runs
gee i dunno buckaroo

>>45334676

I'll try a response that isn't a "worst of".

It goes back to the original LAM rules back in the early 90s. If you were old enough to play back then, LAMs really were the worst thing ever, and the asshole up here (>>45333057) is absolutely representative of the response to LAMs from back then.

Revisiting them a few times since, I lean slightly toward NEA's camp in that they don't seem totally broken given how much easier hitting "fast" units has become in recent years. I also irritated at the people who post stuff like,
>I don't think it's possible to create a balanced rule set for LAMs [so they shouldn't be part of the game] or,
>they should be such terrible units at combat that nobody wants to use them in a game explicitly about combat encounters

But I don't have the breadth or depth of experience using and watching players use LAMs that others do, so I generally stay out of it. I do wonder at the specifics of the games NEA and >>45334439 are playing, and I wonder if that could be coloring the responses. For instance, if you're playing on a 6x6 board setup, the ability to reposition at will seems a lot more valuable than if you're on a 3x3 setup (IIRC which is the standard that NEA's group uses). If you're bringing blind X BV forces to a pickup game, LAMs would be way more shitty to use against someone than if you're in a campaign with a GM who can modulate the challenge to the specific group.

But I think that if CGL is going to err, they should err on the side of "make something useful". The Interstellar Ops rules really, really weren't. I played two games with them, and the LAM in each game was literally useless BV. It got focus-fired to death in 1 turn because it could only get the small to-hit bonus from angling in the first game. In the second it stayed evasive basically the whole game and hit with one cERLL shot the whole time, because if it ever left evasive and entered LOF it would have died.

I guess that's overpowered? I dunno.

>>45334656

Ehh...

There are already a lot of problems with the Invasion as written and I'm unsure how you're planning to deal with those. Most worlds defended by a planetary militia would have had enough field gun artillery and conventional fighter support to annihilate the listed Clan bids, and the tech shock a lot of those sources describe makes no sense with the War of 3039 and Helm Core retcons to tech spread. Planets that had actual military forces, especially RCTs on them, are gonna require entire Galaxies.

Then there's the question of escalation. The Clans didn't do anything with their WSes other than ferry supplies and smash Turtle Bay, and were a bit put out that they couldn't use their shiny awesome toys. Giving them an excuse to break them out might not be the best of ideas given how much the Clans can escalate.

Clan Wolf alone has 1 McKenna, 1 Texas, 2 Cameron, 1 Potemkin, 1 Lola III, 1 Volga, 3 Black Lion and 2 Liberators (ignoring their Carracks and Vincents). The Falcons are gonna fuck shit up even more with 1 Texas, 1 Cameron, 2 Congress, 1 Nightlord, 3 Black Lion, 9 Aegis, 1 Liberator, and 1 Sovetskii Soyuz.

I'll stop there but the Viper, Bear, and Cat fleets are also very large and very powerful. The Wolves and Falcons had bargained for additional Raven WS support too.

It's an area where you can escalate if you really want to but I'd really suggest you don't go too crazy. If you piss the Clans off they get very war-crimey, even the Wolves weren't above wiping out a city to show who was boss and the last thing you want to do is give the Bears and Jaguars more excuses.

Space stuff is really hard to deal with. It's fun (I wrote the WS articles and I enjoy playing it) but using such assets as they logically should be really messes with a lot of stuff that's fundamental to the setting and to how the typical game goes.

>>45334843

>>45334439 here. I think the issue comes down to a fundamental disconnect in how people expect LAMs to work.

I don't see them as being something to be used in the typical smash-em-up brawl game, but rather as something to be used in scenario or campaign play the way their fluff suggests. Fly somewhere in ASF mode, go in fast in AM mode so the defenders can't relocate and you're under their AA grid, and either conduct your recce run or raid and then GTFO. If you need to fight harder than what the IO beta rules would let you in AM mode, fight in 'Mech mode. Either way, dust off before enemy reinforcements arrive. In that environment I think the LAM rules are fine. Yes, AM mode is bad for fighting other 'Mechs. Don't use it to fight other 'Mechs. Either GTFO or transform to 'Mech mode, your most likely opponents in that role are vees and infantry any way. Maybe recon 'Mechs but you can fight them on fairly even footing in 'Mech mode.

Other people want to use them in more normal games as a tactical rather than strategic asset. From that standpoint they're not gonna like the IO beta rules if they like LAMs and the new rules are gonna be much more their cup of tea. However the new rules return LAMs to being OP, which is great if you like LAMs but not so great if you either don't like them or want them to be balanced if they're gonna be used as tactical assets rather than for scenario or campaign play.

Like you say with the Beta rules they could die fast if people tried to fight in AM mode with them. I'd contend trying to go 1v1 against a 'Mech in AM mode is doing it wrong though. That's not what they're for, but it's what a lot of people want them to be able to do.

>>45334926
>Most worlds defended by a planetary militia would have had enough field gun artillery and conventional fighter support to annihilate the listed Clan bids
>The Clans didn't do anything with their WSes other than ferry supplies and smash Turtle Bay, and were a bit put out that they couldn't use their shiny awesome toys.

This is BTech's universal central conceit: It's a game about big stompy robots fighting one another. The above makes perfect sense, but then the game stops being about 'Mechs and starts being about conventional modern warfare (artillery and air superiority) + space ships.

At that point, IMO, it stops being BattleTech.

>>45334926
>>45335066
I agree, which is why I'm including that other classic aerospacefag thing, that is to say strong planetary anti-warship defenses, s that parking in orbit and NACing anything that moves unfriendly-like isn't feasible, but landing mechs to take over is
basically, I see aerospace stuff as an interesting prelude/sideshow to the mech stuff and want to bend things to keep it that way; this stuff is mostly to counteract the clan WS advantage and keep things on the shoulders of the mechs

>>45333047
Speaking of SAW, where the heck do you find it? Every time I go looking for a download source, the only thing I find is a Sourceforge site with no files.

>>45335764
it's packaged in with the last SSW release zip file

>>45333312
Make damn sure to design it as a recon vehicle. Mount all the spiffy electronics possible in it, armor it as much as possible, and undergun the shit out of it. More than 3 ML worth of firepower is too much.

Jeeze, I didn't know that by having fun, is suddenly playing the game wrong. I will immediately commit hari-kari but instead of cutting myself open with a knife, I am going to eat an ice cream sandwich bar. Oh wait, I'm doing it the wrong way aren't I? Fuck off.

>>45336677
Who are you even responding to lol

At Origins you get into an elevator with Medron Pryde, FedComGirl and Terminax for a ride down from the second floor to the main concourse below. In that brief time frame, you can kill one with your bare hands before the door opens and the other two escape. Which one of them do you pick?

>>45336862

Somebody above. Does it matter? I'm still playing it WRONG.

>>45336969
I don't really know any of these people, but the guy with Pryde in his name is probably a huge faggot so I'll pick him.

>>45336969
I have no idea who any of those people are, and your obsession with killing people you don't like over your boardgame fandom is fucked up.

>>45336969
I don't go to origins, and if I did would just take the stairs to go down one floor instead of waiting for an elevator.

>>45336969
I resent your assumptions in regards to my killing capabilities and that I could not bring three people down in that time.

>>45331648
>the Fusiliers (who are implied to have taken some pretty brutal damage in the end of the 3SW and beginning of the 4th)
Well the 5th was destroyed, I believe, in the war. The other two weren't involved and I think the only damage they took was political.

The captured lines in 4th Succession War for the Victor and Crusader, which planet were they on? I'm pretty sure the Cataphract is Tikonov.
The Blackjack variant is the BJ-3 on St. Ives, right?

Just double checking things before I move forward. Thanks for the details.

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>>45337006
>>45336677
anon are you ok

>>45337310
>The captured lines in 4th Succession War for the Victor and Crusader, which planet were they on?

AFAIK know the Quentin line was the only one for ages so they couldn't have captured one then. But because of this, the Suns had more Victors than anybody else.

Both old and new fluff states that after the loss of Quentin in 3039, they had to start importing from a HildCo plant on St Ives, with new fluff adding a Tao Mechworks plant getting restored on Styk in the Sarna March. They lose Styk in Guerrero, and after the Compact gets Xin Sheng'd, GM/Blackwell starts cranking them out on New Valencia in the Crucis March.

The only Crud plant I know of getting captured in the 4thSW was the Lyrans snagging the FWL's Brigadier plant on Oliver.

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>>45336677

It's a wargame. It's about war. It's not supposed to be fun. Just like real life, war and the military should make everyone involved in them completely miserable.

>>45336969
Who the fuck is terminax?

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Leo Showers because he smells (8(|)

>>45336969
Kill myself, as you should do, and make it look like they did it, so they all go to jail

I'm reading through the LAM rules from IO, and they don't seem particularly bad or over powered. I don't know why there's so much drama over them that couldn't be solved by not playing with asshats who abuse them.

>>45339982
>don't know why there's so much drama over them that couldn't be solved by not playing with asshats who abuse them.
Welcome to how you solve literally every battletech issue

>>45339982
Ditto.

>>45335055
>Like you say with the Beta rules they could die fast if people tried to fight in AM mode with them.

Problem is they have always died equally fast on the ground, so that "Get out of AM mode!" idea would need some way to make mech mode/ASF mode not horribly shit. Which I notice nobody ever tries to address, it's always bitching (on both sides) about AM mode.

>>45336969
literally who

>>45339982
>I'm reading through the LAM rules from IO,

Beta rules or full version? Which one you're reading actually matters.

>couldn't be solved by not playing with asshats who abuse them.

If you avoided all the asshats in the Battletech community, you get left with 1-2 people per city to play with. Which means you have to leave the Battletech community for the larger gaming community. After weeding out all the asshats there, you get left with 5-10 people per city. Good luck. Our hobby genre just attracts terrible people, and we have to deal with that.

One way to deal with it is making sure companies don't get away with producing shit that people can abuse. For Battletech, LAMs are first on that list (which is why they shouln't exist), followed closely by Manei Domini, RISC weapons tech, and all Clantech.

>>45342617
See, this is something that I'll never understand. People make such a fuss about That Guy, sperglords and grognards but in all my years of gaming I've only met a few people that I couldn't tolerate. All of the players in my local scene are super chill, with the worst of them "only" being minmaxers. Even then, they're pretty transparent about it nowadays so everyone's on the same page whenever they game with/against someone.

And this is speaking from experience; I've lived in half of the major cities in Canada and a few American ones and I've never had trouble either finding or setting up a well-populated and relaxed group.

Also I really wonder what's going on in your games if you think Clan and Manei Domini stuff are OP in a BV-balanced environment. Never played with LAMs or RISC stuff so I can't speak there.

>>45342617
Anon, you are part of the asshats and you haven't noticed

>>45342871
>RISC stuff
Usually they have interesting effects but really huge drawbacks
The only broken pieces of RISC tech (the jammers) were fixed with the final IO version

>>45343157
APDS is now the best RISC, I'd argue. Especially with Thunderbolts around.

>>45343103
Spot on analysis...

Good rule to live by: the more it appears to you that everyone is identical, the more likely you are to be projecting.

>>45342617
>For Battletech, LAMs are first on that list (which is why they shouln't exist), followed closely by Manei Domini, RISC weapons tech, and all Clantech.
Put hyper-lasers and clan weapons on all the LAMs, got it.

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Requesting a 3050 update to the P-Hawk Lam.
Far Country made me like it and now I want to fight with it.

Please include xl engine and an AMS if possible.

>>45344460
>xl engine
Not allowed on LAMs, sorry

>>45342871
If he's like most "clantech ruined the game" players, he probably played a shit game back in 1995 and hasn't stopped whining since.

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I never thought about it before, but with the Jihad wrecking so many mech factories and Stone getting folks Sphere-wide to cut armament programs, were the 3030s-3070s the golden age of planetary militias having BattleMechs?

>>45342617

IO full version. I've never seen the IO beta version.

We're definitely not quite on the same page of what consists of asshat-ery. ANYTHING can be abused, and if you're letting someone get away with being a shitty person that's got nothing to do with the tech their using.

>>45341359

'Mech and ASF modes aren't horribly shit. They just spend tonnage on conversion gear that dedicates units spend on other things. That's the price they pay for flexibility no other unit can match. If your suggestion is going to be removing most or all of the mass needed for conversion equipment or suggesting they be able to use XL engines, Endo/Ferro, Stealth, or a lot of other things that are sensibly banned for LAMs then politely put no. Just no.

They're not as good as a fully twinked 'Mech or ASF in either of those modes, but that doesn't make them *bad.*

Not every unit type has to be as good in direct combat as a 'Mech. VTOLs, Infantry, or Hover Vees can do things a 'Mech can't but if you try to use them in a stand-up fight they'll crumple badly. I don't see why AM mode has to be epic top shit. If you're using LAMs the way fluff suggest they should be, they'll be fighting infantry or light vees at best, maybe light 'Mechs at a real stretch.

They shouldn't be charging into the teeth of concentrated enemy forces under that paradigm, but pro-LAM players want to use them that way and for them to have the advantage when doing so.

>>45344460

Check TR 3085. There are SLDF variants now.

>>45345971
That is the best news I have heard in a while. Thanks anon!

>>45345971
>If you're using LAMs the way fluff suggest they should be, they'll be fighting infantry or light vees at best, maybe light 'Mechs at a real stretch.

That's not at all what the fluff suggests. Witness Youngblood's engagement against the Dracs on Pacifica. Or the SLDF's massive numbers of LAMs dispersed to their frontline forces (CAAN units had a battalion each, Light Horse units had between a company and a battalion each, and pretty much everyone had at least some..the issue of Royal units having LAMs is unresolved, since Royal units postdate the book where this is written by about 25 years). And no, none of this has ever been retconned away. TRO3085 has the opposite, in fact, talking about a number of upgraded LAM designs deployed by the SLDF in large numbers.

LAMs were an objective step FOWARD from Mechs, and might have replaced light and a whole lot of medium mechs completely if not for their cost and manufacturing difficulty. They were outright better units, in the same way that Clantech was outright better than 3039 tech. They were certainly not failures or dead-end units; had the SLDF continued, they were certainly looking to expand their LAM development programmes. Their limitations were only - ONLY - in cost and complexity; issues which could be solved with the continued existence of the SLDF.

If you're going to argue that we should respect the fluff, then LAMs definitely should be a "good" tactical battlefield unit, in addition to being a good strategic asset. IO Beta made them as useful as an SR-71 in a dogfight, which is definitely NOT what the fluff was, and CGL has admitted to that fact with the full IO rules.

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>hey, senpai. how do you want your Turning Points?
>leave the Atlas section, remove everything else!

and here it is, enjoy the first Touring the Stars e-pub!
and also the last one I'll provide you, one of the worst epubs they manage to release

http://www.mediafire.com/download/znfwwm1i1yq694f/E-CAT35SN201_BattleTech_Touring_the_Stars_Lone_Star.pdf

>>45346242
>militia defends with a battalion of Mackies
Oh hell yes.

>>45344460
>Requesting a 3050 update to the P-Hawk Lam.

Assuming the -HK2 version (most common):
1) Double Heat Sinks. Because they're a field refit during the 3050 era, StratOps be damned.

2) Swap the MGs and ammo for an SPL, plus an AMS if you have to have one. But getting the SPL is the important bit; strafing infantry in a supply dump is a primary LAM mission parameter.

3) Maybe go with an ERLL if you feel like it. Move the hell back to the Right Arm where it's supposed to be, and deal with the asymmetric ASF gun profile.

4) If you ever get your hands on ClanTech, swap out the MLs for Clan ERMLs; since they're essentially "pocket large lasers" and the targeting system can clearly handle a standard large laser (hey they even have the same range brackets!), this isn't unreasonable. And if you took a LAM against Clanners and lived against the barrage of cLPL fire, you deserve a treat.

That's all. Don't strap on a shitton of pulse lasers and a TComp. Don't try to weasel your GM into letting you have Prototype AES. Do a straight-up weapon swap, with a DHS upgrade. That's what 3050 upgrades are about.

Well, plus adding XLFEs to *everything*. But since LAMs can't have those, it's a moot point.

>>45346395
Don't forget the NARC Beacon on anything that ever had a missile launcher.

>>45346151

The SLDF's doctrine was to use them as harassing elements, raiders, and recon to target enemy logistical elements, a role in which they were quite successful if for no reason other than the numbers the SLDF were throwing them around in.

After the fall of the Star League the Houses were using them like 'Mechs a lot of the time, especially in the later Succession Wars, if for no other reason than because it's all they had to work with.

I see no reason to discuss individual battles as being relevant to discussing their role unless you want talk about things like the HCT-3F/-5S making all Clan military equipment totally obsolete because Kai used one to bury the Falcon Guard. The important distinction here is what LAMs were intended to be used for, not what some dick-swinging canon sue with 1337 skill levels managed to do on this occasion or another.

The IO Beta rules were fine as long as you didn't want AM mode to be the kind of brutal monster previous rule sets made them. If it was used to cover ground for recon or raiding, as intended, it would have been fine. Once you get to the target you can fight light infantry and vees well enough in AM mode by exploiting movement to take advantage of range brackets and enemy arcs for return fire or directing your attacks to weaker locations on Vees, or transform to full 'Mech mode and rip the place up before going back to ASF or AM mode for the escape phase.

They never needed to be able to facetank entire Lances (arguably entire companies with a large enough playing area and SW tech) to perform the role their fluff describes.

Also, your SR-71 example is shit. It wasn't even vaguely intended for combat duty, it's a pure recon and experimental bird.

>>45346469

They still fixed the IO rules, which is admitting that making them useless combat units was the wrong thing to do. You are wrong. Deal with it, fuccboi.

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>>45346469

You the Anon I was arguing with earlier in the thread? I don't want to waste a good day arguing again, so if you are, let me know and I won't bother.

>>45345971
>If your suggestion is going to be removing most or all of the mass needed for conversion equipment or suggesting they be able to use XL engines, Endo/Ferro, Stealth, or a lot of other things that are sensibly banned for LAMs then politely put no. Just no.
I was only suggesting trying to find a way to make the mech/ASF modes not shit if you want the AM mode to be as useless for combat as it was under the beta rules. And, quite frankly, under those rules having access to SOME weight savers aside from composite internals (which does horrible things for your survival odds when you're, at best, a 5/8/5 or 6/9/6 medium that has already lost 10% of their weight) and small cockpits would not break them at all, since the airmech mode that gets your panties in such a twist sucked so bad nobody would voluntarily stay in it so they're just objectively worse mechs.

>>45346469
>I see no reason to discuss individual battles as being relevant to discussing their role
So evidence of them being used in ways that contradict your assertions about how they should be used is conveniently noncanon? Yeah, no, fuck off.

>>45346616

The IO Beta rules were changed because people complained long and loud about them, not because the didn't work as the authors intended.

Same sort of thing happened with R-E Lasers.

I don't give a shit about your special snowflake unit that you think has to be better than everything else. Game balance is a thing. I viewed LAMs as fine under the Beta rules because AM mode was evidently for something other than direct combat.

But no, people just had to force the square peg into the round hole and complain it wouldn't fit, so we got the IO Final rules where having an LAM provides a massive advantage unless your opponent deliberately or accidentally selected a force with a ton of weapons that deliver flak or have to-hit bonuses.

Congrats, you won and LAMs are back to being OP cheesefests.

>>45346242
>Big Pond
>Other Pond
Truly, this world was mapped by the most inventive cartographers of their time.

>>45346841

>weight-savers

They already do. LAMs can use iJJs.

A 50-ton 4/6/6 LAM that misses max armour by all of 1 point has 10 tons to spend on weapons and equipment. A 3/5/5 one with near-max armour has 14 tons. Both provide more free mass than an XL and standard jump jets.

They aren't meaningfully slower in 'Mech mode than a 5/8/5 or 6/9/6 mover because of their jump, but realistically if they're on the ground they're going to be in AM mode for combat any way.

>So evidence of them being used in ways that contradict your assertions about how they should be used is conveniently noncanon?

Not non canon, just not relevant. Unless you also want to argue that anyone who has a Hatchetman should be able to beat a Clan Cluster too. Notable pilots and notable battles are notable because they defy expectations and are incredibly rare, not because they define the baseline you can assume from that type of combat equipment.

>>45346958
>>45346242

>18 pages
>$3
>writing is passable but dry
>talks about scenarios but doesn't even Warchest them, much less detail them
>this is the blueprint for their new micro-content series
>ilClan on hold, all we have to look forward to is this stuff, XTR Primitives, XTR Succession Wars, and the SW Historicals

Yay.

>>45347030
>Notable pilots and notable battles are notable because they defy expectations and are incredibly rare, not because they define the baseline you can assume from that type of combat equipment.

There are three in-depth fluff depictions of LAMs being used in combat. The aforementioned Jeremiah Youngblood, the asshole in Far Country, and the battle with Horse and Peri Watson and Evil Twins I and II in "Freebirth."

In each of those, LAMs are capable of going toe-to-toe with significant opposition.

So I suppose this means that every depiction of combat with LAMs doesn't count because you don't like the outcome/pilot/situation/something else...but *all depictions of normal Mech combat do*, right? Nobody is seriously suggesting that Kai blowing up his own Mech and triggering sympathetic detonations of pre-placed explosives is the "standard" way to use a Mech in combat. We've got a TON of other depictions, by snowflakes and those who aren't snowflakes, showing us how Mechs are supposed to be used. Kai's technique in the Gash the *exception*. Not the rule.

Well, by all of the fluff we have available, LAMs being able to fight reasonably well against standard Mechs *is the rule*. Nowhere do we see that whenever a LAM gets into a normal Mech's LoS, it's forced to take so much evasive movement that it *can't* fire, or else fire inaccurately and eat so much accurate incoming fire that it's fucked. Yet that exact combat paradigm is *exactly* what IO Beta Rules gave us. It's not consistent with the fluff, and it doesn't make sense anywhere but in your own head.

I'm sorry, man. But IO Beta Rules went too far in the wrong direction. They went there for the right reasons, but they did need to be brought back to center.

Or I suppose you could make a few dozen dummy OF accounts and play the game you're accusing LAM supporters of doing: screaming incoherently at the writers until they give in and "fix" the rules the way you want them. Your choice.

>>45347030
So if we ban LAMs from using IJJs, they're fine?

>>45347030
>Both provide more free mass than an XL and standard jump jets.
But that's wrong you fucking retard. 6/9/6 XL has 11 tons spare as a LAM, 5/8/5 XL has 14.5. That's with the exact same armor load you have.

>but realistically if they're on the ground they're going to be in AM mode for combat any way.
I was specifically talking about how under the IO *Beta* rules giving them extra weightsavers would be fine because the AM mode would not be problematic, and the mech mode needs the help. You seem to have some sort of mental block where you say under those rules AM was not viable for combat, but when someone talks about using them under those rules somehow AM magically becomes combat viable.

>But muh contrived enemies and-
Shut the fuck up. People are going to use them however they see fit in games regardless of ruleset, and that means fighting mechs most of the time. There is CANON SUPPORT for this sort of thing, weather your autistic butthurt ass cares or not. You can NOT keep weaseling out of them utterly fucking sucking in mech mode from a gameplay standpoint by saying they'll only ever fight something that nobody ever actually plays with.

>>45326556
Using nothing but FF.net? Difficult. That said, post it on SB or some other sci-fi forum and link back to your FF.net profile and you can build a pretty large following if your work is any good.

>>45346958
>Truly, this world was mapped by the most inventive cartographers of their time.
This is a universe where whole planets have been named Anywhere, Here, A Place, and Great X. You're a little late to this realization, anon.

>>45347398
Or, for that matter Diik, standing for "damned if I know"

>>45347304

No, because they're still capable of jumping. A 5/8/5 LAM can move as a 15/22 WiGE. Nothing should be able to move that far and still carry a payload.

The only way to really "fix" LAMs is to ban them entirely. Short of that, something like the combination of these would fix them so that nobody would take them, which is close enough to solving the problem
>every WiGE MP spent generates 1 heat
and
>spending WiGE cruise MP gives you a +3 AMM, flank MP is a +4 AMM
and
>LAMs in Air-mech mode do not generate a TMM at all, but do get the +1 bonus for being an airborne VTOL unit
and
>LAMs cannot mount more than 10% of their total mass as armor.
and
>LAMs cannot mount any weapons or equipment, including double heat sinks, which take more than 2 critical spaces. the only exception are engines and gyroscopes.

What is this Anti-TSM warhead I keep hearing about and where is it found?

>>45347443

Clearly, they didn't know Diik.

In fairness, though, we could either have place names which we can pronounce and remember, or more standard "sci-fi" names that nobody can pronounce or remember. I'm reminded of a certain rant...

"The Dark Lord Walter, wielder of the Black Sword of choppery, was opressing the peoples of Pittsburgh. Then King George Washington enlisted the help of the Warrior Princess Rapunzel. Sadly, in the Land of Yellowstone she fell under a spell and slew the Steelers, Knights of Pittsburgh. At last the heroes freed the princess, traveled through the kingdom of Barstow, and confronted Walter in the land of Spokane."

>Sure, it sounds stupid, but you have to admit: your players will be able to remember, pronounce, and even spell all of the important people and places.

>>45347463
Or maybe you could play with reasonable people.

YMMV.

>>45347534

If you're group is taking LAMs, they're not reasonable.

>>45347463
>>spending WiGE cruise MP gives you a +3 AMM, flank MP is a +4 AMM
Just pointing out, they have this now.

>>45347174
Micro-content? This thing didn't even qualify as pico-content!
Why the flying fuck did the brain donors at Catalyst think the best way to start a new product line was to give us a writeup for a DEAD WORLD?

>>45347463
Luckily for your handlers, LAMs are a completely optional part of the game and you'll NEVER play against them if you don't want to

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>>45347566
No anon, you are the unreasonable one.
And then anon was a Mani Domini.

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We did this before last year but would anyone be interested in brainstorming NPCs? Names, personalities and their rides.
If anyone around right now was here last time, it was for a solahma trinary and we had some really great entries.

I'm working on a Capellan March planetary guard company now, in the 3060s and cruising to the eve of the Jihad.

>>45347532
>>Sure, it sounds stupid, but you have to admit: your players will be able to remember, pronounce, and even spell all of the important people and places.

I would really like to argue this point, but I can't. It's just outright true.

For fuck's sake people, stop taking the bait.

>>45347588

But not with all the other things I listed to put them in their proper place. Having one of those things doesn't help if the others aren't there.

>>45347611

The fact that CGL can let such incredibly unbalanced rules exist in the first place isn't OK. It sets a precedent. And what if I'm somewhere where I can't refuse a game, like in an event at Gencon? The only solution is to not have the unbalanced units in the first place.

>>45347626
Troll harder.

>>45347733
But we LIKE being angry!

>>45347733

Maybe if CGL released some actual, meaningful product, we'd have something else to do besides entertain ourselves this way while we wait for dinner to cook. And I was done reading Lone Star inside of 6 minutes.

So as it stands, there's just not much to talk about. Except the /btg/TRO. How's that coming along?

>>45310665
No one will argue about factions if we get rid of factions.

Trust me, I'm a CEO who's looking to expand to the mainstream customers. All you nerds are dead to me. I need the money of hipsters and SJWs

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>>45347815
>Except the /btg/TRO. How's that coming along?

>>45347871
Badly, but you're not paying for it, so there's that.

>>45347286

They win those fights by stringing the opposition out and the like, not by zipping around spamming +4 or better TMMs. They also *can* be used that way but the whole reason for their existence wasn't to be direct combat assets but to assream the enemy on the logistical and strategic scale while normal 'Mechs assreamed the enemy at the tactical level.

Other fiction can be explained or dismissed as a product of their time like other things. Phantom 'Mech ability. Elemental BA injuring or killing non-Elementals who tried to use it. BA in general having high physical requirements. The ASF phenotype being good. Most of which appear more in fiction than LAMs at all.

>>45347304

It's their WIGE movement rate. That's where their problems begin and end. Reduce their movement rate and the problems go away. X3 WIGE Cruise and turn modes that don't really apply are the root of the issue. If LAMs don't want to fight, you can't make them. Which is fine in and of itself, it's just that if they do want to fight they can push return fire to-hit mods into the stratosphere between their TMMs and their ability to determine range. NEA will say "just like any other fast jumper" but that isn't true- the slowest canon LAM moves almost twice as far as the best jumper, most move almost three times as far.

If turn modes were mandatory rather than able to be sidestepped with a PSR I could live with X3 movement. Otherwise it's too much.

iJJs are problematic on other fronts because it's literally the first tool min-maxers leapt on everywhere I've seen LAM-building discussed. They provide movement in AM mode equivalent to a heavier normal engine with more JJs, but with more mass for other stuff.

>>45347356

Your calculations are correct for masses, I meant to say that smaller engines and iJJs provided nearly as much tonnage as an XL , and they do.

As for fighting 'Mechs, as I've said that's what they can do as an act of desperation but needn't be what they're meant for.

>>45347882
>Badly, but you're not paying for it
So just like CGL's stuff, then?

>>45347529
Interstellar Operations

>>45347929

OK, it is you. It would have been courteous to respond to >>45346652 so there wasn't threadspace otherwise wasted in the (apparently) pointless attempts to correct your fundamentally broken conclusions.

I shall no longer waste my time. Peace, out.


>>45347956

Ha.