How does melee combat work in a zero-gravity environment?
The swings are slow, but you're slow too, so you'll see it coming and be unable to dodge.
Floaty
>>45103619
>The swings are slow
Why?
>>45103569
It... doesn't?
>>45103569
Like, are we talking about zero-gravity like in space, or in a vacuum with zero-gravity? The combat changes drastically.
Well first of all, you're not capable of moving unless you have something nearby to grab onto, or push yourself off of. So many fine combat maneuvers would be impossible, and stopping a charge after you've started it would be pretty hard too.
On the other hand, grappling would be extremely easy, all you have to do is get ahold of someone, the force required to move them is minimal, and will most likely be provided by your momentum.
Power attacks are impossible, because your body can't generate the appropriate momentum without a solid surface under your feet. The impact of all blows generally would be lessened, so maybe just halve everyone's strength. Bladed and piercing weapons would be more useful there
Because of the inability to generate momentum, dodging would be a lot harder too. So dodge bonuses to AC, and reflex saves, should be drastically reduced or eliminated
A lot of decent melee combat would involve holding onto something, and attacking with your other arm, that would allow generating decent movement and leverage, but twohanded weaponry would be impossible.
Judo and chin'na grappling techniques become paramount. Leverage is the most effective and only predictable weapon you have against another zero-g enemy.
You can still move weapons quickly, and despite not having weight, objects still have mass. Impacts will be far less powerful, but slashing weapons can still inflict significant damage without causing Newton's Third law to come into immediate effect (in fact, katanas, knives and other slicing weaponry work just fine in zero-g as a result). Kinetic weapons work just as well, though the recoil is a potential fuck you factor, but you're just as likely to damage somethign important in your ship as not.
The reason people move slow in zero-g is because moving fast has repercussions - it's not that it's impossible, it's just that you're likely to send yourself flying by accident. Grappling combat is the only effective melee combat in zero-g, and slicing weapons the least likely to fling your opponent away from you.
>>45103569
>strike opponent
>your weapon pushes them away without penetrating
>the force sends you spinning away from each other
It doesn't.
Maybe if you had a lance and some sort of thruster array strapped on it would be possible to pull off some Gundam bullshit, but then you get into the issue of trying to close with a target while obeying orbital mechanics in an environment with literally zero cover available. A military target is presumably going to have some sort of ranged weaponry.
>>45103741
Both.
>>45103647
the laws of motion, instead of all of your force going into the swing half of it goes into swinging you too,
>>45103569
Every direction is "down".
>>45103569
many wrestlings. The latest Neal Stephenson book had a decent segment explaining it.
>>45103816
>Implying the enemy base isn't down
>>45103816
no, the enemy's gate is "down"
>>45103569
grappling mainly, that's the only way to stay within melee range for any length of time.
>>45103647
There is a marital artist saying of power comes from earth. All deals with momentum and the whole 'an object at rest stays at rest'.
Mostly if you're floating in zero G you are are all the leverage you can get no gravity holding you to earth to push off of. When you swing a sword on ground you twist your body and push off it to get the weapon started moving and maintain or build momentim, zero G is just you twisting your own body hoping to start to move a possibly heavy weapon with nothing but your own mass chucking it around, no gravity to be your friend or ground to give you leverage.
>>45103807
In a true vacuum, you're talking about no outside forces and all forces that are done must come from the person(s) in combat with whatever it is fighting, much like >>45103761
expect similar results.
If there's low gravitational forces that similar to just beyond orbit of a planet, movement is more free than the zero-gravity, but not like that of an actual planet.
But the biggest problem with a Vacuum zero-gravity fight is that nothing could exist long enough due to lack of oxygen (however this is more or less the technicality of the word vacuum in the truest sense).
Getting leverage seems like it would be difficult without a wall or corner to back yourself into. A solid swing would end up expending a lot of its energy to push your target (And yourself) around.
I guess you'd need really sharp weapons that negate as much physical resistance as possible by slicing right through it, and even then it would probably be less effective than the same weapon in a gravity-controlled environment.
I'd say the best method of melee attacking in zero g is to grab onto your enemy with one hand, and stick a stiletto in them with the other.
The leverage you gain by holding them will allow you to stab them repeatedly, even if you are a completely isolated system (ie, neither of you is touching anything)
The movement of both of your bodies, and the stabbing weapon, is relative to the system you both form
Think of it this way. If you hold a gun, you can squeeze the trigger.
But if you're not holding the gun, say it's lying on a table. try firing it by pushing your finger against the trigger. You'll just push the gun instead, (unless the gun is very heavy, or the trigger very loose)
but yeah, grab and stab for the win
>>45103569
It doesn't unless we Forever War it
>>45103569
I always figured that Savate would be the natural striking style to draw inspiration from, in zero-g environments. I mean it was developed to be used on the unstable surfaces of sea-going ships, using rigging and such as handholds to gain leverage. I figure the same principle can apply to rails and bulkheads in spaceships, with modification.
>>45103569
The most effective weapon in zero G is a modified Kama. Technique is to push the blade past the opponent's guard, hook his body with the blade and push off of him as hard as possible.
Of course, you need to abort the attack if he's managed to hook you with a blade, so zero-G combat goes right back to the world's most intense hugging contest.
>>45104323
>he world's most intense hugging contest.
So bears would have a natural and terrifying advantage in space?
>>45104408
who do you think the soviets actually sent into space? People? they sent communist bears, that's what happened to the secret apollo 18 crew. The USSR managed to finally make it to the moon and attack the american astronauts.
>>45104408
That distinction goes to Felines actually; The "Rake" action where they grab with the front claws and strike with their back claws would be terrifyingly effective in zero-G.
And that's not even starting on engineering an intelligent cat sentry; You're not dealing with a tiger who only exercises enough to catch the slowest gazelle, Sgt. Pushkins is 900 lbs of muscle. Add 2 pairs of combat spurs to the back of the legs, some soft armor and you aren't even sure you've been boarded until you hear your buddy's hardsuit and torso opened from sternum to pelvis.
>>45103569
Grappling, whips and bouncing of walls to move through the air.
Striking is practically useless as the force relies on the weight of the strike.
>>45104519
Next space setting I run is going to have genetically modified death-cats.
If its a "serious" setting they're going to be giant armored tiger-looking things with the intelligence of a bright toddler and all the maliciousness to go with it.
They think of their missions as "playtime". They like to tear apart all that sleek space suit armor to get at the soft warm guts like a human child would like popping a soap bubble or knocking down a sandcastle.
They're horrifying monsters.
...But if its a "pulp" setting they're going to be catgirls. Catgirls that specialize in subduing prey with submission wrestling moves.
What do you think anons?
>>45104519
The most horrifying enemy my old Shadowrun crew faced was on a space station. They had on patrol a cybertooth tiger with magnetic feet pads, vacuum survival cyberware, and cranial implants to interface with the security system. We never heard it or saw it unless it was a shadow passing over a window, or the faint scrape of metal on the hull, or a furry missile shrieking down on top of us.
>>45105195
Catgirls need no explaination.
But if you go serious, be prepared, because someone is going to shoot one with a LAW, and you're going to have to explain to the party why the 2 ton death cat is yowling for its mother, until it loses enough blood that all it can do is purr in vain to comfort itself as it fades.
>>45103569
I would incorporate a lot of pile-driver style weapons (place them on the other guy's body and let the driving spike do the work, because it's faster than you can hope to be) and possibly magnetic nets for trapping people onto metal surfaces, allowing you to get the piledriver into place.
Another thing that might work are scissor blades, since they trap the opponent between two intersecting motions, thus making it harder to float away.
Battle Angel Alita Last Order has some pretty cool examples of zero g combat as well as post human combat in general
>>45103569
Magnetic grapple boots. You stay anchored to something at all times in order to have something to push off. You watch the ISS astronauts and usually they're hanging onto something.
Melee combat would be a last resort in the world of firearms, just like it is today in military organizations. Usually you shoot an enemy dead or force them to surrender with colossal losses or no hope of winning (wait them out siege-style). Actual melee would probably only occur if neither part were armed with firearms (or space equivalent: lasers, particle beams, etc.)
If melee were to occur, and vacuum assumed:
Using a bolt gun to penetrate someones helmet would be very effective. a bolt gun is a relatively safe weapon to have in a starship as it doesn't fire a projectile.
Melee would center around fucking up the other guys breathing apparatus, either severing his air tubes or kicking his LSU or slashing his suit or smashing his helmet. Of course vacuum isn't a very quick way to die (~20 seconds of consciousness after exposure to vacuum) so you probably want to do a second bolt gun shot in the guys face, or stab him in the eye, or chest etc.
The big difference with zero g combat is you'd just need a constant contact point with the ship you're in, and you'd plan your moves around that, learning to take advantage of grab points to put yourself in a good position to strike.
If two guys are just tumbling in zero-g, miles from any hard surface, then all bets are off. Probably they would end up pushing each other away and flying in different directions, where they either loose contact or use some kind of RCS pack to thrust back into melee. Once you add thrust it become more of a vector combat than anything to do with zero-g.
I cant find my picture of astronauts fighting with knives unfortunately.
>>45105240
>Be prepared
I expect them to tug at the player's heart strings. The death-cats having a degree of "cuteness" and "innocence" makes them all the more deadly. It's going to hit the characters hard when they realize that they're fighting more or less children. The creators of the death-cats might even encourage child-like traits to unnerve enemies.
I'm thinking about making them a pack of three to four cats that communicate over a closed telepathic network.
It's going to unnerve the party when they hack into the communication to hear stuff like "Hey Kiko, I think I saw the hu-mons go down that corridor!" "Slow down! I hate it when you leave me behind on a kill bro!"
...Now that I really think about it, a game where the party PLAYS as the death-cats could be equal parts heart warming and terrifying. You and your pack vs the the bipedal meanies that shoot at you if you don't sneak up on them.
Keep each other safe. Because in your never-ending existence of hunt after hunt after hunt you're all you have.
...I'm actually tempted now to try Death-Cat The Quest. Should I?
>>45105577
lots of the heavier ranged weapons tend to get banned in ship combat due to the risk of penetrating the hull of the ship, so I can see melee making a comeback then when you combine that fact with tight spaces one naturally finds on spacecraft.
>>45104313
And then parkour, the martial art of running away, would surely help getting around in a zero/micro gravity environment.
>mfw French martial arts save the day.
>>45105986
Parkour is mostly about momentum and having a discerning eye for the best places to put that momentum into enough leverage to progress past obstacles.
So nah.
>>45103569
I always liked the occasional fight scene in Planetes. Most of it was utilizing whatever you had, be it a wall to propel off of, or a suit's thrusters, to knock your enemy either into something else or off into the void.
It would really depend on your equipment, having thrusters of any sort or magnetic boots would make for a very different fight than without them. As well cutting weapons lose effectiveness, as do blunt weapons, as even with a good base or thrusters to get a swing going when you contact anything even with an edge that thing has no forces holding it in place. So you knock your target back more than you damage them, particularly if they are wearing something to protect them in space. If you have no way of holding your target or forcing them towards your blows your ability to damage them is greatly reduced. Thus without more exotic weaponry such as plasma torches, electrical weapons or such your best bet is actually either something that aids in your ability to grab your opponent, or just your own hands.
After reading some of the comments in this thread, I've got an idea.
Standard issue in the gloves/other surfaces of all combat ready space/vac suits are detachable (and sticky?) heating elements which can reach temperatures high enough to at least burn holes in suits. Hell, anything that you can manage to attach to them, even at a low speed/velocity/whatever, which can then do something to them without you needing to stay attached.
Some ideas would be:
>Sticky heat patch/plasma charge, reaction reaches however many thousand degrees required to get through their suit
>Small pneumatic spike thingy, once attached it starts stabbing its spikes in/out far faster than a human ever could
>Sticky explosives of course, though I am unsure of how explosives work in vacuum/space
Fuck man, you could even go with stuff that doesn't SEEM like it'd be deadly.
>Thrusters with adhesive patches, once attached they jet the unlucky SOB off to who knows where
>High powered electromagnets, after you attach it/clear them, it activates. This attaches it to whatever magnetic surface is around (hopefully not you) and wrecks whatever havoc it can through the suit's shielding.
This brings to mind a setting where everyone's terrified to touch anyone else because anything could stick to you and doom you. You could even have patches all over your suit which attach to other people when you touch them with whatever part of your suit, and depending on the patch, this would have the advantage of being able to be used in boarding operations (need to open a door? use the plasma patch!)
Alternatively, you could also have gloves/gauntlets with heating or cutting elements in them so that any grapple is deadly (or at least dangerous) when you're involved, but I personally like the idea of the detachable/disposable weaponry route. Of course, a remote detonation/control system would be essential.
>>45106415
Going with this idea, you could even have specially designed knives which, rather than a standard handle, have a handle loaded with whatever payload you'd need. I imagine these knives would probably be more like spikes or hook/bill knives than a plain stabby/cutty one, allowing it to more easily be stuck in the suit/person, ensuring the payload is delivered. With the penetration this brings, you could have the payload be any variety of things...
Poison gas, freezing stuff (liquid nitrogen?), explosives INSIDE THE SUIT, flammable stuff and an ignition source, some kind of propellant which drives the knife or spike further into them... The possibilities are honestly endless.
>>45103569
In zero g, the man with a bow is god.
>>45106452
What about the man with a footbow?
>>45106603
>>45106452
I don't think a bow would be as good in zero-G as you seem to.
Anything that uses a slight amount of pressurized gas to release a projectile with its own propellant should work, though. Regardless, this is about melee, not ranged. Of course ranged weapons are generally more effective in space, assuming the recoil/force can be compensated for.
>>45103814
This, although it should be noted, that there's also an extra penalty for the fact that you (probably) can't use your footing to counter-balance your swing.
On the ground, you can even use a portion of the mass of the planet, by putting the weight of your swing onto your foot.
I'd say rules should include a penalty to hit/damage, based on the weight of your weapon (the heavier it is, the larger portion of the force goes to your movement, instead of the sword movement) and some more, based on whether or not, the character is adjacent to a wall or something else, that they can use to counterbalance themselves.
I thought The Integral Trees was a pretty cool book. It had tribal societies in zero g and didn't afraid of anything.
>>45103569
This doesn't focus too much on the actual zero-G combat, which is covered in Martial Arts and the core books, but it's an interesting look at a possible future for martial arts and how they will adapt to technology and improved simulation.
>>45103569
> hold sword above your head
> swing both legs forward with full force
> sword and upper body is moved
> let go off sword
> swing legs back again
> body stops, sword still moving towards enemy
>>45103675
WWIII scenario with Russia and Europe as main actors, a single European astronaut is on the ISS with three Russian cosmonauts, and one neutral American and Japanese faggot.
The Russians decide to tie up the European while he is asleep, because they overheard him receiving orders to abandon the station alone with one of the Russian Soyuz vessels.
The European has a rough awakening and has to fight his way to the escape vessels.
There, now you have a scenario where melee fights in 0G matter. And don't dare to mention the space gun the Russians keep in their Soyuz vessels. Shooting that thing inside the ISS would be too much of a risk.
>>45103794
>not using kinetic weapons for part of your movement based fighting styles
>harpoon guns with maximized kickback and a steel line on a wheel for mid air controlled combat
Harpoon guns plz
>>45111416
Make it better, harpoon guns with high powered heating elements to also cook a nigger while you reel yourself in to them.
>>45112209
Simpler is better. Harpoon guns can be improvised
>>45111086
> "I'll throw my sword at him! He'll never see it coming."
With grappling and knives, I'd imagine.
Leverage weapons won't do much good, anything with a long shaft or a lot of mass will cause you problems.
Weirdly, lightsabers would work really well, as the blade has next to no mass to act against yourself.
Short of that, probably plasma cutters and stuff.
>>45106195
Adapting Parkour for zero-G would be essential for rapid mobility in a habitat.
You can't go nearly as fast carrying enough propellent to chase/run compared to a gook knowledge of push off/landing techniques.
>>45103569
Cut the suit and you're dead.
Epic Highlander duels on the moon.
You want to focus on grapples, holds, and bone-breaking. Punching and kicking are kind of dumb in zero G.
>>45112564
It wouldn't resemble parkour in the least. Calling it that is an extreme misnomer. It might be based on the core concepts of parkour, but it would be a very different sport in execution. In fact, if you were to put a parkour expert in 0G and tell him to git gud, he probably would never feel comfortable with it because parkour is so reliant on the fact that gravity exists.
>>45112625
No more dumb than implying they're useless as you are trying to do. Strikes will always be important in unarmed combat because of what they accomplish, which is dazing, distracting, and applying hurt to the opponent. Trying to find the right leverage to break someone's arm or leg or whatever would be incredibly difficult in a 0G environment, especially if they're lashing out at you while you're trying to get the right hold on them.
>>45112636
It will be a very rare thing that a habitation area will be truly zero G. Micro gravity will be more likely.
Also, having the fundamentals of the kinetics of the human body lets you skip most of the effort in learning zero G; You already know how to get the force you want, so now you just need to be more precise on the center of mass and understand you'll "Never Land" in a zero G environ.
Gymnasts would do better, but I'm not going to discount a free runner.
>>45103569
Poorly, just use a blaster like everyone else op.
>>45106415
A self-locking pincer, perhaps similar to the hinge action of handcuffs. Push it onto a limb and it automatically snaps on, then a battery in the handle with a small electric motor takes advantage of the leverage of a screw to close the pincer in a second or two to amputate the limb.
>>45106195
>obstacles
like the people you're running away from
I'm so disappointed guys...
JETPACKS!!!!
>>45113075
we're mentioned thrusters since like, the first post.
like, omg, like.
>>45112332
>"I will throw my sword at him, he can't dodge because he can't reach the next hand hold before it hits him!"
>>45105551
Just read that entire manga and fucking loved it.
Please post more astronauts with swords.
Jetpack driven rocket lances.
>>45114828
I forgot how rad Battle Angel Alita is.
>>45105586
>Quest
No
But a game sounds fun
>>45103569
real world:
melee wouldn't work, bullets work fine in space (they do not need any oxygen from the air at all), the only downside is that they don't cool down in a vacuum so you'd want either 50x disposable derringers or a larger gun with a vest full of quick-change barrels (like modern LMGs use)
fantasy where rockets capable of space exist but gunpowder doesn't:
1. if piercing the suit so they suffocate is all that matters, very long, very very thin and sharp rapiers / rapier-spears / rapier-lances. Potentially in trident shape (several points so if they try to deflect one, another tip pierces their suit)
2. If complete destruction is important (such as self-sealing suits that have beads that when punctured leak and seal the holes) then combat whips, long scythes, hooks, etc. become the deal, along with sword-catchers (pic related) so that you have a method of both protecting yourself and pulling an enemy towards you instead of flying away from each other during a confrontation.
Also, bladed combat boots / kneepads / elbowpads would be used to inflict damage when enemy is pulled close.
>>45103569
Think hockey fights. Neither combatant can use his feet to properly impart force into a blow, so it's necessary to maintain a grapple while striking with the other hand.
>>45103569
I would imagine it has a lot of stabbing involved.
>>45111268
Thank you for bringing the TP-82 to my attention
>>45112209
> harpoon sticks in target
> melts flesh off enemy
> harpoon is loose
Your logic is flawed
>>45103569
What a lot of people are forgetting about this whole swinging problem in space is that a futuristic EVA suit or mech in the future would have pretty advanced RCS nozzle arrays and such. If your suit is smart enough, when you swing a greatsword in space, it's going to provide enough counterforce to keep you in place and therefore prevent this from being an issue.
This also opens up the possibility to take this in the complete oposite direction- using recoil control and stabilization nozzles to add MORE force to swings and movements. It would be dangerous, but it would be a literal rocket punch.
