Does anyone know if there's a splatbook with stats for the Lady of Pain? I'm about to run a campaign where the players defeat her and become the new kings of Sigil. It'd be nice to not have to make up stats on my own!
>>44908618
Yes.
>>44908618
>>44908706
Yeah at least one exists.
>>44908618
That's stupid.
You're stupid.
>>44908618
I have one, but my eyes bleed whenever I try to read it.
Which sucks, because it's all I have to read down here in this maze.
>>44908618
The entire point of the Lady of Pain is that there are not nor can there be stats for her. She is not an NPC, she is a force of the multiverse.
Allowing your players to engage, let alone defeat her is like allowing them to defeat entropy. It's not possible, because there's no meaningful way for a mortal to interact with such things.
>>44908618
>>44908803
>She is not an NPC, she is a mary sue of the multiverse.
FTFY senpai
>>44908618
Sigil is boring enough to play in, it would be an even more boring place to rule
>>44908618
Mazes 1d6 adventurers per round.
>>44908803
what if they ascend to godhood in the course of their quest, and not so much defeat her as attempt for forcibly merge themselves into the universe's expression of entropy (the lady of pain) and hope that one of their personalities comes out on top?
>>44908873
>UNHHHH WAAAAAH My omnipotent force of the universe has a personification MARY SOOOOOOOOOOOO
Fuck right off. You wouldn't be saying anything of the sort if was the Duke of Pain or some other bullshit.
How would the LoP handle this guy?
>>44909007
I don't know who that is but it doesn't matter if he's in sigil a mazing or a flaying
>>44908873
>Not knowing what mary sue is.
>>44908985
>You wouldn't be saying anything of the sort if was the Duke of Pain or some other bullshit.
Oh, I totally would. Walking, omnipotent, plot devices are never good.
>>44909367
>more powerful than the gods
>so mysterious that even the gods don't what she is
>mazing/flaying people because muh city
>so powerful that she could conquer the planes but she doesn't
Sounds pretty mary sue to me familia.
>>44909266
That's Killy, an android who's been walking around an unmapped giant maze for at least several thousands of years, and who can regenerate from far worse than a flaying. He's from a manga called Blame!. I recommend it.
>>44909419
That's not what a Mary Sue is.
>>44908618
Thats like asking if there is a splatbook with stats for god.
She's supposed to be mysterious, malign, incalculable.
The entire point is you're not supposed to know how powerful she is, and just assume she is ALL powerful. The party should never deal with her directly. If the party is dealing directly with the lady of pain, you're DMing wrong.
The party deals with the city, and mazes, and the cretin that fill sigil. That alone is enough for an entire campaign. Having the Lady as an actual character in a campaign doesn't really suit her. She's more of a *show up at the high point of the campaign, but not because it has anything to do with the PCs, she just happened to be flaying an entire section of the city and the PCs witnessed it* - type malign omnipotent being.
She's like Q that never ever talks or visits the PCs, and doesn't even acknowledge their existence.
>>44909576
>Thats like asking if there is a splatbook with stats for god.
Uh. This is D&D. You DO know that those have existed throughout D&D, right? There's a fuckton of those.
>>44908618
Even mentioning her name is sacrilege in sigil. If the party so much as speaks her name, very bad things should happen, and everyone around them will shun them or run off.
>>44908618
Here you go
>>44909628
THE god though?
not random "gods" but THE controlling entity of the entire universe.
They're things that should never be statted out. I know D&D likes to stat out everything, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a stat block for "GOD", but its a bit silly. probably can unlimited wish constantly and has 999 of all stats, and infinite AC and HP.
>>44909666
This.
I don't understand why lop is such a trigger.
I've played in a game whose whole idea was that the Lady of Pain was dead (provably, completely), and what happens when that happens. Since none of us were very fond of Sigil as is (yeah, yeah, it's a cool thing and all, but no), and the implications seemed pretty damn intresting.
Nobody had a lot of fun in that campaign. Character-wise, I mean.
>>44909419
She can't conquer the plains though she is stuck in sigil
>>44909476
Well I guess he will just keep getting eternily flayed
It's always good to see some old school bait rolled out.
>>44909419
She has exactly zero power outside of her domain.
She doesn't even bother to fucking interact with anyone, unless they attempt to draw her ire.
>wow, look its a pit bull with rabies and aids!
>wow! Let's go fuck with it
>PC logic
>>44908618
WOW. Fucking blatant troll.
However!
Lady of Pain is heavy rumored to be an type of being known as the Ancient Brethren.
It is also heavily implied that Ao is part of this group of beings.
If you are looking for comparable stats you can simply snag Ao's stats from any Gods-&-More-Gods dnd books, and just swap in and out the powers that make sense.
>>44909706
Because D&D is a game where traditionally everything is statted out, and the mindset is that if it's there, you can kill it if you pump enough iron.
This might not be a great mindset, but it's the mindset created over four decades by a game whose conventions tend to revolve around how much shit you have killed, and how much shit you can kill.
If it can be interacted with, we can kill it. And often will. This is the mindset D&D tends to create pretty easily.
>>44909419
> so powerful that she could conquer the planes but she doesn't
She doesn't because she can't. Her powers are limited to Sigil.
>>44908618
This only works if their entire quest is devoted to taking her down. Then you keep playing.
Stat her yourself
>>44909779
I don't think AO has stats in any godbooks. He's (It's?) just about the one thing, other than LoP, who's not killable and lootable in D&D.
>>44909822
Oh ya?
My wiz/barb/psion/cleric is level 64!!
I can solo him.
>>44908803
>>44909419
>Sounds pretty mary sue to me familia.
This is bait, literally everything you've said was wrong.
>>44909888
Most of the gods in 3.5 were something like level 40 thing/thing/thing. None of them could say anything when Ao told them to fuck off and find his stupid rocks. Together, they had absolutely no way to oppose Ao, because Ao supposedly operates on a level (pun might be intended, but might not be) that cannot even be comprehended by even the gods.
Or something like that. I guess Ao is mostly there because lol Christianity and/or something that can tell the players to knock it off when they're killing gods.
I have no idea why anyone would want to play a campaign that is so fucked, but hey.
>>44909971
And Ao, had a boss.
>>44909995
Heavily implied to be the actual God. As in, literal, Christian God.
Or the DM. Fuck if I know about D&D's fucked up cosmology.
>>44909820
And if anything at all, you'd use the Immortals handbook line. Wouldn't she be a sidereal or elder one tier?
>>44909822
Difrence being the lady is a good part of her setting while ao is shit
>gods with a divine rank above 20
NOT EVEN ONCE
>>44908618
Killing the Lady of Pain is like killing the Strong Nuclear Force.
>>44910031
I can totally see that, though. Gary's having an argument with a player who's insisting that his character is allowed to do something since the rules say so. And then Gygax gets pissed and shouts "Yeah well screw you, I am now the literal god of god of gods and your character will die if he doesn't obey my will!"
>>44910076
But the forgotten realms isent Gary's setting he made best setting greyhawk
>>44910031
I read that as Ao's boss, had a boss, who has a boss...and on and on.
>>44910049
Yeah, Lady of Pain at least has a reason to be there. Sigil's right in the middle, literally and figuratively, of the fuck cluster that is D&D's cosmology. There has to be a really goddamn definite answer as to why X doesn't occur, where X is any number of countless planar interactions, warring multiversal factions or shit like that. You need some omnipotent, clearly labeled force that slaps anyone, including the players, who try to rock the boat. Because if you rock this boat, it will explode and turn into a chaos vortex.
If Lady of Pain doesn't exist, Sigil can't exist as the adventure hub in harmless status quo that it is. It gets fucked instantly and then there's no Sigil.
>>44909822
What about Pun-Pun?
>>44910076
>>44908803
>Allowing your players to engage, let alone defeat her is like allowing them to defeat entropy. It's not possible, because there's no meaningful way for a mortal to interact with such things.
That sounds like quitter talk to me, son!
>>44908618
It's bait, but I think I can get it off the hook. The answer is simple, following two rules: only 20s and max damage.
The 20s rule has two parts:
1) No d20 roll that can't critically succeed can affect the LoP, regardless of the numerical bonus. Normally, this means skill checks, and the reason should be obvious.
2) Any d20 roll that -can- critically succeed against the LoP can only do so on a 20, regardless of the numerical bonus. This covers all attack rolls and the like. Before you ask, NO: you can't trip 20s and lop off LoP's head. That house rule has no purpose here, as a deity is immune to instant death.
The max damage rule means that any and all attack dice rolled must roll their maximum values, and that means ALL of the dice damn it. Rolling a 20d6 fireball? Better Maximize it or it won't mean for shit. Got 4d10+2d8+2d6+40? Pray to the God of Luck or have a class feature to max weapon dice damage, or prepare to be disappointed.
Both rules are meant to make the LoP what she is (and has been described by many Anons so far): an untouchable, unassailable force of the universe; indeed, the LoP is the personification of Sigil. Now...add on resist all/50+ and DR 50/- and presto! She's perfect.
Lady of pain is a retarded mary sue plot device and only faggots like her. Source: this thread.
I wish your players the best of luck.
>>44908618
>>USER WAS MAZED FOR THIS POST
>>44910216
Pun-pun has infinite stats, you literally can't write them down because as soon as you do you've only made a lesser version of the Kobold god.
Next troll should probably try posting about how his party is going to take on pun-pun.
>>44910388
Please, Pun-Pun may be infinite, but he is the least form of infinite. His stats are mapped to whole numbers, and I'm sure that some enterprising min maxer could find a way to create an infinitely powerful god whose stats grow faster than pun-pun's, possibly being mapped to the real numbers.
Pun-pun is Aleph-not tier, and there are many, many more infinities.
>When retards read a DnD book.
>>44908873
>>44909419
She's not a Mary Sue because that would imply she is a character, and absolutely everything about her speaks more to how she is not a character.
>>44910507
>and I'm sure that some enterprising min maxer could find a way to create an infinitely powerful god whose stats grow faster than pun-pun's
Hmn, no. There was an attempt called the Omniificer and it failed because they discovered a faster-better pun-pun in the attempt.
Secondly the numbers in the D&D book are either whole number (1,2,3,4) or sometimes double decimal (1.25, 1.50, 1.75). And that's it. RAW in the first 20 pages of every D&D book it explains how the numbers work. No higher math than grade 2 allowed.
>>44910507
Pun-pun can also have any ability he conceives of.
I'm sure he can conceive of the ability to have your infinity +1
>>44911020
>No higher math than grade 2 allowed
Rip.
>>44908984
The Lady kills gods with a mere thought. Just look what happened to Aoskar when he tried to muscle in on Sigil.
>>44911041
>infinity+1
I'm talking about infinity^2
infinity^infinity
infinity^(infinity^(infinity^(...
>>44911108
>The lady of pain is a stupid cunt and next time I'm going to rape her.
>t. Vecna
>>44909476
>>44909007
>>44909765
>That's Killy, an android who's been walking around an unmapped giant maze
Sounds like he already bugged the lady and lost then.
>>44911124
>That +1
>>44911174
>that to infinity
>>44908984
Look at it this way
If she's a god she has around 40-50 divinity
>>44909779
>Lady of Pain is heavy rumored
Oy cutter, to shed the dark of it, the Lady is really7 squirrels in a robe, with a ring of Levitation
>>44911174
G(G(G(G(G...
(tending towards infinity)
>>44908618
>Becoming kings of Sigil
>Not obliterating it and laughing as the planar nexus bursts
Weak
>>44911191
>stronger than you +1we should stop shitting up the thread senpai
>>44909971
Played a God-killing campaign once. The reason you play it is simply because you can - the rules are there, they barely function but they're there, and when it's over you can talk about how people stopped dying because you killed the god of death.
We didn't really deal with the consequences of that one.
>>44911150
Vecna is a cheater and he's the one in setting to blame for 3.0 being such a poorly thought out clusterfuck.
Fuck you Vecna. I'm glad your plan failed.
>>44911329
Vecna is That Guy that we all should blame
>>44911292
OP here
>implying this wasn't a bait thread from the beginning
>>44911329
>>44911357
Kyuss was here, Vecna licks goats.
Where my worm bros at?
>>44911211
>>44910388
Nut-pun. Yeah.
>>44911329
>>44911357
Fuck off Kas, Vecna is bro tier.
>>44908618
Here you go, full stats for the lady of pain
>>44908618
Didn't we have this thread four to six days ago?
>>44911447
Kyuss is at least cool. The writers have such a boner for Vecna that he always wins, even if he loses. It's annoying.
I prefer Orcus to Vecna. He wins too, but at least gets fucked up for it. And he doesn't have the same annoying problem that Vecna and Lolth have were their divine rank keeps going up ever edition, making them less and less relevant.
>>44911470
Yes and it baited just as many.
>>44908873
>>44909710
Why don't you like Sigil?
>>44911470
>Trolls think they're baiting. Planescape fans get a reason to start going off about the best setting under the thin veil of falling for the trolled.
>>44911357
Vecna is the god the D&D universe needs. 10/10, would pray to 'erryday.
>>44911541
>best setting
>Ravenloft can't hear you over the sound of being the best setting
>>44911288
>Become kings of Sigil
>2 milliseconds later, every major power from every universe in existence invades Sigil to claim it
>4 milliseconds later, there is no Sigil
>>44911583
2E had the best settings.
>>44910507
Georg is not amused.
>>44911487
>Orcus
>not the god of Orcs
Why is this allowed?
If you locked all the undead D&D divinities into a battleplane until one emerged, who would it be?
My vote is Atropus.
>>44911609
Best edition period.
>>44911583
That's not how you spell Darksun.
>>44911447
>undead
>worms still living
Shit god 2/10 would not sacrifice to
>>44911602
People grossly overestimate the real estate value of Sigil. Fiends might consider such a dangerous place worth fighting over, and some have so little self preservation to not care, but there are honestly not many factions who would even think they have the power to take wizard-and-greater-outsider-central over, and who lack the power to create their own portals.
>>44911535
It largely smacks of NOT YOUR DADDY'S D&D syndrome
>you thought fiends were pure evil? WRONG
>you thought celestials bond over the common cause of goodness? WRONG
>you thought you knew the planes? DEAD WRONG BERK
It's dripping with gimmicky anti-status quo attitude that conceals a dull setting.
>>44911609
>2E had the best settings.
This is probably true.
>>44911628
>Tritons (race) don't worship Triton (god)
Why is that allowed?
>>44911487
>Lolth
Hey random thought
Iggwilv + Graz'zt = Iuz that is to say: Powerful Mortal + Abyssal Lord = Demigod
So.
Powerful Elf + Abyssal Lord = Lolth?
Would explain why she keeps calling the abyss her crib even though she's got more than enough power to setup shop anywhere without warring neighbors.
>Miska as her daddy?
>>44911487
Like him, or hate him, at least Vecna put the special snowflake Dark Powers and Lady of Pain in their place and showed they aren't infallible.
>>44911602
>4 milliseconds later, there is no Sigil
Keikakudori, Sigil gets popped, knocking out the planar hub strands the planes and decimates planar travel. All dimensions are locked down and all creatures, divine or not are stranded in whatever plane they were left in to fend for themselves or parish.
Seems like an interesting setting with potential for amusing allies.
>>44911663
We never played darksun setting.
I really haven't lived.
>>44911678
Did you miss the part where that's the whole point of mummies.
>>44911535
Its got too great an emphasis on metaplot and on the PCs being along for the ride instead of the primary determining factor of the story, too impersonal, and too immobile other than through metaplot stuff. Its so immobile that it needs, for whatever contrived reason, an invincible floating town guard to make sure things remain immobile.
>talos
>aspect of gruumsh
>>44911729
>Lady of Pain in their place and showed they aren't infallible.
Planescape literally does this to itself every 3rd or 4th it published. The fans just prefer to ignore that.
>>44911663
That's not how you spell Spelljammer
Why do you bastards have to try and kill everything?
Why can't you just accept that no means fucking no, dammit, and no amount of magical fuckery or +X adamantium greatsword is going to kill some things?
>>44911722
I thought Planescape felt that Fiends were Evil, although the only pure evil ones are the sociopathic scheming Yugoloths. The Baatezu and Tanarri are equal parts Evil and Law/Chaos respectively.
I think Planescape even has a little adventure where a Tanarri ends up infected by a Planatear's Divine Goodness, messing it up metaphysically as it starts to become something else.
>>44911834
The curse of being a benchmark is that every writer that gets hired wants to fuck with you.
>>44911834
Its a reminder they can't forget and that annoys them, at any rate.
>>44911602
>>44911773
Sounds like the start of an amber game honestly.
>>44911817
And honestly, all the alternative suggestions for how SIgil isn't constantly getting buttfucked by the major forces of good and evil constantly tend to be even more dumb and contrived than the Lady of Pain.
I remember one idea I saw being that people just don't fight in Sigil because they just don't.
>>44911848
>m-muh waifu is s-so strong baka!
>no means fucking no
>>>/t/umblr
>>44911848
>Why do you bastards have to try and kill everything?
Because that's quitter talk you fucking pussy.
Accepting that something is stronger than you, and that you will never beat it, is forfeiting your self-determination.
If there is a will, there's a way, and I will that the multiverse run octarine with the blood of every entity.
>>44911729
Gods of Lankhmar giggled at that.
>>44911817
Ah. I never gave a shit about Planescape and Sigil's Metaplot. I just thought the setting and faction and flavor was cool as shit. And talking the Cant is so stupidly fun I really can't get enough of it.
Representing your faction, debating the philosphy your character doesn't really care about other than street cred with your party members, exploring the city and the planes, calling people cutter and berk, getting into arguments about how Sigil is pronounced. Shit is just fun as fuck for me.
>>44911848
Something about being a special snowflake in a room of special snowflakes.
>>44911890
My nigga.
Nostalgia. Jpg
>>44908618
>Does anyone know if there's a splatbook with stats for the Lady of Pain?
>stats for the Lady of Pain?
heh, heh, he, heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ha!
oh, that is hilarious.
look I'm going to say what has probably already been said a dozen times or more, but it bears saying again:
the LoP has no stats because the developers purposely chose not to ever stat her because she is "you lose forever" there is no beating her. there is no resisting her, if she wants you dead, you die, and it doesn't matter if you are lvl1, or lvl20, you piss her off, you die, and if you REALLY piss her off, she might maze you.
>>44911913
This blood's nabbed it.
Hey cutter, you can roll the dice with me any day.
>>44911877
You don't need a reason, contrived or not, for why Sigil isn't "buttfucked by the forces of good or evil" constantly. There are enough fiends and other such beings with teleport without error and summoning and such to shit up nearly any corner of any setting beyond repair in anywhere from a minute or so (if someone casts Gate and then they teleport there) to chain summoning.
I forget, the metaplot says that yugoloths are the sole source of fiends who can teleport. So just say "lol yugoloths did it."
>>44911890
When heroes were heroes. Not unisex weeboo little faggots.
>>44911995
If you had bothered to read the thread before you spewed your concentrated retardation into that post, you would know how wrong you are.faggot
>>44912066
Can you maze a yugoloth?
>>44912089
You can't.
Lop can.
>>44911995
>the developers purposely chose not to ever stat her because their setting concept was poorly developed and would fall apart if you looked at it so they needed an omnipotent plot device to maintain the status quo
FTFY
>>44912083
>Grey Mouser
>Not a unisex weeb faggot
>>44912089
Yugoloths are far too true evil, cunning and clever to get themselves mazed, berk, doncha know.
I wonder if it ever covered whether you could just stab yourself in the head to be reborn in your home plane, resurrected, respawn as a phylactery, or whatever; presumably you cannot perform actions enough to kill yourself.
>>44912156
Motherfucker..not even.
>>44911848
Do you really need to ask why people shit on Spelljammer's retarded younger cousin?
>>44912112
Yeah but what happens to them. When they 'port out is it straight into another maze which continuously happens ad infintum or do they just go on their merry way as if they escaped the maze in a traditional sense?
>>44912211
No.
Just no.
>>44912066
Sure but with sigil you can March an army at a moments notice to fucking anywhere
Chronomancer was here, my dad can beat up your dad after level 18
>>44912228
Can't port out.
They're stuck like chuck.
>>44912247
Could you march an army straight into the lop destroying her instantaneously?
>>44912174
Bitch wants to subclass into ninja so hard he can taste it, you know it's true.
>>44912247
Great logistics if you control it.
>>44912281
No way.
Maybe some wizard envy going on..but he'd fuck a ninja up.
>>44912156
WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?!?!?!
>>44912156
>rogue done right.
>>44910145
Not just Sigil. The whole setting gets fucking ruined.
>>44912247
One must first take a roster of all the factions that are not comprised of races of Greater Teleporters (ie fiends and such are automatically off the list), and then a roster of all the factions that stand a decent chance of holding their own in a dysfunctional planar metropolis filled with extremely powerful supernaturals.
Basically, the only people that'd be likely to care are Primes whose pissant armies would be able to make zero progress anyway and who probably couldn't find a way to get in.
>>44912148
>>44912292
Generally speaking there are already a dozen or so almost-planar-hubs that connect to several different planes, all to useful destinations already. Why don't occupying forces just take those?
Yggdrasil, Mt Olympus, Oerth by itself, The mazes of mechanus, fuck Graz'zt even has a known map of huge portions of the infinite staircase, City of Brass, City of Glass, Oceanus. The real question should have been a long long time ago:
>Why bother with sigil? There are hundreds of other just as useful places with controllable portals.
>>44912462
They don't all have permanent gates to everywhere. Sig does.
>>44908934
Players. She mazes 1d6 players per round. Get it right, faggot.
>>44912509
That explains where my roommate went, at least.
>>44912462
Sigil is basically instantaneous. The problem with walking the planes is you actually need to physically walk it. Not to mention those places have the same problem Sigil does to a lesser extent, that they are already inhabited by being that don't really want you walking through their shit.
And of course, Sigil is basically all of those things put together. You wouldn't just want it for yourself, you would also want to deny your enemies access to it.
>>44912498
>Sig does.
Sigil's very description clearly stats how all it's portals are in flux. It may take an hour or a decade by all of it's portal rotate in and out. Granted sigil will always possess a portal to anywhere, but it's means of entry and key will be different.
That by itself makes it useless to any would-be invader.
>>44912526
Nah he's balls deep in that whore you call a mother while your cuck dad's in the corner beating it with tears for lube.
>>44912572
True.
But...
There are items that locate the doors.
And whoever controls it, can control the doors as well.
( if I'm not mistaken).
>>44910145
This is a summary of the sort of attitude as to why people start to hate Planescape. Sigil is neither unique nor important enough to think that its presence or absence would "disrupt the multiverse."
The factions that could A) stand to significantly benefit from holding Sigil (the baatezu being able to ferry pissant dretches around, for example, does not count) and B) have a vague chance of starting to think that they might have the powers and numbers to do so are:
1. The SJ Beholders (but they get around just fine in their ships anyway, especially when they are mainly content to fite each other)
2. The Slaadi (who, of course, have no organization or coherent plans and are proud of it)
3. POSSIBLY manner of uber necromancer army of doom from Ravenloft, were they able to escape Ravenloft
4. POSSIBLY the Sorcerer Kings and their minions, were they able to escape Athas
That's about it. Almost everyone else is either too weak, too few in number, too local or don't stand to benefit at all (ie. they already have racial Teleport Without Error, etc).
>>44912601
What got up your ass?
Were you just waiting for an excuse to use that or something?
>>44908618
I know this is a bait thread, but...
Why would anyone WANT to rule Sigil? It's a fucking dump.
>>44912793
Because it has gates to anywhere.
Gate to krynn, grab a kender, dump it in ravenloft.
Grab a Greek hero, drop him in to fight dritzz.
Or...move an undead army of zombie gnolls from gnollrealm, to invade greyhawk.
Handy.
>>44912737
>What got up your ass?
Your dad.
>Were you just waiting for an excuse to use that or something?
You left yourself open to a burn baby, just take it and move on, like your mom and dad.
>>44912890
I'd be fairly curious if you can actually enter Ravenloft from Planescape, though then again entering Ravenloft is trivial, its escaping it that's a problem.
>>44912921
Gotta be 18 to post here lad.
>>44912921
>Your dad.
...Are you insulting yourself?
>You left yourself open to a burn baby, just take it and move on, like your mom and dad.
>>44912931
I never saw it covered directly.
I'd have to say yes tho.
Finding the portal out..could be a bitch.
>>44912419
Teleport without Error/Greater Teleport don't work that way. They only allow you to teleport anywhere on a particular layer of a plane.
PLANESHIFT is the ability you're thinking of, and even that isn't foolproof: it only puts you on the first layer of any given plane (so, no, you can't Planeshift into Graz'zt's realm and then kill him, you have to Planeshift to the Abyss, then find a portal or other path through the intervening layers).
The main reason to hold Sigil is that it's the City of Doors. Portals lead everywhere, and if you know which ones and what their keys are, you have a backdoor into everyone's house.
>>44913229
>PLANESHIFT is the ability you're thinking of
No, I'm thinking of Teleport w/o error. While the mental imagery of great armies marching across the planes is a great visual, its more like specks blinking across the planes.
You'll notice I also mentioned that it takes about a week, or however long, for demons to utterly trash anywhere in the universe with chain summoning, the complete math is discussed in Reverse Dungeon. Demons avoid doing this in general for mere social reasons, and for the same reason they'd be just as likely or unlikely to try to take Sigil as Greyhawk or wherever else.
Of course, demons (oh sorry, tanar'ri) will fight anyone anywhere at any time for any reason, so yeah, there'd presumably be sporadic fighting in Sigil, but it is not a particularly good deal to take Sigil, not to mention it would be the most unsecure base of operations in the multiverse.
As mentioned, it'd be a good way to ferry armies of pissant dretches and lemures and such, which are already A) unable to hit anything, B) unable to damage anything, C) totally ignored in 99% of planar fights since the enemy can simply fly above them.
>Portals lead everywhere, and if you know which ones and what their keys are, you have a backdoor into everyone's house.
Fiend fortresses are already described as typically having few pathways from room to room, so you'd have to find a separate portal for each room. Even then, they could just leave with a moment's thought, and then an arbitrary number of fiends could show up to reinforce their position and re invade through whatever portal you used -- there's not much point.
>>44908618
Could Goku beat the Lady of Pain? Whattabout WANPANMAN???
>>44913229
Teleport Without Error actually did let you move between planes before 3rd edition, I believe.
>>44913744
Er...
>>44912281
Someone punch this guy in the dick.
>>44913744
Good catch.
>>44909765
You can't get eternally flayed, though. Nothing and no-one comes back from being flayed. She rips up your body, your soul, your very existence. Being flayed is like the dm asking for your character sheet and running it through the shredder.
It's one of the only ways for the Nameless One to die and not come back, in PS:T.
>>44911686
Nope, they're not overestimating at all. Sigil has doors that can open anywhere in existence. Whoever can seize Sigil can manipulate and use those doors to drop forces anywhere at all. Why wage a war across the lower planes when you can just drop your elite soldiers right into the enemy leader's bedroom while he's occupied with some depravity?
There's no defense against the faction that can control Sigil, they can hit you anywhere at any time. Sigil is practically the "Win!" button for any planar power.
Fortunately, only the Lady has power over the doors, and she is not enough of a person to actually want to use them for anything.
Sage for blatant troll thread.
>A battle with The Lady of Pain
>Roll initiative
>Roll new characters
I have had the thought that being mazed could be an interesting thing for a campaign, but fighting Her Eminence, much less beating her? Fucking kek
In AD&D 2e, pre-Squaring-the-Circle, Sigil, the River Styx, the Infinite Staircase, the Great Road, and other planar pathways are very important even to those with Teleport without Error due to the mechanics of those spells:
http://www.seads.org/TSR/phbbk.htm
>Teleport Without Error
>This spell is similar to the teleport spell. The caster is able to transport himself, along with the material weight noted for a teleport spell, to any known location in his home plane with no chance for error. The spell also enables the caster to travel to other planes of existence, but any such plane is, at best, "studied carefully." This assumes that the caster has, in fact, actually been to the plane and carefully perused an area for an eventual teleportation without error spell. The table for the teleport spell is used, with the caster's knowledge of the area to which transportation is desired used to determine the chance of error.
Thus, a baatezu's Teleport without Error is only "without Error" in Baator. Traveling to other planes requires the caster to have personally been there and perused it carefully, and even then, there is still a 2% chance of instant death (see the AD&D 2e Teleport spell).
As per AD&D 2e's Faces of Evil: The Fiends, this actually is instant death for weaker yugoloths and tanar'ri, and even more powerful yugoloths and tanar'ri and most baatezu will have to spend time reforming if they die off their home plane.
Thus, planar pathways are important for allowing teleporters to reach a place and study it first-hand, and then enabling them to teleport there without a 2% chance of instant death.
Additionally, as for a very serious and *exceedingly* comprehensive take on how the Lady of Pain might be defeated, Planewalker.com has a highly comprehensive guide, which is roughly 95% based on canonical material and 5% based on Mimir.net and Planewalker.com fanon:
http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/possible-inspiration-untrimmed-killing-lop-article
>>44914228
>Why wage a war across the lower planes
Almost all engagements are fought for their own sake, since almost everyone involved can blink a thousand or more miles away, or to a different plane, each round.
Certainly, almost all Blood War engagements fought in any of the intermediate planes are going to be because your borderline useless auxiliaries need babysitting or because both sides are too prideful or consumed by bloodlust. Its just something to do, especially since neither side will be permanently destroyed in such an engagement.
>There's no defense against the faction that can control Sigil,
Gross exaggeration. Occasionally an enemy may stumble upon a portal to something important, which will probably be gone by the time he alerts his higher ups, or may turn into unlimited fiend works.
The main significance of Sigil is to Primes.
>>44914240
>Thus, planar pathways are important for allowing teleporters to reach a place and study it first-hand, and then enabling them to teleport there without a 2% chance of instant death.
Isn't there always a 1% chance of instant death?
>>44911835
Spelljammer was such a pleasant surprise for me.
It was something the designers was pressured by shoddy management to rush out (wanted to take advantage of space stuff) in barely any time at all, but they were skilled enough to nail it.
>>44912710
>Sigil is neither unique nor important enough to think that its presence or absence would "disrupt the multiverse."
Nobody is saying that.
Sigil is important to Sigil.
If you want an adventure in Sigil-like setting, you need LoP-like entity because otherwise any such setting instantly explodes. Even from just, say, demon vs devil Blood War exploding into it immediately.
If you don't want to play in Sigil, then it's and Lady's existence are completely irrelevant to you.
>>44914471
I misspoke there; I should have said "and alternatively enabling them to travel there manually without a 2% chance of instant death."
Teleport without Error specifically limits the caster to "studied carefully" at best.
If someone wishes to reach a specific planar location without that 2% chance of instantaneous death from Teleport without Error, a method apart from that spell is necessary.
>>44914489
Spelljammer and Planescape are fully compatible and even referenced together in page 32 of the Planewalker's Handbook. It is probably a good idea to use them together so as to make even the Prime Material Plane feel wild and exotic.
>>44912211
What is even the appeal of Spelljammer anyways? I just don't get it.
>>44914517
>Nobody is saying that.
>>44910145
>>44912409
>>44914551
Setting crossover if desired, very aberration heavy weirdness (my personal favorite is an ooze creature that blends multiple creatures together into a hellish collective), fondness for spaceships or artillery pieces, and the most subtly useful for the DM of all -- the ability to use the same battlemap over and over again in new fresh situations.
Hey teej, I once saw a reference in an obscure 2e Dark Sun book that talks about how difficult it is to enter and leave Athas's portion of the multiverse, anyone know where this was? Can't seem to find it.
>>44908618
Lets up the ante.
SAITAMA randomly lands in Sigil.
He punches a demon a little too hard and wrecks portion of a city.
Lady of Pain shows up.
WHO
WINS
>>44914611
I've heard it's like Age of Sail Space Opera D&D.
>>44914649
He gets mazed. End of the story.
>>44914680
He punches his way out of the maze.
>>44914669
I hope you don't get reported
>>44914704
You can't "punch" through the maze same way you can't punch through time or bad mood.
>>44914723
Sure you can
>>44910219
This is hilarious, what's this from?
>>44908618
D&D is a generally nothing but a masturbatory power fantasy for people with little to no power. So if you put something outside of players reach in it they feel powerless again. And if it's a cold, distant female figure they feel humiliated.
>>44914772
Immortals Handbook.
>>44914791
True, but still bait.The best kind.
>>44914772
Pretty sure it's that third party published Immortal's Handbook or whatever it was called. it's full of weird shit like that.
>>44914551
Because it'sreally goddamn fun.
>>44914822
That's not a fucking argument. You just can't figure out why you think you like it so you just use buzzwords.
>>44914621
The Planewalker's Handbook says this, but I'm not sure what DS book you're referencing.
>>44914791
Thanks Freud
>>44914833
>fun is a buzzword
Hi /v/.
>>44914802
>>44914772
Worth mentioning that the level one jillion shit is the absolute minority of the book and most of it is in the level 21-60 range.
>>44914833
>>fun
>>buzzword
>>44914833
Someone already gave a lengthier explanation that was ignored.
>>44914791
>And if it's a cold, distant female figure they feel humiliated.
Way to go injecting your own insecurities into a pretty spot-on summary.
>>44914843
I'm pretty sure that LoP being (supposedly) female is a main reason why she is hated. She basically serves as an abrahamic sort of deity keeping the setting in order but instead of an old guy with a beard she's a chick.
>>44909787
Originally, you got your experience points from finding treasure.
>>44914854
>>44914865
In this specific case, it definitely fits the use of a buzzword.
One anon asks why the setting is appealing. Instead of replying with even a single sentence explaining why they view it as enjoyable and why it appeals to them, they simply reiterate that they find it 'fun' which is essentially repeating the question asked as an answer.
>"why do you like fun?"
>"hurr bcos iz fun durr"
>>44914882
>I'm pretty sure that LoP being (supposedly) female is a main reason why she is hated.
So, the screwball Freud interpretation was serious, not satire? Nah, Planescape is hated on its own merits, not due to the sexism bogeyman.
> She basically serves as an abrahamic sort of deity keeping the setting in order but instead of an old guy with a beard she's a chick.
There's the Dark Powers and the Phlogstion, the LoP isn't unusual in terms of 2e settings having to deal with gods now being virtually omnipotent + either having their own pantheons or something to protect them. Any godlike figure, much less an overgod figure, would be widely hated if he hanged out at Waterdeep or whatever, soulflaying people.
The Wall of the Faithless elicits similar responses to the LoP, come to think of it.
>>44914946
Actually, the anon got a response well prior to "its fun." Learn to read.
>>44914950
I agree with you. The LoP merely looks feminine in a human standard but might and probably isn't one.
The LoP is more likely androgynous, and in-keeping with the whole biblical theme, this makes sense as angels were androgynous.
This all just reeks of anon being afraid of vagina dentata
>>44914962
>one anons opinion is the bench mark and all others are and should be memetic replies
>>44914991
Maybe they could have ignored the obvious buzzword reply, and responded to the actually thought out one?
>>44909787
That's the S&S genre for ya: nothing is sacred. Though killing is only one of many solutions to most problems...
>>44914970
I always pictured her as a manifestation of the place.
Maybe female looking, but more of a personality given " form".
Not like a real female. Real females are gross of course. ( I hear they bleed in their underwear).
Sigil is the pin keeping all the planes of reality togeather, the spire in the center is like the toothpick keeping a massive sandwhich togeather. The Lady of Pain is basicly the personification of this, in effect The Lady is the personification of Nuclear Force. You can't kill her.
>>44914240
Damn.
Those aren't great ideas for killing her.
Srsly... A lot of effort.
>>44915089
So what you're telling me is the Lady of Pain is a sandwich
>>44915089
That's... really selling Sigil too high. Its a potentially useful place, but its nothing even remotely like, say, Amber.
>>44915104
No, she's the toothpick. You and your friends are the sandwich.
>>44915115
No, it's not. When Vecna managed to get into Sigil, the Lady had to rearrange the entirety of the planes to stop them self destructing.
>>44914611
Sure but it's also incredibly finnicky with mechanics for the intricacies of space travel, leaving and entering atmospheres, solar systems aka crystal spheres, and the most unforgiving thing, the helms. God I hate helms by raw. Nothing like taking the fun out of playing your caster by making it suck so you can actually go places.
>>44915137
>using a PC for the helm
What kind of moron are you?
>>44915115
>>44915132
Like I said do not remove the toothpick, it will cause bad things. If you remove the nuclear force everything goes bad, really bad.
>>44915156
Actually a random thought having just finished reading that list of possible ways of killing her and the possible outcomes, has anyone considered that she might be like a Lich? With Sigil being her phalactery?
>>44915137
I'd rather Spelljammer deal with "real" space and just put magic on it. However I was listing the reasons I liked it, rather than trying to argue why anyone else should like it.
>mechanics for the intricacies of space travel, leaving and entering atmospheres,
Can you refresh my memory as to what the problem with it is?
>Nothing like taking the fun out of playing your caster by making it suck so you can actually go places.
You need like what, 40 dudes or so to crew your ship... you can't find one damn spellcaster? Does your entire party lack henchmen? The fuck is going on?
The PCs don't even have to keep track of the intricacies of the ship, it can just be a central base that move saround.
>>44915197
It does deal with 'real' space, as long as you don't leave the sphere.
And I believe the 'Tale of the Comet' supplement all takes place inside one sphere, because there's no upper limit on the size of a sphere.
>>44915216
>It does deal with 'real' space, as long as you don't leave the sphere.
Eeh, well you retain your own atmosphere, etc. etc. Plus crystal spheres aren't much to my taste, I don't see the use. The phlogstion could just be a hyperspace type dimension used to convey SJs between solar systems in a reasonable time frame, etc.
>>44915197
>Can you refresh my memory as to what the problem with it is?
Far too detailed and intricate rules that are just a pain to use. When you're playing a space opera, you don't care much about leaving and re-entry. You just do. Maybe you're "In for a bumpy ride" landing onto a planet, but for most it's not even a thing of note. You're in space, and you go down to a planet, or vice versa. The Millenium Falcon in Star Wars didn't need to figure out exiting and re-entry calculations, that would be boring. Guess what, those rules are boring.
>>44915240
Han Solo talked a lot about how calculations were important to safe space flight, actually.
But yeah, rules for stuff may be considered bad by some people, I guess? Who knew. Can't really relate to you there, I'm afraid -- better too many rules (which you can ignore) for absolutely essential things like planetfall than "lol just wing it," since I don't need a book to tell me "lol just wing it."
>>44908984
In that case I don't think stats are going to help you
>>44915240
Son, this is a TTRPG. You ignore the rules you don't want to use.
>>44915440
I'd rather not have boring rules in the first place.
>>44915448
So its not enough that you not partake of something, others must be forbidden from having fun as well? Extreme petulance.
>>44915448
Good thing nobody writes RPGs specifically for you then, isn't it?
>>44915475
If they have fun with meticulous rules they're better off playing wargames.
>>44911288
the only way you could destroy sigil is if you got to it from outside the torus problem is the spire its on is infinintly high so it cant be reached
>>44910507
::cough::aleph-naught, anon::cough::
Also, they totally made a character that can kill Pun-Pun, they abort it from time.
>>44908618
>mortals
>degeating LoP
>becoming kings of sigil
you do know that the only person who is keeping the gods and other creeps out of sigil is LoP right? If you get rid of her than sigil will no longer be sigil
>>44915481
>RPGs shouldn't have meticulous rules
Back to Apocalypse World with you.
>>44911628
Two separate but related mythologies using cognate words: one in which orcs were a kind of undead thing (inspired D&D god), one in which they were a kind of troll/ogre (inspired Tolkien race which inspired D&D race).
>>44911722
>Tritons (race) don't worship Triton (god)
They did in the first edition! You have no idea how long I've saved that fact.
But since then D&D moved away from real deity names; for deities that is.
>>44915153
One who would like to let his players roleplay their own ship?
>>44911628
>Elvis
>not the god of elfs
>>44915592
You know players can hire hirelings, right? That they can hire somebody specifically to be on the helm if the PCs don't want to use up their spells?
>>44915558
Triton's weird. He only shows up in that one bit in the Triton description, but not in Deities and Demigods/Legends and Lore, nor in On Hallowed Ground, nor in Monster Mythology.
>>44915558
You know, I think Orcus really was the name of a deity of some kind, and Orcus and Demogorgon were mentioned in Paradise Lost, while Lucifer traveled through the chaos realm, iirc?
>>44915644
10 entire seconds of my life sacrificed to Wikipedia says you're right. Roman/Etruscan god of broken oaths (curious connection to warlocks there).
He was often conflated with gods of death and the underworld, and that directly inspired Orcus. However the Latin god and underworld legends also inspired tales of bogeymen that ate human flesh, which inspired Tolkien's use of the word.
>>44908744
His humanity should be way higher.
>>44915642
>>44915592
Caster hirelings are pretty rare (I don't think any exist by default other than the 1e sage, not that the DM can't introduce them in his game), but caster henchmen are fairly normal.
>>44908744
>1 dice to perform actions during day
nice try shitlord, looks like the sun wins again
>>44915684
>Roman/Etruscan god of broken oaths (curious connection to warlocks there).
Neato.
>>44914704
Not sure that's really his thing, is it? I figure if he's in there long he'll just get depressed.
>>44915691
I'd agree, personally, but it all depends on the interpretation you want.
>>44915711
Maybe part of "doesn't matter" is that he ignores that rule? Of course, the "you fucking lose" part should cover that, too.
>>44915697
The terminology is different, but the idea is the same: Let the PCs hire spellcasters for their crew.
Interestingly, by RAW only wizards and clerics can power spelljammer helms, which means rangers, paladins, bards, druids, etc. cannot.
>>44915896
Unless of course you're aboard a mindflayer vessel.
Then anyone can sit at the helm... at the cost of their life.
>>44908618
The lady of Pain he no stats she is just a plot device that is needed for Sigil to exist. As Sigil is basically just a town but everything in it has over 9000 levels compared to normal towns. Basically someone had the idea to make a hub city for high level adventurers where they can just take a rest while superheroing between two plain travels. However everyone realized that the existence for such a place defines common sense when inserted into the setting. So basically they came up with the laziest hand-weave answer which is the lady of pain, a plot device NPC who never does anything but babysits Sigil for absolutely no reason just keep it working so that PCs can have their over the top shit.
I bet the Lady of pain is sick an tired of her job really...
>>44915922
Illithids use series and pool helms. Lifejammers are neogi things.
>>44908618
It's probably be necessary to destroy Sigil itself and though it, her. And that's a Bad Thing.
>>44915998
not really, lady is at the same time a defender and a prisoner. Everyone is in reallity happy that LoP is in sigil because if she was not she would carve out a new peace of land and given how poerfull she is anyone could be a victime
>>44908618
Technically she doesn't have one because of how vital she is to Planescape and how OPASFUCKPLSNERF she is, but there are stats for her.
And they make her really OP. Seriously, you just need to graze her clothes and you automatically are mazed forever.
Also how's her private life look? Yeah being THE TRUEST Neutral is hard work for her, but does she have like a hobby when she's not mazing people or having them skinned when her shadow falls on them?
I bet she plays Scrabble with her Dabus. People love Scrabble.
>>44916648
i think she's secratly a ca/tg/irl. If you enter her chambers there are tons and tons of bord games
