besides being a lesson about tactical retreat, what do you call a situation where the enemy is there just to teach the players that no every enemy can be beat, and that sometimes you just have to run away?
Call of Cthulhu
Well, I'd call it a situation where the enemy is there just to teach the players that not every enemy can be beaten, and that sometimes you just have to run away.
The Cane of Humility.
>>44877407
A Kobayashi Maru test.
'Bad GMing'.
You're not a teacher. You aren't running the game to impart lessons into your players.
Having a fight that can't be beaten is fine, but if you're doing it to 'teach them a lesson' then you're just an asshole.
>>44877407
Curbstomping
I'd call it bad players who didn't powergame hard enough.
>>44877654
He may not be there to teach them but facing new foes and learning their methods allows them to learn about the game world in a sense.
>>44877654
Sometimes you have to get them out if the 3e D&D fleeing is bad mindset.
>>44877696
If I want to do that I'll, y'know, talk to them. Explain that this system/setting/game uses a different set of assumptions, ensure they understand how the context they're in is different and that the standard methods of approach might not always be the best. Rather than relying on a vague IC 'lesson' which could be interpreted any number of ways.
>>44877654
i don't even play tabletops dude, i was just curious as to what its called and figured /tg/ would know, so if you could please un-wad your panties that would be great
>>44877810
>Comes to a tabletop board
>Doesn't want tabetop advice
Well the english language is limited so there isn't a word for everything or an appropriate phrase. Sorry mate.
>>44877731
Mindsets are hard to change m80. Especially one fostered for 8+ years.
>>44877840
i never said i wanted tabletop advise, i was asking about a situation that could be used in video games also. the only reason i'm asking /tg/ instead of anywhere else is because i have read about this situation in D&D before.
>>44878228
Always loved how painfully obvious caster edition fags don't go for the meat of the actual argument (poorly tested spells with spell bloat) and instead have to rely on muh end game spells, muh poor understanding of sleep, muh not having the reading comprehension of a two year old.
>>44877654
Incorrect. The first encounters of a campaign help set the tone for the rest of the campaign. If you're including situations where encounters with enemies can/should be resolved by means other than "hit it until it dies," you need to have some of the initial encounters be blatant examples. For instance, make an encounter with a creature that's big, intimidating, and, from both in-game and meta standpoints, something the party is in no position to deal with. Then, when the inevitable "do we really have to beat this thing?" comes up, you can point out that the party can just go out the entrance which the creature can't fit through.
Speaking from experience here; one of the most immersive encounters I've ever been in was our party playing a game of cat and mouse with some monstrosity covered in blades and shit. Having to navigate a maze of dark caves, holding still in hide-holes while the fucker was just inches away, and having to rub the last stretch to the entrance with him right on our heels was fun as fuck. Terrifying, but fun.
>>44878847
...Or you could just talk to your players and explain the intended tone and themes of the game in advance? Whenever I pitch a campaign, I always ensure that my players are on the same page, avoiding the need for an arbitrary tutorial section to waste time with.
>>44877407
a TPK
>>44878926
Even if you explain as closely as you can, it's hard to convey a feeling.
The first session of what has become a trilogy of campaigns had my three players investigating an alleged cultist as he held a social event, giving food to the poor and needy.
It ended with Mutants ambushing the players, a player got his skull caved in and had to get it replaced with a cut of shaped metal, effectively jamming a bit of a car door inplace of his skull. Meanwhile another player wrestled with a gunman atop a pile of metal rubbish. It set the tone far better than a pep talk could have.
>>44877654
To be fair i kind of agree with this guy.
My last DM got this serious case of the dickishness, Hitting us with way overpower enemies and always talking about how he feels he "needs to instill a sense of mortality" or "fear of death" in the players.
He literally wanted us to make up like five characters each just so he could run them through Tomb or Horrors.
If you want to do the "fight you need to run from" idea you need to make sure there's some kind of sign or idea, have them know the enemy is supposed to be some super badass who no one has ever beaten or have an NPC ally ready to pull them out, or the floor cave in or something, because otherwise they're probably operating on the idea that the DM wouldn't put them in an unwinnable fight.
>>44877407
Bad grammar
>>44877840
>the english language is limited
no it isn't
read more faggot
>>44879133
/thread
a friend of mine was in an 'experienced' party that encountered a bear on their first session and, deciding that a mere bear was no problem for 5 5th level characters, attacked it head on.
Several bad rolls and a substantial mauling later, they were humbled and learned to give even the shortest moment's thought before arbitrarily bum rushing monsters
>>44882987
Yes it is. You degenerates don't even have a word for Schadenfreude
>>44878847
That encounter sounds baller as hell. What system was it, and how did the GM run the encounter in terms of crunch?
>>44883452
So Schadenfreude gets used, and everyone understands what it means. What's the problem there?
>>44883452
>degenerates
>for not having a word for enjoying the suffering of others
Really...
>>44877407
I like to call it a 'Retrograde Advance"
Doesn't work with just a single enemy in Dnd-esc games (which most people in this thread will instantly assume you are talking about), you just come off as a dick and the lesson is missed.
What I do is have a situation with very beatable foes, but in absurd numbers. Players need to fight their way through, get maguffin, then fight their way out. or they do something foolish (think Pippin in Khazad Dum) and awaken the horde with they were specifically told stealth was key.
Individual foes are easy to beat, but the issue is there is 200-800 of them. Lets the players feel powerful with cutting down literal legions, but still aware that this is a fight they cant win so they need to fight on the run and not get overwhelmed.
"We're Not Retreating; We're Advancing in a Different Direction"
- General Oliver P. Smith
>>44877426
This
Good luck getting entitled 3.PF players to play Call of Cthulhu tho.
ive tried it. 3 hours talking about gun stats, 1 hour bitchng about having to roll stats, 1 hour making pop culture Cthulhu references, 30 mins being baffled that the campaign is centered around Nyarlathotep not Cthulhu, 1 hour watching them kill each other, 30mins of them bitching about the game and trying to convince me to run pathfinder instead.
Thank fuck I have a new group. Now I can play Call of cthulhu AND paranoia without whineing.
>>44884088
>3 hours talking about gun stats, 1 hour bitchng about having to roll stats, 1 hour making pop culture Cthulhu references, 30 mins being baffled that the campaign is centered around Nyarlathotep not Cthulhu, 1 hour watching them kill each other, 30mins of them bitching about the game and trying to convince me to run pathfinder instead.
>>44884088
It's because you play Cthulhu to be a human in a fantastic and horrifying world while most people want power fantasy where you mow down legions of little green men and top it off by making "LE EPIC TG WORTHY STORY WIT EXPLOSVIONS AND DROOGONS BENG KILLED WITH STONS FALLING FROM CEELING FROM WIZARD BALLFIRE!!!"
>>44883790
That brings back memories.
>>44877654
It was more of a marketing decision, but I love the 5E Starter Set's decision to include a fucking ADULT DRAGON for a party of level 1-3 characters.
The game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, it has to be fun. Running away from that dragon is the kind of thing you talk about for years after, and it inspires you to level up so you can eventually kill it (and/or monsters like it).
Since the module does act as a tutorial, having a "sometimes, retreating is the best choice" set piece was a good idea. Nobody is being an asshole when the PCs wander into the dragon's den and guess what? They can't handle the dragon.
>>44883452
Do you not know what a loanword is?
>>44884153
>mfw a player rolled 18 Luck and declared he was going to become a powerful sorcerer
>>44884331
How many spells later until he cursed the sanity system?
>>44884388
4. Was doing a campaign based around Mi-Go abducting people using Greys as heavy inspiration and cover-story. He decided to contact one so it decided to say 'hi' back in the only way a Mi-Go knows how. Sadly, he never had the chance to go mad.
>>44884628
How darling of him to think contacting monsters is a good idea.
>>44878847
You've just made something click for me after a decade of issues. Thank you.
>>44884840
>mfw his last words were "Take me to your leader!"
>>44885032
What the hell did you expect to happen? Going full Henderson because "he heard a good story about it"? To sacrifice himself in a heroic manner and end that evils of the Mi-Go?
>>44877407
I did this with the isle of dread. Placed a large dragon lair in the middle. I mentioned in in the ships log that the players found (to get them to the island). It was what stopped the prior expedition.
I used it as terrain. Something the players needed to go around.
>>44877652
Best response.
>>44885224
He thought he could negotiate with eldritch horrors cuz he was so lucky.
This was before Henderson went around. He was just a fool who thought CoC worked like DnD and never bothered to read the rules I gave him.
>>44877407
I generally call it 'Fuck you guys, if you insist on attacking every NPC who seems even remotely suspicious, I am going to rain shit on you until you cry'
>>44877652
perfect
>>44883781
>>44882987
Language is incredibly limited. I mean, not just because of all the kickback whenever some queer academic "makes up" a word to describe a concept that didn't have one, but just in general translating complex thoughts into simple statements doesn't really work. Language introduces ambiguity, and limiting language can even limit thought. But if everyone was capable of transmitting thoughts, language would be seen as quaint and childish. I mean, no matter how well I describe something to you, chances are you won't ever picture it accurately. And that's true of any language. It's not that English is limited, it's that Language as a concept is.
>>44877426
>>44884088
>>44884134
>>44884153
My problem with Call of Cthulhu--and this is as someone who irritates the group by wanting to put caps on WoD traits that can be taken at character creation, so not some 3.5 powergamer--is that it restricts you far too much. I played one game of CoC D20 and my character was barely competent at things a normal human would be competent at. It was impossible to play a former boxer turned archeologist because I just didn't have enough points. To know how to punch people AND use a gun, I'd need two Feats. Every weapon required Proficiency and every Proficiency was a different Feat and being basically competent in D20 requires more than a +1.
Of course, when we finally faced the monsters, the ST also put me in a position where I was going to die no matter what. I either go up the stairs and get burned by the fire, or I go down the stairs and get eaten by the goat demon.
So I punched the goat demon. One hit KO. Then the ST decided the floor caved and there were fifteen more monsters. I stopped play.
Call of Cthulhu feels even MORE like D&D in the whole "the Dungeon Master is evil and will cheat to make you die" sort of way. It feels like the whole system is meant to be as unfun and your characters are as useless as possible and you're not supposed to care about them.
>>44886168
If you give any credence to the Chomsky theory that our language architecture is limited in a cognitive sense, then we need language to put into thoughts, rather than thoughts to put into language. At which point it's not that language is limited, it's that we are limited in our capabilities from having language hardcoded at either a neurological or a cognitive level.
>CoC d20
Found your problem there mate. I own the CoC d20 book and it's just terrible. Good advice and some good art, and the old fashioned CoC cthulhu rules that he eats 1d4 investigators each round is still present, but the rules are a terrible mess. For the reasons you mentioned, as well as others.
>>44886708
It's not so simple as that. Language is limited, but also limiting. Language will always be worse than pure thought, but our language still shapes how we think. Its recursive. Thought would be unlimited, but by trying to put thought into language, we restrict ourselves. It's why someone from one country might call two colours shades of the same colour, but another calls them different terms.
And I'll admit that a lot of the problem is d20, and it's part of why I was ambivalent about Monte Cook's Cipher system, but a lot of what I experienced in that game is still the general CoC attitude I see.
"Don't get attached to your character, their story doesn't matter, you're going to die, the ST will cheat". Like, I don't want power fantasies where I punch out Cthulhu, but I still want something less futile than how CoC fans act. I'm not a big Lovecraft fan, but his protagonists still at least accomplish SOMETHING and keep the world from ending.
>>44877626
Spare the rod...spoil the party.
Its needed sometimes.
>>44886915
Or you could talk to your players.
Or you could run a game your players want
>>44877652
This this could have satisfactorily ended here.
>>44877407
Last time I did this my players died, and every singletime I do it it's always the same, they have some weird lack of sence.
PS yes it's always the same persons. Once my level 7 wizard runned out of high damage speels, grabbed a rapier and charged to his death, needless to say I no longuer care about storyline with these people i just throw them into a random generated dungeon don't even come with why they are there or what tha hell there chars are.
It's called teaching players not to try because success or failure depends on whether the GM wants you to win this one.
>>44886859
I play a fair bit of Call, and it is one of my preferred systems. It seems we play very different versions of it. I tend to run my games as quite small scale things. It's a small group of people dealing with all that small human bullshit like work and socializing and love lives and petty politics and all that nonsense. Then they have to deal with an extraordinary implication that could tear their lives asunder.
>Don't get attached to your character
Good advice. Your character isn't superman, and they might be doing some dangerous things. I don't get super attached to video characters for the same reason.
>their story doesn't matter
This I disagree with. It seems your (one) experience was with a bad gm and a bad system. I've been there, all gm's start bad. Instead the personal, small, story of the characters relationships with their knowledge is what I think is most important in CoC.
>You're going to die
We're all going to die, anon. Fact of life unless Kurzweil is right and then if you're rich you can be immortal.
>the ST will cheat
Depends what you mean by cheating. Not playing RAW? While you might technically be able to blow up cthulhu with sufficient dynamite I'm pretty much not going to let that happen. While you could punch out a shoggoth, I'm not going to let that happen. Rules of the narrative take control over rules of the game.
>>44877407
It's called turning hubris into humility
>>44877652
Mah nigga
>>44882987
Do you mean, "Read, more faggot?" or "Read more, faggot?" or "Read: more faggot?"
>>44883452
How's that German word for "sushi" or "fun" coming along?
>>44877407
Its called 100,000 Guards Infantry flooding the streets of Stalingrad. Thats what it's called.
>>44884956
Oh? Well then, glad to be of help.
>>44883652
I can't remember the exact system; I'm pretty sure it was Fantasycraft, but not sure.
As for crunch, the basic premise was that the thing could only see movement, so we didn't have to spam sneak checks, just find the little hide-holes the thing couldn't fit through or stay pressed against the walls as it passed by. However, staying outside the holes risked it bumping into you/hearing you, in which case you had to make a resolve check to not run away/shit yourself/otherwise reveal yourself. If you did get spotted, you'd generally be able to run around a corner and have two or three rounds to find a hide-hole before it caught up. The problem being that this cave system was fraught with dead-ends.
It helped that the way he'd describe it snuffling around and giving a guttural hiss right in your face really made it feel terrifying. It's spikes made us take damage if we attacked it at close range, and arrows didn't seem to have any effect, so once we realized that fighting it wouldn't end well, we all focused on getting out of the caves, which was our original goal anyway.
It was possible to take actions while it was visible, but that required stealth checks that increased in difficulty for more complex tasks. Generally it was better to just let it pass by, then go the opposite way, but it saved our Captain's life when he got cornered in a dead end with no hideholes. He almost didn't pass his resolve check, and it looked like he was about get found out when the party assassin used her bonuses to sneak to essentially yell at it and draw it away. It was an incredibly risky move on her part, as it proceeded to linger outside of her hide-hole for four turns before finally moving on, but it gave the captain time to get out and get to a hide-hole.
>>44877731
>"Hey, you guys have to remember that you can't kill everything and that running away or avoiding fights is a valid solution"
>"Haha sure senpai"
>PCs spot a group of dragons destroying a village
>"Let's kill them, nothing has beaten us yet lmao"
>>44886859
> "Don't get attached to your character, their story doesn't matter, you're going to die, the ST will cheat"
Wow, no. Your story does matter, that's what makes it all the more horrific. And a Call of Cthulhu GM doesn't have to cheat.
>>44877407
>>44887832
I really wish shitty DMs wouldn't throw obvious enemies you are supposed to defeat at you and then act surprised when you try to defeat them.
I mean, god, if you are going to have a battle you are supposed to lose, do it right. Video games have been doing it for since the start of video games, and you guys aren't even able to do that.
>>44887494
This. You're better than your players and they should know it. Why should they, in the course of playing a game, think they have any chance of success? Keep putting them up against impossible odds, and if they beat those, fudge the dice. Crush their spirits. Soon they'll realize the truth: It isn't a game. It's them listening to your fanfiction for four hours. And this is as it should be.
>>44887880
And what is the right way, pray tell?
It's called "showing your players whose boss" and is a popular way for GMs to stroke their own egos at the expense of players feeling like their being present at the game matters for any purpose besides the GM revelling in their misery.
Throwing unbeatable odds in a game so the players have to do a certain thing or so they can feel stronger when ultimately they can beat it is one thing, but throwing them in the game to teach the players "a lesson" is a huge douchebag move and likely to result in them no longer trying because the DM has decided in advance whether or not they'll win.
>>44887880
Those fucking suck in video games too. You go in and either waste a ton of resources not knowing you're supposed to lose to this one, try and hit yourself to get it over with faster, or actually win and still end up a red smear on the ground at the start of the next cutscene.
>>44887880
>all the monsters that appear must be defeated
Why don't you try playing D&D B/X for a while and tell me how that goes for you?
>>44887832
This.
>dming a game with 4 players
>they enter a mine to kill a couple kobolds
>they just kept fucking going...on and on.
>find a nest of drow..get luckier than any group has a right to be
>finally make their way back to the surface..kill a pack of gnolls ( using really clever tactics)
>get back to town..have gone from lv 2 to lv 5.
>omg...we are invincible!!!
First thing they do? Pick a fight with the city watch..thump a dozen of them. Why? Because we're fucking bad assessed. What can hurt us?
>>44888097
Not that anon, but that post didn't even say that. That post said that there are ways to do fights you're supposed to lose, properly.
Regardless, in B/X there was a way around or a way to avoid dying besides just "leave the dungeon and wish you were a bad enough dude for adventure."
There's a huge difference between
>there's a dragon in there... better not go in there!
and
>haha, motherfuckers! I put a dragon here! Run away! This is for your own good! Now you know that there's stuff that could kill your characters! I'm such a good teacher! Ahahaha! Ignore my erection under the table!
>>44877654
so the players should win all fights forever? id hate to play in one of your campaigns.
>>44887949
the game keeps going.
>>44888310
>Having a fight that can't be beaten is fine.
Did you not read that part?
>>44888079
better than "haha, you lost, new party time"
>>44888310
not him, but where exactly are you getting
>players should win all fights forever
from
>having a fight that can't be beaten is fine
>>44888097
>Oh no, the dragons are destroying the village!
>If only some hero could save us
sounds like they must be defeated to me.
What kind of hero would you be if you didn't try?
>DMing a game of D&D 5e
>tell players it's going to be a dungeon crawl
>put them in a dungeon with a bunch of orcs
>give the players weapons
>players try to kill the orcs
>orcs are clearly beating them due to superior numbers and a better knowledge of the layout of the dungeon letting them get in a better tactical position
>players run away
>orcs follow, cutting them down
>players seem upset
>I tell them they shouldn't have tried to fight the orcs in the first place
>they seem confused
>I say "look, sometimes you just have to run away. Let this be a lesson to you."
>they ask how they were supposed to know they couldn't beat the first enemies they encountered in the game
>I point out that sometimes challenges are tougher than they appear and you can't know until you try
>One of them says this is ridiculous and if you can't know until you try, how do you know if you should try in the first place?
>I smile and shrug
>nobody shows up the following week
Some players just don't want to learn.
>>44877407
This entire thread would be made obsolete if GMs were smart enough to include save points in their campaign.
They aren't, and suddenly an infinity of problems arise due to the inevitable misconceptions of trying to play a person in an alien world with at most 30 minutes of catching up.
>>44888460
sounds like ur loss honestly
>>44888548
thatisthepointyouidiot
>>44888369
There's a thin line between being a hero and being borderline suicidal.
>>44888569
And that line is holding a sword and wearing armor while you jump at the thing that is killing everybody.
>>44888504
It's because GMs try to emulate video games and have death everywhere, but don't realize that's not sustainable without savepoints.
I mean, how often does conan die? Not often at fucking all.
How often does protagonist from any RPG video game die? pretty fucking often.
So, since GMs get their ideas of running games from video games rather than fantasy, they decide everything has to be super lethal and players have to have immediate horrible consequences, because videogames told them to.
>>44888587
No, it's being strategic: A dead hero helps nobody.
If you know that you'd be defeated in direct combat, you may look for a different strategy.
Who knows, maybe you can find siege weapons, negotiate, or maybe even distract them through a clever trick.
>>44888649
Or, as OP would have you do, run away because you can't win and then yell GOOD GAME EVERYBODY, I SURE ENJOYED ROLLING TO TRY TO CONVINCE THE BARTENDER TO GIVE ME A DISCOUNT SO I COULD AFFORD TO DRINK ENOUGH TO FORGET THE SOUND OF THOSE FLAMING VILLAGERS.
>>44888649
None of those things were described in the original scenario.
If you want me to MAKE SHIT UP to beat the dragon, gimme some fate points and player control over the scene.
ITT: The reason you sit down and talk about the flavour and type of campaign you want to run with your players in session 0
Fucking. Amateurs.
>believing in no-win scenarios
I like to have my players give me detailed, complicated backstories with lots of family and such, give them a very story-focused first session, and then in the second session, put them in dangerous situations where any of them could die at any moment and there's no way to know what will result from their actions or how to maximize their chances of making it out alive. But at the end of that session, I kill their characters off regardless, brutally, and describe their families mourning.
Then I hand them pre-made neutral good human fighters with names like Frank and Bob, tell them not to get attached, and stick them in a dungeon module I downloaded off the Internet.
![man-and-lever[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tVeujig.jpg "man-and-lever[1].jpg")
>>44888675
Don't you get it? You have all what you need to solve any situation right here
>>44888808
Levers, fulcrums, and weights were not included in the description of dragons attacking the village.
Perhaps there are some problems with using a text only interface to describe wide swaths of scenario and scenarios.
>>44879133
Was going to write exactly this. Most players won't retreat. It's not even that they think they are entitled to win everything, it's something else. They just try to win everything and don't understand that losing can lead to greater victory, because dead men tell no tale.
>>44888862
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
TO THE *NORTH* YOU SEE *SOME DRAGONS*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*.
>
>>44889039
SNIFF *some dragons*
>>44889039
Eeeeeeh. I'll go west.
>>44889068
THERE ARE NO *SOME DRAGONS* HERE
TO THE *NORTH* YOU SEE *SOME DRAGONS*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*
>
>>44889073
>GO WEST
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *LUMBERJACK*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *VILLAGE*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*
>
>>44888460
> if you can't know until you try, how do you know if you should try in the first place
Didn't expect to see Meno's Paradox on /tg/ tonight.
>>44889143
>EAST
>>44889159
...I didn't know it was actually a paradox. I just came up with it as part of a bullshit greentext story. Interesting.
>>44889167
>EAST
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
TO THE *NORTH* YOU SEE *SOME DRAGONS*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*.
>
>>44889224
WEST
>>44889235
>WEST
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *LUMBERJACK*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *VILLAGE*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*
>
>>44889224
USE SWORD
>>44889249
EEEAST
>>44889143
TAKE *lumberjack*
>>4488928
YOU CAN'T TAKE THE *Lumberjack*. It is too heavy.
>>44889251
>USE SWORD
USE SWORD WITH WHAT
>>
>>44889274
>EEEAST
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *LUMBERJACK*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *VILLAGE*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*
>
>>44889286
>TAKE *lumberjack*
YOU TRY TO TAKE THE *LUMBERJACK*
YOUR STRENGTH ISN'T HIGH ENOUGH TO TAKE THE *LUMBERJACK*
THE *LUMBERJACK* OBJECTS, INCREASING THE DIFFICULTY
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *LUMBERJACK*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *VILLAGE*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*
>
>>44889321
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *LUMBERJACK*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *VILLAGE*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*
>
Gah..I miss those games sometimes.
>>44887880
>group of flying dragons torching a village
>hurr durr let's fight them
>no planning either, they just Leeroy Jenkins the burning village
>this is bad DMing when they die
>>44888343
So you're actually suggesting that the DM make it so the party can never lose, just to spare them the pain of making new characters?
>>44888671
That sounds like a good roleplaying opportunity.
Too bad we're not talking about roleplaying games.Oh wait.
>>44889379
USE SWORD with SWORD
>>44889438
Nope.
I am asking them to at least be as good as videogames are at losing a fight and still playing the game.
It is a sad day when GMs aren't even as good at video games at creative solutions to problems.
>>44889514
YOU CANNOT USE *SWORD* WITH ITSELF
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *LUMBERJACK*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *VILLAGE*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*
>
>>44889586
NORTH
>>44889415
A few sessions ago.
Lv 3 party.
Psion, monk, sorc, dickass bard
>OK you guys see the ship you were told about.
>the statue may be on it, or they may take it into town to sell
>"how many pirates do we see?"
>"you see 14 plus the captain "
A discussion takes place as they debate how to handle this..
1) charge in, broad daylight. Kill everyone. Loot it all.
2) wait for a small group to leave the ship, ambush them. Steal statue.
3) go to guards. Tattle. Aquire statue legally.
4)try stealth, since there were 2 pots of invis.
5) use a distraction.
6) infiltration
Take a guess....option 1 of course. Tpk.
They look at me and say "oh cmon!! There was no fucking way we could win that fight!"
They were just trying to get a reward. Not even a quest really.
But I was the bad guy somehow.
>" fuck! I liked that character a lot!!"
Mfw
>>44889642
Man, I know your pain.
I've lived that situation too many times, and as I hear the plans of my players, I drop hints about avoiding a direct confrontation.
>"They are more than you guys"
>"They seem to be well prepared in case they get ambushed"
>"Those guys in pajamas seem to be scribbling stuff in the ground at regular intervals while reading a book and mumbling something"
>>44889642
>>44889727
>what do we see?
>oh, just these enemies
Adurr, why did the players choose interacting with the thing I described first?
Must be because everyone but me is dumb. That is the ticket.
>>44889638
>GO NORTH
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *BEAR*
THERE IS A *LOG*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *SOME DRAGONS*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*
>
>>44889642
>>44889727
>players enter a fight they cannot win
>kill their characters, force the game to restart
Not even as advanced as videogames, which either would have save points or more game after the defeat.
GMs of such low quality they can't even compete with scripted video games in on the fly thought.
>>44889741
TALK with BEAR
>>44889727
Yes sir.
I sat right there and tried to convince them it was bad..
The fucking bard.." Guys we can do this. I doubt they can even hit us. If we start to lose, dive overboard. "..
>" OK. If you guys are sure. Final chance to decide another wiser course.
>No! We go!!!
>Roll your surprise attacks and let's do this then...*sigh*
>>44889768
>TALK with BEAR
THE *BEAR* DOESN'T SAY MUCH
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *BEAR*
THERE IS A *LOG*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *SOME DRAGONS*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*
>
>>44889735
I also described a dead fish on the docks...they didn't attack that.
Fuckhead.
>>44877407
Some books suggest giving individual players a run-through of a test scenario unrelated to the game to help them ease into the mindset of playing.
>>44889844
>>44889804
see
>>44889750
If you can't come up with a way for the game to continue on your toes after the players lose, you are less advanced than a 1990s videogame.
>>44889847
Fuck that.
Rape the new player.
Every thrust tell them that's what's going to happen to their character.
>>44889864
Screw that.
Actions have consequences.
Reroll bitches. Next time derp less.
>>44889750
How should it have gone, pray tell?
>>44889831
MOVE *log*
>>44889864
I can think of a million ways.
Could have taken them prisoner..handed them over to guards. Had a gold dragon fly down and save them...but why?
The realms don't need more idiots.
Grab the d6's faggots.
>>44889894
>Screw that. Fuck playing games, let's spend an hour getting everyone a new character now with 90% less investment
Terrible game design.
>>44889902
Players survive by the skin of their teeth, GM changes it to a chase scene.
Players are defeated, GM changes it to a prison scene.
Players are poisoned, GM changes it into a poison hunt.
LITERALLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN STOPPING GAME FLOW THIS IS YOUR ENTIRE JOB
>>44889937
>>44889894
And this is why you are the bad guy.
Instead of working to make the game fun, you decide to take time out of everyone's day to make them reroll.
Why should someone even show up to one of your games on time? You obviously don't respect their time, why should they respect yours?
You can't even put together a darn "you lost" scenario, you're so lazy.
>>44889864
Let's see you come up with something.
>>44889864
>quoting yourself
>>44889960
>>44889963
>being this angry you cannot match a 1990s video game
I mean, even if you have ABSOLUTELY NO CREATIVITY you can do a prison scene. At this point you are just lazy and taking it out on players.
>>44889924
>MOVE *LOG*
YOU CANNOT MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION
YOU ARE IN A FOREST
THERE IS A *BEAR*
THERE IS A *LOG*
TO THE EAST YOU SEE A *SOME DRAGONS*
YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY *FOREST* ON THE *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, AND *WEST*
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*
>
>>44889977
virtoptim? is that you?
>>44889980
Alright, alright. Here we go...
MOVE *EAST*
>>44890034
nah, that's this guy
>>44889894
>>44890039
inb4 TPK
And what the fuck is captcha on?
>>44890051
No, virtoptim is too autistic for trial and error.
>>44890119
Are you kidding? Autists thrive on simple trial and error systems.
They love patterns and shit like that.
>>44890039
>MOVE *EAST*
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44890119
>>44890127
It does sort of sound more autistic to prefer penalyzing bookkeeping over awkward but continued gameplay.
>>44890073
It's on 17549 Fadow, apparently.
Just type the number, it should work.
It *is* Google testing out their image processing software, however. So if for some reason you really don't want to further the algorithm, you can type 'nigger nigger.' That should still work.
>>44890127
Trial and error is stressing, and autists try to keep control over their system so that nothing can go wrong and stress them.
>>44877407
A challenge which needs to be resolved through other means than combat? An enemy that can't be beat in a fight can still be beaten through other means.
>>44890233
I dunno anon, literally every creature tries to avoid stress when possible.
I'm more willing to fall on the side of "autists really love their goddamn patterns" here. And they really love their bookkeeping.
>DM " OK guys you hear rumours of a war brewing to the east. A large army is on the...."
>PC's " army? Where?"
>DM" far to the east it shouldn't be a concern here..."
>PCs " we go east. Find that army. Attack it."
>DM" its an army. A months travel away"
>PC's " don't care. Attack it!"
They die.
>tg "shit DM!! Why tell them about an army if you didn't want them to attack it!!"
kek
You faggots only play on roll20.. Doncha?
>>44890370
you are a kind of shit GM if that happens, yes.
There are so many points in your scenario a GM could have intervened, from the months of travel to session 0 discussion to better player filtering that you have to have failed somewhere for that to happen.
>>44890133
EXTINGUISH *fire*
>>44890399
>EXTINGUISH *fire*
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
TALK with SOME DRAGONS
>>44890396
>>44890370
I am actually RIGHT NOW coming up with a good adventure string just by asking "how" to "we go east".
How do you go east? Do you know the geography?
There may be an ocean in the way. Are you going to ask someone?
If yes, npc interaction
If no, extreme environment encounters which are fun
Then you have the port town scene when they eventually get there
Introduce a barrel chested captain of questionable legality who is willing to take them where they want to go for cheap
yeah, I can work with this
>>44890451
Fuck what's a common list inventory command for these?
>>44890489
I kill the captain.
>>44890519
shipwreck montage!
>>44890490
"inventory" worked in Infocom games.
>>44890468
>TALK with SOME DRAGONS
THE *SOME DRAGONS* DOESN'T SAY MUCH
THE *SOME DRAGONS* HAS NOTICED YOU
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44890490
>Fuck what's a common list inventory command for these?
I ONLY UNDERSTOOD AS FAR AS YOU WANTING TO FUCK
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44890561
FUCK SOME DRAGONS.
>>44890597
>FUCK SOME DRAGONS.
THE *SOME DRAGONS* DECLINE
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44890561
>dragons senpais noticed me
Kyaaah!
>>44890610
SAVE
SAVENAME DRAGON TIME
>>44890709
>SAVE
ERROR
INSUFFICIENT MEMORY
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>SAVENAME DRAGON TIME
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
THE *SOME DRAGONS* APPEARS ANGRY
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44890737
TAKE SOME DRAGONS
>>44890934
>TAKE SOME DRAGONS
YOU TRY TO TAKE THE *SOME DRAGONS*
THE *SOME DRAGONS* OBJECTS, INCREASING THE DIFFICULTY
THE *SOME DRAGONS* IS ANGRY, INCREASING THE DIFFICULTY
YOU TOOK 1X *DRAGON*
THERE IS STILL A *SOME DRAGONS*
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44891029
USE DRAGON with SOME DRAGONS
>>44891029
Usee sword on dragon
>>44891052
>USE DRAGON with SOME DRAGONS
NOTHING HAPPENS
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>>44891059
>Usee sword on dragon
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
YOU TAKE DAMAGE FROM THE FIRE!
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44883452
>Schadenfreude
it's pretty much just the words "harm" and "joy" strapped together. It doesn't make german a better language, and we could start saying "harm-joy" right now whenever we would use schadenfreude in a sentence.
Anyone can strap words together.
>>44891130
EXAMINE FIRE
EXAMINE DRAGONS
/HELP
HELP
/INFO
INFO
>>44891261
EXAMINE *SOME DRAGONS*
PRAY
>>44890490
Usually "inventory" or "I"
http://inform7.com/if/anth/IntroductionToIF.pdf
>>44891029
INVENTORY
>>44890611
You been watching your girl cartoons again, son?
>>44891261
>EXAMINE FIRE
IT'S FIRE
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>EXAMINE DRAGONS
THERE ARE NO *DRAGONS* HERE
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>/HELP
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>HELP
#####################################################
WELCOME TO DRAGONS ADVENTURE!
THIS ADVENTURE WAS WRITTEN TO PROVE A POINT, BUT HAS BECOME SEVERELY SIDETRACKED
PROGRESS THROUGH THE GAME!
COMMANDS ARE TAKE, TALK, EXAMINE/LOOK, USE/USE % WITH %, AND FIGHT
#####################################################
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>/INFO
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>INFO
#####################################################
WELCOME TO DRAGONS ADVENTURE!
THIS ADVENTURE WAS WRITTEN TO PROVE A POINT, BUT HAS BECOME SEVERELY SIDETRACKED
PROGRESS THROUGH THE GAME!
COMMANDS ARE TAKE, TALK, EXAMINE/LOOK, USE/USE % WITH %, AND FIGHT
#####################################################
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>CONT...
>>44891407
>>44891315
>EXAMINE *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE ARE 6 DRAGONS
ONE DRAGON IS RED
ONE DRAGON IS GREEN
ONE DRAGON IS BLACK
ONE DRAGON IS YELLOW
ONE DRAGON IS BLUE
ONE DRAGON IS A SKELETON
THE *SOME DRAGONS* HAS NOTICED YOU!
THE *SOME DRAGONS* IS ANGRY!
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>INVENTORY
DRAGON
SWORD
SWORD
SOCKS X2
RED POTION
BLUE KEY
NOTE
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44887897
But by teaching them This Lesson, then they learn more about The Game.
[spoil]You just lost it.[/spoil]
>>44891417
e s e e n e w atk atk atk
>>44891453
>e s e e n e w atk atk atk
I ONLY UNDERSTOOD AS FAR AS YOU WANTING TO GO EAST
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44887581
> sushi
Japanische Rohfischkost
> fun
Spaß, Freude, Erquickung, Freizeitbeschäftigung, Arbeit
>>44891489
Read NOTE
Use SWORD with DRAGON
Eat SOCKS
>>44891578
>Read NOTE
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>Use SWORD with DRAGON
THE *DRAGON* IS NOW HOLDING THE *SWORD*
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>Eat SOCKS
COMMAND NOT RECOGNIZED
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44877652
I just looked up the "Kobayashi Maru" test, and damn...I didn't even know Star Trek had writers like that on role-call.
>>44877407
I think, in military strategy, that's called a "Designed-to-Fail" scenario.
>>44886168
>CoC d20
wew lad
>>44891614
>>44891578
>>44891315
>>44891261
Finish this up so I can go to sleep.
The story of Thuldool the brave and the valley of 100 ogres.
If you see a valley of 100 ogres, don't do what he did. He was very brave, and very dead.
>>44891760
But his tale is still told, even today.
Sounds mighty heroic to me. Perhaps even legendary.
>>44891614
EXAMINE DRAGON
>>44891785
>EXAMINE DRAGON
A BROWN DRAGON
THE DRAGON IS HOLDING A SWORD
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>>44877407
Kobayashi Maru, and anyone who calls it anything different is wrong.
>>44877654
>You're not a teacher. You aren't running the game to impart lessons into your players.
Depends on the DM and the group.
>>44891657
Now go watch "City on the Edge of Forever" or "Devil in the Dark".
>>44891807
TALK DRAGON
>>44891826
>TALK DRAGON
IT DOESN'T SAY MUCH
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
THERE IS A *SOME DRAGONS*
THERE IS A *FIRE*
YOU CAN GO *EAST*, OR *SOUTH*.
>
>players getting their asses kicked by enemy soldiers
>commander asks "will you surrender yet?"
>player shouts "never!" and keeps attacking
>gets stabbed seven ways from sunday
It really comes down to 'how good of a GM are you?' If you're good, you can have unwinnable-by-design encounters that make the story go places and keep your players interested/give them motivation/provide RP opportunities/whatever. If you're shit, an unwinnable-by-design encounter won't go over well, but neither would anything else you do, that's what you get for being a shit GM.
As the players getting killed for being stupid, there's only so much you can do as a GM. Sure, it's your job to use everything in the world to make the game and the story go on. But it's the player's job to use their characters to make the game and the story go on. If it comes down to you having to hand-hold them and go "you decide to not attack the tough enemies and instead turn around and go back home" that's unfair to the GM (because it's work you shouldn't have to do) AND the players (it's taking agency from them).
If your players are that determined to die, let them die! But do something interesting with it. Resurrect them but make them do something afterward to earn it. Have their story made into a drinking song. Literally anything other than 'you die, roll a new character and we'll never speak of that again.'
tl;dr good GMs should make things good no matter what, but GMs can't always make players not do dumb things. Let them and make the most of it.
>>44891863
*as for the players getting killed, goddammit knew I missed something
>>44891850
MOVE SOUTH
>>44891880
>As for the players getting killed for being stupid
>As for the players
>the players
Damn son, you run some hardcore games.
>>44891881
>MOVE SOUTH
THE *SOME DRAGONS* FOLLOWS YOU FROM THE NORTH
YOU ARE IN A VILLAGE
YOU CAN GO *NORTH*, *SOUTH*, OR *WEST*.
>
>>44884088
The group I play with had no problem switching between the two games. We knew what each one was supposed to be, and adjusted our playstyles accordingly.
Are we the holy grail or something?
>>44891913
MOVE SOUTH
FUCK DRAGON
>>44891557
>fun
>arbeit
This explains a lot
>>44891950
>MOVE SOUTH
YOU ARE IN A SHOP
THERE IS A *SHOPKEEPER*
THERE IS A *RED POTION*
THERE IS A *BLUE POTION*
THERE IS A *STEEL SWORD*
THERE IS A *BUCKET*
>FUCK DRAGON
IT DECLINES
YOU ARE IN A SHOP
THERE IS A *SHOPKEEPER*
THERE IS A *RED POTION*
THERE IS A *BLUE POTION*
THERE IS A *STEEL SWORD*
THERE IS A *BUCKET*
>
>>44877407
A lesson in humility.
>>44877654
Ironically, my GM is also a teacher. Fancy that
>>44880491
>If you want to do the "fight you need to run from" idea you need to make sure there's some kind of sign or idea
I approve.
What what should these signs be?
It would be nice to have some clear-cut situations that the players can recognize.
The only one I can think about is when the players are faced with something they cannot kill or punch, like a rolling boulder or a sudden flood. Creatures are usually killable, so players tend to take the risks.
>>44894554
>clear cut scene
Okay guys we are doing a chase scene now.
Or, if you don't like the meta-approach:
A moving wall.
>>44892109
>FUCK STEEL SWORD
>>44877407
We call that the Nimble Hobbit situation.
>>44892109
USE *RED POTION* WITH *BLUE POTION*
>>44877840
damn ho unwad dem panties already
>>44896530
>USE *RED POTION* WITH *BLUE POTION*
YOU SIP DAT LEAN, IT HELPS YOU SLEEP
>>44877652
I never realized the official name had it as 2 words. That's absolutely retarded. You'd think after they went to the lengths to know that the Japanese use -maru as a suffix for ship names, they'd also realize that it's part of the name, i.e. Kobayashimaru.
Simple this happens
>>44897267
jesus christ what did they do to that game. Is there an option to go back to the classic sprites?
