Does reading 40k/30k make you sad? I don't know why but the 40k universe makes me incredibly sad when I consider its themes. Particularly the Horus Heresy. I think it might have something to with the fact that it really hits home on the 'What could have been' aspect. The severing of ties between those who were really close gets to me. Ferrus and Fulgrim. Horus and the Emperor. Angron and his fellow slaves. Lorgar and his faith in the Emperor. Hell, these are just major examples.
Does 40k stir up any emotion in you or am I alone in this?
>>44854370
That is the point of Grimdark.
There are no true heroes if there is no unbeatable darkness.
A hero is not the one who wins against evil, a hero is the one that fight even when there is no hope.
That's what makes 40k so epic.
>>44854461
Ollanius Pius knows his shit
>>44854370
That's the point, it's a cosmic tragedy. A lot of the plot elements are pulled from other tragedies and each factions background hinges on a tragic irony; the Imperium worships an emperor who hated religion, the eldar are the wisest yet the cause of their own destruction, the orks live for war and would lose meaning if they ever won, the tyranids are the galaxies greatest threat yet they are running from something more terrible etc.
Dantioch dying in Polux's arm latest book instilled some masculine feels
>>44854370
Honestly? I didn't until after reading the first 3 HH books. Garviel Loken and the story of the legions fall is a bad time. Really makes you think just how much of a emotional impact it had on the factions involved in the heresy.
That moment whenTorgaddon is killed by Aximand in front of Loken, and the impact it has on both of them. Meanwhile Abaddon is just like 'lol he dead'. What a dick.That got to me the most.
>>44855064
Loken struggling with his feeling towards euphrati.
Not actual emotions
But...stirrings
>>44854461
>That is the point of Grimdark.
Isn't the point of Grimdark to be ridiculously "dark" and edgy because that's what its audience thinks is cool? I mean, I knew this guy who would go on and on about WWI and about how brutal it was, but it didn't depress him. He thought it was exciting as fuck, and had major war fantasies.
Of course, through more mature goggles, it's depressing as fuck. Stuff like WH40K reminds me a lot of my grandfather, who fought two pointless wars for a country that dropped him like a hot potato when he came back, only to eventually die from something he picked up during the war. He was old, but it still sucks. That's how I imagine the individual guardsman feels when he returns to his random shit planet.
>>44854635
Who? The fabricated myth used to inspire thousands of Guardsmen so they don't think twice about charging to certain death, or the ancient, immortal who has been killed time after time before?
Because you do know that the 'normal human who stood up to Horus' story is just fanon, right? You know there's nothing in the fluff which actually describes that happening?
>>44854370
It's mediocre pulp syfy at best, so no.
Have you tried reading Flowers for Algernon? THAT makes you sad.
>>44855116
>That's how I imagine the individual guardsman feels when he returns to his random shit planet.
No anon, even a blind, paraplegic guardsmen is overjoyed if he comes home and will never suffer PTSD, because he's so happy that he's one of the .001% that make it back. Most die or settle another world, never seeing their families ever again.
>>44854370
A Thousands Sons is pretty much all about getting depressed about what could have been.
Does The First Heretic include the sacking of Monarchia?
>>44855116
>Isn't the point of Grimdark to be ridiculously "dark" and edgy because that's what its audience thinks is cool?
That's grimdark done badly.
If the audience think it's cool, then you are doing it wrong.
Look at Diablo, it's a perfect example.
Diablo 2 is good grimdark.
It's depressing, it's hopeless. It's a game where even a necromancer can become a hero because everyone else is dead or corrupted.
Nobody would think Diablo 2 is cool, dark and edgy. It's not.
But it's awesome in his own way, and that's why people love it.
I'm not saying that 40k isn't full of shit sometimes; that's one of the problem of having so many writers, and expecially one of the problem of GW wanting to be appeal to younger audience.
But the core it's still there.
Gothic, depressing, unsettling. But awesome.
>>44855084
I didn't pick up on that... when does this happen? Is this a later book? I havn't read any aside from Fulgrim after book 3.
>>44855205
Been a while since I read it, but yes, I think so. IIRC it's how the book opens.
>>44855207
>Diablo II
>not the golden standard for "cool and edgy grimdark"
>>44855125
Ollanius Pius did exist. He's portrayed in Betrayal at Calth.
>>44855439
As a perpetual, yes. Not as the normal human being Guardfags imagine him as.
>>44854370
Reading BL's new HH makes me sad
>>44855458
Speaking about perpetuals and Olly.
Alivia Sureka one of the true Perpetuals was revealed to be barren. She still loved kids, though. She adopted a family of her own.
Does the novels say whether Olly's family was his biological family or not. If they are not, then it might imply that true perpetuals like him, the Emperor, and Alivia are sterile.
>>44855519
Of course Alivia is barren, that's how female reproduction works because they have a limited amount of egg cells. Since the Emperor is male, he was probably fertile until he began decomposing in the golden throne.
Speaking of the HH books...
Not interested in reading all of them, because from what I hear a lot of the fluff is just stupid. What I like most when reading the HH books is really getting to find out how a legion/primarch ticks, like really get under their skin and get to know them. Was wondering whether there are books for each legion that really give a good idea of how they were.
So far have read about
>Luna Wolves from Horus Rising (and the next two)
>White scars from Scars
>Blood angels from Fear To Tread
And will probably read A Thousand Sons next, as the clue's kind of in the title. Any recommendations for books about the other legions?
looking at the art of battles and courageous feats, reading the snippets in codex of amazing, stupid or downright silly events is amazing, even if it tells of planets or millions dead.
Reading the books makes me feel a great sense of despair. theres a short story i guess you could call it in the gaunts ghosts series where gaunt is either having fever dreams or just feeling run down and worn out. Its past halfway through the series and it really shows gaunt as a tired, broken version of his former self with others around him almost unable to live without the giant character that was gaunt.
It was tragic, even though 40k is a mans power trip, it really hit me with a feeling of futility, gaunt survived this down period in his career (if it even happened) but it didnt get any better. his career was destined for a footnote in the records and the death of those he loved slowly as his regiment was torn apart through war.
>>44855064
fuck you little horus
based tarik 4 life
>>44855622
First Heretic and Betrayer for Word Bearers and World Eaters.
Legion for Alpha Legion
Angel Exterminatus for Iron Warriors and well corrupted Emperor's Children
Battle of Calth for Ultramarines
>>44855739
Thanks anon. That gives me plenty to be getting on with.
>>44855796
No prob. There are more, those juat came into my mind. Flight of Eisenstein is chronologicaly right after the last one from the first 3, don't remember the title, and it covers Death Guard pretty well. Also, from the list, the Betrayer is cobsidered by many to the best book in the HH series.
>>44854370
Word, the first few 30k books felt so different, so full of hope then inevitably it all starts to slip away, it's worse when you know the outcome.
Seeing all that was lost is heartbreaking especially when you consider how each person or bit of knowledge of item might have made a difference later on.
Take the ultramarines for example, seeing how dogmatic they've become that hey cast out Uriel Ventris for not following the codex when their primarch would have lauded his actions.
>>44855519
personally I like the perpetuals, I fi d it interesting that all of them pretty much loathe the Emperor.
Ollanius sees him as divorced from human desires, Grammaticus sees him as a bloodthirsty warlord and Alivia just hates his arrogance and thinks space marines are an abomination.
>>44854370
No because much as though I enjoy the whole setting of both 30k and 40k, the whole thing is so badly written and absurd that it's impossible to feel anything for it other that interest and amusement. The things it deals with are too big, it's impossible to actually have a humanising element in the whole thing.
And then there's the spess marines. Love them though I do, they have no character motivation other than HONOUR. DUTY. MURDER. KILL. BROTHERLY-TOTALLY-NOT-HOMOEROTICFRIENDSHIP.
The things that really make a characters and worlds believable. Love, loss, compassion despair, conflict and horror are just lost in a boring paste.
Take that story of the Salamanders wiping out that planet where the Eldar where aiding the humans. Wiping out a population of millions becomes a boring footnote, the Salamanders are just big boring warriors fighting and winning.
A better perspective, one that shows the size, power, scale and inhumanity of the imperium would be a story written from the perspective of a family of luckless inhabitants. Imagine them running, hiding from these inhuman adversaries from the sky. Describe the charnel scale of the butchery, the corpses the ash and the knowledge that hope and hiding places are running out.
There is only one way off world, if it exists. Would they find it? who knows.
>>44856110
>Salamanders wiping out the Eldar/Human planet
>Boring
Do you understand the impact of his moral choices? He was killing the Eldar, until he realized what the Eldar meant to the native humans. At that point, he knew he'd fucked the populace up beyond saving. He ran into a moral issue that he had to act upon.
>>44854370
When reading, and attempting to write, 40k fiction i always remind myself that its the best of a bad bunch.
>Killing PDF by the millions? It HAS to be done
>1k psykers a day? It HAS to be done
The sheer brutality is what i love about the setting - everything's fucked and everyone's just winging it
>>44856166
But it is boring. It's boring because the author is writing from the perspective of a 10ft tall coal black demi-god wearing a tank. There is no way that short of a very, very good writer you could actually get inside the head of Vulkan, without being dull. Not that it matters anyway because all the Primarchs (despite the best efforts of Abnett and co.) are hugely two-dimensional.
The best 40k (and 30k) stories are from the bottom looking up. Not the top looking down. The only way to really 'feel' the size of Imperium is to look up at from a human perspective. The best parts of the Horus Heresy books are never when the Primarchs are smack talking or when the Spess marines are gaying it up. It's the interaction between the Legions and Primarchs with ordinary people like the remembrancers or similar. It helps show the reader the vast scale and inhumanity of the system they are all part of.
>>44854903
>the tyranids are the galaxies greatest threat yet they are running from something more terrible
A single speculative line in one old codex doesn't make this true. All signs point to the tyranids having devoured all the biomass in a previous galaxy and are coming to ours because there's nothing left.
>>44857538
Haven't read that many HH books, but it seems a lot of them follow a legionary for a lot of the time, which enables them to get that "looking up" perspective on the primarchs and lord-commanders of the legions.
Admittedly these legionaries tend to be around the captain level rather than plain footsoldiers, but that's probably so the buggers can actually hear some of the higher-level stuff going on. Your average grunt won't end up on the bridge of the flagship for example so the author would be limited in what they'd realistically see. A captain's kind of a nice inbetween.
>>44857654
Following Kharn in Betrayer was great.
>>44854370
I stopped reading new 40k material in 3rd edition, when it was all still a big grimdark joke.
>>44857538
nah, this is boring as fuck.
There are a few story arcs that were pretty well done and made me feel sad. At the top of my head
>the relationship between Argel Tal and Kharnmade worse by Argel Tal dying completely unexpectedly and Kharn failing to avenge him
>the fall of Angron and the World Eaters as a whole
>like 90% of Gaunts Ghosts
>Uzasbeing killed like a bitch and remembered as a psycho traitor
But what gets me the worst is the short descriptions of Imperial soldiers dying heroically, sacrificing themselves so that the Imperium can endure. And many times doing so without anyone remembering them. Abnett and Zou know how to write IG in this regard and that's why I love their books. But pretty much every 40k books has at least one such character and even if it's just a footnote, it leaves a mark on me.
>>44854370
>How it feels reading Ciaphas Cain
>>44854370
40k piles the grimdark on so hard that it's difficult to get emotionally invested enough to actually feel affected. The fact that the storyline is completely stagnant with no appreciable arc to speak of does not help matters.
30k, however, is tragedy. It's GOOD tragedy, epic in the true and not overused sense of the word; like ancient myths about humanity's hubris. We have so many stories of ruin and sorrow on a mythic scale, and 30k embraces that scale to deliver that kind of story.
This is part of why I've found the Horus Heresy book series so very satisfying to read, even if not every novel holds up. It's a piece of art that does a good job of capturing the downfall of humanity as a result of striving too hard to meet ideals.
>>44859986
>And many times doing so without anyone remembering them
The Emperor always remembers
>>44854370
Well, much of the stories (particularly around the primarchs) are straight up copied from history or myth so yeah it's pretty sad.
Too bad BL writers can't write for shit
>>44855205
Regarding the Thousand Sons, yes, all is dust. That is their curse. They studied and built and sought to become transcendent. They thought they could redefine reality. They stood at the cusp of a breakthrough, only to discover the game was rigged and the gods they denied the existence of would have the last laugh.
>>44855622
Prospero Burns for the Wolves, with other good 6th Legion material in Scars and Wolf King.
>>44860076
>mfw
That's why I firmly believe that the Emperor does indeed protect. That the ending to Imperial Glory is the truth, not some hallucinations. And that everything else is just Chaos lies. Otherwise stuff like
>Nineteenth platoon were about five hundred meters from Old Hive's north entrance when they saw the gates close.
>Skerral stopped in his tracks, and pulled the men up. Half his unit were dead. He ejected a cell from his lasrifle and slammed in a new one.
>"Come on," he said, turning back to face down the slope at the waves of assault sweeping in. "Let's see how many we can kill."
>The remnants of nineteenth lasted seventeen minutes from the time the gates closed. They accounted for one hundred and eighty-nine enemy casualties. No one witnessed their heroism.
would be all just pointless sacrifices in the grand scheme of 40k.
>>44854461
You're trying to understand. I told you your brother had been killed.
Yet, here he stands in the very shadow of the man you came here to destroy.
You came here to avenge his death. You came here to save mankind. You see now, you cannot do both.
Tell me now. Is there a man among you here?
Is there no one who will stand up and try to fight?
Tell me Man, is there not one in all your ranks? Is there not one who values courage over life?
They looked to me once. Now they turn to you. Do you understand now?
Do you see that the truth is they don't want to change this?
They don't want a hero. They just want a martyr, a statue to raise.
I've given everything I can. There are no heroes left in man.
So it begins!
No matter which one of us lives, the ground we're standing on will crack and blow away.
And you will fight. But when you fight, you'll fight alone. And in the end you'll see there was no other way.
> the stand: the protomen: act I
This is the song I imagine playing every time I hear about the Horus Heresy.
>>44857538
Wraight does a good job with Russ in Wolf King. There are not many really good looks through a Primarch's eyes in the series, but I think that is one.
>>44855207
>>44855360
Don't forget about Blizz's response to those desaturated "Diablo 2 style" screenshot edits of D3. People remembered it too much for being cool/edgy in the wrong way.
My thoughts are that Grimdark works best when there is that faint light of hope and peace in an otherwise crapsack reality. Obviously the joke portions of Diablo should be considered as such, but there's signs of "life wasn't so bad before one of the prime evils walked through here." The same goes for 40k, and some of the worlds in Eisenhorn. Life CAN be good, if you're on the right planet with the right atmosphere and far enough away from any frontlines, but even then that doesn't prevent bad shit from forming in your now over-comfortable ruling class.
>>44860338
Honestly, Diablo 1 had the grimmest style. Probably because of the music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cH8ZwL3A7Q
>>44860285
https://youtu.be/GnkbJ-H4r5k
>>44857702
He's a hell of a guy, that Kharn!
>>44857538
Look, before you can even attempt to write about the primarchs you would have to do your research a bit. Read the existing stories, find out who they were based on and so on. BL writers put in no such effort.
>>44860407
It was the setting, mostly.
D2 operated at a higher power level, and had the whole globe-trotting feel. In D1 you were stuck in that miserable little town until you went into the basement and killed all the daemons.also fuck D3, seriously
>>44854370
>no one mentions 15 hours or trooper merrt.
I cried buckets for both of them.
the end for 15 hours hits you hard though
>>44854370
The last few Gaunt's Ghosts novels made me sad; mostly because Abnett killed off a lot of long-standing characters who I'd grown attached to throughout the series
>>44860830
felt bad for dalin's adopted daddy.
>>44855152
>reading a book about stupid science bitches who couldn't make Algernon more smarter
DROPPED
>>44861260
ALGERNON /DID/ MORE SMARTER GOOD. AND THEN HE DIEDED.
>>44860806
15 Hours was the first 40k book I read. I thought it was fantastic
>>44861546
early/mid 2000s was the golden age of Black Library.
Back when they did fun, insignificant stories.
>>44861546
it sums up the guardsman perfectly.
not over the top and flashy, but effective in cover.
made me roll armor in Ultimate apocalypse and babysit my infantry squads
>>44861591
There are still plenty of these. No one reads them because they're digital only.
I just finished reading Predator, Prey and a good portion of the book is from the perspective of the little guys.
>>44861735
whats the story?
also Iron harvest is grimdark in a good way.
>>44854945
masculine feels? like gay boners?
>>44861691
I enjoyed the digital Plagues of Orath trilogy.
I'm 99% sure the ecclesiarchy priest in Armour of Faith is the Emperor.Especially because he disappears into thin air at the end after giving the Chaplain the pep talk he needs to save the planet.He even tells the Chaplain that what was required was pure faith to defeat the daemons, but not necessarily pure faith in the Emperor, pure faith in one's self would suffice.
>>44854370
Aha i sometimes think about how different things could have been if the horus heresy hadn't happened, or someone other than fulgrim had done diplomacy with the Eldar, how much brighter the setting could have been, and it does kinda make me sad
>>44861899
Aha i sometimes think about how different things could have been if the horus heresy hadn't happened, or someone had ended the series short before it turned into endless padding of shit fluff, how much brighter the setting could have been, and it does kinda make me sad
>>44861779
It's book 2 of the Beast Arises series and involves the impact of an enormous ork Waagh! making its way across segmentum solar, with perspectives from hive worlds, forge worlds, agri worlds, and plenty more. As well as what the High Lords of Terra and astartes are doing about it.
>>44862120
oh, right, hab block sized ork right?
>>44862167
Don't believe everything you read on the internet. He's big. He's almost certainly as big as the Ork that fought the Emperor. But he's not godzilla.
>>44862196
>no ork who is a force of nature
what a shame
>>44862167
>>44862259
He's about the size of a Knight, so around 30 feet. A block in Manhattan is 660 feet. So yeah...
>>44862292
oh well.
thats a shame.
>>44861899
Sometimes I think about how different things could have been if the Horus Heresy had not happened and Humanity had succeeded in purging all disgusting xenos from the universe under the guidance of the Immortal Emperor.
>>44862120
>what the High Lords of Terra are doing about it
Can you go into details? This interests me a lot.
>>44854370
Sad because of how shitty the writing is, maybe.
since everyone is discussing books and lore snippets, is there any book that has humans winning against the dark eldar. Iron harvest was kinda depressing because of the qt inquisitor
>>44862426
this. I have trouble believing anyone could be seriously emotionally affected by writing this mediocre.
>>44862196
But now I want a Squigzilla.
Or Squigmera, friend to all snotlings.
>>44862456
well I read warhams books after reading blizzard books.
so a coherent story was pretty good
>>44855162
There was an Eisenhorn short story (or maybe Ravenor, I don't remember), about a bunch of retired guardsmen bugging out and going full First Blood
>>44862413
I won't spoil too much, other then to say that the first two books of the series give me detail on the High Lords of Terra (circa M32) than all of prior 40k-lore combined, and that Drakan Vangorich is the main viewpoint character.
>>44862449
Brothers of the Snakehas a single Iron Snake slaughtering DEldar with no fucks given
Blood Gorgonshas a single Blood Gorgon slaughtering DEldar then dragging one along as a prisoner
Iron Guardhas Mordians fighting against DEldar in some hive city
There is probably more
>>44854370
>Does 40k stir up any emotion in you or am I alone in this?
I only feel this in a meta-way. When I got into Fall From Heaven, the Civ Mod, it struck me that THIS is what 40k lore could have been if it was centralized under one author who was a competent worldbuilder.
Seeing what exists now makes me sad, very much because it could have been so much better written.
>>44855162
>>44862637
Missing in Action, in the Eisenhorn Omnibus.
>>44862919
Great story.
>>44862864
give more*
>>44862864
Go ahead and spoil it if you can, just use spoiler tag for other people's sake. I won't be able to read the books in a long time due workload from school.
>>44862890
>guardsmen are useless
I hate when this happens.
I just want eldar jetbikes being torn apart by flak
>>44855519
In the short story in Mark of calth he hears his baby son's crying and that was in the Viking era when he would have been alive for 10k years I think
Of course later on he might have become sterile but you get the feeling he heals and regenerates
>>44860830
I don't like how he made that alcoholic who doc got gaunt to spare go back to big bad - I mean gaunt said he would kill the fucker if he drank again and yet Abnett is saying he's gone back to his old ways
>>44863383
he was killed for regimental politics and thats all really, he just happened to know too much.
>>44855116
Guardsmen never come back, anon. It is far better to die for the emperor than return home knowing you could have and should have been slain like your comrades.
>>44855739
Legion is probably my favorite HH book. The masters of dicking people over, dicking people over on a galactic scale
>‘Lupercal!’ Loken yelled, coming to the Warmaster’s right side, and swinging his sword double-handed. Torgaddon covered the left, striking down a trio of gleves, then using a lance taken from one of them to smite the pack that followed. Interex soldiers, some screaming, were forced back down the steps, or toppled over the stone railing of the street to plunge onto the tier beneath.
>Of all the battles Loken had fought at his commander’s side, that was the fiercest, the saddest, the most vicious. Teeth bared in the firelight, swinging his blade at the foe on all sides, Horus seemed more noble than Loken had ever known. He would remember that moment, years later, when fate had played its cruel trick and sense had turned upside down. He would remember Horus, Warmaster, in that narrow firelit street, defining the honour and unyielding courage of the Imperium of Man.
>There should have been frescoes painted, poems written, symphonies composed, all to celebrate that instant when Horus made his most absolute statement of devotion to the Throne.
>And to his father.
>There would be none. The hateful future swallowed up such possibilities, swallowed the memories too, until the very fact of that nobility became impossible to believe.
>The enemy warriors, and they were enemy warriors now, choked the street, driving the Warmaster and his few remaining bodyguards into a tight ring. A last stand. It was oddly as he had imagined it, that night in the garden, making his oath. Some great, last stand against an unknown foe, fighting at Horus’s side.
>He was covered in blood, his suit gouged and dented in a hundred places. He did not falter. Through the smoke above, Loken glimpsed a moon, a small moon glowing in the corner of the alien sky.
>Appropriately, it was reflected in the glimmering mirror of ocean out in the bay.
>‘Lupercal!’ screamed Loken.
>>44856110
>homoerotic
i wish nu-males would stop sexualizing masculinity and male-bonding and implying you have to be homosexual to be masculine, that's kind of the opposite of what homosexuals usually are - feminine
going by this standard virtually all professional armies or men who've gone through combat together are homo-erotic
>>44863844
Oh god, the feels. They hurt.
>>44854370
No. To me the setting is hyperbolic black humor with a tiny few nuggets of feels. Hell, Rick Priestly described the original fluff of the Horus Heresy as a parody of Paradise Lost. I think a lot of people are also not aware of 40k's 2000AD roots which was very heavy on the irony and gallow humour.
But what really is important is that 40k looks badass and dark. Whatever you personally get out of it doesn't invalidate what other people get out of it because it's a setting made to entertain.
>>44855152
Kill yourselfjerkface.
Some of that pulp sci-fi storytelling is pretty good.
>>44863814
I was getting through the HH series at a pretty good pace until I got to Legion. Still haven't finished it.Though to be honest, I only started reading the HH series because I hate a ton of the plot elements in it, and reading it made me feel justified in hating them, but thanks to Legion, I never really got to the parts I wanted to hate.
>>44863914
Homosexuals acting feminine is just an alternate lifestyle thing and a way to meet other homosexuals. There are plenty of homos that don't act like the stereotype and some of them are manly as fuck.
>>44854370
No, because Orks.
>>44864572
stereotypes generally tend to be true, and from a anecdotal experience every single homosexual i have met has been feminine, submissive and woman-ly
there are a few tops that are masculine - because they view the bottoms/versatiles they fuck as women, yes
>>44864366
How would the HH series go if Rick was writing it instead Abnett and company?
>>44863914
Look, there is masculinity and then there is a spaceship filled with nothing but sweaty angry men stuck at mental age of a teenager.
>>44855207
>>44855360
>>44860338
>>44860407
>>44860545
I seem to recall that there were a bunch of joke moments in Diablo like the monsters stealing the tavern sign because they thought that owning an image of the sun would give them awesome powers, a bunch of silly references, the cow king level and some straight up silly looking player skills.
Whatever makes Diablo grimdark is really in the presentation.
>>44864733
your sexualization - all you
are you homosexual?
>>44864690
Good to hear you speaking from experience.
>>44864699
Better, but if it's current GW still, then you'd still have an HH being rung and drawn out for every dime it's worth and the inevitable plummet of quality and increase of idiotic ideas that would result.
>>44864572
Source for any of this?
>>44864813
Nope, going by the novel Space Marine by Ian Watson. Liked the part where they chase each other around while naked the best.
No, really, read the book and meditate on it or whatever.
Also, hetero, you curious dawg.
>>44864869
Darn.
>>44864690
That's the same thing as saying that because you got a black friend and because of that you understand all black people across the planet.
How do you know that all people you meet are straight? They could just not make a big deal about who they like to fuck just like how you might not make a huge deal about what food you like to eat.
>>44864896
Human beings progressing beyond puberty, high school and college.
>>44864896
Freddie Mercury.
>>44854370
I feel the same.
I love Chaos, but reading about Horus Heresy brought me nothing but sadness.
I didn't want them to fall.
>>44864896
Robert Halford.
>>44864896Your dad.
>>44864869
So where is this plummet in quality? Because Meduson was awesome, Wolf King was awesome, Legacies of Betrayal was awesome, Pharos was awesome, Deathfire was Nick Kyme so it's always going to suck regardless.
>>44864869
Yeah, the corporate part of GW will basically turn HH into a money jizz rag no matter what.
>>44865211
If I had to take a guess, by plummet in quality they probably refer to the presence of retarded ideas (take for example, the Imperium Secgundus). And the longer the series goes on, the longer those ideas will stick around, and the more likely even more unfavorable ideas will occur.
>>44865763
If you take Age of Sigmar into consideration GW is also at this point not above screwing up their entire setting right off the bat,
>>44865763
I prefer Imperium Secundus and the idea of every chapter having some secrets. Not to mention it's a better answer to, "What were the Ultramarines doing for the entirety of the Heresy?" Other than "Nothing."
>>44859986
castellan vauban in storm of iron was a bad motherfucker
charges honsou and manages to cut his arm off at the elbow before getting a sword through the chest
he's actually one of my favorite because he's not just some shithead who sits at a desk going "send in the next wave", he led from the front like a badass
hawke and leonid were also fucking sweet in that
>>44863914
Homosexuals are the ultimate men - so manly they don't need women.
>>44866248
kinda awesome
>>44865925
I really don't think that every chapter needs a shameful secret. Like Space Wolves know that Prospero was a fuckup and that they were had by Horus, but there is no reason for them to hide it.
>>44866248
True that. Estrogen makes you a pussy.
>>44866281
The chapter doesn't have to be ashamed of it. Just something that the greater Imperium would raise an eyebrow about.
>>44866350
Ultramarines lords over half the Space Marines in the Imperium with half of the successor chapters being founded from them and their primarch is technically not dead yet. So if Rowboat Girlyman ever returns he might just decide to take over all of the Imperium.
The Ultramarines dark secret is that they are too good to be true.
Pretty much anything involving a dreadnought dying is guarenteed to be sad.
>tfw Death Guard dread had cracked his sarcophagus during the Istvaan bombing
>>44866421
>lords over half the Space Marines in the Imperium with half of the successor chapters
This isn't a thing and you fucking know it. The whole point of the Dark Angels is they're the only chapter with direct control of their successors. Other chapters remain autonomous.
>>44866488
All chapters also follow their primarch.
>>44855116
Grimdark has a number of roles or appeals for people. Some enjoy the voyeuristic appeal of witnessing a world a thousand times worse and more sorrowful than one's own contemporary times - the same way they postulate an appeal of the Coliseum was to let a pleb see some poor sod worse off than he or she. Some whose lives are more comfortable and relaxing existence like the fantasy of grimdark for the thrill of escapism from the mundane and the ho-hum boring.
I tend to like more classical tragedy to grimdark for the sake of grimdark.
>>44866421
it would me a shyamalanesque twistI love it
>>44855125
Literal heresy.
He was always meant to be human. It's what made his death even more tragic than Sanguiness. A normal human would throw himself in between two Gods to protect the one he loves.
Then faggots like you thought "hey guize Terminators are kewl" then a bigger faggot said "hey guize battle barge warp spawn make his a kewl Custodian".
>>44861839
heavily implied
>>44866913
And if that's what the Ecclesiarchy wants to push, that's fine and works for the millions who believe it. The truth of the matter isn't important.
>>44865609
In fairness, of all the games companies I supported with my allowance money in junior high, and that was thirty fucking years ago, GW is the only one left. Their corporate structure has to be doing something right.
TSR has been bought out. FASA is gone, and the Battletech IP has changed hands more than the nympho who showed up to prom. Steve Jackson Games is fragmented beyond recall.
So as much as I hate those shekel-grabbing bitches from Nottingham and wish they still had some of their original staff still at the helm, I have to respect them for still being in business.
>>44854370
>'what could have been' aspect
Brother, I feel this shit every day. I don't need a game to push it
>>44860285
We just need to keep the machine running a little while longer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpSHC1dqX1o
>>44867225
>the nympho who showed upto prom
muh feels.
>>44867482
Old Army expression, as in "We have one headspace and timing gauge for the fifty cals, so it's getting passed around like the one nympho who showed up to the senior prom."
>>44867691
wait, this sounds something more suited to bombers.
>tfw Perturabo's only friend was Magnus
>Magnus gets laid low
Forever alone :,(
>>44868604
Why is it that the only primarchs that hated Magnus were the shit ones.
>>44867748
Motorized cav squadron.
>>44855665
>even though 40k is a mans power trip.
Whut?
>>44868604
2 fucking weirdos
>>44868793
all the shit ones liked Magnus you fag
>>44869248
oh, nice.
mechanized humor
>>44866281
The space wolves secret is the wulfen
>>44854945
Thanks for making me remember you ass.
>>44860076
This is why I'm not a chaos fag, fuck them to hell.
>>44860234
The fluff outright states that human souls dissolve into the Warp after death.
There is no heaven or afterlife for humans.
>>44871226
it's okay heretic, you can still admit your foolishness and absolve your sins in death
I honestly can't take anything featuring Space Marines serious, especially the Horus Heresy. I tried to get into the novels but none of the characters are likeable.
>>44866421
>if Rowboat Girlyman ever returns he might just decide to take over all of the Imperium
Robute's entire post-heresy purpose, the entire reason for making the chapters and the codex the standard was to decentralize the legions and keep one man from holding too much power. If he came back, not too much would change organizationally. That's the beauty of the whole ultramarine successor thing. They all roughly follow the codex.
See, if any OTHER primarch showed up, things might go awry as they try and fix shit they don't understand. But Guilliman? No worries.
Never read any 40k stuff.
What should I read for maximum sad?
>>44871378
fifteen hours
it's a good book
>>44871378
Fire Caste
Dead Men Walking
>>44871226
Literal phantoms of human heroes and martyrs rise from death to defend the imperium against chaos.
>>44871378
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Gav_and_Bob
>>44871406
A mysterious warp phenomenon that might be connected to the Firetide.
The fluff is clear on that matter. Human souls cannot maintain their egos and consciousness in the Warp.
>>44871454
>The fluff is clear on that matter
>except when it is a mystery
>>44871466
So we have lore that makes human souls either dissolving into the warp or devoured by daemons the general rule.
There is a one time event on single planet that mysteriously happened and then never happened again. Lets discard all established fluff just because of it!
>>44871510
>established fluff
>except when it isn't
>>44869697
>Khan
>shit
>>44871540
Except it is.
The ghost thing might be something connected to the planet or the people on the planet. I mean the Eldar psykers have been known to make ghostly constructs to fight for them. Was it possible that the people of that world desire to saved created the warp phenomenon that had ghostly figures pop up? Yes, it's more likely that the people's imagination and desire to be saved imprinted into warp and spawned the ghosts.
This would explain why it just happened on one planet and would fit into the lore better.
>>44871510
>>44871454
>>44871631
MFW all this heretics
>>44871411
Well now im sad...
>>44871631
>taking your own personal interpretation of a mysterious scenario as canonical fact
head canon is not relevant
looks like you're not only a heretic, but also wrong
>>44871366
The Imperium is in a much worse state than when he clicked out that he might have to reconisder.
>>44871714
Nah, he's the spiritual liege. Everything'll work out alright.
>>44871691
I am not. Though, my headcanon fits the lore better than your headcanon.
Enjoy being daemon food.
>>44871817
>I am not
>I am literally just making up falsities because I cannot back up my claims
in the old country we call that "being wrong"
>>44871850
I said I am not taking my personal interpretation as the true canon.
Both of us have headcanon of what caused the event. Mine fits into the lore better. Yours doesn't, It's simple as that. I guess that makes me more correct by default.
>>44871885
>I am not taking my personal interpretation as the true canon.
>The fluff is clear on that matter. Human souls cannot maintain their egos and consciousness in the Warp.
>clear
>when it isn't
So is feelfags in Black Library the reason the Horus Heresy turned into an overly sentimental soap opera with husbandos?
>>44871901
Are you an idiot? That's the lore itself.
Unless you have clear lore explanation on why these ghostly figured appeared. A line that says these guys were human souls that somehow survived the dissolution of the Warp, then you have no case.
>>44871953
>That's the lore itself.
That is your own fabrication.
>>44871975
Nope, it's a statement from the Eldar codexes
It explains that human souls are too weak to maintain their egos and conscious in the warp while the Eldar are strong enough to endure there which makes them prey for daemons and Slaanesh.
Humans souls dissolves into the greater warp, Eldar souls linger.
>>44871993
Clearly the Eldar are infallible in their observations on the universe despite evidence to the contrary.
>>44871993
Not the guy you're arguing with, but human psychers can maintain their soul innthe Warp if they can avoid being devoured by daemons or other predators ontyr Warp.
>>44872011
Nope, that always have been the lore.
And there is no evidence to the contrary unless you point me where does it say that these ghosts are souls of humans that survived destruction in the warp rather than Warp constructs created by the minds of frightened peasants.
>>44872013
I am not talking about human psykers. I am talking about normal humans whose souls are said to be dim candles.
>>44872036
>there is no evidence to the contrary
>>44872036
Oh yeah, human souls just disolves into Warp mush. If any old heroes manifest they are most likely a manifestation of peoples ideas and emotions rather than the actual individual.
>>44872042
Like I said, in the face of established fluff you have no case.
One off mysterious event with no explanation for it does not trump established fluff.
Now if you want to win this argument start digging for proofs.
>>44872061
Exactly.
That's what I am saying.
>>44872077
>established fluff
>except when it isn't
Can you point me to the exact quote saying those ghostly heroes are in fact just congealed lumps of warp emotion instead of actual ghosts? Otherwise you have no argument.
>>44872095
No, you have no argument.
We have established fluff from the Eldar codexes that tell us the fate of human souls. Instead of interpreting the event in accordance of what we know happens to human souls in the Warp, You put forth a claim these ghosts are individual spirits of dead humans that lorebreakingly survived the dissolution of the Warp.
Please provide evidence for your claim.
>>44854370
>Does reading 40k/30k make you sad?
Yes, it makes you sad individual because you're spending time reading drivel written by shoddy mercenary writers of the calibre that write forgotten realms and starwars EU novels, when there's endless better uses of your time.
Work on your painting skills, make more terrain, collect older edition rulebooks for fun, read a book that wasn't made purely to try to cash in on people who are dumb enough to buy glue and hobby tools at 500% markup just because it says GW on them.
If you want to dork out, read Milton's Paradise Lost that the entire Horus Heresy mythos was based on/parodying.
Read the old 2000AD comics that inspired rogue trader and the early imperium. Read historical novels and get inspiration for scenarios to play or characters for your army.
But please, don't just sit there shoveling black library shit onto your brain just so you can get into slapfights with other nerds about who has the strongest primarch daddy.
>>44872095
Can you state a sorce where they say that they are real ghosts?
>>44872129
Even if humans didn't turn into Warp mush they would just get eaten by daemons or something else. The guys has no case.
>>44872129
>We have established fluff
>except contradictory fluff has been released since
and previously, if we're going there.
Fun fact: outside of that one quote in the eldar codex, human souls have always been fair game. It's why Jaq Draco survived his death.
So, can you provide some actual evidence that supports your not-so-established statment?
>>44872162
Nope, there is no fluff contradicting that fluff. It's lore that has been repeated across the editions
So I again I repeat please provide some clear evidence for your claim that without a doubt would support your case, You can't, can you?
>>44872162
Draco is a psycher. Their souls don't disolve like regular humans.
>>44872193
>At twelve he developed singular psychic abilities of extraordinary purity
Yeah, looked him up. He was a psyker.
Damn that (>>44872162) anon is dishonest.
>>44872187
>there is no fluff contradicting that fluff
I just gave you some, bro. A human bean who, after their supposed death, lingered as a ghost despite the fact that you say it is not possible.
Now if you want some more? I can do that. The Legion of the Damned are an entire army of human souls who miraculously survived their contact with the warp and appear as ghosts in times of need.
There's also the aformentioned ghostly heroes of the imperium showing up.
Now please provide some support to your unsubstantiated claims that no human soul can ever linger beyond death. Because it's quite clear to me that the Eldar were blowing their own farts on this one.
>>44872193
>>44872211
So the Eldar codex was wrong, is what you're saying?
>>44872221
>I just gave you some, bro. A human bean who, after their supposed death, lingered as a ghost despite the fact that you say it is not possible.
If you mean Jaq, then he is a psyker. Like the Eldar they survive after death while regular humand don't.
> The Legion of the Damned are an entire army of human souls who miraculously survived their contact with the warp and appear as ghosts in times of need.
You idiot.
You haven't read the Legion of the Damned lore have you? It was a Nurglite disaese that transmuted them to the state they are in now. They are pretty much alive but incorporeal.
I am going to post their lore in a moment.
>There's also the aformentioned ghostly heroes of the imperium showing up.
Does not proof your case.
You have constantly failed to provide anything.
>>44872231
How is that any weirder than all of the contradictory fluff being wrong? I mean, someone is wrong, so why is it just impossible that it's random eldar guy? I mean, the 40K universe is a team effort. A lot of people are adding stuff to the mix, some of it is literally shit, why latch on to one specific snippet written by one person and say "Nuh-uh, this is the only one that counts!"?
Eldar underestimating humans is perfectly in line with the canon.
>>44872231
The Eldar codex was referring to normal humans, not psykers.
>>44872249
>Human souls cannot maintain their egos and consciousness in the Warp.
>yes they can
>n-no that doesn't count
>>44872254
It's not weird, and quite normal for the fluff to contradict itself. This anon is just trying to strictly codify everything about the warp, which is honestly quite stupid.
>>44872231
No, Eldar souls doesn't disolve into Warp mush because they are basically all psychers to some degree, even Dark Eldars. It's also why they walk around with soul stones so Slaanesh doesn't get to torment their woul for eternity. Being a psycher back before the Warp went nuts meant that you could reincarnate without problems because your soul didn't disolve, so it was like having eternal life. Now that Chaos rules the Warp you're facing eternal hell instead. Being turned into Warp mush is a small mercy.
>>44872132
>Work on your painting skills
Pssh, do you paint your minis like some filthy casual? For fun? Get out.
>>44872272
Indeed, you are an idiot.
When I said human souls, I meant ordinary human souls that are too weak to survive in the Warp. Psykers and Eldar souls are strong enough to survive which is why they are at risk of being eaten by daemons after death.
Posting Legion of the Damned lore.
>>44872302
>>44872312
>>44872302
>When I said human souls, I meant human souls except the ones that would turn my argument on its head
For all we know, those ghosts were all psykers, bro. It is entirely possible now that you've admitted human ghosts can exist.
>>44872320
and I should mention, more than a thousand psykers are given to the Emperor's embrace every day.
Those guys are all technically imperial martyrs and heroes who would totally be down for fucking up the powers of chaos as badass spirits.
>>44872320
That would make sense except for the fact that psykers get devoured by daemons in the Warp because their souls shine so brightly that all warp predators will swarm them
>>44872336
You do know that the Emperor devours the souls of these psykers to sustain himself?
>>44872350
Maybe he gave up some of his reserves to create a christmas miracle.
>>44872336
Their souls are largly undone due to the Astronomicon and the Emperor being the houseplant in need of water that he is. The Golden Throne burns all those sacrifices out.
>>44872359
Read the "Golden Throne Hungers" in the main rulebook timeline section.
The Emperor is greedily devouring their souls and his hunger increases each year. The Blackships are struggling to keep him fed.
>>44872369
Largely, yes. But we do know he later inexplicably started requiring more of them.
Maybe he puked a bunch up to sort that shit out and is now trying to binge eat back to health.
>>44872378
He needed more psychers because he is fading faster than before and the Golden Throne is slowly breaking down because the AdMech doesn't understand how it works and has to even ask the Dark Eldar for help.
>>44872393
Possibly he's fading faster than before because he has to keep injecting spirit juice into individuals and puke up ghostly saviors everywhere to stop chaos invasions. Or possibly he's fading because someone forgot to hit powersave.
I'm just happy we've established that yes, humans can have their ghosts come back to save them from evil despite what the eldar think
>>44855116
Every single person in the 40k universe is everything but a person. They are tools used by the ideologies that they hold. The weak perish. The strong survive.
>>44872425
>I'm just happy we've established that yes, humans can have their ghosts come back to save them from evil despite what the eldar think
You did not.
Ordinary Human souls dissolve. Psykers are devoured.
You better think up a better explanation.
>>44872441
>Ordinary Human souls dissolve. Psykers are devoured.
Mr. Draco wasn't. Clearly this isn't an established fact.
>>44872454
How long did he linger in the Warp and what were the exact details of his death?
>>44872425
He is fading faster because the Golden Throne has become more taxing over the millennias, he has to fend off Chaos that has grown a lot stronger and his dead body hasn't been getting any better over the years.
One of the main fundaments of the Emperor in 40k is hat he is a dead body and possibly just a temporary solution for humanity. The devs were toying with the ideas in the early days that the Emperor doesn't even actually do anything and people just feed him souls for nothing.
>>44872483
Read the series and find out. It's one of the more enjoyable sets of books in the black library.
>>44872505
>He is fading faster because
That's the thing, there's no one defined "because" to this. It could be literally anything.
>>44872454
It seems that you haven't read the book. Draco died inside the Webway without any predators or daemons there to devour him. Should he wander in a bad direction he is probably doomed.
>>44872515
You read it. So you tell me.
Where did he die? How did he die? How long did he stay in the Warp? All of these are pretty important for your argument.
>>44872526
He also technically became one with the webway.
>without any predators or daemons there
Webway's full that stuff, actually. Even eldar dying in the webway have to worry about slaanesh.
>>44872526
He died in the Webway?! So it all makes sense now.
The Webway is naturally protected from the Warp and its daemons. No wonder his soul lingered.
>>44872515
>recomending Inquisitor Wars
Sure, the first two books are readable, but the last one is just all around shitty.
>>44872561
It's worth reading just because of how strange it is.
Though I will admit, Space Marine was better.
>>44872540
He died in a safe spot. Who knows what happened with him after that?
>>44872571
he stalked and mind-impregnated(I think?) his waifu as a crazy jedi force ghost
>>44872540
>Webway's full that stuff, actually.
Only in spars that are breached by daemons. Clearly, he wasn't in on such spars.
He is a human psyker so his soul isn't going to be automatically drawn to Slaanesh to be devoured. A daemon has to find it and eat it. Daemons cannot do that if his soul is in Webway.
>>44872586
>Clearly, he wasn't in on such spars.
actually he was right in the presence of a daemon
it relates to why he was killed
suffer through the book, yo
>>44872570
I would say it's worth reading if you have any interest in the early 40k material that came to shape the setting. Squats and Ordo Hydra doesn't seem to be mentioned at all these days.
>>44872601
I don't think the squats played a huge role in it, beyond him having one in his retinue, though?
Man it's been years since I read them books.
>>44854370
It makes me sad because that's where I think humanity is headed. Only without gods and aliens. We're gonna spread out and oppress the shit out of each other until we finally go extinct.
>>44872597
The daemon just seems to disappear because reasons.
>>44872618
He was in all the books and goes through a bunch of character development, though.
>>44872597
>>44872627
Ha...Boy each time he brings something from that book it turns out to go against his argument
>>44872637
I guess. He was pretty fun.
>>44872627
Yeah, that's Chaos Child for you.
>>44872645
Please refrain from further comment until you've actually read the book.
>>44872663
Please post what book, chapter, and page.
because, anon ,each time you bring something up, another anon points at something you omitted.
>>44872645
It's because the third book is clearly the author being in a rush to finish the story so that he can start writing the book he actually cares about. It just throws out ideas all over the place halfway through and doesn't resolve anything to be as open ended as possible.
>>44872675
That nothing is explained because the book's a nightmare?
yeah we covered that a while ago
>>44872697
I think he is just being a dick because he can't make a solid argument about why anyone should accept his ideas. The afterlife in 40k is either a nightmare or oblivion for most humans.
Anyone that becomes some kind of good guy ghost is most likely some kind of Warp being that is similar to a daemon and is sustained by peoples collective idea of this figure.
>>44872775
I think you're talking about me. And I'm being a dick because one guy's trying to claim there's coherent and consistent rules about how the warp and afterlife work.
The mere existence of Inquisition War disproves that.
>>44872797
No, there is established fluff and there is nothing you provided that disproved that fluff.
What anon said in this post (>>44872775) is truefax.
>>44871226
>listening to Eldar and Chaos propaganda
>mfw
>>44872319
>>44872312
>>44872302
All retconnned to just in universe myths
>>44872441
Legion of the Damned. The ending to Imperial Glory. Saint Sabbat. And probably more, I can't remember more examples.
>>44872806
>No, there is established fluff
It's "established" in one passage, and you've been adding several asterisks to that supposedly established fact in this very thread to cover your ass.
>>44872823
>All retconnned to just in universe myths
Nope, they are not.
The Legion of the Damned books in BL and Index Chaotica : Nurgle's Garden confirms what is written in those pages.
>Legion of the Damned.
They are still living but affected by a Nurglite plague.
>The ending to Imperial Glory
Hallucination most likely.
>Saint Sabbat.
I amnot familiar with his/her fluff.
>>44872825
Bullshit, it's lore that always been true in the setting and have been carried over across the editions.
You have not even given a single piece of evidence against it. Each time you cite something it's either wrong or you just being dishonest about it.
>>44872850
>it's lore that always been true
>because I'm going to ignore everything that contradicts it
Yeah cool, dude.
>>44872850
>Seldom has the manse itself been breached successfully and have the intruders escaped with their lives. One incursion is said to have involved a squad of Fire Hawks Space Marines, a Chapter long since declared lost in the mortal realm. While Nurgle was preoccupied drowning a Lord of Change in his cauldron, the Space Marines arrived engulfed in an inferno of flame and bolter fire to reclaim their fallen captain, whom Nurgle’s minions had once overtaken all-too easily from Khorne’s Wrathgate. The Lord of Decay has his suspicions about the source of this event, laying blame at the feet of the Blood God for the foul deed, for while the Fire Hawks brought their inferno, several blood relics and skull-seeds also vanished from the garden.
--------------------
>Ten Space Marines of the Fire Hawks Chapter slip through the ethereal void and enter the realms of Nurgle to free Captain Tirek, who is held captive within Nurgle’s manse. The Fire Hawks are enveloped in a spiritual fire, a cleansing inferno of their wrath made manifest. They fight their way through the thick, ever changing gloom and assault his dwelling, burning back the drips of ichor and clouds of spores. Fierce fighting rages throughout his oubliette, their weapons furiously dealing with diseased creatures. Their cleansing flame purges disease from the very air around them. The Fire Hawks’ incandescent attack results in the deaths of hundreds of the Nurgle’s subordinates. Having lost only two battle brothers in the melee, the Fire Hawks finally leave with Tirek. However, little do they realise that Nurgle’s Rot has taken root beneath their captain’s power armour, and the bubbling plague is spreading throughout his body. The Fire Hawks venture back out into the Immaterium, their captain slowly succumbing to disease, becoming a vector for the horrific Red Plague.
-Index Chaotica : Garden of Nurgle
Here is the lore of the Fire Hawks who would later become the Legion of the Damned.
>>44872857
Ignore? You gotta provide something of merit for it to be accepted or ignored.
