>>44703900

What's the source on that? I know there's possible Hunter crossover depending on whether or not Monica's cool with Dave using Cherion. Honestly I'm down with Deviant serving as another kind of crossover game.

>>44704614
>serving as a *good* crossover game
ftfy

>>44704691

Well, I mean any game can be a good crossover game but, honestly if anyone's going to be hanging out with other supernaturals, Deviants would probably have pretty good reasons to.

>>44704614
>>44704802
Is Deviant basically supposed to be a Full Splat for Slashers?

>>44704802
Perhaps. As I see it, Beast had issues trying to do crossover and it had several "assets" going for it in that direction but ultimately fell flat. After the whole debacle with Beast, I sincerely doubt that they're going to try to make another crossover-centric line, at least not for a very long time.

>>44704864
What? No. It's about being someone who was experimented on by corporations and escaped. Think Akira or Dark Angel or Prototype or even Doctor Manhattan. It's going to be mostly low power, but with the potential for lots of damage.

>>44704901
>>44704802
There's like no indication that Deviant will be crossover related, and I don't think Dave has ever confirmed or even implied that Cheiron might be a source of Deviants.

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David Bowie died. So if you're a drinker, pour one out for our favourite True Fae.

Have the title track of his last album, released just a few days ago. It's got some pretty World of Darknessy visuals.
https://youtu.be/kszLwBaC4Sw

>>44704938
Oh, that's cool. Kind of pointless since it's the same story niche as Demon, just with different flavoring, though it does go back to post-human characters, which I prefer.

>>44704996
By the same logic, Demon covers the same ground as Changeling and Mage.

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>>44704965
I honor of the true Fay.

Do we know quite how clarity is going to work in 2E for changelings?

DavidH released some spoilers about the Huntsmen on the OPP forums.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K...ew?usp=sharing

>>44704965
He has simply returned to Arcadia. He had stayed with us for far too long, I suppose.

>>44705331
I think you messed up the link.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K8R3qXyDyoXzJKNkVaSzlvMFU/view

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>>44705128
>>44704965
He was also a Vampire.

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>>44705450
And a Mage.

>>44705331
>>44705405
So...the Huntsmen are Meseeks?

>>44705405
>>44705539
Wow, no, never mind. I take that back. They're not Meseeks who have the job, "Catch this guy." They're not even *that* interesting.

I mean, I get that this is a draft and all, just a glimpse, but I do not see myself using Huntsmen as they're described here. Which worries me, since they're the Strix or the Idigam of the Changeling book, likely to have a large section and many themes devoted to them.

Are they still trying to turn Changeling: The Lost into a game about empowerment, or whatever that retarded shit was? There was exactly one World of Darkness game which ever handled the subject of abuse and recovery in a tasteful, thoughtful manner. Please, please tell me they've thought better than to try to apply it some of their heavy-handed Beast-type changes in order to make it "more politically correct". They wouldn't even achieve that.

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>>44704938
>Akira
>Doc Manhattan
>Low powered

I'm getting some really mixed messages here.

>>44705662
>Are they still trying to turn Changeling: The Lost into a game about empowerment

No, because they never were.

>>44705680
The description we got once is that it's intended to be pretty low-powered with the capability of topping out at some pretty crazy shit on the high end. Which is fitting with the inspirations.

>>44705539
LIFE IS PAIN FOR A MESEEKS JERRY!

>>44705680
I hate that I made that image and like six others the day before the name change.
Also, hey, it's hard to think of low powered versions of David Cronenberg superhero shit. Dark Angel, Kyle XY, John Doe. But with the Videodrome hand gun.

>>44705662
I'm curious what game you think handled that well, because the only one I can think of is Changeling: the Lost.

>>44705698
I don't even understand why that would be a bad thing. My least favourite part of Changeling is the whole "stages of grief minus acceptance" bullshit. I don't want to play a game where my whole life is based around how I deal with my abusive ex, but I'm no allowed to actually GET PASSED IT.

>>44705630
... have many people even used the Strix or Idigam?

>>44705680

why is big boss so fucking attractive i mean god damn 10/10 genes

>>44705662

david said he hates people who play rape abuse victim in changeling, and frankly, he's right. changeling didn't handle abuse and recovery tastefully, at least not in actual play.

>>44705737
Because when that guy says "empowerment" he doesn't mean getting past the fact that you were kidnapped by the fae. He doesn't even mean empowerment in the way that you now gain your Seeming by how you escaped.

When he complains that Changeling might be about empowerment, he's worried it's going to be about Social Justice.

>>44705737
>I'm curious what game you think handled that well, because the only one I can think of is Changeling: the Lost.
That's precisely my point. And according to the Onyx Path blog (can't remember when the post was, several months ago. One of the few times they talked about Lost 2E back then) they mentioned messing with the themes because it might trigger someone.

>>44705760
After Beast, can you really blame him? That's some trauma you don't just recover from.

>>44705777
Or you can just move on, because who gives a shit? If Beast isn't your thing because of the clumsy themes and muddled concepts, ignore it. I am. God knows I ignored the World of Darkness all throughout the 90's, because it had nothing I wanted in it.

>>44705737
>>44705730
>Dark Angel, Kyle XY, John Doe

Those guys are all pretty low powered and have no capacity for high end shit at all. I don't know about Kyle, but Jessica Alba was just a secret agent type while John Doe's only power was selective color-blindness. How that ties in with Akira, who becomes a psychic literal god at the end of the manga (unless Dave is a pleb who only saw the movie, which wasn't even the full story) I don't know.

>>44705797

He's bringing it up because there is a fear that Changeling will follow the same pattern, which is perfectly legitimate considering that they are from the same company and share writers between them.

>>44705798
All I care is that The Cheiron Group might be one of the monolithic corporations in it and I freakin' love Cheiron. I love all the corporations-in-the-know like Cheiron, The Deva Corporation, and Last Dynasty International.

>>44705818
No it's not. It's fucking stupid, and the people who get buttruffled over WoD being "SJW" are fucking idiots.

The Huntsman spoilers have again made me realize that Mages seem to have the best, or definitely "least worst," default basic existence in the entire CofD among the major splats.

Vampires are continually hunted by the nearly invincible strix, changelings whole lives revolve around being hunted and returned to an eternity of abuse, and werewolves also endure continual challenges and hunts as both predator and prey, with the idigam just most unstoppable of their enemies.

The other splats' lives certainly are not much better. Mummies are eternal slaves and/or far worse, Demons are totally inhuman and their whole existence is defined by being hunted by powerful and unrelenting angels of the GM, Prometheans suffer and cause disquiet and wastelands and are now hunted by alchemists, etc.

Mages certainly have their fair share of potential adversaries and danger, but they are not really "hunted" in any meaningful capacity. If they exercise even a small modicum of prudence, they can easily use their powers to live a very comfortable and relatively safe life. Of course, they additionally have the benefit of still being and fully enjoying life as a real human, without fear of such things as killing all their friends and loved ones with an unexpected frenzy or death rage, or finding you arcadian clone sleeping with your wife and living your life as if you never left.

Apart from any discussions about which splat is the most powerful or who would win in a white room battle, mages are the only splat whose very existence is not just totally and unsparingly depressing.

Anyone hyped for Dogma:Eternal Night ?

>>44705890

Dude, you forgot the Sin-Eaters. I mean, so did White Wolf, but just so you know!

>>44705890
The problem I always associated with Mage is that danger will always find them, the weird will find a way to influence (and ultimately destroy) a Mage.

From mad lineages to the other political faction who is hunting you because you don't FOLLOW THEIR BELIEFS TO THE EXACT WORD.

You're constantly being offered deals for more power by beings who are WAY out of your league, or being told that you are to weak by other people who are WAY out of your league.

And then what of your life, what will these outside forces who are drawn to you do to your friends and family? Use them for fun, kill them, or just torture them unless you accept some crazy ass deal to stop an unkillable wizard from destroying reality.

You are never hunted as a mage, you wander into a hunt which is looking for something to kill

>>44705925

That's that Not-World of Darkness: The MMO, right? I always wondered if that was one of the things that Dracula said he was going to look into as "IP protection".

>>44705890
>The Huntsman spoilers have again made me realize that Mages seem to have the best, or definitely "least worst," default basic existence in the entire CofD among the major splats.
That's... always how it's been. Their whole thing is that they're put between the boring mundane average soulcrushing safety of regular life and the beautiful enlightened and incredibly dangerous and potentially-literally-soul-destroying world of the Supernal.

Although Vampires aren't really continually hunted by Strix. There are likely far more Vampires than Strix, and Vampires have to deal with other Vampires much more often. Vampires kind of have to deal with the same "mediocrity or danger" of the Mages, but they're forced out of safety by the need to feed and keep from slipping to monsterdom. Mages on the other hand are only encouraged to leave safety by the knowledge that their entire lives are hollow, depressing Lies crafted to imprison their souls in a cage of Flesh and Want.

I mean, I agree that Mages are the ones who could most easily say "fuck all that shit" to their own little supernatural world, but their lives are depressing in the way that knowledge encourages depression.

>>44705939
>That's that Not-World of Darkness: The MMO, right?
yep

>>44705890
Sin-eaters don't have it overly bad, I suppose. From what I understand, for the most part they're just hassled by dead guys at all hours of the day, and those aren't even necessarily all hostile.

>>44705890
In 2e this might not be entirely true anymore. Their Nimbus fucks up the places and people they have sympathetic connections with and attracts the supernatural.

>>44705958

Is that actually going to be made in our lifetimes? I'd give it a spin if it were going into beta soon.

>>44705874
>this might be an issue
>NOPE
Classy.

>>44705937
Sounds right to me. But one thing hunts mages, creatures from the lower depths love to eat magic patterns often from mages.

>>44705964
No, but imagine having ghosts wailing at you 24/7 for help saving their long dead children or seeking vengeance on people they think caused their death 50 years before that person was born.

Sin-eaters are forced to act because if they don't then it'll turn into an insomniac cycle of suicide and the fed up Geist reviving you forever

>>44705926
>>44705964

I don't really have any expertise with or significant recall about Geist. It's ancient by nWOD/CofD standards, its rules were a mess, and few books were released.

Besides the fact they're dead and sharing their lives with a ghostly parasite, are they hunted or continually endangered in any way?

>>44705996

You can just ignore them with a Plasm and a willpower, if I remember right. You could pretty much play a Sin-Eater and never ever have to interact with ghosts if you wanted. It is entirely possible to just take the Bargain and then do nothing, and there's no real carrot/stick to go make you do things, besides "Your ST describes all these ghosts, and isn't that spooky?"

>>44706023
Surely the parasite ghost thingy latched onto your soul has some way to force you to act, since it went to the effort of saving you from death?

Can it possess you if you get to complacent?

>>44706013

Nope. Pretty much all the bad things that happen to Sin-Eaters, as they are now, are stuff that they bring on themselves.

>>44706013
The whole shtick of Geist: The Sin-Eaters is that it flips the World of Darkness on its head by presenting a splat which by and large treats its powers as an awesome thing and their life as a big Halloween party, rather than moping about them. Of course they have it good. Sugared skulls, New Orleans funerals, Carpe Diem, Drink For Tomorrow We Die, etc.

>>44705937

Mages may certainly lead dangerous and complicated lives, particularly in pursuit of greater power, as well as suffer from knowing the world as we know it is all a Lie, but they are still generally able to lead a safe and comfortable (and human!) life on their own terms if they so choose. No other splat really has anything close to such an option.

>>44705978
Alpha is this year but you need to buy the 60$ pack

The pack includes:
>access to Alpha,Beta and Early Access (week before launch)
>forum badge
>In-Game Personal Apartments
>Game soundtrack

>>44706045
Also Mages don't need Mana to survive, whereas Vampires have to hunt or they die

>>44705981
"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".

>>44705972
Isn't that only if they use magic?

>>44706023
>>44705996
Sin-eaters basically only have to do shit because it's effort to ignore ghosts. It's not actually MEANINGFUL effort, but still. Rolling Res + Comp over and over again has to get tiring in-character.

>>44706030
>has some way to force you to act
You'd think so, but no. Mechanics to encourage certain modes of play is insane to certain developers.

>>44706040
To be fair, a lot of Geist is super fucked up spooky shit and depressing. Also, Mages treat their powers as awesome and so do several vampire groups and a Changeling group.

>>44706030

Nope. It doesn't really care about you going out to do ghost shit, either. Like, it'd really like you to experience things that its obsessed with, like maybe shoot some guns or drink a load of liquor, but there's nothing to really make you do that.

People always fret that the optimal game state for Demons is just staying home, but at least they have encroaching Infrastructure and constant hunting. Sin-Eaters can just stay home and the worst that happens is your Geist might cut the Bargain (not that there's any rules or precedence for that, but hey it's something).

>>44706060
>"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".
A writer who has catastrophically fucked up once may do so again. In fact, in the case of writers we've never seen NOT catastrophically fuck up, this is the most reasonable thing to assume.

>>44706046

Hmmm, a bit pricey at this point in my life. I guess it's too early to ask about what the MSRP would be once it's out of Beta, huh?

>>44706060
>Isn't that only if they use magic?

Not in 2e. It gets worse the higher your Gnosis and lower your Wisdom.

>>44706086

There's more than one writer for these books. It's still a possibility, but there'd need to be some seriously good word of mouth before I'd consider picking it up.

>>44706059
>Also Mages don't need Mana to survive, whereas Vampires have to hunt or they die

Mages can even create mana on their own (pattern scouring), to say nothing of its easy access with moderate levels of Prime. They indeed have one of the easier, safer, and less 'evil" fuel sources, although changeling glamour is also very easy to acquire and doesn't hurt anyone.

>>44706092
no idea but there's a cheaper pack that is 15$ and you access to next year's beta and the early access.It's either going to be really cheap or it's going to be free.

>>44706060
>"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".
He had a big hand in Demon, and while that is good in some ways many systems such as Pacts are half-cooked and require houseruling to hell and back to work properly.

>>44706040
>The whole shtick of Geist: The Sin-Eaters is that it flips the World of Darkness on its head by presenting a splat which by and large treats its powers as an awesome thing and their life as a big Halloween party, rather than moping about them. Of course they have it good. Sugared skulls, New Orleans funerals, Carpe Diem, Drink For Tomorrow We Die, etc.

Is there any wonder Geist was a poor seller and had few supplements?

>>44706123
>although changeling glamour is also very easy to acquire and doesn't hurt anyone.

But Changelings have the Demon problem that there very much are things out of your league after you and anyone you interact with could be working for them

>>44705846

That's all fine and dandy, but I'm still confused about what Deviant is really about. Dave has gone on here before to clarify the inspirations but they all still show widely different power scales. Doc Manhattan and the guys in Akira weren't even experimented on until after they got their powers.

Everything that I know does make it sound like its just the Cheiron Group getting its own splat.

>>44705874
>>44706060
>"One book was bad so I think all the books will be bad".

Except no one is saying that. People are bringing up Beast because the Changeling spoilers already (in some people's eyes) are heading in that direction. I don't know if you're will fully ignorant at this point or just plain retarded. Beast being bad fuels the fears that Changeling will be bad too, but David's spoilers have already soured people's opinions on it independent of Beast.

>>44705972
>In 2e this might not be entirely true anymore. Their Nimbus fucks up the places and people they have sympathetic connections with and attracts the supernatural.

Dave indicated the Nimbus effects were largely setting and narrative shtick until very high levels of Gnosis when it might become an minor annoyance or inconvenience. I believe the effects can also be mitigated with Prime spells.

>>44706045

Changelings do once they kill their Fetch. Werewolves do as well, both with the Pack and outside of it. And really, so do Vampires, they just have to work a lot harder at it.

>>44706148
>But Changelings have the Demon problem that there very much are things out of your league after you and anyone you interact with could be working for them

I agree, and hence my original post about how the only splat whose life doesn't inherently suck and may end prematurely without warning are mages.

>>44706062
This is one of the reasons I'm trying to give Sin-eaters some sort of Frenzy style mechanic where their Geist can "take over", as well as an Aspiration/Anchor that gives Beats and Willpower for doing what the Geist wants.

Still trying to think of ways to actually create the Geist, though. I want it to have it's own Traits, but those Traits are mostly going to be Anchors and maybe a power or bonus. I don't really know how to structure that, though, since it's hard to think of iconic ghost archetypes that would fit into the five Thresholds. I mean, thinking of Prey especially is difficult.

I'm thinking a Geist should be:
Passion (a Vice/Virtue equivalent that restores Willpower and Plasm)
Blessing (something on par with a Kith Blessing, basically replacing the Key Skill)
One Key
Threshold

Maybe I shouldn't bother with making templates with names or anything, just have a list of options.

>>44706131
Honestly I think Matt's hand is more obvious in the powers, which are wildly disproportionate and have that "balance is a myth" feel, with some options being better in more situations than others.
Either way, that's Matt, not David.

>>44705760
See, if this was most any other people talking about making this a game about "empowerment", than in context, I wouldn't be worried too much. When you've got so many people on the team who've produced before such classics as "internet bullies must die horribly" and "fight for your God-given right to be called by whatever pronoun you invent today", than in the context of Changeling: The Lost... I'm worried.

>>44706150
>People are bringing up Beast because the Changeling spoilers already (in some people's eyes) are heading in that direction. I don't know if you're will fully ignorant at this point or just plain retarded.
No, they aren't. I'm not being willfully ignorant. If anything, you are. You're seeing something that isn't there and worrying that White Wolf will be too social justicey. Which is like going on Tumblr and complaining that SuperWhoLock is dumb.

>>44706148
>>44706206
Honestly, I hate Changeling when it's treated like Demon. Changelings should wake up in a cold sweat worried their Keeper will grab them again, but that shouldn't be an actual thing that's likely to happen. It's dumb and limiting and holy fuck I fucking hate that battered spouse constantly hiding bullshit. I wanna be a fucking magical faerie who's personality isn't completely informed by "my ex was abusive and controlling".

>>44706135
I think there was some reflection back on it which mentioned they've made its themes too tight. There just wasn't all that much left to write supplements ABOUT. Yes, you could try and start scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas to make a sourcebook for every single Threshold, Key and interesting city, but ultimately, the core book and Book of The Dead really just sort of covered everything that there WAS to Geist. It was a super-duper focused game, even more so than Promethean. It shouldn't have been considered a main gameline in the first place.

>>44705890
>Mages certainly have their fair share of potential adversaries and danger, but they are not really "hunted" in any meaningful capacity.

Except they kind of are. Banishers and shit aside, mages are aware of everything, which consequently means they are a target for everything too. Werewolves don't have to deal with ghosts, vampires don't have to deal with spirits, but mages do and are likely to get hurt for it. And then there are the Seers. They don't organize hunting parties but they do try to subvert and destroy a mage's life. Its probably even worse because you'll never know when that Seer will figure out your identity and use their profane urim to make your wife bite out her tongue.

>>44706045

The Lie is ever present as well and once a Mage sees past it, they can't unsee it. Imagine having the They Live glasses on 24/7 with no way to take them off. I remember one of the fictions about a Seer who realizes just how mindless and predictable people actually are and becoming completely cut off from humanity because he knows everyone is playing out the roles the Exarchs crafted for them.

>>44706177

Changelings aren't hunted after they kill their fetch?

Werewolves very existence is the hunt, and vampires are inherently territorial and competitive with one another and need to consume human blood to survive. This is without the complications of things like death rages and the beast.

Could werewolves and vampires strive to live a life that sucks a little bit less. Sure. It's exceedingly difficult, they'll almost certainly fail in short order, and their better existence is a bad day for your average mage, at least from a comfort and safety perspective.

Even without the eternal arguments about whether mages have the most powerful ability set, they are they only splat that someone who isn't certifiably suicidal or a psychopath in real life should ever want to be.

>>44705746

Just to clarify; I don't care if people play rape victims in Changeling. It's a valid thing to have occurred with a character, and it's a valid metaphor.

My problem really comes with defining characters by their abuse. That, to me, is a problem because it's defining your character by what happened to him, not what he's doing. And to me, roleplaying/storytelling games are about what you do. In my experience, it leads to really dry, often dissonant play, even though it sounds really cool during character creation.

>>44706252

> I wanna be a fucking magical faerie who's personality isn't completely informed by "my ex was abusive and controlling".

Changeling the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition is in its last week on Kickstarter.

>>44706276
>mages are aware of everything, which consequently means they are a target for everything too. Werewolves don't have to deal with ghosts, vampires don't have to deal with spirits, but mages do and are likely to get hurt for it.

They're aware of it, but Unseen Sense is a 1 way street. So as long as their mentor taught them to poker face they'll be fine.

>>44706281
>they are they only splat that someone who isn't certifiably suicidal or a psychopath in real life should ever want to be.

Which is funny because that's what a lot of mages become when they Awaken.

>>44706262
Where did they ever say that? There's plenty you could do with Geist. For instance, some kind of Goddamned focus.

>>44706276
Mages are rarely hunted by those things because Mages don't HAVE to poke their nose into everything. They just WANT to because reality is a Lie and they want out.

>>44706285
Even if your character's abuse is their defining aspect (and as a Changeling it really always is). The problem is that people play Changelings as never being able to grow from that. They're ALWAYS in abuse mode and there's no personal growth and getting over it.

>>44706252
>No, they aren't. I'm not being willfully ignorant. If anything, you are. You're seeing something that isn't there and worrying that White Wolf will be too social justicey. Which is like going on Tumblr and complaining that SuperWhoLock is dumb.

Whether you agree with their interpretation of the spoilers or not, you are being willfully ignorant if you don't think there isn't a basis for their concern. Beast adds to it but the spoilers for Changeling are what started it.

If anything, your angry and emotional response to the possibility of things being different from your world view makes you just as bad as the people who see the SJW boogeyman every where they look.

>>44706354
Dude, projection like that belongs in a movie theater.

>>44706341
>Even if your character's abuse is their defining aspect (and as a Changeling it really always is). The problem is that people play Changelings as never being able to grow from that. They're ALWAYS in abuse mode and there's no personal growth and getting over it.

Yes. In my experience, it's a lot like an 80s-era television show. People avoid "the premise threat". In the case of Changeling, moving on and having a fucking life is the premise threat for them. And to me, that gets very old, very quick.

As an abuse survivor, the time I spent getting over it was rough. It was maybe interesting in the sense of a case study or something. My life really got started once I was able to move on. That situation informed my later life, and that's certainly interesting and worth talking about. But I wouldn't want to play someone stuck in that before-time.

>>44706385

Is mass appeal worth diluting a well-loved game's central theme?

God knows how many abuse survivors I know - my boyfriend chief among them - held Changeling so dear because it dealt with what they experienced. Why throw away something so compelling, that reached so many people?

>>44706385
>As an abuse survivor
Do you really need to keep saying that? This isn't tumblr.

>>44706276

I never claimed that mages didn't have potentially significant adversaries or their lives were always rosy. That's certainly not the case. However, although they may interact with virtually anything with a their potential power set, and actually may want to do so to further increase their own abilities, the setting doesn't really define them as being "hunted," no less by beings with powers far in excess of their own. Life and death danger is usually a choice for mages most of the time.

Moreover, all splats suffer from hunters or recurring antagonists from their own communities like Banishers and Seers. However, these groups by default are no more ubiquitous or dangerous than other splat's equivalents.

In light of the broad range of mage abilities they could potentially also have the broadest (and largest) amount of enemies. Nevertheless, their very existence is not inherently precarious (and they still get to be human and powerful)


I would also add that the very little we know about Deviant indicates their existence to be on par with Changelings and Demons. Turned into a monster against their will and hunted by the groups that created them for purposes of exploitation.

>>44706354
>Whether you agree with their interpretation of the spoilers or not, you are being willfully ignorant if you don't think there isn't a basis for their concern. Beast adds to it but the spoilers for Changeling are what started it.

Yeah. I dunno. I'm biased. But like, I'm a pretty firm social justice type. But my work in Changeling isn't about social justice. I don't know who thinks I was talking about changing anything because of "triggering" or some other bullshit like that. But that's stupid. Changeling's a great game that deals with sensitive topics. In the intro, I'll put a content note, talking about how the book deals with sensitive topics. Then, I'll deal with sensitive topics. I don't think my readers are unable to handle anything. The very idea of "trigger warnings" isn't to change material or erase it; it's to tell people up front, "Expect to deal with X, Y, and Z in this material".

This isn't a book that'll have trigger warnings in it. This isn't a book I'm going to self-censor because I think a reader can't handle it. And if anyone thinks that's the case, they're wrong.

My interest is in making the best possible experiences at the table, and presenting material in the best ways I can do that.

>>44706385

I'm just glad you can't ruin Wraith or Promethean.

>>44706406
>held Changeling so dear because it dealt with what they experienced.
But it didn't. He literally just said "it didn't deal with that, it just said it did". The game didn't actually do anything other than make lip service to that as a theme.

Like, there are no mechanics to that. If you change all the fluff to be more like Changeling: the Dreaming, you can. It's not like VtR2e's Humanity, which strongly encourages a certain type of play and reinforces the themes.

Hell, I know plenty of people who played characters that weren't abuse survivors. I've seen people try to be subversive and played characters who just walked out of Arcadia.

He's not throwing it away, he's doing what every other 2e game does and making the game actually work towards the themes it wants to.

>>44706431
Anon, the guy in charge of Promethean did Beast.

>>44706406
And that is still there. Just that it now focuses more on "What now?"

I do not see a problem with not trying to endlessly wallow in what happened.

>>44706411
>As an abuse survivor
>Do you really need to keep saying that? This isn't tumblr.

It's not like David is sharing any personal details, and it's relevant because its informing his choices for the direction of Changeling 2e.

>>44706406

If you think that my enabling people to play characters who have moved on is throwing away the experiences of people who haven't, I'm not sure I can convince you otherwise.

>>44706444
>He's not throwing it away, he's doing what every other 2e game does and making the game actually work towards the themes it wants to.

Pretty much everything you just said there.

>>44706428
>The very idea of "trigger warnings" isn't to change material or erase it; it's to tell people up front, "Expect to deal with X, Y, and Z in this material".
It bothers me that people don't understand this. I tend to link this when it comes up:
https://youtu.be/XvoYtUhjRWM
But I also just like an excuse to link Idea Channel.

>>44706448
It's the "not sharing personal details" part that makes it come off as superfluous.

>>44706314
>>[Mages] are they only splat that someone who isn't certifiably suicidal or a psychopath in real life should ever want to be.
>Which is funny because that's what a lot of mages become when they Awaken.

Your comment is insightful, ironic, and most importantly, totally accurate. Well done.

>>44705890
Things from the lower depths actively hung down mana, though, to fulfill their empty existences. Not to mention mages are naturally drawn to mysteries, addicted even, and through that comes trouble. And lots of it.

>>44706431

Wraith can't get ruined because it's never fucking coming out.

>>44706465
Do you really want him to spill the gory details of his history of abuse? Will it make Changeling a better game in your eyes?

>>44706465
>But I also just like an excuse to link Idea Channel.

I mostly say it because there's this odd meme that I don't care about abuse survivors' experiences when I say I'm interested in seeing characters that can grow past their abuse, and who aren't defined by their abuse.

It's a topic that's important to me. It's one of the reasons I was so passionate about pursuing Changeling development. And I want to explore more kinds of survivor experiences than people who can't get on with their lives.

>>44706456

What does that have to do with making your game about general trauma, rather than abuse?

>>44706484
Those are also rare.
And isn't this all about how Mages can, if they choose, ignore all their template stuff and live happy lives? Mages don't have any supernatural compulsion or need to go hunt down mysteries. They can be content without doing so.

>>44706447
>I do not see a problem with not trying to endlessly wallow in what happened.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, it reminds me of WW from the 1990's, and I'm glad they moved on. I certainly did.

>>44706519
If you can ignore the scratching on the back of your mind that your Unseen Sense provides.
As well as dealing with the effects of your nimbus (in 2e).

It would take a very certain type of person to choose to completely ignore the kind of cosmic revelation that Awakening provides, and completely go about their normal, mundane life.

You'd have to applaud the Exarchs in such a situation, their program worked wonderfully.

>>44706512

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I THINK I might know what you're talking about. But if I'm correct, then someone must have talked about a conversation that happened in our private development discussions, and had just about zero influence on the final product.

>>44706135
>Had few supplements
You mean no supplements?

>>44706519
>>44706484

>And isn't this all about how Mages can, if they choose, ignore all their template stuff and live happy lives? Mages don't have any supernatural compulsion or need to go hunt down mysteries. They can be content without doing so.

All true, and mages can still use their powers to ensure a very comfortable existence without significant repercussion, social, physical or supernatural.

The Lower Depths have also always been a very minor, albeit interesting, component of the CofD, and their denizens largely deal with humans (Inferno), vampires (strix), and mummies (Duat). The default setting does not indicate any specific antagonism between things from the LD and mages, and if mages don't summons such creatures, which has little inherent benefit, they could easily be ignored.

>>44706561
It's not necessarily that they evr would, but theat they can.

A Vampire must hunt. A Werewolf must hunt.

A Demon must hide. Changeling must hide. A Promethean must hide.

A Mummy must act. A Hunter must act.

A Mage must do nothing, unless he wants to.

>>44706565

One of your freelancers has been saying that Changeling 2e isn't about abuse, but more generalized trauma.

It irks me.

>>44706567
>You mean no supplements?

Geist had Book of the Dead as a supplement, which was also a crossover text. I bought it because it was great for mage.

DaveB hinted that he had ideas for a Geist 2e. Until Deviant was announced, I thought Geist would be the next big release with him as developer. I'm now curious if G 2e is still planned, and who would want the lead the project.

>>44706584
Mages must hide as well man, both Banishers and Seers aren't too fond of other Mages.

The former just want to kill you.
The latter may want to enslave you.

Plus the Pentacle isn't exactly full of saints.

>>44706561
You don't HAVE to investigate. And chances are if you're just doing your day job, you won't even have cause to investigate. We don't even know just what the Nimbus effects are, but from the sound of it they're minor fluff, but nothing even mechanical.

Also, keep in mind that all of us are shitposting on 4chan and refreshing Youtube/Reddit/Facebook/Imgur/[Website] instead of going out and exploring any of the wholly mundane but nonetheless exciting mysteries that we encounter every day. All a Mage needs to ignore the Supernal is laziness.

>>44706584
Don't get me wrong. A Mage is very unlikely to not do Mage things. Even >>44706568 talks about Mages using their powers to make their lives more comfortable. I'm saying that, much like Geist, a Mage can COMPLETELY IGNORE their template. It's mechanically possible. They don't suffer anger issues or spirits or even ghosts pestering them. They don't need to feed. They have no incentive to use magic other than the fact that NOT using semiphenomenal cosmic power is really difficult. NOT exploring the way that reality is a Lie and your soul is trapped within a prison of material desire is difficult. Not because there's a mechanical penalty, but because DOING those things is much easier than living a normal life, and everything spirals out of control and you're wrapped up in the horror shit.

>>44706625
And a mage that ignores their template isn't going to be a blip on either of their radars.

>>44706616
Book of the Dead is like Slasher. It's technically a blue book supplement that's just very useful for a specific gameline.

>>44706612
>One of your freelancers has been saying that Changeling 2e isn't about abuse, but more generalized trauma.

Gah. I'll have to figure that out and rein it in a little.

I knew one of my former freelancers was.

So yeah. This gets to be a problem with open development. It's a unique issue you don't get when everything's tight lipped.

>>44706616
>You don't HAVE to investigate. And chances are if you're just doing your day job, you won't even have cause to investigate. We don't even know just what the Nimbus effects are, but from the sound of it they're minor fluff, but nothing even mechanical.

Geist isn't out of the question. We're still discussing it. It's contingent on a few things.

I can't tell you who is on the books to develop currently, because it's not set in stone yet. However, I will say I'm super fucking excited, because the one time I worked for this developer was one of the most fun times I've had working on a game, and the inspirations they're listing so far are fucking keen. If it all goes that way, Geist 2e will be phenomenal.

>>44706625

Again, no one has said or implied mages don't have recurring adversaries. All spalts also have internal antagonists.

However, Seers don't generally go around hunting Pentacle mages. It's dangerous and unproductive unless they're interfering with something important and they're ordered to do so from their masters. The Seers are definitely not like the Technocracy of Ascension.

Banishers are also a minor setting piece. All supernatural being have some hunters (or Hunters), but they're not a ubiquitous threat and rarely are more powerful than trained mages from the Orders.

The Pentacle indeed includes many assholes. Nevertheless, Pentacle mages are not in the habit of killing one another without obvious reason or provocation.

>>44706679
>Geist isn't out of the question. We're still discussing it. It's contingent on a few things.
Contingent?
Also, if Geist was greenlit, how soon would it even be out? I mean, I'm trying to make a 2e version of Geist because 2019 is a long time to wait.

But then again I'm also slow and jump from one project to the next, so my version would probably be out by 2020.

>>44706625
If Mages lost Gnosis or Wisdom for not trying to ascend, or the longer they went without using vulgar magic the more potent their Paradoxes became (or some less retarded rule of similar intent), it would force them to act in the same way vitae expenditure does to Vampires.

As it stands nothing stops a Mage just fortifying their magical mansion and living their lives with a harem and drugs.

>>44706679

Are you writing anything for Dark Eras?

>>44706693
>But then again I'm also slow and jump from one project to the next, so my version would probably be out by 2020.

No clue.

Like, I'm fairly certain there will be a Geist 2e. But I know there's current plans that aren't set in stone. I don't know when it'd be out. I don't know anything but REALLY preliminary discussions I've been part of.

I hope things go that direction though.

>>44706707
>As it stands nothing stops a Mage just fortifying their magical mansion and living their lives with a harem and drugs.

That doesn't sound so bad. It makes it easier to make a more consistent setting if most mages are self absorbed in the extreme.

>>44706712

Dark Eras?

Yeah. I wrote Bowery Dogs myself, with Travis Stout developing. I developed Grimm's Fairy Tales Lost and wrote a chunk of it. I also developed Edo Jidai Hunter the Vigil, and wrote a pretty significant part of it.

>>44706656

Mages don't have to effectively ignore their template to live a relatively normal and safe life.

Mages are simply not universally hunted or terrorized with a precarious existence, nor need to do anything unsavory, no less evil, to get by. They are not slaves, nor are they dead, consumed by psychotic anger, dangerous hungers, or compulsions. If they choose to use their powers less, they are even less of a threat or noticeable. They even get to enjoy a life as a human being because they still are human beings, just with the added ability to notice the supernatural and defend properly themselves.

>>44706714

How do you personally feel about Mummy?

>>44706719

Any cool fiddly bits in the Grimm chapter?

>>44706719
when the h*ck is dark eras coming out anyway

>>44706715
I remember there are a specific type of Mages who devote their entire life (and experience) to enhancing one supremely impressive Sanctum.

>>44706719
You're the awoo guy, yea? How do you suppose a bunch of high-Primal urge bone shadow recluses who spend 90% of their time in the shadow would respond to a handful of humans+ a wolf blooded bringing news of a ridiculously powerful spirit(angel) in the material world doing as angels are want to do and ruining everything?

>>44706707
>s it stands nothing stops a Mage just fortifying their magical mansion and living their lives with a harem and drugs

Power is all about money, bitches, and "lifestyle."

Who said there's no reason to join the Seers? What's the point of magic if you're not movin' on up.

Sure, you might occasionally need to obey strange orders from the very symbols of human oppression, but you get an American Express Black Card as part of your signing bonus, and don't get me started about the $5,000 a night whores....

>>44706780
that's Chris

>>44706276
>Its probably even worse because you'll never know when that Seer will figure out your identity and use their profane urim to make your wife bite out her tongue.
Or bite out your tongue while kissing you.

>>44706787
Well, shit.

>>44706656
>You don't HAVE to investigate. And chances are if you're just doing your day job, you won't even have cause to investigate. We don't even know just what the Nimbus effects are, but from the sound of it they're minor fluff, but nothing even mechanical.
No, you don't have to. But it's going to keep bugging you. And if you were the kind of person who could easily pass up a mystery in favor of living a comfortable life, you probably wouldn't have awakened. It's not a compulsion, it's a character trait the game assumes characters share to some degree. Buying into that sort of thing is also part of playing the game.

>>44706809

In addition to developing Changeling 2e, DavidH works on Requiem, is developing CofD Hurt Locker, and writes for classic WOD.

>>44706751

Uh yeah. We added a seventh Seeming, who are basically people who escaped by using the rules of stories.

>>44706757

No clue. I finished my Bowery Dogs stuff over a year ago. My Edo and Grimm's Fairy Tales stuff was all finished on schedule months ago. I try not to pay too much attention to release dates for stuff that I'm not developing.

>>44706743

That's a complicated question. I'm not a huge fan. I feel like it hews a little too close to CWoD sensibilities, and ignores a lot of what makes NWoD/CofD cool. That's just personal opinion.

I didn't actually read it until I was asked to co-develop Mortal Remains. Filamena and I tried playing it, because she had to doctor/write half of the mummy chapter (like the Habibti Ma stuff). It's okay?

I also find it a bit narrow. Like, the Venn Diagram of interests required for my group pretty much guarantees I'd never be able to get involved in a serious Mummy game.

I think maybe it would have benefitted from being a "blue book" like Immortals instead. I dunno.

Ironically, way back when, before Mummy was even outlined, Eddy Webb was talking about developing it, and asked if he could pull some ideas/themes from one of my indie games, Amaranthine, in specific its intense reliance on short flashbacks to tell epic, millennia-spanning stories. I don't think any of that made it in once CAS took over.

It's also the only NWoD game I've not at all been involved in. So I don't have as much care/attachment to it.

>>44706786
Also, its not as if Seers are all bad -- the book Seers of the Throne talks about them having created religions and divisions in people good and bad, and how you can distract people from ascension by making them starve or by making them confident in non-supernatural means to obtain salvation.

>>44706844

Yeah. I actually wrote parts of Requiem 2e, Forsaken 2e, Mage 2e, Promethean 2e, Demon, Beast, and other stuff. I get around.

I wrote the "core template" stuff for Forsaken. Like, Harmony, shapeshifting, Hunt Conditions, Merits, healing, all that shit. That was a way long time ago though; I've not even really read the final Forsaken 2e book. So I'm not the best person to ask questions.

>>44706848
Hurt locker when? My thirst for armory reloaded:Reloaded is as unquenchable as it is grand.

>>44706843

A general, entirely voluntary, desire to investigate mysteries, no less while possessing a broad host of powers generally capable of providing significant defense and offense, is hardly comparable to the daily life and death struggles of Changelings and Demons, the compulsions, hungers and inherent hostility of vampires and werewolves (to say nothing of the strix or idigam), or living a life of effective servitude like mummies.

>>44706865

I literally just sent it over to editing. Editing should be done like Feb 1st. Not long after that? I can't say exactly when, but basically there's art direction/layout, then approvals.

>>44706848

Is CAS a cool guy? I don't think I've ever seen anything from him online.

Does he exist?

>>44706887

CAS will finish all scheduled supplements for Mummy before this end of this Sothic Turn.

I would not suggesting waking him to ask for more supplements...

>>44706733
If Mages do deal with their Template Shit™ it's a good bet that they'll run afoul of something, especially since in 2e their Template Shit™ is literally poking things.

>>44706843
What I'm pointing out is that it's carrot, not stick.

>>44706848
>Filamena and I tried playing it, because she had to doctor/write half of the mummy chapter (like the Habibti Ma stuff).
Did she write the Faithful of Shulpae? Because honestly I think the Anthropophagia merit is a lame copout, and it would make a lot of sense if it was written by someone who didn't like/understand Mummy, and wanted to save wordcount for a better game, but still for some reason wanted to give Mummies a Conspiracy instead of Geist or Changeling.

>>44706897

I would happily die to give this world Book of Going Westward.

I would love to hear DaveB's perspective on if and why he believes a "typical" mage's life sucks as much as the other splats.

He usually chimes in around now when Mage is discussed.

>>44706887

I'm a bad person to ask. I'm a divisive asshole.

I've had interactions with him in the past. I'm aware that he exists. I was in the same room as him once. He's definitely not imaginary. I assure you.

>>44706584
>A Mage must do nothing, unless he wants to.

True. But they also get programmed with an obsessive personality, dedicated towards things they don't understand. Combine that with the illusion that they can do anything, and mages get killed.

>>44706780
Stew is the awoo boss, Chris is the cool awoo guy who hangs out here. Stew is harder to get hold on than the higgs boson, it seems.

>>44706786
Honestly, unless you become a prelate, the only BIG threat you have are ladder-climbers who wants your position.
If you are the overseer of somewhere irrelevant, however, you get money, bitches, phenomenal cosmic power, and no one trying to murder you.

>>44706910

She kinda liked it, FWIW. She did write that. Also, they've been a source of a ton of glowing commentary, so YMMV.

We weren't saving word count for anything. Every chapter got exactly as many words.

Honestly, the only reason Mummy got Compact/Conspiracy groups and Geist/Changeling didn't is because I wasn't a developer when we started the book; I wanted at least one player group in every chapter, as analogue to the original Hunter supplements. The Mummy chapter wasn't going to have them, but one of the two writers completely flaked way after the book was due. So, I had to fill the space, and quickly.

On average, how many vampires are you looking at in a given population of 100,000? in NWoD that is.

>>44706910
>If Mages do deal with their Template Shit™ it's a good bet that they'll run afoul of something, especially since in 2e their Template Shit™ is literally poking things.

All splats poke things and suffer consequences. The difference in Mage is that things are not always trying to poke mages without good and obvious reasons, and mages are usually able to poke back with equal or greater ferocity.

>>44706848
Ok. My respect for you just shot way up.
I personally like mummy, for some of the reasons you aren't a fan. But damn, I'm glad to see people actually having opinions, rather than just cowering down and answer what people want to hear.

>>44706684
Ah, but they do Hunt down unaligned mages and "convince" then to become Seers.

>>44706962

A Hunter group that approaches Changeling stuff through the lens of UFO lore; hot or not?

>>44706962
>Also, they've been a source of a ton of glowing commentary, so YMMV.
... but it's literally just "make up your own power". Most of the Dread Powers would even need to be reworked, and definitely refluffed.

>>44706972
All splats poke things and suffer the consequences in that poking things means consequences. Only Mages are encouraged specifically to go out and poke things.

>>44706985
Only if you do stuff with your magic. If you don't ever magic about, you'll never attract their attention.

>>44706659

It's very comforting to hear you disagree with him,

>>44706968
As many as you need.
Vampire populations spike in cities where Embrace is unregulated, or even approved of. But cities with few vampires, keep having few vampires.

It's simply too diverse to have any specific numbers.

>>44707001
>you'll never attract their attention
Unless any of them walk around with Prime aura vision on.
Which is actually pretty helpful.

>>44706968
About 1/10,000

>>44707017

What the fuck does Mage Sight with Prime or Fate do?

>>44707027
1/50 000 in Masquerade

>>44707001
>Only Mages are encouraged specifically to go out and poke things.

I definitely don't agree. Werewolves and vampires must hunt. Demons and Changelings are constantly hunted by creatures more powerful than themselves.

My point is not that mages all have easy lives, it's just that their lives are comparatively much easier (and far more "normal" and human) and they actually have some reasonable options to relax and take themselves out of the supernatural rat race if they so choose. The free agency and options are what's most relevant.

>>44707037

Mage sight is very different in 2e, and replaces many of the old 1e spells.

Check-out DaveB's spoilers.

http://theonyxpath.com/revelations/

>>44706679
Well it can't be worse mechanically the the mess that is in the first edition. I guess it could but i doubt it.

>>44707001

Eh. There's a disagreement you have.

I find that more open-ended powers tend to work for some people, and not for others, because there's no good way to do them without devolving into wordy pedantry and time-consuming edge case work. We played with them a few times, and they were a ton of fun for us. So I don't know.

>>44707002

Well hell. I disagree with everyone. I hope you can find it as a source of comfort.

>>44706993

I proposed one during the initial conversations for Mortal Remains; I had an idea that felt a little like Division Six meets the Lone Gunmen. But I wasn't the developer at the time, and author of that section (I think it was Jess Hartley?) said she didn't want to do any new groups.

>>44707101

I'd love to see that Hunter group in a blog post or on the forums if you can't sneak it into HtV 2e.

The CofD needs more UFOs and the people who chase them.

>>44707101

David, has Monica selected you as one of the writers for Hunter 2e?

>>44706976
I don't see why people couldn't be honest about what they like and don't like so long as they don't completely slam it.

Speaking of which, i wish mummy were playable it has amazing powers setting but its pretty bad in actual play.

>>44707113
>I'd love to see that Hunter group in a blog post or on the forums if you can't sneak it into HtV 2e.

My pitch was less than a paragraph. I definitely didn't write them; I was just giving the other writers some ideas. I wish I had more time for longer-form home-brew stuff.

I don't know if I'm involved in Hunter 2e yet. I'd be sad if not; it'd be the first 2e book I wasn't on. But, I haven't been contacted or talked to anyone about it. If I'm not, I MIGHT write Hunter: Tokyo anyway, because it'd suck if Hunter broke the trend of having my Tokyo content in every 2e core. Particularly considering Edo Jidai Hunter was my baby.

>>44706910
>What I'm pointing out is that it's carrot, not stick.
Okay, sure. Definitely. It's a pretty damn addictive carrot, though.

>>44707002
He's got seniority. He's practically got tenure. Anything short of crashing his car into Rich's house and he's got job security.

He could even complain about the Exalted art and get away with it.

>>44707139
Best kind of carrots.

>>44707126
>David, has Monica selected you as one of the writers for Hunter 2e?

No idea. I hope. I'm hugely into Hunter. I adore the Compact/Conspiracy setup the game has; I like not having a small group of 'canon' organisations that dominate play, but I like using short form social groups like C&C to express game concepts and make statements about the world.

It's actually one of the things I pitched for Requiem 2e.

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>>44707146
What's wrong with the Exalted art?

>>44707043
To be fair, isn't it hard for demons to be caught unless they start doing stuff? If a demon loves peace and quiet, he may be even harder to find than a mage.

>>44707170
Read the Demon Storyteller's Guide fiction chapter. There's one Demon who thinks he's managed to totally drop off the radar and form his own Hell by buying all the real estate and carefully vetting who he allows to live thee.

Turns out the GM is pre-vetting the applicants he meets and the tree in his back yard is communication infrastructure, relaying his every word back to the GM.

If Demons get complacent, they get caught. If Mages get complacent, they sleep til noon and all their spells mean nothing bad happens.

>>44707170

I'm not big into Demon, but I thought all Demons had an "encroaching infrastructure" problem that inevitably leads to discovery, at least that's what I inferred from my quick perusal of the Storyteller's Handbook.

Mages can also uses their powers relatively freely without much repercussion so long as they don't poke something more powerful. Great wealth and comfort are relatively simple without poking anything or anyone that would constitute a threat.

>>44707194
How does that even work? Demons can sense Infrastructure.

>>44707136
>>44707149

If you really want to write for Hunter, it certainly wouldn't be untoward if you contacted Monica directly rather than waiting for her to contact you.

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>>44707210
Sorry, it's not Infrastructure but a concealed angel.


>Deep beneath the carefully manicured lawns and smoothly-asphalted streets, the angel Sakkirel slowly extruded another thin root through the soil and into the plumbing of Israfel’s house. It tasted the demon’s waste, broke it into component molecules and added the data to what it had collected over the last six years. The tiny sound wave vibrations of Israfel’s conversations made the leaves of Sakkirel’s above-ground forms tremble and capture the words.

>>44707225
>If you really want to write for Hunter, it certainly wouldn't be untoward if you contacted Monica directly rather than waiting for her to contact you.

Thank you.

I have actually put my hand forward. But I think she's in early planning/whatever stages. I don't know. I haven't heard anything.

I usually reach out early on any of these and offer my assistance because I've been so deeply involved in 2e.

>>44707258

Monica appears to indeed be very early in her process. She's had a few blog entries, nothing specific, and she's even soliciting advice / fan feedback, including a possible open call for writers.

If she's truly trying to "democratize" the developer process, I wish her luck, for she will certainly need it in great abundance.

>>44707234
Fucking trees.

>>44707234
>It's an Angel
That makes it cool. Even if it does eat poop.

>>44707258

Isn't it against the OPP corporate charter for new or revised CofD games not include a majority of DavidH-authored Merits?

>>44707194
>If Demons get complacent, they get caught. If Mages get complacent, they sleep til noon and all their spells mean nothing bad happens.

Well you can say that's how it works in theory, but in practice you're going to be losing Cover for doing stuff and only getting it back if you're pretty aggressive about buying up people's pets and ex girlfriends and shit.

>>44707310

You jest.

When I was doing assignments for Changeling, I got uncomfortable because I had to give up control of a 2e Merits section to someone else.

Fortunately, I really loved Jeremy Kostiew's core template Merits. And I had everyone do Merits for their own stuff. So like, the person I had on Oneiromancy did the Oneiromancy Merits. The person I had on Hedgespun did the Hedgespun Merits. I think it worked out really well.

>>44707344

Are there currently Advanced and Epic Merits in the Changeling 2e drafts?

It's really a shame they were cut from the new corebook.

So unless I'm misunderstanding...the scale incept allows you to increase numerical modifiers, which means for say...the speed numina, you could use it to increase the factor by which it multiplies the angels speed, yes? I just did some math based on this presumption and found that if an angel I had statted up used this combination it could move at about 29000 miles per hour, which would be(unless google is lying to me) 38 times the speed of sound.

>>44707361
>Fortunately, I really loved Jeremy Kostiew's core template Merits. And I had everyone do Merits for their own stuff. So like, the person I had on Oneiromancy did the Oneiromancy Merits. The person I had on Hedgespun did the Hedgespun Merits. I think it worked out really well.

I should probably clarify, since I've talked so much about these Epic Merits lately.

1) I wrote them for GMC. I didn't have space to put them in. The ones I didn't put in, I ended up putting into Beast.

2) Matt took some of them out. I don't know off-hand which. But the Kickstarter draft, IIRC, had all the ones I included. I can't remember.

3) I didn't really think to put them in the CofD Rulebook, because I was mostly just copying the same ones, and adding a few new ones for my Investigation and Chase rules. I didn't have space to add pretty much anything. So it's not like Rose cut them or anything; I just never included them.

4) The Advanced Library will go in Mage 2e.

5) I might put some in Changeling 2e. If I find a little space. I'll decide that in like the next two weeks, basically.

6) I MIGHT put a couple in Hurt Locker, just to sort of lay some precedent. They're not perfect for that book, but also that book is a real hodgepodge of stuff. In a lot of ways, it's an expanded CofD book, as much as it is specifically about violence stuff.

7) I like numbered lists.

>>44706045
>but they are still generally able to lead a safe and comfortable (and human!) life on their own terms if they so choose.
What part of Addicted To Mystery is unclear?

They can't. Every last Mage is compulsively obsessed with poking shit that's best not poked.

They can't just Awaken to the Supernal and then ignore it and go back to living a normal life.

>>44707380
Where is this from? And sounds about right.

>>44707471
Demon storytellers guide, adds special powers for angels caled "incepts", they're things like he one listed above, which is Scale, there's another that allows you to increase the number of objects created by a numina(units)

>>44707469
Care to elaborate?

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>>44707469
>They can't. Every last Mage is compulsively obsessed with poking shit that's best not poked.
So basically this.

>>44707526
>>44707552
It's the entire theme of Mage 2e, and has been all over the open dev blogs.

You guys have been reading those, right?

>>44707113
UFOs, aliens, alien creatures. Every supernatural being under the sun is already there, making the aliens of all things be fake ("they're actually true fae/spirits/astral beings/demons/ghosts/etc.") is silly.

>>44707526
You can't just accidentally Awaken in an accident any more, like Moros being created by near-death experiences.

Each Awakening follows a growing realization of the existence of Magic after piecing together fragments you uncover through your frantic, obsessive search. Helped along by a Mystery Play.

An obsession which only fades slightly once you DO Awaken.

>>44707591
>It's the entire theme of Mage 2e

That's... not anything at all. I mean, we gotta remember Mage 1e's theme was "Power Corrupts" but they were given powers that were free and completely non corrupting, unless you go to completely bizarre lengths with Paradox.

There may or may not be anything to it.

>>44705798
Of course I read Akira in the manga. Come *on*.

>>44707651
Sure, but we have no idea what substance there is to that or to what degree that obsession will lead them to have to leave the house, instead of, say, shitposting on /x/, unless supernal lore literally cannot be contained by the internet and mages intuitively know that. And that's just for example.

>>44707683
Spreading Supernal lore to sleepers, or even other supernaturals is a pretty series crime under Lex Magicka.

>>44707700
If you have to actually discover lore yourself, then either way its stuff that hasn't been hoovered up by the Guardians yet.

>>44706030
>Surely the parasite ghost thingy latched onto your soul has some way to force you to act, since it went to the effort of saving you from death?
The parasite ghost thingy latched onto your soul did so because it's tired of being dead and wants to experience being alive again. If anything, it's going to ENCOURAGE you to ignore those pesky whining ghosts and get back to doing living people stuff like cocaine and whores.

Geist was really big on cocaine and whores.

>>44707717
>Geist was really big on cocaine and whores.

They must party with the Seers.

>>44706848
>its intense reliance on short flashbacks to tell epic, millennia-spanning stories. I don't think any of that made it in once CAS took over.
The only Mummy game I've actually seen is Dave Brookshaw's, and his game is all about this, so this statement confuses me.

>>44707665
Well for one thing every single Mage has a built-in stat labelled "Obsessions", and Dave seems pretty good about writing his mechanics to actually reinforce his themes.

He completely fucking rewrote the way Paradox works for not being thematic enough, for example.

>>44707713
"Actually discovering lore yourself" is required to get Arcane XP out of it, yes. There's a blog post that talks about how Mysteries have to be personally experienced or they don't count.

Which gets Mages off their asses and out into the dark corners of the World of Darkness poking shit that's best not poked.

>>44707765

Well, I *did* write for Mummy, and spent most of my time writing Storyteller material about how to incorporate flashbacks.

Mummy's an odd game for me. My group really liked it, and it hit several of my obsessions (flawed memory and perception issues, deep time & history, revelatory campaign structure) square-on. I really enjoyed writing for it. Then in Sothis Ascends I became entirely obsessed with making the Old Kingdom setting as authentic as I could while still featuring mummies, and I just got done Developing the mage/mummy crossover setting for Dark Eras.

On the other hand, it's got issues relating to being the last 1st ed game, which ignored several other games (as is CAS' right, btw - it's just a choice I wouldn't have personally made) and did things like its ghost setting and rules expansion that's incompatible with Geist.

Also - I've hung out with CAS a few times. He's real. He even introduced me to Mark Rein*Hagan once. He's just not keen on participating in internet fora, which I can't blame him for.

>>44707671
oh hey Dave is here.

Dave, care to help explain to these Anons how Mages don't just Awaken to the Supernal and then go straight the fuck back to their mortal lives, except now without a power and heating bill?

>>44707810
>Caring about compatibility with Geist
This statement also confuses me.

>>44707797
So when you find information its rendered useless for everyone else? Bizarre.

>>44707651

You have to actually look for magic before you can find it?

That kinda reduces the options for mages, especially those of the less academic sort.

>>44707825
It's less that and more "reading about it in a book doesn't confer Profound Supernal Knowledge".

Basically the Mysterium's Egregore faction is right.

>>44707787

Do the obsessions have to actually be magic related? Or could you say, have a cop who's obsessed with seeing justice done even if they need to go outside the laws of man and nature to get it?

>>44707820

In setting, The sort of person who would do that wouldn't Awaken, and mages can't turn their Peripheral Mage Sight off, so they're constantly bombarded with "pings" from the uncanny.

Mechanically, it's mostly carrot-based. The system is meant to lure you onto the hunt for Mysteries with Arcane beats. Nimbus is a factor, though, especially for a mage who doesn't keep a healthy separation between her Shadow and mundane lives.

Combine the two, and any player characters who refuse to act like mages out of sheer obstinacy just fall into my "why are you even playing this game, then?" bin. Or, if they push it, targets for other mages who accuse them of being Banishers. Or for supernatural entities that don't like mages.

>>44707851

>In setting, The sort of person who would do that wouldn't Awaken

Even if their mundane life IS an area they'd see a lot of use and attempts to progress their skills with magic? Like say, a Detective who's more than willing to do his best to solve supernatural crimes as well as mundane or ask the ghost of a victim who killed them?

I might be pondering about a favorite previous Mage character which was a Hong Kong Detective Adamantine Arrow. Not the most knowledgeable about the weird stuff in the world but more than willing to throw down with anything and everything that was preying on mortal people and do their best to learn what sort of stuff was out there.

Mostly if they'd still work because they managed to keep a very good handle on their mundane life while doing all that. They just ended up with a reputation for having almost uncanny ability to find evidence.

>>44707820
Seems like a bit of a misrepresentation of the opposing POV m80

The earlier debate centered more around how the default or "typical" quality of life for a mage is arguably just much better than other major splats (apart from the argument about who;s more powerful), not whether mages lived an easy life or didn't regularly encounter danger. Mages are not being hunted by anyone, are still alive and essentially human, don't stand a good chance of accidentally killing family and friends, can choose to avoid danger or unnecessary risk, etc.

See:
>>44705890
>>44706045
>>44706281
>>44706413
>>44706584

Do you believe this is true, or in your opinion as Illustrious Mage 2e Grand Poobah do mages suffer equal or comparable maladies as the other splats?

>>44704938
>>44704996
>>44705798

So what I *said*, back at GenCon, was that we intend Deviant to be by default the lowest-powered game bar Hunter, because Deviant's antagonists skew heavily to "large organized shadowy conspiracies of normal human beings" and powers like mages' or vampires' would take all the fun out of it.

BUT it doesn't have to be. That's just the default playstyle. If you want more and more powerful characters, the downsides of being a Deviant and the scale of their opposition will scale up with them. So, to take two examples, Deviant's setting encourages you to play nearly-human types opposed by conspiracies who can't act openly either, like Dark Angel, Orphan Black, Sense8, et al, but if you want to be Bruce Banner, your opposition will become the US Army. And if you really want to be Tetsuo or Dr Manhattan... You won't last long, but it'll be awesome while you do.

Which is why it's looking increasingly likely that Cheiron won't be used. Because the bad guys of Deviant look like they're going to be like a crunchier, antagonistic version of Mummy's cults, where you build them as a Storyteller depending on what your players have designed as their characters, rather than endless lists of two-page splats that will take up half the book and still not be comprehensive enough. We'll probably still have lots of examples, and Cheiron might be one of those, but time will tell.

>>44707914

Mage's theme is about fucking up - going into something and then facing the consequences. I preferred the carrot to the stick in terms of mechanical incentives to action, and the stick rather than the carrot when it comes to the fallout.

So, for example, werewolves get fucked up if they *don't* hunt, but get rewarded if they do. Mages get rewarded for going to seek Mysteries, and then get fucked up when they succeed.

>>44707956
>Mages get rewarded for going to seek Mysteries, and then get fucked up when they succeed.

How do mages get fucked up by discovering or solving mysteries? Don't they become more powerful?

>>44707991
Wisdom. Paradox.

>>44705096
Demon has some crossover with Mage, specifically "having peered behind the curtain." But not really any with Changeling. Deviant sounds like it will be a lot like Changeling, but with a more freeform concept of what a Deviant is, like Demon has, and having the players be constantly hunted, like both Changeling and Demon. That's the problem with constantly adding more Splats, it's akin to class bloat in Pathfinder, just not as egregious.

>>44708000
Hey Dave, have you ever read a little known series called the Dresden Files before? If so, how much has it influenced you when writing for Mage? I think Harry seems like your standard Mage character.

>>44708065

You know, it's kinda funny. Dresden is an anomaly for in-universe mages.

When it talks about most of the other mages about it's talking about people who (Mostly) have pretty stable lives and do stuff like go back to uni every few decades for something interesting education-wise.

>>44708065
He's said before that Harry Dresden is a pretty good example of a high-Gnosis, low-Wisdom 2e Mage (specifically an Obrimos, in Dresden's case.

Also as a demonstrative example of why "low Wisdom" does not necessarily mean "bad person". (John Constantine was his example of why "high Wisdom" doesn't necessarily mean "good person" either.)

>>44708065
I have, up to... Uh... I think I'm up to the latest one.

And.. Not really? I'm much more influenced by Hellblazer and the Invisibles.

Harry's a good example of a well meaning low Wisdom mage, though. Although the universe he lives in doesn't work like the CofD.

>>44708000

Seeking and solving mysteries is not inherently connected to poor or impulsive use of magic (Wisdom) or extending you magical reach beyond your grasp.

>>44708080
>Constantine
Constantine is not high Wisdom. He's sold his soul to like, 4 different Demon Princes now?

He also found out how to escape Heaven, Hell, and everything between. He's basically a Mage who won at being a Mage.

>>44708065
>>44708086
>Dresden Files
>I have, up to... Uh... I think I'm up to the latest one.

You've probably caught-up with all the books. At the current rate, Mage 3e will be out before Peace Talks, the next scheduled book in the series.

>>44708127
To be fair, getting engaged, having a beloved pet die, and moving halfway across the US are all, individually, good excuses for book delays.

>>44707810
>My group really liked it
I had quite a lot of fun running round as Akmunhtep, laughing at people and occasionally kataring them.

I think that the campaign suffered a bit due to it being in a period where we had a lot of missed sessions.

Wouldn't mind going back to Mummy some day (though not at the expense of the current Exalted campaign which I think we're all enjoying a lot).

>>44708106
So? He's subtle, not moral.
Hence, high Wisdom.

>>44708086
So Dave, how would you do a modern Cross-splat game between Mages and Mummies? I know you can do it in Dark Eras but how would you do it in modern times?

>>44708152

True, but Butcher still released books during this time despite all his life events, just not for the DF.

I get the impression he's really tired of DF, but his other series are not nearly as popular or profitable, and DF pays the bills.

>>44708200
He said DF is almost over. Only gonna be 5 more books plus a 3 part apocalyptic series.

>>44708238
>"almost over"
>"only 8 more books"
Fantasy writers are insane.

>>44708238
>He said DF is almost over. Only gonna be 5 more books plus a 3 part apocalyptic series

"Almost" over is relative. 8 books is longer than most entire series by other authors.

David Bowie didn't die, he completed his Threshold Seeking and became an Archmage (of Space, obviously). Blackstar was his Quintessence.

This is now canon in all my games.

>>44708280
Niiiiice.

>>44706040
Only changeling and promethean treat their state as a curse.

>>44708680
Most Vampire Covenants see it as a curse, too. The Sanctified and Ordo Dracul in particular.

The Circle of the Crone are a bunch of heretical weirdos for suggesting that there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a vampire.

>>44708700
>2 out of 5
>most
Weird
Vampire the Masquerade views it asa curse
the Lancea Sanctum think that it's their second chance from god
Ordo just thinks it could be done better

>>44708758
"Most vampire covenants with an opinion on the matter", sorry.

Circle of the Crone = Sabbat?

>>44709001
They've definitely inherited some of the parts of the Sabbat, yeah. There's a reason learning their special Covenant perk thing permanently lowers your Humanity cap every time you get a new dot.

>>44709001
The Sabbat were split into Belial's Brood (raging destroyers), Lancea et Sanctum (Vampire church) and the Circle of the Crone (Weird, inhuman mysticism).
The Ordo Dracul is also The Tremere crossed with the Tzimisce. They don't have unbalanced blood magic any more. They have completely new ways to be the most broken guys in the game.

>>44708164

Wisdom's about understanding consequences, too. When Constantine did the aforementioned soul selling, he basically risked the entire world to save his ass, not really sure if it'd work, with the added caveat that if, for whatever reason, he died in the near future, the world would end. Given how often his life ends up at risk, I'd say that what he did would've been worth quite a few Wisdom rolls.

>>44709698

Oh, and addendum: In doing all this, John also massively unbalanced the hierarchy of Hell, causing it to go from a stable triumvirate to a dictatorship, leading to many deaths, including those of several of his friends.

I could go on with all the awful consequences that happened because John couldn't bring himself to quit smoking.

Going to run a nWoD oneshot for newbies.

ANy advice/ plot ideas?

Which designer would you like to return?
>>44709870
* Investigate who is covering up the mass-scale disappearance of livestock from surrounding areas and why.
* Something is poisoning the city water supply, and has been about 2 years after each renovation. Someone caught *something* on cam and auto-uploaded it to the shared Dropbox of one of the PCs and promptly disappeared later on.
*You're sent to investigate (read: ridicule) certain claims by the James Randi foundation. What happens when the claims turn out much less phony than you thought?
* Speaking of phones, it seems like a number of cellphone towers locations are notorious for 'caching' calls, causing the signals to sometimes arrive delayed or even before the event causing them happened. You gotta fix this; Nobody's dropping money into a complete overhaul of the systems in the region.
* Seems like the town's wishing well has lately stepped up its game. What happens when the PCs seek to cheese the system?
* A somewhat famous (in the scientific world) cave explorer recently hitched a ride home. That wouldn't be disturbing, but said ride was firefighter wagon sent to retrieve him from a cave he'd been reportedly stuck in for the last ten days. As far as anyone knows he considers the stories of his demise vastly exagerrated and has a point-by-point accurate alibi for each day, though the people corroborating his claims all seem 1) Very isolated and 2) Kind of strange.

Is it just me, or do Huntsmen almost seem like the Fetch of a True Fae? It is a spirit of Arcadia and Their personality is based upon the one who breathed life into it, much like a Fetch is given life by a fragment of a human soul and magic..

>>44710049
I just see it as a dedicated Actor.

>>44710049
what are you saying?

Is Onyx Path going to release a second edition of Immortals? If not that, are there any good second edition rules for playing a Purified Immortal?

>>44706428

As someone that struggles with actual PTSD following an actual abduction, I wanna thank you for that.], yo. I've only played promethean and a bit of werewolf, but I've run a game that had changelings, and it really struck a chord with me. When the new book comes out I'm excited to give it a try.

>>44705925
Too bad they didn't succeed with their Kickstarter. Though imo they overestimated the amount of people who would be interested - 100k would never happen

>>44706092
>>44706130
They are mostly leaning towards a monthly payment model. They can't really afford to go F2P, plus it will mean that they will have to have some items that can only be bought with real currency and they don't really want to influence the gameplay by allowing people to buy BFG 9000.

>>44706428
David, I'll be honest, I don't think you are necessarily a dick. You seem reasonable when on a chan. But you act like a completely different person when you are on Twitter. I remember when I was trying to have conversation with you last year about GamerGate. While you didn't block me (which is a feat considering how eager people are to censor those they whose opinions they don't like), you have not ignored my arguments and immediately after talking to me tweeted about the "evils" of GG.

What you say here in this post is reasonable and sound; what you say on Twitter is worrying because I am pretty sure you are one of those people who will fight people on the internet over the myth of wage gap. The amount of hate and passive-aggressiveness on your Twitter is, well, pretty bad. Don't have an eloquent closing for this.

>>44706848
Huh. Not sure we need this. Not being antagonistic or whatever, but I assumed that because folklore and fairytales are so heavily involved with the Wyrd, the "a changeling escaped by outwitting a fae like in a fairytale" would be quite common. Not sure we need a separate Seeming for that. Might be interesting I guess, will see how it goes