Could some people who are more familiar with the 40k setting settle a small dispute for me? Discounting possible variations in fighting style, tactics, etc., would this be a somewhat even fight? Not completely on par, but with each side having a reasonable chance of victory. They’re fighting over a fortress/light manufacturing planet with very variable topography.
>Attacking force
200 Astartes (including an entire 1st company)
1,250 Sororitas (basically one whole minor order)
3,000 Skitarii and other Mechanicum forces
4 Imperial Knights
16,000 Guardsmen (one infantry and one siege regiment)
1 Ordo Malleus Inquisitor+Retinue (“leads” the task force)
All of these include full artillery, vehicle, and naval support. I don’t know how many ships it would take to transport such a force, but I’m assuming it isn’t that many.
>Defending force
~1000 Chaos Space Marines
Over 20,000 Cultists
A small amount of daemons (will probably increase over time)
These guys are less organized and well-equipped, but they also have the home field advantage, ground defenses, and experience working together, unlike the Imperium force. The planetary guns they’ve got are dangerous enough that the Imperial ships can’t stay over the important part of the planet for more than a few minutes at a time without risking destruction. So this is going to be a land war, essentially.
>>44616864
Fluffwise Chaos would easily win that.
>>44616864
>>44617009
if they got the daemons out there's a god chance there's an entrance to the warp opens which means the imperium's going to need to mobilize a lot more forces space marines might be able to handle the chaos mariens and demons but the other chaos forces will be causing havoc all over the planet that the guard and sororitas will need to take on
>>44616864
Fluff-wise or rules-wise ?
For me it all depends on the Skitarii, since they go from "barely augmented guardsmen" to "terminator in anything but name, but with additional weaponry on mechadendrites"
>>44617119
Could you run that by me again?
>>44617153
Fluffwise. And please don't say anything like "Depends who the protagonist/writer is."
>guardsmen are always grimdark meatshields with artillery
>no one ever writes about armor
I just want my desert rats IN SPACE
>>44617822
Even infantry regiments usually have some armor, anon.
>>44617338
Then name the Skitarii. As the other anon said, "Skitarii" range from anything besides a guardsmen with minor augmentation to giant vat-grown cyborgs the size of a space marine with an assault cannon for an arm with his only remaining organ, the brain, held in a tungsten shell. They vary a LOT.
>>44616864
Frankly, it depends on how well equipped the cultists are, and what kind of Skitarii/Mechanicum forces there are. I would give it to the Imperium unless the Daemon Summoning goes well. Are we talking Codex:Skitarii guys with cancer guns and metal skeletons, Kataphron Servitors and high-level Mechanicum gear, or Guardsmen with augmetics? Do they have Cybernetica support?
>>44617911
Also it depends on the Legion. Guys like the World Eaters would get fucked over, but the Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, and Iron Warriors would fuck some shit up. Iron Warriors especially, who would probably blow away the Knights with dakka.
>>44617153
>>44617911
I don't know, but it would probably be mostly limited to the Skitarii you get in the army book plus a lot of grunts. But yes, they brought some Cybernetica along too.
>>44617970
>Grunts
>Codex Skitarii
>Grunts
Well good-bye Chaos unless it's the Iron Warriors or Word Bearers.
>>44617882
I want demon fucking shits to be blown apart by vanquishers.
I want bloodthirsters and bloodletters to be ripped apart by hydra shells.
I fucking want panzer commander in space
every guard story ever is about ebin spec ops troops that can 360 noscope marines or grimderp stalingrad.
Why doesn't GW allow some hack to write a panzer commander in space?
>>44617985
Codex Skitarii PLUS grunts. Alongside them.
>>44616864
Hmm...seems to me the attacking force has the advantage in numbers overall. The guardsmen and Skitarii compared to the cultists is basically a wash, meaning it mostly comes down to the Marines, Sisters, and Knights against the Chaos Marines and Daemons. Overall, I think the loyalists have a slight edge there just from extra bodies, but the fact that the Chaos forces are on the defensive with potential reinforcements shifts things in their favor.
It's a decent matchup, all things considered.
>>44618054
A thousand or so sisters and 4 knights does not even come close to matching 800 marines.
>>44618343
Those 800 marines are 60% the numbers of a similarly equipped and skilled force. Sisters aren't quite on Marine level, but it's certainly not as large of a gap as you're implying.
>>44618542
1 marine = 3 sisters on a good day
Naval support tips it in favor of imperials; if chaos doesn't have a answer to a ship in space doesn't matter imp win; plus orbital strikes on Def positions would rek havoc
>>44618747
>The planetary guns they’ve got are dangerous enough that the Imperial ships can’t stay over the important part of the planet for more than a few minutes at a time without risking destruction. So this is going to be a land war, essentially.
>>44618812
Unless those land guns Gen fucked in the tip of the spear what do you think 200 marines have been sent for? 100 teleporting in 100 in droppods. First priority would be tge destruction of those guns ( and if you say that they are not possible to remove then you have already de idea the out come)
>>44618628
Are sisters really that ungood? I can't recall reading about them too much, but I thought they got similar reverence. Maybe less. I mean, double whatever guns seems like a good deal to me, but visibly useless armour, yeesh.
What are they on a bad day?
>>44618812
>>44618877
Remember that 100 of those marines are from a First Company, so there are going to be loyalist terminators. Those planetary guns will almost assuredly get taken out when they teleport in.
>>44618877
What if the guns are hidden, in the middle of a huge fortress of Chaos marines, or located thousands of miles apart?
that depends... is the first company...THE DEATHWING?!
>>44619086
They tend to fail pretty hard in fluff, but on a battle of this scale just having twice the number of bodies and guns of similar quality would reasonably make up for the difference on the individual level.
>>44618001
They did, read Gunheads.
Loyalists are fucked. That's 800 CSM too many,
All the rest, save for the Knights, is just cannon fodder.
t. loyalist
>>44616864
Would chaos have terminators? Either way, 1000 space marines is a lot of space marines, chaotic or otherwise. Fluff wise my money would be on chaos
>nobody here mentioning how most guardsmen outclass most cultists by a good deal
>>44619228
A force of a thousand CSM would likely have terminators, obliterators, or both. They'll probably also have chaos dreadnoughts which are particularly damaging to enemy morale because they're NUTS, and probably some possessed as well.
The Inquisitor, knights, guardsmen, Sisters, and cultists are all boned. It really comes down to the Loyalists and the AdMech vs. Assorted CSM and daemons.
>>44619134
That is what teleportation is for.
>>44616864
>These guys are less organized and well-equipped, but they also have the home field advantage, ground defenses, and experience working together, unlike the Imperium force.
Well that makes things a whole lot easier. And it's not like the inquisitor is just going to let his troops focus on anything other than fighting anyway.
>>44619308
This is also true.
>>44618054
i wonder if the sisters might be more usefull fighting the cultists
isent fighting cultists there specility.
>>44619308
that is a good point
cultists are nothing but rabble the guard is made of the best of each planetery defense force.
a guardsman would be worth at least 5 cultists i would think that depending on the planet a pdf trooper would be 2 cultists to so the best of that is going to be far above them.
>>44619447
Teleportation is REALLY risky around Chaos. If their sorcerers are doing their job correctly, the Termies are safer riding up in Land Raiders than jumping through the warp.
I'm assuming a significant number of the "over 20,000 cultists" are probably going to be sacrificing themselves or civilians to open daemon portals. The actual number and type of daemons summoned are going to make a big difference. Sisters are not Grey Knights. If they're Tzeentchian daemons, the Sisters are probably alright. If they're Bloodletters or anything Nurgle-related, they probably won't be much help at all. If they can manage to summon a Greater Daemon or three, it could decisively turn the tide towards Chaos.
CSM wins.
A (chaos) space marine is worth 20 of anything else.
>>44619487
I would think it varies
most cultists would be on par with a conscript guard... cowardly, untrained, but somehow even worse equipped. Useless except as fodder.
Other cultists train. They may dress and act like space hobos, but like real life hobos they are dangerous in a knife fight. This is why in the rules cultists have the same BS and WS as guardsmen.
>>44619134
This is true then it becomes a battle of attrition as pretty much all 40k is based. The real question is; what is the population density of the planet to begin with and how long was the warp gate open for. Citizens are going to be slaughtered in mass as soon as that shit gets out.
Main factor is who has the drop on who?
Was this a raid on Civiees? And the last remnants are now the survivors of the chaos space marines rampage that tore a whole in reality thus summoning the =][=. Are these grey knights? And how many of those marines are librarians?
>>44619539
>a greater daemon or 3 will turn the tide
i think i've become rather jaded, but are greater daemons that big of a threat? i feel weird asking this since i play chaos daemons
>>44619908
>Main factor is who has the drop on who?
The Imperials have the element of surprise, but think that there are only a few squads of CSM as opposed to hundreds.
>>44620015
GDs absolutely wreck face in the fluff. On the tabletop they're either stupidly hard and prohibitively expensive to summon (CSM) or just overcosted and bad (Daemons). This was primarily a fluff question, though, I think.
>>44620015
In fluff they're a reasonable threat to an entire company of marines
>>44616864
I think it's close enough to work for whatever you're trying to do. The cultists are nearly useless except in holding up the guardsmen who aren't manning vehicles or heavy weapons. The sum of the astartes, sororitas, and skitarii can take on at least half of the chaos space marines, possibly more. But they have knights and tanks on their side.
>>44620282
Real quesion is if you summoned 3 would chaos start fighting amongst it self as all three tried to take the planet in their gods specific favor and hence their own domain.
>>44620361
I agree anon it's a good enough scenario that he could do anything with it, all depends on out side elements that haven't been decided.
>>44620374
maybe not since there are mortals nearby. bloodthrister would head for the marines for the best fight at least.
>>44617338
Depends who the protagonist writer is the actually answer though.
In general terms marines trump all and chaos bringing more means they win.
But in general terms if the loyalist were space wolves then the chaos marines would be stomped out like cigarette. Space wolves are the most wanked faction of all the factions. Rules don't apply.
>>44618628
It depends on the situation. At range, that's one skilled bolter vs. three somewhat less skilled bolters; not exactly a decided contest.
>>44616864
You're missing a lot of variables.
But assuming they've been there a bit, chaos wins. They're defending, they know the area and have probably prepped+ fortified+ are sacrificing cultists for warpy demonic shit to happen. It's a trap, they were probably prepping for a larger loyalist force as well.
>>44620896
Hard; time is what chaos really needs to win.
It depends what the win scenario is. If it's unforgiven going in for a fallen or two in amount the 1000 csm then the lose of the rest of the strike force is a win scenario to only take a few csm alive.
>>44616864
This depends on multiple factors.
In case of Imperial Forces, it's what kind of Space Marine Chapter we're talking here about. What Sororitas Coven we're talking about. What Skitarii force we're talking about, what Imperial Knight House we're talking about, from what planets do the IG regiments come from, and finally what Inquisitor from which Ordo is leading the operation. Not to mention what kind of equipment they are taking for the job for their infantry since you said they have the appropriate vehicles.
In case of Chaos, it depends on the Warband itself (aka: equipment, tactics, and if they are Chaos Undivided or do they worship a particular Chaos God). This also goes to the daemons in question. If Chaos Undivided, then the Warband will have a large selection to pick from. If they're worshiping a particular Chaos God, then they'll be limited to the daemons that serve the one they worship. Not to mention that the Warband may have marine vehicles like Predators, IG vehicles and probably daemon engines.
>>44620787
Sisters are as good a shot as a marine and still bloody tough (If not quite as good)
It's melee where they fall down.
Marines vs Sisters is really a case of 'if the SOB can hold the marines at a distance, they've got it. If the marines can maneuver to bring superior strength and melee skill to bear, the SOB lose'
>>44620426
Not to mention, they have the single worst primarch.
>>44619086
SOB armour isn't quite as good as marine armour but it's still one of the best pieces of armour in the galaxy. Same with the bolters.
SOB are a terrifying force for anything mortal, if less generalist than Marines.
