Hey all, I know that RPGs are supposed to be about who you are and not what you are, but I think that in DnD (or at least AD&D 2.0 which I play) the differences between races are almost non-existent. I actually pulled this graph out of my anus, but I think it is a relatively accurate representation of upper body strength in human males and females. Aside from the weakest men and strongest women, men are always stronger than women. If there were several different races, ranging form the bulky half-orcs to the smaller halflings and gnomes, imagine what these graphs would look like for things like strength, constitution, intelligence, dexterity.... etc.
Has any official or homebrew system applied sci-fi racial stats to an otherwise fantasy game? It might seem autistic, but it always bugged me that you could have a halfling with more strength than a human.
>>44511689
I'm going to need a source for that chart. Also, actual percentages on the left side, and some objective measure of upper body strength along the bottom.
You know, so the chart actually demonstrates whatever your ignorant point actually is.
While I'm waiting, here's a troll.
>>44512252
>I'm going to need a source for that chart.
OP told us that it came from his ass.
a sedentary woman is about the same strength as a sedentary man
once you get into actual strength training or sports, THEN there will be a large disparity, where a woman who's trained 2 years will be about the same as a guy who's trained 6 months.
but obviously this is a troll thread because your chart is implying the strongest women in the world can't outlift the average male
>>44512268
It's just OP bumping his own thread, anon.
>>44512433
>a sedentary woman is about the same strength as a sedentary man
lol no
Updated with Y axis, as if it mattered you fucking 'spergs.
>>44511689
Since asses are credible sources for this thread, allow me to present my counterpoint.
>>44513221
There is no way that is true.
>>44511689
>It might seem autistic
it is.
>>44513221
Frequency of what?
>>44514467
cycles per second
>>44511689
>reality
>Men and women have physical differences, on average men are stronger than women
>what /vermin believe
>women are always weaker than men
>>44514467
The number or percent of the population that has the value on the x axis. The majority is found at the center, and very few are found at the extremes.
>>44514277
>source, US soldiers in the 1982
What was the sample size? 100 males to 2 females?
>>44514214
I'd say it's somewhat more probable than OP's graph. I'm going to ignore >>44514277 here, because soldiers are terrible representations of the general population. I will agree, however, that it's probably a decent approximation of potential upper body strength - that is, if each person's data point is not their actual upper body strength, but the maximum upper body strength they could achieve through exercise and training. That's going to remove the huge amount of variance that lifestyle contributes. Since the same ability scores have to apply to Wizards and Fighters, though, we can't abstract out that variance when we're discussing the subject like the military can when they're discussing recruitment.
That said, >>44514277 also only describes lifting capacity, which is not the only measure of the general concept of "upper body strength". A good index will also include things like endurance, multiple types of lift (benching, dead lifting, etc), the force delivered through punches or other swift motions, and so on. But a single lift measurement is still better data than no data.
The average woman has 60% the upper body strength of the average man approximately, is less durable, and weaker in the lower body as well [but not as much as the upper body].
In real life -4 STR is not a meme, its the evolutionary reality. However, in a high fantasy game, no such rule should apply, because the characters are all superhuman. Which is why a hobbit can be stronger then a man, and why OP is retarded. Unless he's going to make Halflings, who are like 2 or 3 feet tall, as weak as toddlers, they are more powerful then their appearance suggests and run on magical physics fucking.
>>44515052
>The average woman has 60% the upper body strength of the average man approximately, is less durable, and weaker in the lower body as well [but not as much as the upper body].
Is that median or mean? I'm almost positive the distribution is going to be skewed, and so they're not going to be the same. Of course, it also depends on culture - are we talking modern American, medieval Europe, or South American tribal? Or the human race in general?
>>44515129
If you are nitpicking over culture and the difference between mean or median you must be pushing a political agenda. Its not some well-kept secret only top scientists have access to - the fact that men are much stronger on average than women are.
The way you people act I bet there are people who think sexual dimorphism is a result of gender conditioning.
>We have no idea how averages work: the thread
>>44515129
>>44515176
This. For the record, its the mean, but why does that matter? Its genetics, it doesn't matter what culture you go to. If anything, as you go to more primitive cultures the gap gets wider due to gender roles requiring more physically active men
>>44514277
>>44513221
>>44512667
>>44511689
I've learned something very important today.
I have no idea how to read charts.
>>44515176
No, actually, I agree that men are in general significantly stronger than women (note: I am using "significantly" in the statistical sense). I'm not trying to push an agenda here, but what I am trying to do is make sure shit gets attributed to its proper causes. Quit projecting, man.
My main gripe is with people who start with actual facts (men are, in general, stronger than women), go on to questionable conclusions (the difference is both large and due primarily to biological differences), and use that to justify stupid actions (men should have a Str bonus relative to women, if not in character creation then in most NPCs - not that you were going there, but OP probably was).
So, no, I at least don't think sexual dimorphism is entirely a result of gender conditioning, but I do think there's a contribution. Mostly through men being encouraged to pursue activities that build strength - not that there's any particular conspiracy, but that people tend to pursue things they're better at, so a natural tendency to be stronger and have a higher strength cap will be amplified by behavior.
Nothing's as simple as people who have a political agenda in this wants it to be, which is why it's so important to get your facts straight. That's all I'm after, here.
In any setting in which half-breeds are possible across species lines, genetics is so far out the window that it's coming in the back door. It's not worth getting hung up on physiological differences between the potential of different genders, precisely because there are so many far stupider things going on.
Not to mention that you can learn to split the atom with your brain by reading books. Not that hard to imagine that strength training would allow you to break through any limitations imposed by your body and just tap into raw STRENGTH. And there's no reason that one's ability to do so would be hindered by gender.
>>44515370
>Mostly through men being encouraged to pursue activities that build strength - not that there's any particular conspiracy, but that people tend to pursue things they're better at, so a natural tendency to be stronger and have a higher strength cap will be amplified by behavior.
Oh, I should mention. I don't have a goddamn problem with this. That's how things work out, and I'm not batshit enough to say we need to fundamentally overhaul human nature so that we select our desires and goals completely at random, or to genetically engineer people to be functionally identical, or any other of the innumerable insane policies you'd need to make that stop being the case.
Quick question for the D&D crowd:
Does your group give women a +4 (or 2* +2) bonus in another stat(s) to compensate for the -4 STR?
>>44515623
charisma
>>44515651
That's dumb. Charisma makes no sense, especially when the people espousing this rule tend towards the 'women are evil' crowd.
Slight aptitude towards social situations would tend towards wisdom, however. Possibly dexterity to represent the smaller body and nimble fingers.
It's also totally heteronormative bro, and contributes towards a male gaze in GMing.
>>44514566
2 females who do regular physical exercise compared to millions who buy shoes. Internet has evened the graph, probably.
>>44515311
Each presents a distribution. The horizontal axis is a measure of strength, while the vertical axis is a measure of how frequent a given strength score is. To read it, you find a given strength score on the horizontal axis, and find the point on your curve of interest above that score. That point's height represents how likely that score is to appear. Higher means more likely.
Each chart has two curves, one for men and one for women, plotted on the same axes for easy comparison. Although all but >>44514277
omitted units, on account of being pulled out of various asses, you can still get facts like "Men will generally score higher" because their curve is always above women's to the right - that is, for a higher score, the likelihood of a man having that score is higher than the likelihood of a woman.
>>44514277 is kind of screwy, though - labeling the Y axis with percentile doesn't make any goddamn sense with the curves it has, but explaining why that is would require explaining what percentiles are. Long story short, both curves should only ever increase, because it doesn't make sense to have two different scores marking the same percentile.
>>44515906
HOLY FUCK GO BACK TO YOUR FIRST YEAR SOCIOLOGY COURSE
>>44514214
You object to that one, but not OP's, where the strongest woman in the world is significantly weaker than the average male? Hell, judging from the bell curve, I'd say she's weaker than about 2/3 of males.
>>44515311
American education, everyone.
>>44516724
Sounds right.
>>44515623
I'm playing D&D and i never had a DM give women -4 str.
Not only that, but -4 is a retardedly huge penalty in the first place, especually when the biggest racial difference (among core races and not homebrewed retardation) is + or - 2.
>>44516852
Yep. Because the average guy can totally bench over 200 kg.
>>44511689
that graph is insane
in fact now that i look at it it doesn't even make sense but from how i first saw it its acting like woman are to weak to do fucking anything
>>44512667
so the upper bound of female strength is less then average male strength
thats an extraordinary claim that will require considerable evidence
>>44514214
definitely closer then ops though
>>44514277
but the lines arent marked its obvious to us but what if some alien came and looked at it they would have no way in hell of telling which gender had better lifting capactity
>>44511689
>the strongest woman in the entire world is weaker than the vast majority of men
>the weakest man in the world is stronger than the vast majority of women
>assuming identical distribution of upper body strength across both genders
>no source, lacks an axis
This is so bad it's actually hilarious.
Here, I made something for you. It's a Venn diagram. The blue circle means OP, and the red circle means Faggot.
Also:
>it always bugged me that you could have a halfling with more strength than a human
Yeah, because fantasy, choice of build and unorthodox stats are all horriblebadwrongfun.
>>44511689
Fuck off, retard.
>>44511689
Don't forget that females are also more intelligent than males. this should be represented in the game too.
Since these curves have a normal, bell-shaped distribution, we can infer that 90% of all persons contained within the graph are within 2 standard deviations of the mean. This means that contained within the tails of the graph exist the remaining 10% of individuals, with 5% in either tail.
Given the above, the claim that this graph is making is as follows: The strongest 5% of all women are only stronger than the weakest 5% of all men.
>>44518428
I think when it comes to intelligence, it's more like men have a wider dispersal (more idiots, but also more geniuses) whereas women have a concentration of average intellects.
>>44518489
This is because women prefer communication rituals that foster consensus and collectivism, and trend towards forming communal relationships.
This has the net effect of raising the average intelligence of women due to the sharing of ideas, but dulls the independent risk-taking that is generally required for innovative and exploratory thought.
>>44518489
but women's average is higher, meaning they are more intelligent than men.
>>44518489
No, women have equal variance on standardized IQ test but score higher. They are also vastly less likely to commit violent crimes and in general more mentally stable.
>>44518549
That's not how statistics work. It means that for any given set of one man and one woman, the odds are slightly in favor of the woman being the more intelligent one. You cannot make any well-founded assumptions about a given individual from statistics like these.
>>44518586
Replace the word "women" with "whites" and "men" with "blacks" and you've made no less of a true statement, but you are now the devil and will be ostracized by society.
>>44518586
>score higher
By a fraction of a point, and it varies by nation. In Australia, for instance, women scored a fraction of a point lower than men. Regardless, it's a fraction of a point difference either way.
>vastly less likely to commit violent crimes
Men make up ~81% of convicted criminals, while women make up ~19%. Though this is the case, when you compare the number of men who are criminals vs men who are not criminals, the number is a fraction of a percent.
>generally more mentally stable
Not sure what statistic this is based on.
You can boil down nearly any non-physical disparity between men and women to "Men are more likely to take risks than women." Outside of physical build, that is pretty much the underlying difference behind the majority of socioeconomic differences between the sexes.
>>44518544
thats an interesting theory.
>>44518644
not really theres no real evidence for considerable intelligence differences between ethnicitys that isent probably just culture and upbringing
dont blame the niggers blame the gheto
although i suppose the same can be said of how females act compared to males.
>>44518393
>it always bugged me that you could have a halfling with more strength than a human
>Yeah, because fantasy, choice of build and unorthodox stats are all horriblebadwrongfun.
Well, Chimpanzees are 1.2 m tall and stronger than any human, so it doesn't seem completely unreasonable.
>>44514277
Aww it looks like they're dancing!
>>44511689
That chart's not quite right. Here's a more accurate version. Male variety is greater than female in almost all metrics, and strength is a great metric.
>>44519833
I got rushed and forgot to post the image
>>44511689
>Hey all, I know that RPGs are supposed to be about who you are and not what you are
Bullshit. RPGs are about your numbers going up and the enemy's numbers going down.
You're playing it wrong if you're playing for the story.
>>44515623
I played with afemaleDM who gave female PCs -2 str and +2 int. And the opposite for male PCs. I'm pretty sure a lot of old school computer rpgs used to do that too.
>>44514277
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting
>>44519868
Does no one in this entire thread actually know how graphs work?
>>44511689
>I pulled this chart out of my ass
>it's totally accurate
>>44518786
A lot of people cite the idea that the test-giver sets the rules for "intelligence"- aka "white people made the test, so it isn't a fair metric for non-white people", as bullshit as that is.
You can blame culture as much as you want, but the trend of willful ignorance and group think in certain groups is astounding, in all the worst ways.
>>44521367
culture does affect it. Different cultures value different things. Some puzzles might be easier in some cultures than others
>>44512433
>sedentary woman is the same as a sedentary man
Beeeep
Wrong, testosterone has such great impact that people who roid gain muscle without even exercising.
The difference between a man and a woman is the difference between a nattybrah and a roider.
And if you go to a gym with a manlet and a girl, both with similar fitness levels, you'll see the guy not only starts at higher weights but he'll improve faster. Assuming he is hormonally balanced and not suffering of hypogonadism.
>>44521367
You want to know hat it tests most of all? Memory. You have a faulty memory, you will automatically lower the test result by about a third.
>>44515370
No dude, female hyenas are bigger than male hyenaa because of testosterone, hyenas don't weightlift. Nobody questions that female hyenas are bigger because of dimorphism.
Why is it so hard for people to accept humans are animals and bound to sinilar rules?
>>44521960
because the difference in testosterone in male or female blood plasma is measured in boku no picomoles.
>>44521960
What do hyenas have to do with anything? Did you miss the part where I said there is a natural tendency for men to be stronger and have a higher strength cap? Because that's certainly true. But "Testosterone influences strength" doesn't rule out "Behavior influences strength", you fucking moron. They aren't mutually exclusive, and only a pants-on-arms retarded fool trying to push a political agenda one way or the other will say that only one of those statements is true. That's my goddamn point.
>>44515052
>However, in a high fantasy game, no such rule should apply
go fuck yourself you beta cuck
>>44515623
-4STR -4INT
>>44515906
>totally heteronormative bro, and contributes towards a male gaze in GMing.
kill
your
self
just end it now you parasitic little cuck
>>44522720
A normal healthy male will have ten times the amount of testosterone of a woman, AT LEAST ten times.
The average young man has about 690 ng/dL while the average young woman will have about 40 ng/dL.
Notice it's per dL, as well.
So yes, that is quite a difference, if you don't understand that even small amounts make a ton of difference when it comes to hormones then you are one retarded motherfucker.
>>44523776
>cuck
You people keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
>>44523776
>>44523807
>cuck
