Warhammer Fantasy Role Play General thread, open for all discussion of the Warhammer setting and how it relates to the roleplaying games.
Let's keep it civil. Remember - when it comes to your own games, the right answer is whatever works best for you and your group.
>Previous threads
>>44298674
>>44322869
>>44345924
>>44404352
>>44433485
>I don't have the books for 2nd Ed.
http://khorne.ru/2nd/wfrp_web/
>How does career advancement actually work in 2nd edition?
http://i.imgur.com/8qoQOUl.png
http://i.imgur.com/dOOfPa2.png
http://i.imgur.com/jJN6PT9.jpg
>Maps of the old world?
http://i.imgur.com/COthNjY.jpg
http://www.gitzmansgallery.com/shdmotwow.html
>Good sites for extra resources?
http://www.kalevalahammer.com/p/page4.html
http://www.liberfanatica.net/
http://www.madalfred.com/
http://forum.strike-to-stun.net/
http://www.windsofchaos.com/
>I don't know much about Warhammer, how can I get started?
Have a read of this:
http://www.snotling.org/data/_uploaded/media/WFRP_Information_Booklet.pdf
Outstanding questions:
>When is the best time period to use for the WFRP setting?
>Runesmiths - Unbalanced, or as good as Wizards?
>What is a Skaven? A miserable little pile of warpdroppings.
>Good and Evil - Objective or Subjective. Which suits WFRP better?
>44466014
>In WHFRP1 you can become a rune master thing. It's illegal, though.
>You can totally become a human runesmith except you can't.
>Again what
What he means is - in 1ed WFRP, the released Dwarfs: Stone and Steel. In this supplement they went in depth in the Runesmithing business.
It was revealed that Runesmithing is SRS BIZNES. Not something to be shared, shown or revealed to outsiders. Except a human figured it out.
This human then went on to make his own brand of shoddy runes. Wherever these runes pop up, or rumours of a non-dwarfen runesmith are heard, the dwarfs come crashing down like an anvil.
So you CAN play as a human runesmith - but dwarfs will actively hunt you down.
tl;dr - He meant illegal in the setting, not the system.
>>44469564
>>Good and Evil - Objective or Subjective. Which suits WFRP better?
They are subjective, but chaos is objectively evil, such is the result of the modern, corrupted state of the warp.
>When is the best time period to use for the WFRP setting?
Post-StormO'Chaos, as per default. It is a very logical place to start, since the post-war Old World presents ideal adventure-readiness: the forces of Chaos are scattered, and that means monsters to kill and villages to save but in numbers that require small parties rather than large armies.
>Runesmiths - Unbalanced, or as good as Wizards?
Wizards kind of suck, I would say runesmiths are better.
>Good and Evil - Objective or Subjective. Which suits WFRP better?
In Warhammer, everybody is evil.
>>44462121
Anon is talking about Lurk Snitchtongue in...Beastslayer, maybe? Where he's been captured and made a slave in Moulder and leads the slaves in a revolt to free them from the tyranny of their masters.
Fails, though.
Also - >Last time someone cited something from the G&F series it turned out to be a complete fabrication. Doubtful it's going be any different now.
Is a pretty condescending response to an offer of evidence.
As for the good/evil argument on daemons/beastmen/skaven - they're just following their base instincts/social norms. Daemons are literally incapable of doing anything but being what they are - they lack choice. Skaven and Beastmen are raised in a society that glorifies the destruction of mankind.
They are certainly all subjectively evil from the standpoint of most of the races in Fantasy, but it's not like all of them go 'Oh, I'ma evil rat, evil rat, evil rat'.
Also - I don't see how a Skaven Breeder is supposed to be a special snowflake. It's made clear in the Skaven sources that they are made incapable of violence or aggression as part of their conditioning.
>>44461422
>So when I do evil things, realize I am evil and like it am not evil? What the fuck are you smoking?
No, you are mentally unbalanced.
Let's go to an extreme:
You kill babies.
You like killing babies.
This is not a normal mental framework. Clearly you are unbalance/unhinged. Good and evil doesn't apply because you are literally brain damaged. It is fair to say that such a person is subjectively evil, but it's also fair to say that they mustn't be in entire control of who they are.
Or, let's look at it on a smaller scale:
You steal things.
You like stealing things, even though it is wrong.
You are either a kleptomaniac, or you have an internal justification for your actions.
No one is evil for the sake of being evil.
>>44469745
>They are subjective
>Chaos is objectively evil
So are you saying that Chaos views Chaos as evil?
>>44469564
>>When is the best time period to use for the WFRP setting?
If I'm starting a campaign, I like to set it just before the Storm of Chaos. Just enough time to play through one or two small-ish adventures before the Storm comes down on their heads, so they get to experience it first hand and see the aftermath.
In my experience, it's made the storm feel a bit more visceral. Just little things like players forming a connection with people in a village and then returning after the war to find it just gone.
>>44469924
Yes, chaotics fall in 3 categories:
The ones that do not know what good is.
The ones that can't know what good is.
The ones who don't care about good.
The first type comprises the usual marauders, men who live this life because it's what they were born into, the concepts of raping, pillaging and murdering are not reflected upon, they are simply done because it's what the situation brings them to do, they do not do it because they think it is good, but because it benefits them, there's no moral decision behind at best.
The second type sees mostly mindless beasts such as monsters and spawns, but also daemons and even beastmen and corrupted individuals to some extent; they do evil because it's their nature.
The third type is the rarest and has your average depiction of edgelords.
There's no instance of chaotic who follows chaos because it is seen as good, sometimes it may be seen as the truthehehe sure, but never as something morally good.
>>44470472
>never as something morally good.
Except the Norse.
You're making the assumption that everyone is using the same moral framework as you. The Norse see the Chaos Gods are beings that actually listen to them and reward their faith in a positive manner. To them, and a lot of other Chaos worshippers, they are doing the right thing.
Slaaneshi worshipers seek experience because it's something they crave. Nurgle worshipers seek succor from the suffering of disease. Khorne worshipers....are Khorne worshipers. Those fuckers are just nuts. Tzeentch worshipers seek a greater game.
None of these people don't know/care/can't know about good. They perceive what they are doing as the right thing due to their circumstance.
Chaos is just the antagonist of the Warhammer setting. They aren't objectively evil in every instance - Papa Nurgle and the Knights of Malal come to mind here - they are just the enemy of pretty much everyone of the setting.
But I doubt very much that all Chaos views all Chaos as evil.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with your interpretation. Do you often play WFRP or GM it?
>>44469564
>>Good and Evil - Objective or Subjective. Which suits WFRP better?
Subjective is the only way to play it. I mean, if you go objectively evil then how the fuck are you supposed to play Skaven/Chaos Worshipper campaigns? You're basically crippling your options for motivations.
>>44470847
>Playing Skaven/Chaos Worshippers
>Not evil
How the fuck is that supposed to work? Are you seriously trying to pull an Anakin with that "From my perspective, the Empire is evil!" bullshit?
Playing Chaos/Skaven/what the fuck ever is the equivalent of playing an All Evil campaign in D&D.
>>44470847
>>44471439
Also, why the fuck would it matter if what you're playing is objectively evil? It's WFRP, it's misery and shit all the way anyway. Trying to claim that your murderous Chaos cultists are not evil strikes me as not being ready to actually play a Chaos campaign.
>>44469901
>You kill babies.
>You like killing babies.
>This is not a normal mental framework. Clearly you are unbalance/unhinged. Good and evil doesn't apply because you are literally brain damaged. It is fair to say that such a person is subjectively evil, but it's also fair to say that they mustn't be in entire control of who they are.
This opens up an entirely different can of worms unrelated to WFRP, but does that distinction matter? If a psychologist can sit down and map out, "Oh, he's got sociopathic tendencies brought on by certain defects in his genes and aggravated by mistreatment from his mother in infancy, blah blah blah." All this must be true, because you must be mentally defective, because a sane person doesn't eat babies. You eat babies, therefore you have a mental defect that we are going to explain as the cause of your failings.
You're still the guy who's eating babies, who is knowingly committing a terrible sin regardless of your motivations. Reductionism inevitably leads to people blaming splashes of chemicals instead of taking responsibility for their actions.
>>44471519
This. You're going to be stabbing each other in the back and literally feeding souls to dark entities in exchange for personal power. Playing the 'hue hue moral framework' card in that situation is some serious bullshit, and far from crippling your motivational options you are exploring an entirely different and darker set. Trying to justify everything is entirely misunderstanding the point of a Skaven game.
>>44472322
But anon, surely a murderer must be insane, because a sane person wouldn't commit a heinous crime like that! Therefore, murder isn't evil, only the product of an illness! And on that note, sociopaths who manipulate and abuse people are also simply victims of their illnesses!
Yeah, that logic is bullshit and quickly goes all the way over the edge.
>>44471439
Anakin did nothing wrong, man. The younglings were the seed of new corruption. Killing children was just because he considered it to be just.
That's how good and evil works, right?
>>44471439
>How the fuck is that supposed to work?
>murderous Chaos cultists are not evil
No - the point is these guys wouldn't view themselves as evil. The Skaven are doing their ratty business. Chaos Cultists have their motivations for doing what they're doing.
No-one is just being evil for the lulz. They have motivations and drives. That's the point - from the perspective of a standard WFRP game, these guys are evil.
But from the perspective of the Skaven/Cultists, the base-line Imperials are evil.
That's the point of subjective morality. What is good/evil depends on your frame of reference. For most WFRP players, that frame of reference is Empire Standard. But for some it's Dwarf, or Elf or Halfling standard. They're mostly the same, but with a few differences.
But if you had played the game only as Warriors of Chaos or Clan Rats, your characters would have a different view on what evil is.
That's been the entire point of the discussion on the nature of subjective good/evil.
>>44472322
>Reductionism inevitably leads to people blaming splashes of chemicals instead of taking responsibility for their actions.
This is true, but it's kind of the point of the debate. We'll all look at a baby-eater as evil. Because...he's a baby-eater.
The baby-eater would look at us and be like 'Guys, they're fucking delicious, what's wrong with you?'.
The important distinction here is that the Baby-Eater has a motivation. He's not just being evil for evil's sake. It's what subjective morality is a good aspect to include in games - it allows you to have well motivated villains.
>>44472660
Yeah, actually.
>>44472660
Well...yeah. Good and evil depend on how you view the situation. Anakin thought he was doing the right thing. As the audience, we view what he was doing as Evil. But that's not what Anakin saw. He was definitely conflicted, but he acted because he felt it was the right thing to do.
>>44472558
That's a pretty logical argument that sees a lot of play in the legal system. Some people do it because they're mentally ill, same people do it because their moral compass points in a different direction.
If you guys want an example of subjective morality - just argue with a racist.
>>44472431
>You're going to be stabbing each other in the back and literally feeding souls to dark entities in exchange for personal power.
Yeah. So you're going after something that drives you for your own personal motivations. You're not doing it because 'lol I'm so evilz'.
>>44469564
>>Runesmiths - Unbalanced, or as good as Wizards?
They are not unbalanced in the slightest.
To make a rune, you need
>Inscription
>A week (Permanent) or 2d10 minutes (Temporary) for a chance to roll your Magic Characteristic, time wasted if you don't make the roll. As far as I can see, the Rune of Speed has the lowest inscription number at 6, which gives them a 50% chance to fuck up that rune, and no Channeling or ingredients to improve their odds. Inscriptions also have to be done with 'extreme care', which suggests working in pretty good conditions.
>Empowering
>An extended test, 20 minutes for a temporary rune and a month for a permanent one, to fix the rune. Again using the Rune of Speed as the easiest rune, the Empowerment number is 3. That means a minimum of 1 hour's work (if you make all your skill tests) to make a temporary rune, and 3 months (!) to make a permanent one.
>Binding
>No roll, but it takes 1d10 minutes for a temporary rune and 1d10 days for a permanent.
As a GM, I can't see applying any positive modifiers to those tests unless he was actually working in a proper workshop; just trying to set up the tools in camp one night ain't going to cut it (and would the 'tradesman's tools: Runesmith' include an anvil, or is one necessary? All the art of Runesmiths actually working has an anvil). All told, it's over an hour's work (and a significant amount of cash to get a Good or Best quality item to craft), if you make a number of difficult tests, to, at some point in the future, give someone +1d10 initiative. Once. If he has the weapon already in hand when combat starts. Whee.
>[cont]
>>44473619
Runesmith isn't OP, it's a ordeal of patience, especially considering that the Rule of Time forces them to spend a lot of time each day working on each rune (and only one at a time), curtailing any adventuring, and the Rule of Pride prevents you from making the same thing twice (and, as read, is pushing you to make greater projects all the time). If you are extremely lucky, you might make a few temporary runes while travelling with the party, but unless your game is based in a city where you can fuck off for 4 hours a day to make your runes in the hopes that you succeed on your tests, because failure will cost you so fucking long, you're never going to be more powerful than the Wizard. Say what you will about the Curse, at least there's no result that says, "In one month, make a Skill Test to see if you can cast this spell. Repeat for 3-15 months."
>>44473692
>>44473619
THIS.
What are some allies night goblins used besides fellow goblins?
>>44473200
>>44473378
>>44473436
The difference, of course, is whether we're talking about subjective morality of characters or if we're seriously suggesting that players go all "Yeah but it's not actually evil because he doesn't think it's evil", which is fucking retarded.
If you're going to play a Chaos campaign, you're going to have to accept that what you're doing, the actual deeds, are fucking evil, no matter how much your character might disagree.
Sure, everyone is going to have a motivation to do what they're doing. Nobody is proposing that you should literally go "FOR EVIL!" every time you sacrifice a baby for Slaanesh or some shit. But arguing about whether or not the act of sacrificing a baby for Slaanesh because you want mad props from a Chaos god is actually an evil act is, at best, a futile and silly effort.
>>44473692
>>44473619
With all the effort that goes into making a rune, it raises the question:
Why do Runesmiths go adventuring at all?
>>44473905
For the thrill of finding new ale to drink and grudges to solve, of course!
>>44473905
To find lost dwarven knowledge from lost dwarven strongholds and from weapons stolen by the greenskins and shit.
>>44473899
>If you're going to play a Chaos campaign, you're going to have to accept that what you're doing, the actual deeds, are fucking evil, no matter how much your character might disagree.
Yeah, definitely.
No-ones saying that your personally morality should change to fit the characters, just that when you play a character with a morality that differs from your you shouldn't just assume they are driven by some urge to just do evil. Give them good motivations. Understand your characters morals. It'll only improve how your character is played out.
>>44473893
I could see Night Goblins working with Cave Trolls, Ogres, Orcs, Skaven and maaaaaybe some really unscrupulous Chaos/Undead. Depending on the situation.
>>44473200
>No-one is just being evil for the lulz. They have motivations and drives. That's the point - from the perspective of a standard WFRP game, these guys are evil.
>But from the perspective of the Skaven/Cultists, the base-line Imperials are evil.
No, I really think you're going at this wrong. The guys going around saying, 'Blood for the Blood God!' and putting babies on pikes aren't thinking that the Imperials are evil. They think they're weak, and they don't value anyone too weak to defend themselves. Same with the people who treat humans as pawns in their games, as things to be exploited to grant beauty, or vectors for infection and nihilism.
Chaos is objectively an evil force. You are not at all making a good case for 'objective morality', it's blatantly obvious to everyone (including the characters in the setting) that their actions are cruel and harmful to others, but that some of them don't care about causing that harm if it benefits themselves. As someone who has read plenty of first-party historical documents from the medieval period, including the ways that folks like the Mongols explained why they were making pyramids from the heads of the citizens of Chinese cities, they knew damn well what they were doing was evil. They justified it as being a punishment for transgressions, or necessary for future peace, but they NEVER said, "Cutting off this head is a moral act." Even the Crusaders didn't think the actual rape and killing was moral, merely the necessary path to send those heathens who would not convert to hell where they wouldn't bother good Christians. The Norse aren't sitting around the Sea of Claws saying, "Gee, rape and sacrifice to these deities is good," they're saying (as detailed in Tome of Corruption) "Shit, I better start ripping out hearts, these gods are crazy and if I give them blood they might support me, but if not they will destroy me."
>>44474005
>
No-ones saying that your personally morality should change to fit the characters, just that when you play a character with a morality that differs from your you shouldn't just assume they are driven by some urge to just do evil. Give them good motivations. Understand your characters morals. It'll only improve how your character is played out.
Then we are in agreement. Of course, Chaos is the kind of nasty shit where you're going to forget yourself sooner or later. At one point, why you started to do it won't matter any more. But yeah, of course your character should have an actual reason why he started doing it in the first place.
I just have a problem with people who insist shit like "Nurgle's not actually evil, he totally loves everyone and wants to do good for them!" which is a fucking ridiculous point to make when it boils down to cultists pumping fucking bubonic plague on steroids into a village's well to "spread the love".
Yeah, sure, he can love everyone all he wants, that doesn't make the results any less evil.
>>44473905
If you want to be a good Runesmith, >>44473961
You might just be a Dwarf going out into the world so he can see what it's like, knowing it's his duty to spend the next few centuries in some basement hamming out magic artifacts. It's his familial obligation to his hold to make those weapons, so there's no question he'll do it, but first he's going to do some ... field research.
>>44474041
>They justified it as being a punishment for transgressions, or necessary for future peace, but they NEVER said, "Cutting off this head is a moral act."
>They justified it
>justified
If you can justify doing something that's evil, then you must recognize that you're doing an evil act for a greater good.
>Even the Crusaders didn't think the actual rape and killing was moral, merely the necessary path to send those heathens who would not convert to hell where they wouldn't bother good Christians.
Doing evil acts for what they see as good reasons.
Subjective evil.
>>44474151
I wish I had that cap where it talks about how Nurgle, as the embodiment of despair, doesn't actually love. He pulls minds like taffy until they interpret him using them as vessels to spread abject misery and pain as love, like the love a beaten spouse has for their abuser.
>>44474152
You should probably expect that when you're labouring under your master, but when you're a Rune Lord then you have the choice to do just about anything you want. Not even Kings back talk to Rune Lords, but then again Rune Lords doesn't usually talk back to Kings either.
From the War of Vengeance series, a Run Lord named Ranuld Silverthumb regularly set out to find 'lost magic', old secrets that were buried with the dwarfs of forgotten holds and mines. His apprentice Morrek basically did everything he was told, until he became a Lord himself and had the autonomy that Ranuld enjoyed. Morrek even spent thirty years crafting a rune weapon only to fuck up at the last moment because his master walked in the room and made him really nervous.
>>44474313
Yeah, but how many people are going to play Runelords? Hell, how many are going to be Master Runesmiths? Odds are good that if you play a Runesmith, your entire character progression will take place in Apprentice and Journeyman careers.
It's like saying that a Grandmaster or Noble Lord can do just about anything they want. True, but missing important context.
>>44474429
That isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you do get there, you know you've earned it. Unelss your GM is really easy on you. You get that feeling of satisfaction and bragging rights on top of that. You probably won't get there, but if you do you'll remember it for a very long time.
>>44474466
>>44474313
Now there's a question - how would you play a game where your characters regularly have years or even decades of downtime?
>>44474313
That must of caused some major salt
>>44474466
Also true, but I've never seen a character go from first session to those rarefied heights. Usually it's replacements who come in mid-campaign with a career or two under their belt to catch up to the party, because to original characters have either died or retired to enjoy their time with their remaining limbs.I've got a dream of a Border Princes character going from Zealot to Scourge-King of a theocracy, but I know it'll never happen
>>44474429
You need to realize that most careers in WFRP are not meant to indicate that your character is doing the standard, regular activities of that career. Otherwise you're going to have a hard fucking time explaining how exactly an university student is supposed to get out there.
It's not hard to explain why an apprentice runesmith would be out there, though. Maybe your master sent you to find something and now you're swept up in all this bullshit. Maybe your master announced you a failure instead, and now your only hope at redemption is to get out there and do and find really impressive things.
>>44474509
Possibly intermission style breaks. You finish an adventure and the GM says the next one will occur several months, maybe a year or so, later. In a game I played we were travelling across the ocean, so we had around six months to fuck around with. And we made the trip twice.
>>44474533
Between the characters? It was expected of him to be hard on his apprentice. He later redeemed himself in the eyes of his master and forged a weapon that earned Morgrim the title of Elgidoom.Alas, poor Morrek.
>>44474509
Never done it in WFRP, but in other games we drew back the scope andworked with the GM. We'd talk about broad goals for our characters, make a couple of checks (like Diplomacy checks for the guy who wanted to be a courtier) to see how it goes over the years, then zoom back in to the specific situation they are in. We get 'love letters' that detail the scenario, the stakes for a certain roll, then make that roll. The outcome determines what the game is like when we start the regular session.
>>44474551
I entirely realise that, anon, and never said anything that you think I said. I just pointed out that most WFRP characters aren't going to be in a situation like a Runelord where they can just do whatever they want because they are in charge of their own destinies, especially when you want to play a character like a Runesmith who requires consistent NPC contact and approval to keep advancing in that career path.
>>44474551
>how exactly an university student is supposed to get out there.
Extra credit assignment.
>>44474727
>Knee deep in shit
>Wading through the sewers
>Lost your sense of smell a week in
>Your skin looks like a warzone. Boils and sores everywhere.
>You lost your left leg fighting the ratmen that the world above doesn't believe in.
>You were blinded in the right eye when one of the other sewerjacks smashed a lantern into your face.
>But every night, sure as thunder, you sit down at your desk at home, stinking to high heaven.
>Just a few more pages and your treatise "On the Nature of the Ratmen: Fact or Fiction?" will be done.
>Totally worth the cost of tuition.
>>44475038
>>Knee deep in shit
>>Wading through the sewers
>>Lost your sense of smell a week in
>>Your skin looks like a warzone. Boils and sores everywhere.
So he's in the first year dorms?
>>44474534
>>44474621
I'd like to see a Border Princes game that focused on the empire in the larger scale over a long period of time, rather than just individual characters.
Like a sort of Kingdom Builder game.
>>44475238
I always liked games like that: Birthright, ACKS, anything that let's me play king.
>>44475406
I wonder if the Warhammer: Total War game will do anything to breath a little bit of laugh back into WFRP.
>>44475587
Maybe. I think the most likely thing to happen would be a reprint of several books. Best case scenario, we get 2.5 edition.
>>44475621
>>44475587
Hell, I'm just hoping that it will make Fantasy Flight look at their books and realise the PDFs they are selling are the inaccurate and outdated first printing, not the errata'd versions.
On a side note, how are they doing the factions/family trees? Are you going to play as the whole Empire, or a specific province? Are we going back to Medieval II Pope elections for the Emperor?
>>44475722
I think how it works is that you pick a legendary lord, in the case of the Empire it would be Karl Franz or Balthazar Gelt and you go from there. The Empire is fractured and it's up to you to bring the other provinces back into the fold, probably crushing Boris Todbringer in the process. You start as Reikland, but your troops have Talabecland colours for some reason. Legendary lords can't die, so there wouldn't be much of a need for family trees. Normal lords and heroes can die, though.
>>44475808
>Legendary lords can't die, so there wouldn't be much of a need for family trees. Normal lords and heroes can die, though.
Are they doing a lords/heroes divide? That's pretty sweet. You'll still need some kind of structure to organize your commanders and governors, though, at least like they had in Empire.
>Franz or Gelt
>No Volkmar the Grim
>No Valten (or Huss)
Life is suffering for good Sigmarites.
>>44475917
Lords lead armies, so Generals of the Empire, Vampire Lords, Warbosses, etc. Heroes are agents but they are represented on the battlefield. So a Witch Hunter can move around the map purging heretics and cultists but he can also join an army and take to the field.
As for other lords, because it's CA, there will undoubtedly be a lot of DLC whoring. If they have trailers, it'd still be kinda neat.
>>trailer starts in podunk village
>>Beastmen attack
>>Valten strides out of the smithy with his fathers hammers and wrecks shit
>>Huss later finds him and kneels before him in the mud and the rain
>>each time he gains new equipment, he gets a little older and moves from the simple farm boy into the Exalted of Sigmar
>>44475917
>Life is suffering for good Sigmarites.
Fucking Sigscum.
Praise the true lord Ulric. Your god worshiped ours.
>>44476041
>>trailer starts in podunk village
>>Beastmen attack
>>Valten strides out of the smithy with his fathers hammers and wrecks shit
>>Huss later finds him and kneels before him in the mud and the rain
>>each time he gains new equipment, he gets a little older and moves from the simple farm boy into the Exalted of Sigmar
Fuck, you know what I've taken away from all the Warhammer vidya games?
The fucking videos.
They're beautiful. A lot of the games are meh, but to see the world realised in the trailers is amazing.
When are we getting a decent Warhammer flick?
>>44476042
Come back to Carroburg and say that to our face, dog fucker.
>>44476084
Yeah, no matter how terrible the game is the videos are always awesome. Mark of Chaos had almost no replay value but the trailer kicked ass. Warhammer Online bombed and the trailers were the best part.
I'd love to see some movies, even if they're just short films. It doesn't even need to be epic, something like a Rune Smith going about his day.
>>44476042
I'm sorry, there's all this noise in the background; they're moving all the chairs for our Electors around, and you know there's so many it raises an awful racket. I'm sorry, you were saying something about how Ulric knelt before Sigmar as the true God of Man, the King of the Gods and the Protector of Order, while Ulric focused on trying to punch all his problems away and warming himself with a mound of dogflesh?
>>44476041
They've already started the DLC whoring with Chaos, but the rest sounds so good...
Shallya have mercy, I am but a man, a man who loves the fuck out of his Total War games and his Warhammer Fantasy.
>>44476210
Sigmar tests us, brother.
Sigmar tests us.
>>44476155
I want that outfit.
For...reasons...
>>44476210
>>shot opens with doves flying out of a church window
>>a young woman with purest white robes kneels before an altar
>>several shots of Empire soldiers being butchered and maimed in various ways
>>the young woman beseeches Shallya to grant her the patience and wisdom to help her fellow man and heal the sick and wounded
>>more shots of carnage but several soldiers are dragged off the battlefield by young women in white robes, though many are stained with blood
>>the young woman stands up, grabs her walking stick and cradles a pendant in her hand, walking outside to a massive triage center with thousands of soldiers groaning in pain, some even begging for their lives to be ended
>>DAUGHTERS OF MERCY DLC
I don't doubt it could get that bad with the dlc, but Christ I could go on forever like this.
>>44476284
I know somewhere in the bowels of Creative Assembly there's a folder labeled: 'Bretonnia DLC (Tomb Kings?)', and I don't know if I will be able to restrain myself.
>>44476376
From what I've heard, and I'm just being hopeful at this point, Bretonnia is the first of their planned FreeLC.
>>44476398
Free? I don't know if CA or GW knows the meaning of the word. It would be lovely if they supported the game that way, though. I'd happily pay for Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, and other things that require big new sections of the map if they worked in the other factions for free.
>>44476465
It's basically just a rumour, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it. If it is real, I think it might be a way to tide things over with fans. Lots of people want Bretonnia, but they can't release another DLC so soon after the Chaos Warriors debacle. Any other factions that can't fit into an expansion or dlc pack might get the Free LC treatment, though I think that will probably just be for unique units or Lords/Heroes. Like I'm not going to pay $5 for a single character. Maybe a pack, sure, but I'd prefer a free Lord if it's just going to be one guy.
>>44476465
>Free?
>Fuh-ree?
>Thuh-ree?
>Thuhreehundredpercentpriceincrease?
>>44476583
Greed is eternal.
>>44476656
>In the grim darkness of the far future
>There is only profits
What are peoples dream games?
What sort of WFRP campaign do you wish you were playing?
Or what sort of Warhammer game do you wish they would make?
For my money, I'd love to see something like 'Chaos in the Old World' expanded to include all the other deities in a Chaos V. Order fight on a metalevel.
>>44477066
>>campaign
Anything, really. I haven't played in months and I'd be happy with just doing something.
>>Warhammer game
Sandbox free roaming Elder Scrolls style rpg. I wanna run around the Empire and explore.
>>44477129
>Sandbox free roaming Elder Scrolls style rpg. I wanna run around the Empire and explore.
That's what I was hoping to find in Warhammer: Age of Reckoning.
It gave me a little bit of satisfaction but ultimately it...it just didn't fill that need.
Elder Scrolls style open world rpg, with the lethality of Dark Souls.
Thoughts?
>>44477171
Even better, it has co-op modes. The game gets harder with the more players that join you. So you can travel into the Worlds Edge Mountains and explore a cave to fight goblins and darker things together.
>>44477221
Throw in army level instances where you can join in the fight on a mass scale. Maybe the option to lead units/armies if you manage to get a decent rank.
Fuck. It saddens me that we'll never get this.
>>44477275
Just for good measure, mix in some Mount & Blade. Which path you take, the adventurer or the commander, is up to you. You might command a small band of mercenaries, or you might be more at home with four or five other adventurers.
>>44477362
Wait.
FUCK - MOUNT AND BLADE.
Shit, this actually might be doable.
>>44477066
>Or what sort of Warhammer game do you wish they would make?
Rat-Catcher: Dark Souls Edition.
>>44477496
>>Come traveller, sit by the fire.
>>Let me tell you the greatest tale never told, of a rat catcher and his small but vic- hey, I said sit down goddamnit!
>>You're gonna listen to my story and you're gonna goddamn like it.
>>44477549
>Nintendogs - Small but Vicious Edition
>>44477573
>>Side scrolling action game
>>Castle Drakenhoff
>>44477615
>Sim City
>Skaven Underempire
>>44477679
>>The Council of 13 has revoked your funding!
>>Mortal Warhammer
>>No daemons allowed, only mortal heroes, lords and special characters being the shit out of each other in a fighting tournament
>>44469901
>Anon is talking about Lurk Snitchtongue in...Beastslayer, maybe? Where he's been captured and made a slave in Moulder and leads the slaves in a revolt to free them from the tyranny of their masters.
You mean the slave revolt that was mentioned in the 7th ED Skaven rulebook? Guess what happened? When the Skaven elders offered amnesty for any slave who points out who their leader is.
All the slaves, ALL OF THEM stood up and pointed out their leader. Imagine thousands of Skaven pointing at the same rat. He was killed and the slaves were massacred anyways.
No, that example falls short because we know that Rat's objectives were as selfish as his fellow slaves. He was just using them as tools.
>Is a pretty condescending response to an offer of evidence.
Like I knew, the evidence was lacking.
And going "Maybe and I think" makes me feel more inclined to be condescending towards you.
> It's made clear in the Skaven sources that they are made incapable of violence or aggression as part of their conditioning.
Then I would call you a liar and a cretin.
Because female breeders were able to defend themselves (quite aggressively) when they were attacked by Minotaurs.
Source is the 7th ED Beastmen army book.
>>44478006
>No, that example falls short because we know that Rat's objectives were as selfish as his fellow slaves. He was just using them as tools.
Not the anon you're replying to, but that sounds like the same situation that happened to Lurk.
And people turning on their leader when they are in a hopeless situation and hoping to save their own skin isn't proof that Skaven can't have altruistic motives. Especially since you've just demonstrated a Skaven trying to lead his people to freedom. Sure it turned out shitty but what did you expect?
>Source is the 7th ED Beastmen army book.
I'll take your word on it, because Grey Seer implies heavily that female Skaven are incapable of violence as part of their conditioning and as a safety protocol.
>And going "Maybe and I think" makes me feel more inclined to be condescending towards you.
That just makes you an asshole.
>>44477761
>Warhammer Dating Sim
>Play as a greater Daemon of Slaanesh slowly corrupting mortals to your service.
>>44478252
>>Archaon-kun, it's not like I w-w-wanted you to hug me. BAKA!!
>>44478297
>>44478252
I need this in my life for reasons.
>>44478301
>>I hope Sigvald-senpai notices me...
>>44478164
>And people turning on their leader when they are in a hopeless situation and hoping to save their own skin isn't proof that Skaven can't have altruistic motives. Especially since you've just demonstrated a Skaven trying to lead his people to freedom. Sure it turned out shitty but what did you expect?
There is nothing indicating that he was "leading his people for freedom" for goodness or freedom's sake. He was just a slave-rat playing at warlord. You are projecting things on that Skaven which were not present at all.
There is astounding failure here to provide any proof that Skaven can be altruistic.
>I'll take your word on it, because Grey Seer implies heavily that female Skaven are incapable of violence as part of their conditioning and as a safety protocol.
Well, I think that poor Geer Seer in "Thanquol's Doom" who got his nose chewed off while mating with one, would disagree.
So would the Minotaurs who fought them.
>That just makes you an asshole.
I have to be If you guys just cannot provide any proofs without stuttering with "I think...maybe", and then expect me to take what you provided seriously. Be sure of what your evidence says.
>>44478445
>I have to be If you guys just cannot provide any proofs without stuttering with "I think...maybe", and then expect me to take what you provided seriously. Be sure of what your evidence says.
No, you're just an asshole and people don't like you.
>>44478333
Top 10 Warhammer Waifus - GO!
>>44478476
The adoration of anons does not concern me.
Go forth and provide proofs. Good proofs. Proofs you are sure of.
>>44470472
>raping pillaging and murdering are done only by Norse Marauders, not by the scores of Imperial levies that are essentially just bumfuck peasants who get a free ticket to plunder, rape, and murder another Imperial Prince's property (i.e., his servants).
>the truth is not morally good
If the truth is not good, then why are you trying to learn and pursue it? Certainly, I do not think anything above I have mentioned counts as 'good' as you would define it. Frankly, I find the dialogue of good versus evil to be tired and boring, and the architecture of the setting speaks about this. Rather than being brave, noble men, the Empire is manned by cowards who ignore completely the threat of the Skaven, who backstab and covert eachother's titles and lands, and whose petty religious differences (the Sigmarites are often at odds with all of the others) are often the course for severe factionalism.
Fundamentally, the Empire is flawed in this way. If there is any good to be had at all throughout the entirety of the Warhammer world, it is the High Elves. And even then, we would need to define 'good', because I have already proven that the Empire is in no way morally superior to the Chaos warbands that they fight.
Either way, you're arguing against the grain here. I get that you think that you can dismiss non-binary morality with 'le hat meme' but this will not hold up in a discussion with someone who is sincere nor will it help you when you try to enforce some retarded 12 year old Warcraft tier plot on a setting that is so richly faceted. You're fitting the square block into a circular slot, as it were.
>>44478476
The Everqueen
The Lady (Pre End Times nonsense)
The Fey Enchantress
Morathi
The Everqueen's handmaidens
Ariel
Isha
Khalida
Nefereta
Sofer
>>44478476
Only ones to pop up, in no particular order:
Neferata
Genevieve Dieudonné
Isabella von Carstein
Valkia the Bloody
Tzarina Katarin
Ariel
Morothi
Khalida
>>44478592
You are asking for proof for a reason for Skaven to do something for the betterment of the Skaven as a species?
Why does anon even need to provide it? If it makes sense for his game, then it makes sense for his game.
>>44478655
...
>Khalida
>You will never kneel between her dusty, desiccated thighs and look into her eyes as she makes you call her your 'Mummy'.
>>44478627
>because I have already proven that the Empire is in no way morally superior to the Chaos warbands that they fight.
Does the Empire plot and strive to bring the ruin of the world? Do they fight just to satisfy the whims of eternally thirsting evil gods?
No, they don't. The Empire, though flawed, fights for its people and all humanity.
We have Chaos apologetics here too. Haaaaalp!
>>44478729
Khalida in life, obviously.
>>44478729
>You are asking for proof for a reason for Skaven to do something for the betterment of the Skaven as a species?
Skaven don't do things for free and out of selflessness. People claimed that Skaven can be altruistic and selfless, and I have yet to see them back it up.
>>44478750
>Khalida in life, obviously.
Get on my level, flesh-lover.
>>44478730
>Anyone who can understand an alternative morality or viewpoint is an apologist! WAAAH!
>>44478772
And apparently leading a rebellion to free slaves isn't altruistic? Do you have any proof that Skaven CAN'T be altruistic or selfless?
>>44478730
>Does the Empire plot and strive to bring the ruin of the world? Do they fight just to satisfy the whims of eternally thirsting evil gods?
The Empire does not fight to save the world neither knowingly nor effectually. It's purpose is self-preservation of itself for its own interests, rather than the preservation of the world it is in. It does nothing to help Middenburg and Kislev is really the only foreign state that enjoys good relations with the Empire. Brettonia is mostly left alone, so the Empire is far from a benevolent father.
This is why I say it is the High Elves who are the only ones with the knowledge capable of doing anything, and even then they have realized that they are doomed.
Furthermore, we must also consider that the world itself was made by Chaos. So why is it such a bad thing for a world to end? That is how new ones begin. Not to say that I am satisfied at all about the new Age of Sigmar shit.
>>44478781
What sort of warped morality do you have if you think blowing up the world because the voices in your head told you so is a good thing.
What sort of logic does make the blowing up the world equal of wanting to run a stable and prosperous empire?
>>44478797
He was leading them to free himself and accumulate power. The typical Skaven way. If heis altruistic, then every warlord and Seer are too. Which is absolutely dumb.
The default state of the Skaven as they presented in the fluff is that they are extremely selfish creatures with no sense of empathy or compassion. You disagree with this and claim the Skaven can be altruistic. It's your job to back up it up with proof. That's how it works.
>>44478899
>Empire
>Stable
This is what Karl Franz's bootlicks ACTUALLY believe.
>>44478899
>What sort of warped morality
Probably whatever morality warriors of chaos are running on.
>>44478899
>Which is absolutely dumb.
You've provided no evidence of that.
You're the one disagreeing with the established evidence of a Skaven believing he was chosen by the Horned Rat to lead slaves to freedom. YOU have to provide further proof. THAT'S how it works.
>>44478925
Middenheimer detected.
Also, a GM's job is to interpret the setting his game is set in. If we're using this example of Skabbicus, he might have had good intentions. He might have had worse intentions. We don't know because the story was just a blurb and was never expanded upon. Since this is WFRP, it's up to the GM to decide his motives and intentions.Personally I want to play out a friendship between an old blind man and a Clanrat.
>>44478925
Emphasis on the WANT.
The leaders of the empire are trying to stabilize and lead their people to a brighter future. Karl Franz and Magnus are examples of this. It's certainly more stable and propserous than the non-civilization in the north whose only concern in life is to follow the voices that want them to unmake the world.
>I am running a country here. Leaving me alone
vs
>I want blow it all up with the world just because some voice told me so and because I think it's going be fun
You can objectively say who is is in the right here.
>>44478899
>That's how it works.
Duder, anon just gave you evidence and you're response was 'Nah, that' doesn't count, try again'. And in the mean time you've given nothing to say that ratmen can't do anything for the good of their kind.
Not that any of this matters.
Everyone knows there's no such thing as ratmen.
>drunk peasants
>>44478983
>Personally I want to play out a friendship between an old blind man and a Clanrat.
Has a bit of a Frankenstein feel to it. I like it.
>>44478991
Closer to:
>I am running a country here, leave me alone. So what if people are dying of disease, starvation and rampant monsters - at least we're trying.
vs
>The world is diseased. To be born in it is to live a life of suffering and misery. If we end this world and start a new one, the survivors and those who come after can live a life free of suffering.
It's all subjective, sonny boy.
>>44478938
>Probably whatever morality warriors of chaos are running on.
You mean the non-morality they thrive on which makes the Empire hold the moral high ground by default.
>>44478938
Wrong. I gave a default state of the Skaven as presented in the fluff.
You on the other hand failed to do anything. Your evidence is not established or satisfactory. You are projecting thins on it that are not there.
Unless you do better, then it's the last (You) you are going to get.
>>44478655
>Morathi
I don't know what would happen, but I suspect I'd never forget.
>>44479012
I think it'd be kinda cute. The old man has no children anymore, and he can't see the aberration before him so he learns to know the clanrat and his personality.
>>Oh sure, he speaks strangely and has...unfamiliar customs, but I've met Middenlanders, so he isn't the strangest person I've had the chance to talk to.
>>Krask, why you sneak-sneak out of clawpack?
>>Clawleader, I scout out human town, I swear-swear it!
>>Krask later goes to his human friend's home to enjoy a small meal and a great deal of conversation by the fireplace. He truly feels like he belongs. His friend cannot see, but that is for the best. Without his eyes, he can see beyond the physical.
>>Krask feels happy for once.
>>44479037
>Wrong. I gave a default state of the Skaven as presented in the fluff.
No, you argued that an entire race cannot have the capacity to be altruistic because their default state is towards treachery and betrayal. And when presented with evidence in the lore of Skaven being altruistic, you argue that it's not satisfactory and request more.
>You mean the non-morality they thrive on which makes the Empire hold the moral high ground by default.
You do not understand what morality is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
>Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper.
Morals are based on the personal or cultural values, codes of conduct and social mores.
You're arguing that Chaos Worshippers and men of the Empire must have the same moral framework, which is patently wrong.
But then, being wrong appears to be your strong suit.
>>44479012
>>I am running a country here, leave me alone. So what if people are dying of disease, starvation and rampant monsters - at least we're trying.
Translated to "We are trying our best". The Empire is still the most prosperous and powerful nation on Earth with a standard of living that is far higher than most human nations. It's not their fault that they are a real besieged from within and without.
>The world is diseased. To be born in it is to live a life of suffering and misery. If we end this world and start a new one, the survivors and those who come after can live a life free of suffering.
That's Archaon's motivation, not Chaos's.
His gods and followers just wanted to see the world burn for kicks.
>>44479064
>>Krask feels happy for once.
Right in the fucking feels.
>>44479092I don't listen to a word they say. They don't see you as I do, I wish they would try to.
>>44479089
>His gods and followers just wanted to see the world burn for kicks.
Arguable. The motivations of the Chaos God seem to lean towards existence just being a game to them. And it may well be that all existence is only a result of their actions - depending on who is writing the fluff on any given day.
But your point is made. The only issue is you're approaching the morality from an Empire standpoint. If you can't hypothetically see Chaos's point of view, you'll have difficulty arguing that it's wrong.
Mind you, at this stage I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.
>>44478848
>we must also consider that the world itself was made by Chaos. So why is it such a bad thing for a world to end?
So you are okay with aborting rape babies? You monster.
The world might have been created with stolen Chaos magics but it has the right to live.
>>44479102WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS
THIS is why people shouldn't outright forbid the idea of the traditional forces of 'evil' from being capable of demonstrating positive motivations. You miss out on little snippets like this that serve to emphasize the Warhammer ethos rather than detract from it.
>>44478991
Yeah? Norscans don't effectually want an end of the world either. They'd rather be rewarded and have a world they can enjoy these rewards in. Same with pretty much every other non-Daemonic Chaos entity.
There is a big difference between what you WANT to happen and what happens in effect. Magnus and co. want a stable Empire, but the Imperial Electorate is not obliged at all to agree.
>It's certainly more stable and propserous than the non-civilization in the north whose only concern in life is to follow the voices that want them to unmake the world.
To be truthful, these voices are not telling them to unmake the world, just to make war and battle and honor their Gods. And really, what Man in this setting is doing any different? You can make the argument that the Empire is more economically sound, but at the same time, there is nobody in the Norscan Tribes that must prostitute themselves or sell themselves as a mercenary in order to scrape by. Tribal systems have a different value system than the Burgher one the Empire is based off of.
>>44479125
>So you are okay with aborting rape babies? You monster.
Dude, if you're going to troll at least try to be subtle.
>>44479133
It's up to the GM to craft a story that both makes sense and entertains his players. I really want to include this because a lot of things in Warhammer are blanket statements. There are always bound to be a few black sheep in every society. I just want to play this out so badlyso the two of you need look no more.
>>44479168
>I just want to play this out so bad
Why not write it?
>>44479142
>Yeah? Norscans don't effectually want an end of the world either.
Then why did they all cheer at Archaon's oath to destroy the world and end all existence?
Seems to be that desire the world to end. Why else follow the Lord of the End Times?
>>44479193
I suppose I could, I just think it would be nice to surprise a group of Skaven PC's with an NPC who doesn't reject them immediately.
>>44479219
Depends on how your group would handle it, I guess.
>>44479198
>Why else follow the Lord of the End Times?
To see what's on the other side. People worship in death cults in real life because they think that what's on the other side is worth it.
>>44479240
I might as well write something, if only to get it out of my system.
>>44479254
Do it. It'd be great to see the results.
>>44479198
That's a fair point, but either way, we've already shown that ending the world is not inherently evil. After all, it was made by Chaos and is by and large subject to Chaos' wishes. That Humanity does not know this, for obvious reasons, is no excuse at all. Surely, if they did know that the very world they lived in was constructed by the same hordes which eventually overrun them, they would probably have given up.
So with that said, we return to Humanity really doing not having a dogmatic agenda more than it is a Darwinistic one.
>>44479082
Altruistic Skaven? Or at the very list Skaven who are acting with the best interests of the species at heart?
The Council of Thirteen. United warring clans to help the species come together and defeat their mutual enemies.
Has anyone played The Dying of the Light campaign?
>>44478983
>Since this is WFRP, it's up to the GM to decide his motives and intentions.
This cannot be stressed enough.
>>44479401
Is that the one with Egg?
>>44479482
Karl Franz's son sounds like a nice kid, even though he has a crush on a vampire.
>>44479280
http://m.uploadedit.com/ba3n/1451548273992.rtf
Part 1?
>>44479590
Surprisingly enjoyable. Keep it up.
>>44479808
Any suggestions or criticism? I'd make more if more people read it, though I'll be absent from the thread for a few days. I'll miss out on the discussion, but then again I'll not have to deal with the thread autist.
>>44479831
I believe the thread autist is also the thread OP.
>>44480039
Possibly? The thread description might be from him, but I think these threads should be about the game and the setting. Not settling on moral disputes or rule discrepancies that are proven wrong all the time.
>>44480084
You the guy who was constantly complaining about wizards?
>>44480381
Nope. Wizards are fine. They are different between lores, but they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. If I were that guy, I would engage you in a pointless argument and ignore any evidence that proved me wrong.
So, WFRP.
I'm putting together a campaign that takes place during the Time of the Three Emperors, and I need advice.
What major differences to the setting will there be, besides the fact that the Colleges of Magic have not yet been founded?
>>44478655
Someone's got an elf boner.
>>44479291
>we've already shown that ending the world is not inherently evil
No, you haven't. You haven't defined good and evil, you just call 'subjective!' and shift the definitions to whatever will make the argument in your current post work.
> After all, it was made by Chaos and is by and large subject to Chaos' wishes
It's like saying that hurricanes are a natural force and not evil, so Mad Doktor Helmut and his Sturmbringer Maschine aren't evil when they try and destroy the world by obliterating absolutely everything and killing absolutely everyone with massive storms. The Warriors of Chaos can see this end coming, and they cheer it on because they think the getting will be good before it all falls apart.
>>44480630
Slightly less gunpowder and more Skaven
