why /tg/? I got the look I've given "That guy" from my group when I pitched this game. Every thing about it is great but putting that much spotlight on player to player sex is just uncomfortable. it's not like we've shyed away from the topic before. We generally play games with R rated material like Shadowrun or Delta Green but this just feels like some one put the Book of Erotic Fantasy in the core mechanics. No one was "offended" it just made me look like I was trying to create a magical realm. I feel it's prudish to dismiss the mechanic but that leaves one female player and four dudes and unless two play gay that's a pretty awkward environment.
>>44449303
Its mechanics for emotionally entangled circumstances in a game made for interplayer drama. You don't have to use them if people are more interested in shooting things though.
Were there specific complaints or just talking about sex getting awkward?
>>44449303
Firstly, nothing dictates your players MUST play the same gender that they hold. One or more of your dudes could have female characters.
Second, nothing dictates that your players must play the same orientation as they are, so two of them could just "play gay".
Thirdly, the sex moves do not, by default, require that the sex be with a PLAYER character. Many have no effect against NPCs, but you could change that with some basic homebrew. The moves care if you have sex with a CHARACTER.
Fourthly, and getting to the actual meat of your question: Because it's a chosen theme by the game designer to explore in this world. Apocalypse World is a post-apocalyptic wasteland, where everyone is fighting to survive. Where there are plenty of scarred, hardened, guarded characters. Sex indicates a waste of time and potentially resources, and exposure of one's self to another. It's showing a level of intimacy and trust with another character, and therefore there are notable repercussions to the act.
Personally, I think it's more thematically appropriate in Monsterhearts, where the idea is that, as hormonal CW teenage monsters, sex is an important milestone in their development, and has a power in the culture.
If you want to change it, make it purely a matter of intimacy/emotional connection, above and beyond the physical. If the Gunlugger confesses to the Angel that they used to be afraid of guns, because (CHILDHOOD TRAUMA), and so that's why they use them now, and the Angel reciprocates, explaining that they're secretly happy that the world's fucked up, because they feel special when they help people, and now everyone needs their help, Boom, both trigger their move.
>Were there specific complaints or just talking about sex getting awkward?
at first the battle babe rose some eyelids not because sexism (James Bond is technically a battle babe depending on the movie) but because of the tonal whiplash how are you supposed to get a Walking Dead or The Road vibe when you have naked amazon chick with a sledge hammer. this was just exacerbated by the sex moves.
but like I said interpersonal drama isn't something we're new to we've had sessions that had maybe like 30 min of combat and the rest of the time the party was just learning about each other while waiting for extraction. Two players hooked up as did another and an NPC on a separate occasion. We're good with emotionally charged situations. I think just the whole "if you fuck you get history and that equals xp" rubbed everyone the wrong way also the way certain archtypes view sex seemed kind of restrictive toward that characters personality.
>>44449602
>Thirdly, the sex moves do not, by default, require that the sex be with a PLAYER character. Many have no effect against NPCs, but you could change that with some basic homebrew. The moves care if you have sex with a CHARACTER.
are you sure I've been told otherwise elsewhere and I cant find it in the book
>If you want to change it, make it purely a matter of intimacy/emotional connection, above and beyond the physical. If the Gunlugger confesses to the Angel that they used to be afraid of guns, because (CHILDHOOD TRAUMA), and so that's why they use them now, and the Angel reciprocates, explaining that they're secretly happy that the world's fucked up, because they feel special when they help people, and now everyone needs their help, Boom, both trigger their move.
see that makes more sense for most but it makes the Battlebabe and the Brainer's move's not make sense as one deals with attitudes toward sex rather than people sharing personal secrets and the other literally requires physical contact
>>44449303
The thing people don't seem to get is that you don't actually have to play out the sex. The fun part is all the comical stuff leading up to it and how things are between the characters after it.
If you're that uncomfortable with it you can just ignore that part of the game entirely and nothing actually changes.
>>44449775
>I can't find it in the book.
It's toward the back. When they break down every move of every class. The Angel, Chopper, Brainer, and Hocus are the only ones that can't work as written with NPCs. Others have variant effects. (Gunluggers can get the +1, but since NPCs don't roll, they can't GIVE the +1. Drivers' cool roll trigger, but since NPCs can't have Hx, it turns the 7+ into the 10+ effect, things like that.)
>It makes Battlebabe and Brainer not make sense.
Actually, both still work, they just represent different things. The Battlebabe's move is "Other moves don't count." She doesn't do anything of her own. This relates to the idea that a Battlebabe doesn't CARE about your secrets. Maybe she belittles them, maybe she laughs, maybe she just pretends you never said it, whatever. The battlebabe doesn't open herself up, and she doesn't care when you do. She's professional/sarcastic/rude all the time. She's too guarded/hardened/sociopathic to care.
With the Brainer, it actually makes a little more sense, because, as written, their move is kind of stupid. "If you have sex with someone, you get to activate this move you have whenever you're physically intimate with someone!"
"Well no fucking shit! Sex is physically intimate, you idiot!"
"Ah, but you don't get to choose the answers for sex!"
"That makes it mechanically WORSE."
In a modified setting, it can be played as a sort of psychometry, or connective reasoning. The Angel explains how they're secretly happy about the apocalypse, and the brainer deduces that the angel:
-is secretly filled with schadenfreude, but wracked with guilt about it. (secret pains)
- Set-up someone to be hurt in order to care for them. (potential lowest moment)
The need for forgiveness is pretty direct, though the whom could vary.
And of course how their soul is vulnerable.
IT represents to a more direct point how opening up is a risk: granting a moment of emotional vulnerability to a brainer lets them dig even deeper.
>>44449303
There's a reason one of the most common houserules for the game is that it counts from sharing sufficient intimacy emotionally, not just fucking.
The mechanic gets a lot more attention than it really deserves just by existing, really. Because of Apocalypse World's structure, the game requires every major game-influencing action to be a "Move". Because the emotional impact (or even the lack thereof) of characters having sex is major for their interpersonal drama, it follows that it must be a Move. It's not more important than the effect two party members going at it has in other games, (well, maybe it is due to the intense interpersonal drama the game hones, but you get me?) it just gives the thing a name and by doing that makes people think it's somehow a requirement of the experience instead of just a thing that the game acknowledges might happen and has prepared for.
Apocalypse World tends to be more "PvP" than a lot of games, in that the most interesting things in the game are the other PCs and therefore the most interesting thing to do is to have really complicated feelings about the other PCs, for good or ill, and sexual relationships can be part of that.
I still think the "you don't have to fuck, but you have to show each other some serious vulnerability/understanding for it to count" houserule is the best way to handle it without it getting awkward.
And kick anyone who tries to turn it into open ERP in the nards.
>>44449303
I remeber reading a get copy pasty about a rouge and paladin painfully forcing themselves to have sex we each other simply because they needed the mechanic benefit.
>>44456774
I'm interested in this copy pasta if you have it, or can tell me what to google.
>>44458164
Okay let me do my Google fu.
>>44458164
can't find it. But basically rather than forcing a relationship the chracters role played how they felt ashamed and sicken with each other for the act.
>>44449303
My thing with Apocalypse World's sex moves (also applies to the cursing built into rules descriptions but to a significantly lesser level) is that without them I think it would make an A+ intro to RPGs. The mechanics are simple and easy to understand, and the postapocalyptic setting is hugely popular right now (Walking Dead, Mad Max). But then there's these weird, debatably out of place mechanics right in the middle of every character sheet that would make any normalfag you tried to get into this stuff take a step back and wonder what the fuck they're getting themselves in to.
Nobody who's just getting into RPGs is going to take banging other player's characters being part of the game without batting an eye. It's frustrating when it could've so easily have not been there at all.
>>44460226
Also, forgot to mention, pretty much completely removes any possibility of the game being used to introduce kids to the hobby, something I feel Apocalypse World could do a pretty good job of otherwise.
>>44460226
Honestly I'm surprised how little eyes are batted. Apocalypse world is popular with the inndie gamer crowd who normally rip games apart for even the most inconspicuous depict of sex.
This game however literally gives you a sex based power up and everyone seems okay with that.
>>44460386
It's possible that it's just because I'm from a relatively conservative area. Nobody here gets up in arms about Dungeons and Dragons being devil-worship, but if you start throwing around casual sex as an okay thing that really does it for some people.
>>44449663
>when you have naked amazon chick with a sledge hammer
There's nothing that says the battlebabe has to be a woman. Hell, the reason that Formalwear is an option for the battlebabe is so you can have your battlebabe basically be james bond.
>>44460407
True but not really talking about 80s puritans oppose any mention of sex under the guise of been 'anti-Christian' . I'm talking about today's millennia puritans opposed to any mention of sex under under the guise x culture'
>>44460445
heh.
Personally I think sex moves are a bad fit for AW because nothing in the milieu of the genre screams "sex is super-important!" to me; in something like MonsterHearts sex is a lot more relevant, but in post-apocalyptic scenarios?
I've been told that it's because the game is actually about character relations,but that doesn't convince me. After all the ethos of the indie crowd is that if something is put in the rules it means that it's central to the game, and sex does not strike me as something that is central in postapocalyptic media.
>>44460836
>if something is put in the rules it means that it's central to the game
That's really not the indie game ethos because its structurally impossible for everything in the rules to be central unless there's only one thing in the rules.
More like if it's in the rules its IMPORTANT, but importance doesn't say anything about frequency. Sex is fairly rare but when it DOES happen it's important and worth emulating the narrative impact is totally within the indie ethos as applied to post-apoc.
>>44460890
Uh, no. "What is your game about" and that hubbub. These games are not D&D, where you don't use a rule if you don't like it. The rules are meant to be used because the game wants to produce a certain play experience.
>>44460836
>After all the ethos of the indie crowd is that if something is put in the rules it means that it's central to the game, and sex does not strike me as something that is central in postapocalyptic media.
If it's central to apocalypse world then is by definition central to *it's take* on the genre.
Monster Hearts was creepy as hell with it's preoccupation on monster teen sex and how playing a vampire meant having hate fucking people for power ups.
In apocalypse world sex is meant to be a short hand of character's physical and emotional bonds with each. I'm not a big fan of it but the idea is sound.
Also since 'indie game ethos', when did that happen.
>>44460928
Yea, they're meant to be used when sex comes up... Which says nothing about how OFTEN sex comes up.
>>44449303
The Apocalypse is also about values that doesn't mean anything anymore. Social ones, moral ones.
It's for a reason there's "ambiguous" in the physical descriptions. The sex moves all have cool shit in them, did they even read it before going all "this is creepy"? I know I've MCed Apocalypse World for a group of grognard (like, people that are around 50 years old and have been playing since their teens), and they usually do pretty standard Good-only AD&D2. Well they loved it, and the sex move of the brainer in particular was used maybe three times, once on another PC (the battlebabe, who nullified it). T'was great.
>>44449303
>why /tg/? I got the look I've given "That guy" from my group when I pitched this game. Every thing about it is great but putting that much spotlight on player to player sex is just uncomfortable. it's not like we've shyed away from the topic before. We generally play games with R rated material like Shadowrun or Delta Green but this just feels like some one put the Book of Erotic Fantasy in the core mechanics. No one was "offended" it just made me look like I was trying to create a magical realm. I feel it's prudish to dismiss the mechanic but that leaves one female player and four dudes and unless two play gay that's a pretty awkward environment.
Get a new group.
>>44461033
Ironically I think grogs are the easiest sell for sex moves specifically. Part of the problem with sex moves its in a context of rpgs having horror stories of mouthbreathing creepers, and sex in RPGs is often attached to those horror stories, so people look at sex moves and assume it's some sort of mouthbreathing creeper thing by association.
>>44461177
considering your liberal use of hyperbole, isn't sex moves sort of mouthbreathing creeper thing?
>>44449663
Apocalypse World is always kind of high drama weird fashion Mad Max apocalypse over The Road serious apocalypse though.
>>44460226
There's literally an AW Sex Move in the latest Mad Max movie though. Like when Nux and that bride hook up, that's character development and they each change after it.
>>44449303
>>44460407
1) Leave Utah
2) Grow up
