So Khorne is known to hate sorcery. He views it as cowardly and unworthy, a personal offense to him. He tasks his warriors with brutally murdering any mage/psyker they come across.
But have you seen how the Slaughter Priests aka Khorne's holy men work? They channel the power of Khorne through them. In battle, they pray for Khorne to aid them and strike down their enemies, and Khorne answers. Slaughter Priests can dispel magic, cause enemy blood to boil, cause enemies to explode into showers of gore, they can buff their comrades by strengthening their bones and granting them godly strength, they can infuse their comrades and enemies with daemonic rage, and last but definitely not least, in especially bloody battles they can call upon Khorne to hurl a gigantic brass skull at their enemies. This is the Khornate equivalent of nuke.
So tell me guys how is this different than the sorcery that Khorne hates so much?
>>44402225
It's different because he is not actually calling upon the winds of magic. It is not unknown that followers of khorne call for his blessing and he gifts them with the rage and mutation and superhuman strength to shed blood. This is no different. The Slaughterpriest is merely asking khorne to aid the others and himself in battle, and khorne is responding.
Whereas other priests and wizards, especially, call upon the powers of magic. Which is something khorne hates.
It's not entirely fair to compare the slaughterpriest to a wizard. It would be more appropriate to compare a slaughterpriest to another priest, say a warrior priest. Neither calls upon sorcery through study or latent ability, but both call for the aid from their god and wield the power he grants them.
>>44402225
>So tell me guys how is this different than the sorcery that Khorne hates so much?
It's not.
AoS doesn't care about the traditional lore.
>>44402439
>Slaughterpriest is merely asking khorne
>other priests call upon the powers of magic
>only Chaos Gods answer prayers
>thinks Khorne would kill your enemies for you.
>>44402468
Not exactly. The slautherpriest gains his favor from khorne through killing and shedding blood. Hence the 'slaughter' in slaughterpriest. Then with that favor he wields the power granted to him, by khorne, to do more of it.
So he doesn't hide in the back casting divine spells. He's up front massacreing what he can and getting progressively more devastating at it.
>>44402225
Khorne is still a warp god, he can still use the powers of the Empyrean to reward his followers or punish his enemies.
Khorne is actually pretty simple. Are you a dress wearing pansy who refuses to get his hand dirty? Who prefers to scheme and plot instead of beheading fools? That makes you a no-good sorcerer type.
Are you a buff berzerker who enjoys murder and carnage? You're a bro, and bros look out for other bros vis a vis exploding blood.
>>44402225
Difference between Clerics and Wizards in DnD.
>>44402492
And If Khorne sees that he didn't kill enough and yet has the gall to call upon his aid, Khorne would punish him.
>>44402492
It's still using divine or magical powers to smite your enemy, which is what Khorne hates.
It would make more sense if his favour boosted your stats. Made you faster, stronger or just a better killer.
Khorne is all for improving your ability to shed blood. But doing it on your behalf isn't traditional to his lore.
But who cares? /AoS/ can do whatever it wants with the new lore.
>>44402528
>>44402523
>>44402508
>>44402492
I think the biggest argument is the fact that nothing like this has existed for a Khornate force previously.
They've all had a unilateral view on worshippers of Khorne and their use of any form of magic. Which this clearly is.
But /AoS/ wants it, so they make it. OP can try to figure out justifications for using the unit in the game, but there will always be hiccups and breaks. It doesn't fit the origins of the AoS version of the character, but it doesn't have to.
>>44402566
Khorne worshipers summon daemons, daemon summoning is a new psyker power, therefore Khorne worshipers are psykers.
Or we can assume that the Gods of Chaos lack internal reasoning and logic upon close inspection, and that the formation of four Gods of Chaos was done in order to produce four distinct lines of models and that in the fluff Chaos is a formless abstraction that refuses to be pinned down into a simplistic four way split defined chiefly by color palette.
>>44402523
Definitely. As is represented by rolling a 1 when calling upon his power.
>>44402528
>It's still using divine or magical powers to smite your enemy, which is what Khorne hates.
Divine yes. Magica no. Therein lies the difference. We know khorne hates wizards. Since there have been no khorne priests before, we don't know his attitude toward them.
>It would make more sense if his favour boosted your stats. Made you faster, stronger or just a better killer.
That is the case for the fluff, but not always is the fluff represented on rules for the tabletop.
>Khorne is all for improving your ability to shed blood. But doing it on your behalf isn't traditional to his lore.
It's not that simple. Khorne likes the slaughterpriest because his presence causes more bloodshed, especially among his followers. Think of it as the rabble khorne followers watching the slaughterpriest doing what it does best which in turn gets that rabble to fight harder and faster. That's, in a way, a priestly thing.
>I think the biggest argument is the fact that nothing like this has existed for a Khornate force previously.
Well not a unit on tabletop, yes. But various other khorne characters from the fluff could be described as slaughterpriests, but they are just not called the 'priest' keyword. Take a guy who does things the khorney way and inspires others to do the same.
>They've all had a unilateral view on worshippers of Khorne and their use of any form of magic. Which this clearly is.
Agree to disagree on that.
If Khorne didn't use any form of magic than he would have the weakest followers by far. No magic items, no daemon summoning, no mutations, no ascensions for favored warriors.
No helpful prophecies, no Collars of Khorne, no Bloodthirsters etc.
>>44402615
>Since there have been no khorne priests before, we don't know his attitude toward them.
In 30 years of product line, the fact that there hasn't been a Khorne priest should be telling in its own right.
>Agree to disagree on that.
Serious? Khorne hating magic users has been a core element of his character concept. I mean shit, his Brass Collars basically make magic a null issue for you.
I can't really argue with >>44402605 - my background lies with fantasy, not 40k.
But here, reading for all:
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Khorne#Khorne.27s_take_on_magic
>>44402642
>"The forger of enchanted weapons, though deserving of slavery and abuse as all wizards are until the day they die, is an ideal symbol. It is fitting that spell energy be subjugated to and entombed within cold steel, just as wizards deserve to be subjugated to warriors until they lie cold and headless in the ground or else burnt to ash. The magic weapon is a symbol of might's superiority to magic."
>>44402605
Actually, they don't summon them directly. The slaughter and death they cause weakens the veil between realities and that allows the daemons to charge in to aid them.
There is another way in AoS. The Bloodsectors have an icon of Khorne rumored to given to the guys who managed to traverse Khorne's realm and made it to his throne. The Icon opens a gate to Khorne's realm allowing daemons to walk in.
Who gives a shit? Age of Sigmar fluff is unabashed trash, so why bither even discussing it?
>>44402225
Slaughterpriest ain't fuckin doing arcane mathematics to bend the laws of nature to shape the Winds of Magic to his whim.
He's fucking pointing at the guy he wants to explode into a shower of gore and asking Khorne to make it so.
>>44402776
Autism.
>>44402667
>Serious? Khorne hating magic users has been a core element of his character concept. I mean shit, his Brass Collars basically make magic a null issue for you.
You misunderstand. I said agree to disagree in this being magic. You say it is, I sat it isn't. I agree khorne hates magic users. No-one is denying that. The argument is whether or not the slaughterpriest is a magic user, and we are just saying he isn't.
>>44402813
>He's fucking pointing at the guy he wants to explode into a shower of gore and asking Khorne to make it so.
Yeah. THAT'S the problem.
Khorne will give you ever edge if you've earned it. What he won't do is your work for you.
>>44402874
Well, he won't explode your enemy for you unless you shed some blood first in his name.
Because the use of sorcery requires servitude to another. Unlike the psykers who draw the power themselves, sorcery must invoke its powers through deals and commands. Sorcery doesn't make its own powers, it is a slave to the creature that lends it's power.
If you are a sorcerer you borrow power at a cost through pacts and offerings, ensuring you will never be greater than its source.
In this khorne case since he doesn't give his sorcerer powers out and only uses them himself, that means you have allied with a lesser God/being.
To devote yourself To khorne on that level he would grant you the boons of destruction, because of course you do it all in his servitude for blood and murder.
Sorcerers are slaves who will never know their own power.
Slaughter priests do not seek power, they only seek to worship in khornes church.
>>44402850
>we are just saying he isn't.
Here: Who is doing the work? Is the Slaughterpriest himself making the bloodboil, OR is he getting the big wibbly wobbly warp god in the sky to do it for him?
Call it magic, call it divine intervention, doesn't matter. Boils down to the same thing: Khorne doesn't like it.
The fact is, it clearly states that he's asking Khorne to do it for him. It's not the way that Khorne has been displayed previously.
But eh, see what >>44402776 says.
If /AoS/ wants to rewrite 30 years of lore, they've already established they don't give a shit.
Khorne is fine with sorcery now in /AoS/ as long as it's going through him.
>>44402225
The Slaughterpriest is getting Khorne to do it for him, he isn't actually performing magic himself.
Think about it this way.
Your sink just burst so you hire a plumber to fix it for you.
You're like "dude can you fix this".
He's like "ok man give me $60".
The plumber noodles around with a wrench and fixes the pipe.
You asked him to fix your pipe, but YOU YOURSELF DID NOT FIX THE PIPE.
The slaughterpriest prays to Khorne to make people's blood pipes burst, but he himself does not perform any magic.
Why is this hard to understand?
>>44402892
He shouldn't be doing it at all.
>>44402902
>only uses them himself
Khorne doesn't play with kiddy wheels. He might help you out, but he expects you to still do the work yourself.
Why is this even a subject of conversation?
>>44402874
Well you have to spill some blood before he lets you do it.
So he isn't doing the work for you so much as making an equal return on a transaction.
>>44402913
Oh now it all makes sense. You're not interested in having a discussion about this. You just here to bitch about aos.
Now I really regret wasting my time on you.
Farewell.
>>44402935
>Khorne doesn't play with kiddy wheels. He might help you out, but he expects you to still do the work yourself.
>first line on card is "grants visions"
Nope
>>44402930
>Why is this hard to understand?
We understand.
The problem is Khorne isn't a plumber. He doesn't even teach you how to be a plumber. He'll give you pipes and wrenches. Shit, if you're lucky he MIGHT give you The Idiots Guide to Plumbing.
But you better fix that fucking sink yourself.
THAT'S the problem.
I mean, fuck: 30+ years of lore and we've seen all sorts of Chaos Priests. There's actually been Khornate priests and cultists previously - but they've all been devoted to spilling blood in Khornes name.
Khorne's answer to those prayers have always been in physical sort of boons. Making you stronger. Faster. Giving you arms and armour.
Why is this hard to understand?
There has never been Khorne Magic/Prayers like this previously, because Khorne has always been against that sort of shit.
Seriously.
Doesn't the Khorne Daemonkin dex have spells now?
>>44402874
>Dude, dude who do you want to get fucked really hard?
>idk Khorne, how about that fag with the pointy hat
>ok check this out
*enemy explodes in a shower of blood*
>dude you are a sick motherfucker
>>44403035
No. Just the blood tithe. Which is powers granted on the table from slaughtering and blood shed. Powers like fighting better, summoning more, etc.
Waitaminute....
>>44402953
I have no issue with /AoS/ - but my head is not so far up my own ass as to think that /AoS/ has to make rational sense with it's WFB origins.
The summary is thus:
Question:
>How is this different than the sorcery that Khorne hates so much?
Answer:
>It's not.
Simple as that.
Khorne's hatred of sorcery is a pre-/AoS/ character trait. They can do what they want with the character in /AoS/ now and one of them is making Khorne okay with magic.
The idea that priestly prayer is different to magic is a moot one. We could argue back and forwards about all magic coming from the Realm of Chaos, the Gods being parts of the Realm of Chaos, so prayers from the gods are the same as magic just through and extra step. That doesn't matter.
Pre-/AoS/ Khorne was all about martial prowess and feats of arms. He offered boons and aid, but he never did anything for you. That was his point. You still had to prove yourself worthy at every step.
POST-/AoS/ Khorne is undergoing a character reworking. A lot of Characters are. They aren't the same characters they were in WFB. They share origins, but that's all.
If you want to justify it, you can go with >>44402813 or >>44402892 or >>44402946
they are poor arguments if you're taking into consideration the WFB lore for the character, but honestly - you shouldn't. You should be approaching the characters on a fresh plate with no pre-conceptions.
If you're only response is "Durr, you don't like AoS so all your suggestions are invalid", then you should really stop to consider your opinions and wonder if you have any other sort of defense or justification for them. Just for your own sake, anon.
>>44402953
This. We've given you plenty of examples and explanations as to why this guy is still khorne as fuck, but that's now why you're here. Couldn't you just troll the general containment thread like everyone else? The age of sigmar hate threads are getting annoying.
>>44403117
read
>>44403073
The Slaughterpriest is still slaughtery as fuck. No argument there. That wasn't even the subject of discussion.
The question was how was it different to sorcery that Khorne hates.
The problem with that is that the question is presuming a pre-/AoS/ mindset. /AoS/ Khorne hasn't had his magic-hate cemented as strongly.
So the question is a bit of a hiccup. /AoS/ Khorne doesn't have an issue with sorcery. At least, not to the same level of pre-/AoS/ Khorne.
So the question is now either:
>how is this different than the sorcery that pre-/AoS/ Khorne hates so much?
In which case, it isn't. He should hate it.
OR
>How is this different than the sorcery that /AoS/-Khorne hates so much?
In which case, there is no reason to assume that /AoS/-Khorne has a massive issue with magic, as long as it's slaughtery as fuck.
Again, read the post about you.
>>44402225
Wait a minute, did Khorne just steak Weirdboyz from the Orks? He even swapped out the Foot of Gork with the Skull of Khorne
>>44402967
There is zero difference between this and giving someone a fire breath boon. You gain a god's favour and he does supernatural shit for you. Buff spells and offensive spells are both spells.
>>44403193
The skull hurling dates back to Epic. Probably as old or even older than the foot.
>>44402225
>So tell me guys how is this different than the sorcery that Khorne hates so much?
No idea. I thought that magic via the winds of magic and magic via praying to gods was fundamentally the same thing from two different approaches? I mean, I thought that the way the Warhammer gods physically interacted with the world was essential through magic and manipulating the winds on a fundamental, if not intuitive level. Like the foot of Gork.
Or the foot of Mork.
I get the two confused.
Was that question ever answered?
>>44402874
I prefer to think of it as he hates someone so fucking hard they explode, but that might be too cool for AoS
>>44403198
>Buff spells and offensive spells are both spells.
One is a permanent mutation, not a temporary spell.
>There is zero difference between this and giving someone a fire breath boon.
You are literally retarded.
>>44403205
True, but the whole thing reads a hell of a lot like a weirdboy.
>Relic makes a khornate psyker
>it's called raping the fluff
>GW makes a khornate magic man
>it's called fluffy
>>44403073
>POST-/AoS/ Khorne is undergoing a character reworking.
He really isn't, the Khorne in AoS is the same Khorne in Fantasy is the same Khorne (Personality wise at least) in 40k.
As another Anon said this either people still throwing a tantrum about AoS or thinking Khorne is 100% boot straps god.
If Khorne was the aforementioned, he never would give out arms, armor, or artifacts to his followers or bestow mutations upon them. He wouldn't heed the prayers of shamans and northern tribesmen who worshiped him.
This seems pretty damn evident in reading the Slaughterpriest's rules. You roll the dice and get a bonus if any models were killed in the previous turn. Khorne then either grants the prayer beseeched of him or gets pissed off an actively harms the priest rather than just ignoring it.
>>44403538
There is precedence for that kind of fluff in fantasy.
As I recall from the End Times fluff, Skarr Bloodwrath, during the battle in the Woof Elf forest, asked Khorne to aid him. Khorne took his Ebon Sword and stabbed the planet.
>>44403606
>End Times fluff,
That's the thing, though. End of Times is better described as the prologue to Age of Sigmar, not the epilogue of Warhammer Fantasy. The fact that Khorne takes a personal hand is a good set up to the way they were changing the character of Khorne.
>>44403538
>He really isn't, the Khorne in AoS is the same Khorne in Fantasy is the same Khorne (Personality wise at least) in 40k
Both Fantasy and 40k Khorne wouldn't have gone with a magic user - see >>44403356
>As another Anon said this either people still throwing a tantrum about AoS
I think that at every stage everyone who is against the idea of Khorne being pro-magic has stated they don't care about AoS. AoS isn't the issue. If they tried this in Fantasy it would get the same response. They tried it in 40k and it got the same response.
It's a Khorne thing.
Arguing that it's people having an issue with AoS is ignoring the initial question and making it into a strawman argument about AoS.
The most rational response to OPs question is that Khorne as depicted in AoS is not the same as Khorne has been depicted in 40k or Fantasy.
And there is nothing wrong with that. It's a new setting and a new system, it's perfectly acceptable to have a new version of the characters.
TL;DR: AoS a retarded piece of shit gleefully crapping over 30 years of established lore.
Wait, that's what we've been saying since even before the day that failed abortion came out, no?
>>44403691
>Both Fantasy and 40k Khorne wouldn't have gone with a magic user
Except the Slaughterpriest isn't a wizard, it even has the priest keyword and priests mechanically and lore wise are not the same as wizards in AoS.
So basically it comes down to people who for some reason can't differentiate between someone using their own will to harness magic for their own ends and someone praying to a deity for the power to do something or to directly intervene in some manner.
Shit, Warrior Priests were much closer to wizards in Fantasy and even used most of their mechanics on the tabletop, yet I never saw someone accuse them of being magic users. I believe the same could be said of Runesmiths.
Once again as well, Khorne as he has been depicted in AoS is no different from how he has been depicted in Fantasy.
>>44403896
See
>>44403218
The general consensus in Fantasy was that Priests ARE Wizards. Just approaching the same issue from a different perspective. They use the same mechanics. The majority see them as magic users.
Runesmiths are also magic users, but they focus on creating magic items and can't cast major offensive spells.
>Khorne as he has been depicted in AoS is no different from how he has been depicted in Fantasy.
Except now he has no issue with his side using magic, whereas he used to have an issue. And he's started taking a direct hand in the events surrounding his armies.
And the fact that the whole thing came about because all of the Chaos Gods collectively got tired of the great game and changed the way they had been behaving to end the WFB setting.
But yeah, other than that, total the same.
>>44403230
There is no difference. Boiling someone's blood and giving someone a fire breath so he can do it with your magical fire breath? No difference.
You are just butthurt and see differences that are not real because of your autism. I bet you also think psychic powers and sorcery are different.
>>44403929
>The general consensus in Fantasy was that Priests ARE Wizards
And they would be wrong. Priests in Fantasy prayed to their respective gods and asked them to intervene, at no point do they harness the winds of magic.
>Except now he has no issue with his side using magic
Because they're priests, not wizards, and no different than the shamans who would prey to him in Fantasy.
>And he's started taking a direct hand in the events surrounding his armies.
I don't recall Khorne taking a direct hand at all in any battles of AoS and if he did it was probably on the same level he did in Fantasy and does in 40k, making it rain blood and shit.
>And the fact that the whole thing came about because all of the Chaos Gods collectively got tired of the great game
They're still fighting among he other so they're still very much concerned about the Great Game. I'm not sure where this idiotic notion that the Great Game revolved around the Fantasy world or the mortal realm at all and that such things are just another place to play, accrue worship, and new tools sprung from.
>>44402667
>In 30 years of product line, the fact that there hasn't been a Khorne priest should be telling in its own right.
That's not entirely true. There are cult leader "priests" of Khorne in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, in Tome of Corruption, called Cult Magi.
That said, they didn't get spells either.
>>44402967
>I mean, fuck: 30+ years of lore
Silly goose, End Times and Age of Sigmar doesn't care about 30+ years of lore. There's new models to be sold.
>>44403953
>Boiling someone's blood and giving someone a fire breath so he can do it with your magical fire breath? No difference.
>Casting a spell that can be dispelled
>Mutation that lets you physically do something
>Not different
>I bet you also think psychic powers and sorcery are different.
>Thinking psychic powers and sorcery are the same.
Also >>44404088
this.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Khorne being fine with magic.
But arguing that praying isn't the same as magic, or that Khorne has always been okay with magic is idiotic. It's simply not there in the background material.
I don't see why people are having such an issue with the idea that GW are portraying the Chaos Gods in a different way to how they used to.
>>44404119
Let's not pretend that Fantasy always gave a shit about 30+ years of lore either. If it did then where are the gnomes?
>>44403953
>I bet you also think psychic powers and sorcery are different.
If we're talking 40k, they are. Fundamentally so? No. But they're still quite different. Anyone can practice sorcery, while you have to be a psyker to manifest psychic powers.
>>44404159
Discarding stuff here and there is different to canning an entire setting and rewrite the core concepts. If you don't grasp that, you're literally autistic.
>>44404159
Weren't they mention like, once in a WFRP supplemental?
I thought they went the way of the Firmir and the Zoats.
>Slaughterpriests
>Not Murderpriests
Why do we care about Age of Shitmar, again?
>>44404170
It still fits the basic premise that both 40k and Fantasy changed over time.
Not much in AoS that came from Fantasy has changed, it's all pretty much the same, the Chaos gods at least.
From what I can gather being a Slaughterpreist is a mutation in itself, since they have to drink this concoction after every battle and it changes them into what they are
>>44404227
Interesting.
Actually, reading that makes it feel like it's some sort of descent into daemonhood.
Possibly turning worshippers into Bloodletters?
>>44404018
>And they would be wrong. Priests in Fantasy prayed to their respective gods and asked them to intervene, at no point do they harness the winds of magic.
Based on what? It's always been implied that magic is the harnessing of the winds of magic without going through a god as an intermediary.
>Because they're priests, not wizards, and no different than the shamans who would prey to him in Fantasy.
I'd agree they were the same as Shamans. And just like the Shamans, they shouldn't have any magic spells they can use.
>I don't recall Khorne taking a direct hand at all in any battles of AoS and if he did it was probably on the same level he did in Fantasy and does in 40k, making it rain blood and shit.
See >>44403606
>>I'm not sure where this idiotic notion that the Great Game revolved around the Fantasy
My point, which you seemed to have missed, is that something has clearly changed that has made them bored with the Fantasy setting and they've chosen to move on.
>>44403953
Are you fucking serious?
>I bet you also think psychic powers and sorcery are different.
Have you ever read any books?
Any books. Anywhere. Are you even fucking literate?
HOW ARE YOU TRANSLATING YOUR GRUNTS AND GROANS INTO COHESIVE LANGUAGE?
ARE YOU JUST BANGING ON A KEYBOARD WITH YOUR CLUB UNTIL SOMETHING ACCIDENTALLY GETS THROUGH?
>>44404608
Not him but Sorcery and Psychic powers have been the one the same for years.
>>44404638
Dude, both of those are 40k publications.
In 40k Sorcery and Psykers are the same thing, because they don't have the winds of magic.
Magic in the Fantasy setting is not the same as Psykers in the 40k setting.
Sorcery in the 40k setting IS the same as Psykers in the 40k setting.
Saying Psykers in 40k is the same as Magic in Fantasy is like saying Psykers in 40k is the same as Magic in Harry Potter.
>>44404686
>>44404638
In case what I'm saying isn't clear:
>A Sorcerer in 40k is not the same as a Sorcerer in Fantasy.
Hope I cleared that up for you.
>>44404686
Ah..I gotcha.
>>44404546
>Based on what? It's always been implied that magic is the harnessing of the winds of magic without going through a god as an intermediary.
Based on the fact that they themselves can't do anything, they have to ask their deity to aid them. The gods are beings just like daemons and if any magic is being harnessed it is the god who is doing it, not the priest.
Magic does come harnessing the winds and you don't have to use a god as an intermediary.
>I'd agree they were the same as Shamans. And just like the Shamans, they shouldn't have any magic spells they can use.
Good thing these are prayers, not spells.
As for your example, such a thing happened because warriors devoted to Khorne got turned into golden statues without even making it into combat and that pissed Khorne off. He took matters into his own hands and swung his sword, changing back those transformed and killing some of their enemies. It also happened during the End Times, a period when the power of Chaos waxed strong.
It's also a once in the blue moon event, using it as an example of Khorne taking direct part in a battle would be akin to saying that he takes direct part in battles in 40k because he drowned one planet and those fighting on it in blood because he was infuriated after discovering that Nurgle had gone to Slaanesh for aid before him/had also approached Slaanesh.
>My point, which you seemed to have missed, is that something has clearly changed that has made them bored with the Fantasy setting and they've chosen to move on.
The Mortal Realms still take place in the same universe as Fantasy did. The Realm of Chaos went nowhere and thus the Great Game continues, at most the gods just thought it'd be fun to wreck one of the boards they were playing on.
The Great Game is entirely about each of the gods trying to become the dominant force within the Realm of Chaos.
>>44404734
>Magic does come harnessing the winds and you don't have to use a god as an intermediary.
Whether you go through an intermediary or not, magic is magic. Call it a prayer, call it devotion. It's essentially the same as if you were casting magic through a familiar.
>It also happened during the End Times, a period when the power of Chaos waxed strong.
End Times was the beginning of establish the differences between WFB and AoS. Again, there's nothing wrong with changing things for a new game, but you have to accept that things are being changed.
Can you give me any pre-End Times examples of Khorne priests casting magical spells?
>>44404779
>Whether you go through an intermediary or not, magic is magic
There is a difference though whether the power is yours or belongs to another.
If you're a wizard whether a spell succeeds or not is mostly under your control. If you're a priest and pray to a deity the result boils down entirely to whether or not the deity deigns to heed your prayers.
>End Times was the beginning of establish the differences between WFB and AoS. Again, there's nothing wrong with changing things for a new game, but you have to accept that things are being changed.
Right, because the winds of magic and Chaos never ever waxed strong in Fantasy before and allowed things that were impossible to become possible.
Ultimately this is turning out to be a discussion that is going to go nowhere because you can't wrap your head around the fact that asking Khorne for aid is not the same thing as magic.
>>44404810
Can you give me any pre-End Times examples of Khorne priests casting magical spells?
Or even just doing anything similar to OP file.
Call it prayers.
Call it a miracle.
Call it divine intervention.
Is there any examples that you can give to back up the notion that Khorne would do this?
This discussion is going nowhere because you think that having a creature of the realms of chaos manipulate the winds of magic to do something for you, and you manipulating the winds yourself are not two separate situations where the winds of magic are being manipulated.
>>44404810
>Right, because the winds of magic and Chaos never ever waxed strong in Fantasy before and allowed things that were impossible to become possible.
I'm pretty sure, if you check the lore, you'll find that the Fantasy setting never exploded and got replaced with AoS before.
>There is a difference though whether the power is yours or belongs to another.
Whether the power flows through you or another, magic is magic. You'd be better off arguing with Anon. that a god using his power is not manipulating the winds of magic. Arguing that it's not magic because it's a god casting magic rather than a wizard is a weak place to stand from.
It's like saying that shooting a gun results in a gun getting shot, but telling someone else to shoot a gun does not result in a gun getting shot.
>>44405031
>I'm pretty sure, if you check the lore, you'll find that the Fantasy setting never exploded and got replaced with AoS before.
That is in no way equivalent to Khorne swinging his sword.
As for the argument of it being magic, I never claimed for certain that it was magic that was being harnessed, just that if such was the case it's the god doing it and not the priest.
I'm more inclined to believe that since Khorne is an aetheryic entity he is using the power that comes from being such an entity.
>>44405142
>That is in no way equivalent to Khorne swinging his sword.
I think Anon. was exaggerating his case. But I tend to agree in spirit. I can't think of any example from the pre End Times law where Khorne cast a spell as a response to the prayer.
>I'm more inclined to believe that since Khorne is an aetheryic entity he is using the power that comes from being such an entity.
For my games, I tend to follow a similar perspective. I don't think /AoS/ does, though.
>>44402225
Are you actually expecting CONSISTENCY in Warhammer? And you've been playing how long?
>>44402605
Khorne is alright with a eight-hundred and eighty-eight cultists commuting mass suicide to bring forth deamons to reap skulls and spill BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
He isn't OK with some random chucklefucks sorcerer yanking them out of the warp without doing any real work or acting like they give a damn about what khorne does
>>44405166
>For my games, I tend to follow a similar perspective. I don't think /AoS/ does, though.
Except for Slaughterpriests abilities being the result of prayer and not using AoS' magic mechanics.
>>44405221
>Except for Slaughterpriests abilities being the result of prayer and not using AoS' magic mechanics.
What's that got to do with anything?
Wait, are you arguing that /AoS/ views Khorne as an aetheryic entity and that he is using the power that comes from being such an entity?
If you're trying to bring up the 'Prayer is not Magic' argument, then arguing the mechanics for the system is a weak one. But eh, whatever floats your boat. As long as it makes sense to you, does it matter what anyone else thinks?
>>44402225
>So Khorne is known to hate sorcery. He views it as cowardly and unworthy, a personal offense to him.
Thanks to a DnD thread about bow paladins, I learned that that sort of fluff doesn't matter, so I'm fielding nothing but khornate sourcers.
>>44405258
>nothing but khornate sourcers.
I like that idea. A bunch of magic users that love the blood god and are devoted to his worship, but he just fucking hates them and does everything he can to get them killed.
Why would a worshipper of Khorne want to use anything other than their own hands to rip the enemy apart?
>>44405562
blades=more blood for the blood god
and more efficient blood which is also more blood
>>44405583
>Efficiency for the Efficiency Throne
Khorne must love women.
>>44402468
>>thinks Khorne would kill your enemies for you.
>Thinks Khorne would not kill
>>44405609
>Thinks Khorne needs to kill your enemies for you
>Thinks Khorne doesn't have his own shit to deal with
>Thinks Khorne isn't sick and fucking tired of trying to find new spaces to fit in all these goddamn skulls into his chair.
>Thinks Khorne doesn't give his worshippers boons, arms and armour in the hope that they'd get themselves killed and he'd finally get some peace and fucking quiet.
>Thinks Khorne wouldn't kill you for asking him to kill someone for you.
>>44405597
But women aren't efficient at all.
>>44402225
he is different because those powers do not actually manifest from him.
this doesn't mean khorne isn't a hypocrite and will do everything in his power to do shit, even use the fucking magic he's made of.
what he doesn't like about sorcerers are their petty schemes and tricks to avoid direct violence I bet.
khorne sorcerers best sorcerers.
>>44405663
>Hasn't figured out how much blood a woman sheds via period over the course of her lifetime.
>>44405609
Khorne personally decapitated every celebrating soldier on one planet that one time.
>>44405666
New Khorne.
Khorne 2000.
Diet Khorne.
I Can't Believe It's Not Khorne.
>>44402225
It's the difference between asking and taking.
As far as Khorne is concerned, the winds of magic are the property of daemons, therefore mortal sorcery is theft by nature. It's stealing power that isn't yours because you're either too weak to accomplish your goals with your own strength or too unworthy to earn the gift of that power.
Slaughter Priests are different because they go through the proper channels and are subject to Khorne's will. Sorcery is usurpation, priesthood is service.
It's a similar deal in 40k. Khorne hates psykers because they aren't the source of their powers; the Warp is. A psyker claiming that he bested an enemy by killing him with mind bullets is like someone saying that they beat a guy in a fight by talking one of his friends into stabbing them. The psyker didn't really do shit; he just forced one of his betters to serving his goals in a disgusting perversion of the natural order.
>>44405682
Read...like, any other post in the thread.
>K-KHORNE IS A HYPOCRITE MAYBE!
What is the point of these threads?
Khorne is not a cool guy, he is into skulls and genocide, a little hypocrisy is nothing.
>>44405682
>Slaughter Priests are different because they go through the proper channels and are subject to Khorne's will. Sorcery is usurpation, priesthood is service.
The problem isn't the idea of a Khornate priest. It's that Khorne has never traditionally rewarded service and worship with boons like smiting your enemies for you. Traditionally, he gives you the means to do it for yourself.
>>44405682
Khorne is just a hypocrite.
He is made of magic, gives magical weapons and powers to people he likes, sends minions he made from magic to kill people and kills people himself with magic. Now he also kills people with magic for people he likes.
>>44405741
>a little hypocrisy is nothing.
The problem is if you add the potential for a god of chaos to be hypocritical, you rob something from the god. It's like if Ulric suddenly said 'You know what, I'd rather you stopped fighting and started painting'.
These are not characters that should be able to contradict themselves to such a stunning degree.
That being said, this is /AoS/. They are well within their rights to redefine characters and change them to suit their needs.
>>44405597
>Khorne must love women
>originaljoke.jpg
>>44405762
>The problem is if you add the potential for a god of chaos to be hypocritical, you rob something from the god.
Like what? They are evil soul hungry monsters.
>>44405750
He's a consistent hypocrite, though.
From the very beginning, one of his central tenets has been "Might makes Right, and since I'm the mightiest motherfucker around that means you best shut the fuck up and do what I say, bitch."
>>44405795
Like the notion that the Chaos Gods are not mere monsters or daemons in the warp, but something greater. Like, say, gods.
>>44405816
Since when can gods not be hypocritical or monstrous?
>>44405816
Huh? There has been no god represented that isn't to some degree hypocritical.
Anyway, the chaos gods are manifestations of the shittiest aspects of humanity. That means that there's hypocrisy baked into them.
Hello.
I am Valkia the Bloody. What's going on in this thread?
>>44405839
Since the Chaos Gods have always been emblematic of their core ideals?
And this issue doesn't even cover that - Khorne hating magic use is iconic. Taking it away is like changing Mario's profession from being a plumber to an accountant. It adds nothing to the character and robs it of what it was.
The Chaos Gods were never supposed to be people anyway. They should be eldritch and unknowable. If you can apply human traits to them, you're doing something wrong.
>>44405816
>gods can't be hypocritical
Greece called, they asked for their sides back.
Oh, and I've got Egypt, Rome, Islam, and a couple of the more dickish Japanese gods waiting on the other line.
>>44405875
>Taking it away is like changing Mario's profession from being a plumber to an accountant
>>44405890
I'm not saying that Gods can't be hypocritical - they are inherently human characters.
I'm saying the Chaos Gods can't be hypocritical. It's like saying Azazoth or Shub-Niggurath can be hypocritical. They just ARE. They act according to their nature, without choice or issue.
>>44405909
EXACTLY.
>>44405875
>Since the Chaos Gods have always been emblematic of their core ideals?
Hardly.
>Khorne hating magic use is iconic.
He hates wizards. He still does. Age of Sigmar makes a distinction between priests and wizards.
>The Chaos Gods were never supposed to be people anyway. They should be eldritch and unknowable. If you can apply human traits to them, you're doing something wrong.
Khorne is all about hate and anger and rage. These are all very human traits. In fact Chaos essentially revolves around human traits.
>>44405924
>It's like saying Azazoth or Shub-Niggurath can be hypocritical.
Azazoth dreams the whole of existence, which includes the concept of hypocrisy. Additionally, he will wake up if his couriers, who are also part of him, ever stop playing, which means he both wants to wake up and stay asleep.
Shub-Niggurath is also perfectly capable of hypocrisy. Despite encompassing fertility, I've never heard of a pregnant woman being spared where another would be killed.
>>44405875
>Khorne hating magic use is iconic. Taking it away is like changing Mario's profession from being a plumber to an accountant
I'm confused, how is it "taken away" just becase of a few priest asking their lord, god and in the end, everything they live for, for a little aid?
It's not unheard of that the Gods will help their followers, although they've either have to be really important, or find them at their best of moods - probably both, really.
Honestly, I think it's fine. He isn't drawing power from another realm, he's just murdering a shitload of enemies, then stops for a second to ask "Hey, Khorne, I've killed about 80 dudes, think you can give me a hand just for a second?"
And yes, I know that isn't following the "khorne wants you to do it yourself", but don't forget that Khorne used to be the god of Martial combat and Honor as well, way back. Things change, both in fluff and out of fluff.
And if I'm gonna be 100% honest, I think it's good that they're opening up some more doors with khorne, because lets face it, there hasn't been anything new done with him or his followers in gods know HOW long!
>>44405937
>Age of Sigmar makes a distinction between priests and wizards.
This. A priest is not a wizard. A CLERIC is not a Wizard. Stop being so buttmad about all of this.
>>44405875
>They should be eldritch and unknowable.
Umm, no.this isn't true in the slightest. We're not talking about lovecraftian mythos elder gods, we're talking about the vices of man made manifest by the warp.
>>44406019
>>44406005
The problem isn't the priests - it's the idea that Khorne would answer them with magic.
>>44402225
I always took it like this, khorne is made of magic, he can't hate scorcory itself, but he hates scorcorors,those who use magic as an excuse to not fight as a warriors, you can use magical or psionoc might but you better damn use it in the way a khornite, would use it
It's not fucking sorcery, what's hard to understand?
Praying and asking for divine deed is much different than forcing the arcane warpmagic to do your beckoning.
While it may be mechanically similar to magic in regards to the game, that's because they're going for a streamline vs having a dozen different rules to make something that isn't magic act kinda like magic.
When a Slaughterpriest rolls low, that is Khorne ignoring or declining their request. Killing enemies is what Khorne likes, so that acts as an offering in exchange to boost the roll. If the priest makes a request Khorne doesn't like AND has spilled no blood as offering, the priest gets punished. (rolling a 1)
I can't help but think that if the slaughterpriest came out pre-end times, op wouldn't be making a thread about it. Then again aos hate isn't always that logical.
I got into an argument once with an anon who hated aos because he blamed responsible for gw's pricing. He seemed to forget or ignore that the pricing hikes came way before aos.
It feels like the same argument with op.
>>44406145
Read
>>44406035
and
>>44405031
>>44406156
Oh no, they would have. Relic came out with a Khornate Psyker and got ripped to pieces for it.
The issue isn't /AoS/, it's the idea that Khorne would respond to any prayer by casting the equivalent of spells and not just giving the priest a big fucking axe and pointing him at the dudes that are pissing him off.
/AoS/ doesn't even factor in, except as a reasonable answer as to why it's okay. IE: Khorne in /AoS/ is interpreted differently than he was in WFB. Which is fine. I'm surprised so many people have a problem with this and feel the need to argue that Praying and Casting a Spell are TOTAL DIFFERENT AND NOT AT ALL THE EXACT SAME THING FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.
>>44406233
>Oh no, they would have. Relic came out with a Khornate Psyker and got ripped to pieces for it.
really, though? I mean, people called it assinine for sure, but Kyras was a pretty well-written character, fleshed out well and was generally pretty cool.
Ask me, even a Psyker/sorcerer can follow khorne, as long as he doesn't use magics of any kind.
The way I see it, Khorne's priests get away with it because they pay up front for the right to do magical shit by slaughtering people and draw from that, while sorcerers take out a loan for power and pay it back in instalments with rituals and sacrifices.
Basically Slaughter Priests use debt cards, sorcerers use credit cards, and Khorne hates dealing with interest rates and rewards points and credit ratings and all that other shit when he could just throw all the skulls you've earned him in a pile and pull a few out when you ask for a favor.
>>44406233
These kinds of replies are fucking moronic because it assumes every kind of divine action is sorcery. By that notion, every action Khorne does from giving mutations, boons, and daemonweapons to providing passage for daemons would be sorcery, which they're not.
The entire discussion is one based on people not understanding the logistics of it all, trying to yell LOGISTICS DON'T MATTER when they do is fucking idiotic.
>>44406329
>every kind of divine action is sorcery
Every kind of divine activity is a manipulation of the winds of magic, yes.
>By that notion, every action Khorne does from giving mutations, boons, and daemonweapons to providing passage for daemons would be sorcery, which they're not.
They are all manipulations of the winds of magic, yes.
It's not like there is a dude sitting in another room throwing shit at you. The way the gods interact with the setting is through the winds of magic.
>>44406434
>Every kind of divine activity is a manipulation of the winds of magic, yes.
But it isn't.
Dwarfs hate magic, distrust it, and are even described as an anathema to magic.
Yet the runelord captures magic into runes and casts lightning from a giant magical anvil. Magic is trusted less than the machinery of the engineers guild, yet runelords are held in higher light and reverence than the engineers.
What raped 30 years of fluff was 30 years of fluff. The warhammer settings are known for their weird contradictions and exceptions to the rules. This is not new to aos.
>>44406604
>Implying runes are like pussy elven magic.
Next time you may as well say that a dam and a river are the same.
>>44405875
>They should be eldritch and unknowable
This has never ever been true.
Khorne cares not which way the blood flows.
It seems silly that this would exist with the mechanics it has.
But AoS doesn't give a fuck... Remember this game is aimed mostly at new war game players.
So all this "fuck the fluff" and overly simplified shit almost makes sense...
So fuck man you have a mass of Skaven and they all have the same to hit to wound of say 5+ (I don't know what skaven have) that makes sense against big guys but not if its a scenario of Skaven vs. Skaven...
What you end up with is this long winded fucking slap fight.. But you're GW veterans if you stuck around so you probably have a line of guns so my scenario probably wouldn't be happening but you get what I'm talking about.
>>44402453
>AoS doesn't care about the traditional lore.
This.
Khorne has thrown brass skulls to kill enemies for his followers since the most recent daemon armybook/codex, no biggie.
>>44408448
did one of his followers ask him to throw that skull or did he do it because he was angry?
>>44402225
>Khorne gets wizards now
>"But they aren't wizards, because even though their functionally identical to wizards they're called "Slaughter Priests" instead of wizards!"
Whatever. I mean, they already blew it so what's the big deal at this point?
>>44410587
"Hey Khorne, see those guys over there? Yeah, those ones? They said you are a milk drinking cakeboy."
[ SKULLING INTENSIFIES ]
>>44410587
What is the Crucible of Blood? Why would Sigmar care about it? Why would he send his army there, rather than to one of the great Chaos strongholds? Or some other shrine?’
>‘Because it’s more than just a shrine. I know because I witnessed its creation. I was almost ready to leave when Khorne grew tired of the Nomad City’s insolence. He sent a powerful general…’ His voice becomes unsteady. ‘A being from Khorne’s own realm. It was like an army trapped in a single body. It dwarfed even the giants who guarded the Nomad City, but it couldn’t defeat them. Even from the very edge of the steppe I could see the battle. It raged across the heavens– three times the daemon attempted to level the city, smashing the walls with an axe as big as the watchtowers, and three times it failed. The titans wouldn’t yield. I realised then that I should have gone to help them, but it was too late.’
>He shakes his head, and I get the sense he’s forgotten me. The emotion in his voice is now unmistakable– a potent mixture of rage and regret. ‘The daemon was called Khurnac. Its rage was so great that the ground bled in pain. The ground. The giants of the Nomad City had bound their city with powerful wards though, and their walls refused to fall.’
>He’s speaking quietly now and I have to step closer to hear. ‘After the third attack failed, Khorne arrived to take matters into his own hands.’
>‘You saw a god?’
>Giraldus stares into the darkness. ‘After a fashion, yes. My rites were finished and I was already leaving, but I caught a glimpse. Gods spare me, I caught a glimpse.’
>I find myself caught up in his story. I can almost imagine I’m there with him, witnessing the fury of Khorne himself.
Whenever he feels like it.
Nurge will cripple his enemies in long term
Tzee will cripple them.
Slaneesh is ironically okay. Dedication is nice? Debauchery not so.
But Khorne? Khorne will throw down skulls from his throne, but the worthy will survive.
