"His mind appeared to work on an entirely different plane. While humans had to stumble through their choices, hoping the one they made was the best possible, the angel simply knew. He was capable of total mercilessness, of deceit and exquisite cruelty, but the results of an action commanded by Sabathiel would always be better than any alternative course of action could have brought. The angel, however heartless and wrong he seemed at the time, was always right."
Why aren't more outsiders like this in tabletop games? This one in particular is Sabathiel, the leader of the Bannor (Paladins who accidentally got sent to hell and broke out) from Fall From Heaven. Just reading that text made me really reconsider how to use angels and fiends in my games.
>>44377525
Nobody likes Mary Sues.
>>44377540
Calling that a Mary Sue is like calling Asmodeus one. This sort of stuff is definitely something an Archangel or Empyreal Lord could do.
Also IIRC in that universe the Angels and Demons weren't really good or bad, they were just locked in an eternal dick measuring contest with eachother and using the mortal races as pawns to fight eachother.
>>44377525
1. Such characters frequently overshadow the players
2. 'Perfect' characters can easily be seen as boring
3. >>44377540
4. Many, many games don't work at a power level where such outsiders are appropriate
5. Many other games simply don't have outsiders in them
So really, you need a high powered D&D-like game, where you manage to make the Angels flawed or are happy (and your players are happy) with your perfect angels, and where the players work at a level where they can still be the protagonists of their story when such beings are involved.
>>44377525
>the lord works in mysterious ways
Angels are tricky business, because as we're familiar with them they're basically just extensions of God's will, but in DnD/other they get lumped into being servants of good gods who are much more like the classic greek/roman pantheon in having faults and basically just being powerful humans.
So either angels are God, in which case they're incapable of failure, or they're just powerful beings who are very confidant and capable, so better at stuff than humans. Incapable of failure seems pretty boring dmpc territory though.
Either way, there ought to be a really good reason for an angel to be doing anything the players have much to do with, and still have the players retain a sense of agency.
>>44377617
Not suggesting using them as a PC or DMPC, I'm thinking more on the lines as a lore character or an extremely powerful adversary.
Though number 4 and 5 are definitely true.
A note that the quotation in question is from the perspective of a priest. It's unclear if the angel in question is actually that powerful, and another angel of his power was killed in a scenario from that mod.
>>44377617
This.
Either the players are not on the level of importance/involvement of the setting for such a being to matter to them, or they are, and the being overshadows them, rendering them patsies at worst and errand boys at best.
>>44377637
>very confidant and capable
Perhaps the quote from OP could be how most people see the outsider, but in reality they're just able to convince others the terrible things they do are correct?
>>44377695
The former being the answer to OP's question. Archangels and Empyreal Lords don't show up in adventures because they are nearly godlike in power, and when they do show up, they're glorified quest-givers. Which isn't a bad thing, the quote is pretty much exactly how I picture beings of that powerful operating, it's just that you can't use that very often in a game.
Too awesome and too powerful to use, and if you did use them, the PCs would try to kill them.
>>44377703
I like this. Powerful outsiders with an aura that strongly influences mortal's perception/opinions about their activities. Angels radiate righteousness, demons radiate satisfaction of desire maybe.
>>44377703
The quote DOES say "appeared".
>>44377810
I'm imaging a demon telling a warrior to burn down an orphanage because doing so would grant the arsonist great power, and then an angel telling someone else to burn down an orphanage, but because one day one of those orphans will become the next Lich Hitler and cause millions to die.
In reality, they just wanted to see who's servant will make a better fire.
>>44377525
>Saves Paladins who for some reason got thrown into hell.
>Commands them to do evil acts because ends justify the means.
>>44377862
>Angel and Demon evil dick measuring contest.
>Oddly similar to Book of Job
What if flinging those paladins into hell was the "Good" deities doing, and not an evil ones? What if the Angels wanted the Paladins to go on an endless crusade against everything "evil" in the world, and used their aura to convince them what they do is righteous?
I think I have a campaign idea...
>>44377525
Honestly, I think that this could work. Say an angel sets about causing a chain of events that results in untold amounts of suffering, suffering that winds up affecting the various PCs in different ways. Through their shared suffering they find each other and get to talking. They know which angel wronged them, but they also know that angels, through their connection to God, are infallible. Yet being PCs, they decide that there must be retribution; to them, it doesn't matter if there is some Cosmic Good that will come about as a result of their suffering. Cue a raging against the heavens plot.Of course, as angels are infallible, their quest for vengeance may very well be what the angel was intending to instigate to begin with.
>>44377927
>>44377923
This is some Xanatos gambit shit.
>>44377927
Would demons be infalliable as well?
>>44377927
Stealing this.
>>44377785
Sounds like an entitled player who doesn't understand good roleplay
>>44378635
sounds like most players to me.
>>44377525
FFH is awesome. Everyone, but most especially 40k fans, should read this
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296178
>>44377525
I agree. With all those amazing depictions that demons, and primordial evils get, the should really rev up the other sode pf the divine scale
>>44378924
I'd love to play a tabletop game set in the FFH universe.
Wish Kael would set up a proper campaign setting sort of deal.
>>44379323
Like there are a ton of eldritch horrors or domineering evils that can break the minds of the good. Why can't good aligned deities do the same, for the greater good?
>>44379399
The lesser of evils is still evil.
>>44379464
That certainly applies on the small scale, but if an entity such as Rovagug, Cthulhu, or the Four Horsemen is threatening to literally end reality, you might want to compromise on your tactics.
Though I suppose that's why the Good deities in every setting tend to defer to Asmodeus whenever they're dealing with some unkillable cosmic horror.
