I know this is more of a /pol/ question, but I fear treading their waters to find out their answers.
This has been bothering me for quite a while now, is it actually racist to hate these assholes, or is it just a rational response to their general MO?
Also, fuck Drizzt, he's a damn Mary Sue.
What is your view on this topic /tg/?
Elves are fictional, so hating them can be racist or entirely justified or even some combination of both.
In a fantasy realm I don't think racism is a pushing social issue. Draw certainly deserve disdain. For real life opinions, hating fiction has no consequences so I don't think it counts as anything to hate dark elves.
>>44341870
Hating elves in general is your duty as human being.
depends on the setting.jpg
>>44341907
This is more of the response I was looking for.
Because everytime I've run into Dark elves, different settings, and sometimes different DMs, they are almost always assholes.
>>44341870
>hating a whole ethnic group for the actions of their stereotypes
I don't know anon, do you think that resembles at all the exact definition of racism?
>>44341870
Well Drow are written as being singularly evil and inherently drawn to sadism and slavery, so unless you don't find that moral reprehensible, you're fine for not thinking they are perfectly compatible socially with what you find comfortable.
>>44341870
Define dark elf dude because there's a fucking lot of different kinds and it depends on the setting you know what I'm just going to stop here because we've had this thread a billion times already and the answer is always "it depends" especially when it is so fucking vague and can be interpreted in so many different ways and oh look you mentioned /pol/ yeah nice dude real fucking good job there son yeah dude great fucking GREAT.
Using internal logic, yes, it is racist/speciest to hate dark elves. What you're saying is "those damn dark elves, raping our churches, burning our women!"
Now you may be right, that as a whole, dark elf society does encourage that behavior. However, if you say or believe that ALL dark elves are like that, you're being racist/speciest.
>>44342029
Well, I said dark elf because I forget if they were called Drow outside DnD.
>>44341921
Don't bully elves.
I don't really think people appreciate just how evil the Drow are supposed to be. Drizzt may be to blame for some of that, and even Salvatore admitted that he regrets his part in dispelling some of the wickedness that drow are supposed to embody.
Drow are almost like the Aristocrat Joke, in that writers try to compete on just how depraved and despicable they can portray the Drow. No act is too shameful, no crime too heinous, anything and everything is fair game when it comes to describing just how evil the Drow are supposed to be.
The Drow can be compared to the Melniboneans, except while the Melniboneans were simply consumed by their pride and power and lived debauched and hedonistic lives with an utter disregard for anyone else's happiness or well-being, the Drow actually take this a step further, actively hating all the surface races, especially other elves, while waging war against all other creatures in the underdark. And, if that wasn't enough, they also fight amongst themselves, ranging from assassinations and betrayals to open wars between the Drow cities.
You'd have a hard time finding anyone who doesn't hate the drow, including other drow. It's a nearly universally accepted understanding, in that the Drow hate everybody, and everybody hates the Drow. While exceptions do exist, even the majority of the drow renegades that escape Lolth's doctrine of genocide wind up being evil, choosing to worship one of the other drow deities, who are all evil save one.
In a fantasy world, hating the Drow isn't just senseless bigotry. Nearly everyone has a personal reason to hate the Drow, whether it's because they lost a friend or family member in a raid, the Drow underdark activities pushed monsters towards the surface, or simply the understanding that underneath their feat, an army of powerful and merciless elves is growing every day, hoping to overcome their weakness to the sun so that they can flood out onto the surface, killing or enslaving all the other races.
>>44341870
not really.
It's about as racist as hating <insert country here> for having <insert human rights violation here>
>>44341870
>Oh look, Drow.
>they're probably going to try to kill us
>probably gonna try to kidnap us and feed us to fucked up spider dieties
>running around with poison arrers n sheeit
You can call it 'racist', but the fact is that in-game this is literally textbook behavior for Drow. They're originally monster races for a reason. They have evolved in opposition to you, so you can feel as guilty as you like for not wanting to invite them in for dinner, but you're still dead as dirt if you do.
>>44342071
>not even fantasy is safe from this cancer
>>44342427
> A noble family is sitting down to dinner, with an unexpected guest that their son brought with him
"So, miss Rinloth Taen, what exactly do you do for a living?"
"Oh, I sacrifice you and your kind to my fucked-up crazy spider goddess in order to gain her favor"
"Ah... Dear, would you pass the potatoes, please?"
"What would happen if you didn't do that?"
>"Oh, she'd turn me into a crazy mixed-up spider monster"
"And, what exactly do you get if you suceed in sacrificing all of us to appease your goddess?"
>"She turns me into a crazy mixed up spider monster"
"Oh, so it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation then"
>"Yeah, honestly, I'm just hoping that if I do get changed, it's into a giant Theridion Grallator"
>>44342137
If they weren't made to be bullied, why do they look so small and cute?
>>44341938
>they are almost always assholes.
Because this was Gygax's intent.
>>44342029
OP literally mentions Drizzt. You're fucking retarded.
>>44341923
>>44342029
>>44341870
It is not racist or specieist to hate the people who pillage, enslave and tortures others for fun and profit.
It would be racist/specieist to hate a random Drow who didn't do this just because of his species.
>>44341938
They're often antagonists, yes. Doesn't mean anyone's racist for hating the antagonists.
Now, if someone see a drow in
>>44342427
Hey, being racist/specieist just means you're judging an individual based on your perception of their race/species.
Thinking that a half-angel is inherently good because of their holy parent is specieist, for exemple.
Same reason killing an orc because he's an orc is specieist, but it's reasonable to kill one because he's attacking your village
>>44341870
By the objective, non-sjw definition of "racism", it is racist to hate an entire race as a whole, leaving no room for individuality within the race.
By the retarded sjw definition, if you are white then it's racist, and if you aren't then it isn't.
You're welcome,
/pol/
>>44342600
OP here again, I'd like to point out that whenever half-angel/celestials showed up in the campaign, they also turned out to be assholes.
>>44341870
Well, they hate everyone who isn't them... Are bent on eternal vengeance on behalf of their evil goddess, keep coming up from their surface world, kidnapping folks into slavery and committing massacres, and are utterly ruthless to one another to boot, what's not to hate?
But yeah, fuck Drizzt. Renegade/exile drow seems a possibility, but a case like Jarlaxle's makes a lot more sense. Someone who retains the drow philosophy he was brought up with, and has it slowly altered by the surface world as he spends more time there, but always translated through that core dark drow outlook. Drizzt, on the other hand, is somehow "born good". Now that's true racism, believing people are born good or evil (short of genetic sociopathy or what not), and not raised or twisted into said by their culture and experiences.
>>44341870
It is absolutely racist.
It is hating based on race.
Now, and more importantly, is it justified?
In any game where actual gods can programme a race to do certain things, prejudice isn't silly, it's common sense. If something is genetically evil, then calling it evil because of it's genetic make up is completely legit.
So, is it racism, without a doubt.
More importantly though in most fantasy games, racism is correct.
>>44342715
Well, given that the entire race is the result of a curse of an evil goddess, it'd kind of make sense that they'd be "born evil". Having one "born good" would be an aberration, yes, but that's kinda the point.
Plus this is D&D "ethics" we're talking here, where good and evil have physical manifestation, divine spells can detect even non-supernatural evil, and the classic Shakespeare quote is utterly void as a result.
>>44342715
>Now that's true racism, believing people are born good or evil (short of genetic sociopathy or what not), and not raised or twisted into said by their culture and experiences.
To be fair, some D&D species have a predisposition for the behaviors covered by the evil alignment.
For exemple, in 5e, it's made clear that an orc doesn't have to be a murderous, violent scumbag, but that they still have violent urges that are pretty hard to control. Gorloz the orc baker may not be a bad person, but he'd still have the urge to massacre someone who's being a shithead to him. Doesn't mean he will indulge in them, but it's kind of a gambling addict having to resist gambling.
I mean, it's logical that Grumsh didn't create his species to be pacifists.
>>44341870
Hating any individual based solely on their race is the literal temptation of racism.
Whether that's wrong or unjustified is another matter entirely.
>>44343046
>temptation
Fuck, that was supposed to read denotation. Fuck autocorrect right in its stupid face.
>>44341870
>Racism
>Bad
Fuck off nigger
>>44342888
>Plus this is D&D "ethics" we're talking here, where good and evil have physical manifestation, divine spells can detect even non-supernatural evil
I'm glad 5e has gotten rid of that
>and the classic Shakespeare quote is utterly void as a result.
The one in "the Merchant of Venice" ?
>>44341870
Just to be clear: are you asking "is it racist that the black-skinned elves are the bad guys?"
I mean, I've seen people think it was.
>>44341870
It can be, but it's subtle. With the default setting assuming that an average draw is a terrible person is reasonable, it only becomes racist when you assume it's intrinsic and not a result of their shit culture.
>>44343163
Ah, you mean like muslim arabs and african americans?
>>44342427
/pol/ plz leave
>>44343163
>He's from Drowistan. They feed people to crazy spider gods there. He's probably fed a dude or two to their crazy spider gods. Better steer clear...
>He's a niggerelf, like those dudes from Drowistan. They feed people to crazy spider gods there. He's probably fed a dude or two to their crazy spider gods. Better steer clear...
Explain how these are different and if so why the distinction should matter to someone who just doesn't wanna get eaten by crazy spider gods.
>>44343359
One makes me chuckle, the other is boring, that's the difference.
>>44343180
>>44343359
The difference is how extreme the behaviour is and how all encompassing it is. The fringe extremists here are the cults to the good draw goddess.
>>44343521
But I'm just a guy trying to not get eaten by crazy spider gods.
Is showing a stranger good will worth taking a not statistically insignificant chance on my own life?
>>44341870
>is it actually racist to hate these assholes
Yes it is, because justified racism is still racism. But why does it matter anyway, most settings featuring them have racism as a socially accepted behaviour.
>>44343541
You shouldn't extend the benefit of the doubt unless there's a reason for such doubt, like being part of a non drow group or signs of Eilistraee worship.
>>44344421
Well, the random lone drow drinking at the bar is likely not part of drow society, I suppose.
Racism isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially in world with races that are literally forged by gods to be evil. It can also be positive or negative. There's plenty of human elfaboos... Or there must be, or there wouldn't be so many half-elves running about. Unlike the half-orcs, I don't think their daddies have a reputation for forming raep parties.
>>44343108
"There is no such thing as good and evil but thinking makes it so." - Hamlet, Act II, Scene II
...not so much so in a world where you have pic related, and the like.
>Imagine an ocean, a deep one. Imagine the water is black and dark like North-Sea mud. Imagine things living in it, thickly-knitted limbs that churn like a mower motor left tipped up and switched on, cutting blindly in long grass. You can’t see the limbs, or the things to which the limbs attach, but you can feel their movement in the thick black sea. They regard you. They hate you. A hate so deep they tear frantically at their own flesh in substitute for reaching yours.
>Imagine the sea restrained by glass. Like the walls of an aquarium built on titanic scale. You stand before the sea that rises out of sight and curves to the horizon on each side. You can hear the surface fretting up its waves in storm a distant mile above your head. The glass holds everything back. Inside it you can see brief churnings of that midnight high-pressure world, raging at your presence just beyond its reach.
>Imagine that the glass is beautifully made. Etched and engraved with perfect smiling forms. Beyond it, the black water, but, when the light slants just-so across the pane, a field of translucent harmony gleams, worked there on its surface by hands and minds that leap the greatest human art. A genius casually employed that vaults with ease the best that man has ever made. Crystal signature of thoughtless superiority. So perfect are its fields and processions that when seen, even glimpsed in a trickle of lateral light, you want to live there, with those frozen people, inside the surface of that glass.
>>44344702
>This is the Drow.
>This is how much the Drow hate you.
>This is how much they control that hate.
>The offence of your existence cannot be easily expressed.
>The Drow are not angry that you live, they are amazed. The knowledge of you stabs them in the flesh with every recollection and event. Though they know it well, the wound of your existence will not close. Each memory of you, each experience, all evidence of your continued being, is like a knife twisting in the skin.
>No other species could absorb such titanic contempt and remain sane. They would be reduced to raving berserkers, living only to kill, directly, the loathed enabler of their pain.
>But the Drow are old, they know much of patience and control. Nothing is done without intent.
>They can speak of you. They can name you. They can even see you in the flesh without breaking down. Some can even speak to you as if you were real, as if your name was something other than the froth-flecked gargling of a beast that dreamed it had a soul. As if your language did not taste like shit on their tongue.
>Everything that can be done is being done. The situation is difficult, but there is time. There is always time. They must endure, as they have for so long.
>They know an hour will come when horrors fade. When nothing else thinks or speaks upon the earth or in its veins. When even the memory of any other monstrous thing has been expunged. Then. Finally. There will be only Drow.
>And they will be at peace. They will live to see it. They do not die.
>>44344718
>>44344702
Y-yeah, but they're so hawt!
>>44344718
>>44344702
Stahp! Jinraxna no evil! Jinraxna just want to make toys for tots!
...also want learn common better.
>>44344845
>Drow Jar Jar
>>44342238
So... The drow were suposed to be what the Dark Eldar manage to be?
>>44343140
Aren't they purple?
>>44342536
Why would I use that as my basis? The fluff sucks and is just rehashes of other shit anyway.
>>44341870
waaaaat? OP, elfs are fictional and drow (because i assume that is what you are talking about) are portarayed as assholes to be hated. You cant be racist for hating a fictional thing, shadowrun has not happened yet
If you you believe them inherently and nigh universally inferior, it's racist
If you believe their culture and actions sculpt them into sociopathic lunatics that actively work against all that is good and right in the world, it's rational.
Hate the practices, not the people.But fuck drow.
>>44344659
You sure?
>>44346115
>
If you believe their culture and actions sculpt them into sociopathic lunatics that actively work against all that is good and right in the world, it's rational.
>gangsta rap culture, "Keepin' it real."
>>44347221Your analogy would not be wrong
>>44346381
>not pledging yourself to a deity of sex
Yes.
If it is not racism to hate them, then it is not racism to hate africans for much the same reasons.
It is, yeah. How could it not be?
>>44341921
Thank you Mr. High Priest of Zarus.
Although I'll remind you that official doctrine is pitying elves and other nonhumans for their complete inferiority. It's half-breeds you're supposed to hate.
>>44342029
I know that you know what punctuation marks are since you used one. Learn to use them.
Racism is a meaningless word these days, unless you count statistical literacy as meaning.
