An alien intelligence wants to test a human for basic understanding of logic and scientific principles to gauge mankind's level of development. It does not communicate in any human language.
What sort of riddles might it pose?
>>44332275
Pythagorean Theorem would probably have a place
Light as both a particle and a wave.
>>44332317
So draw a comic strip of triangles and squares?
>>44332275
Chemical equations.
>>44332332
I can describe an experimental setup to prove that, but I can't convey it in iconography.
>>44332275
Where the planet lies in the solar system.
>>44332366
This could work as symbolized atoms and bonds.
>>44332275
Ones that a GAU-8 can probably answer.
>>44332382
This is great! Easily conveyed symbolically, requires basic astronomy, classic.
The makeup of an atom.
The process that powers the sun.
The value of universal constants (pi, speed of light, etc.)
Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.
>>44332429
Can you draw me a picture?
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_model
>>44332275
Probably mathematical problems, in binary notation. Math is universal language as its principles are unchanging. Binary is a safe choice as it can be expressed in two symbols, and any intelligent species ought to be able to understand what the communication is about when it is a stream of just two different markers.
>>44332632
Yes, but how many characters can read binary?
I'm coming up droids here.
>>44332632
The problem with binary is how we convert strings of those markers into more complex messages.
It could be useful for math, but not any form of language.
Also you'd still need operators.
What does an alien "+" look like, and is it "="?
>>44332800
>>44332807
Hence why only mathematical problems would be done in binary.
Everything else would be most likely done in some sort of rudimentary pictograms.
>>44332886
What do eight dimensional creatures look like as pictograms?
>>44332429
Why would an alien race that developed and adapted to vastly different conditions use the same cellular structures as life on Earth?
Somebody made this First Contact guide that I thought was interesting. The Pythagorean Theorem is really the core of it, the easiest way to show someone without any language similarities that you understand geometry.
>>44332936
The number of dimensions the creatures have was not supplied. It's fairly safe to assume that any aliens that would even think to contact us would have the same number of dimensions as us.Still begs the question of what happens if they don't have eyes
>>44332836
You could probably present them with a series of single digit equations using dots instead of numbers to demonstrate what our symbols do, then have the dots listed next to numbers to let them know what they represent.
I'd make a quick image of what I'm talking about, but I'm stuck at work atm.
>>44332275
Understanding water displacement. Would have to be a 3d test though.
Water seeking its own level.
Using heat to create or disperse a vacuum.
Magnetism to create DC current.
>>44332429
>The value of universal constants
>implying they use same numeral system
>>44332382
>>44332422
This is literally the plot of The Specimen by Tim Stout. The story even has the taxidermied remains of a Carboniferous millipede, a pterosaur, and a Neanderthal that failed the test.
>>44333347
Well, they're ratios, yeah? They just have to compare an appropriate set of magnitudes, represented however. Bars or areas or whatever.
>>44332800
you can't "read" binary unless you mean using it as numbers and even that way how will you identify the operators? I doubt ayylmaos use the same codifications as us.
>>44333347
You can easily show them how we count numbers in a decimal system with symbology, and if they're not retarded they can convert. Hell, I can convert from Hex to decimal to binary easily enough.
>>44332275
Anyone else reminded of The Dig?
>>44332275
The story Diamond Dogs by Alastair Reynolds covers something kind of like this.
>>44332275
They wouldn't because they're not pretentious like that.
I mean, fuck's sake, do you think this is how anthropology is done? If anything, they would just try to live with us and understand our ways like any decent species.
>>44332836
Any arbitrary symbol will do. For illustration purposes, I'll use dots and random keyboard symbols.
° & °
' & '
'' & ''
''' & '''
~~~
'''''''''' & ''''''''''
[ ] & [ ]
«° °» & °
«° '» & '
«° ''» & ''
«° '''» & '''
~~~
«° '''''''''» & '''''''''
« ° [ ]» & [ ]
«' °» & '
«' '» & ''
«' ''» & '''
«' '''» & ''''
~~~
«''' '''''» & ''''''''
«[ ] '» & «' [ ]»
«[ ] ( )» & «( ) [ ]»
'''''''''' & «''''' '''''» & ««'' '''» '''''» & «' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' »
!° °¡ & °
!' °¡ & !° '¡ & °
!'' °¡ & !° ''¡ & °
~~~
!''''''''' °¡ & °
![ ] °¡ & °
!° [ ]¡ & °
!' '¡ & '
!' ''¡ & !'' '¡ & ''
~~~
!'''''''' '¡ & !' ''''''''¡ & ''''''''
![ ] '¡ & !' [ ]¡ & [ ]
!''' ''¡ & «'' '' ''» & ''''''
!'' '''¡ & «''' '''» & ''''''
(A bunch more examples I can't be bothered to type)
![ ] ''¡ & «[ ] [ ]»
![ ] '''¡ & «[ ] [ ] [ ]»
~~~
/° °\ & '
/' °\ & '
/'' °\ & '
/''' °\ & '
~~~
/[ ] °\ & '
/° '\ & °
/' '\ & '
/'' '\ & ''
/''' '\ & '''
~~~
/[ ] '\ & [ ]
/' ''\ & !' '¡ & '
/' '''\ & !' ' '¡ & '
~~~
/' [ ]\ & '
/''' ''\ & !''' '''¡ & '''''''''
/'' '''\ & !'' '' ''¡ & ''''''''
/'''' ''\ & !'''' ''''¡ & ''''''''''''''''
/[ ] ''\ & ![ ] [ ]¡
/[ ] '''\ & ![ ] [ ] [ ]¡
~~~
° & °
| & '
¥ & ''
€ & '''
|° & «!/'''' '\ '¡ !/'''' °\¡» & ''''
(And I can't be bothered to finish.)
>>44335961
Uhhh, did you have a stroke?
>>44336047
No; it's an example of what an alien might do to establish a symbolic basis of arithmetic with a human it has no common language with. You should be able to work it out from looking at it hard enough.
Based on that, given this, what is the correct response?
«|€° /«| ¥°» ¥\» & __________
>>44332371
sure you can
rays emanating from an object which is light the light hitting two slits
and the levers on the other side have to be pulled into positions that approximately resemble the interference pattern
>>44336186
An aneurysm.
>>44336186
You have mental problems.
Also there's the pythagorean theorem experiment.
you have a triangle mounted vertically so it can rotate to its sides attached we find three transparent glass containers connected to each other. and each having the same depth and the area of the side they're attached to cubed.
water from the biggest one can be distributed in a lossless way to the other two showing that the areas really are equal.
>>44336333
That's not an experiment, that's a toy.
Did you see it on QI like everyone else?
>>44336186
great challenge, but if you're too lazy to type out all the examples, i'm too lazy to understand it
your effort is much appreciated thought, and i understand what you meant.
>>44336328
>>44336277
Clearly I must have autism, because I'm not seeing what I did wrong there. I was just illustrating what >>44333057 was talking about, using weird keyboard symbols to ensure it would be as "alien" as our own notation would be to somebody who hasn't seen it before.
I thought it would be a neat, although difficult, puzzle.
>>44336408
Neither. It just comes off as extremely weird.
>>44336369
I'm on a phone keyboard, tapping individual symbols one by one. That took like 30 minutes to type. I really don't have the patience to write it out fully.
>>44336408
Firstly using ~~~ to denote continuity could be confusing.
Secondly this system seems a bit convoluted.
Thirdly if I'm reading this right you're not making clear the order of calculation.
>>44336455
Yeah look into that with a mental health professional.
>>44336186
>«|€° /«| ¥°» ¥\» & «|€€€€»
Assuming that's how you write the simplest form.
>>44336444
Oh. Sorry.
If anyone cares, it's a simple illustration of basic arithmetic. The first bit establishes the equality operator, then addition after that, then multiplication, then exponents, then a brief bit of a base-4 numeral system.
>>44332275
Five dimensional protien strand entity, give name unto which self-existence manipulated via quadratic maniples in a position within space time relative before, dual maniples within space time TEMPORAL, and triadic maniples within space time that is representing yet to be.
>>44332275
Any test an alien gives to see if you are sentient or sapient is one you probably want to either never touch or fail hard.
It's probably a test to see if it needs to send a relativistic kill vehicle your way.
>>44336554
Hawking pls
>>44336483
I don't think that's correct.
Translated, the expression is (16 + 12) + (1+ 8)^2. That'd be 109, which comes out to 64 + (2 * 16) + (3 * 4) + 1, or |¥€|
>>44336349
Maybe i dunno.
But then again it IS an experiment just like fitting the correct shape into the correct hole is an experiment.
and its suitable for the premises of this thread.
>>44336607
it's not an experiment. it's a toy. The premise of this thread is pretty gamey and stupid.
>>44336624
Toys are the most efficient rudimentary method of teaching
>>44332967
Because there is no evidence to the contrary no matter where we've looked. Is it possible that we just haven't seen it yet? Sure. But with what we know, it's most prudent to assume they are similar to us.
>>44333057
Ideally, do it in binary to avoid confusion. But it's understandable if you can't.
>>44335961
This is what our symbols would look like to them. Avoid them whenever possible.
>>44332275
The simplest would be physical constants and relations and patterns. Stuff like radians, pythagorean's relationship (use squares), and arranging stones from smallest to largest.
>>44336458
Order is explicitly made clear. «a b» is (a + b), !a b¡ is (a * b), and /a b\ is (a^b).
So everything comes with nested parentheses built in. It is rather cumbersome to use if you don't have a stack-based memory, but it's supposed to be alien.
>>44336645
Not that kind of toy. At most it's a visual aid.
>>44336624
>we will not discover the ultimate best way to IRL communicate with actual aliens in a thread on a traditional gaming forum.
Makes me think of this comic.
Sauce in image name.
>>44336606
yeah, I glossed over the base-4 deal. My bad
>>44336661
you're assuming a left to right reading with /a b\
>>44336741
No, just that the pretense of them wanting to test us is ridiculous. Anthropologists don't make natives play games for their amusement.
>>44336742
This is also an issue. A puzzle is either instantly obvious or nigh impossible.
>>44332275
>Cft f 'prime numbers'
>zero results
Guys, come on here.
>>44336828
>implying if we found an inferior species we wouldn't fuck with them endlessly
The dog and the cat say hi
>>44336907
>"inferior species"
Oop, found one. It's you.
>>44336828
That's because all natives are assumed to be humans and thus have the same basic understanding that we do.
BUT
-anthropologists do silly looking stuff if trying to communicate with people because language is not universal
-biologists do play silly games with animals to test their understanding of things. humans would be a lot MORE alien to aliens than animals to us. they could start trying to communicate with our houses or computers because for all we know they are sentient crystalline structures.
>>44336871
.
..
...
.....
.......
...........
.............
.................
.......................
.............................
>>44336828
Yup
>>44336828
I'd say a problem posed by an alien would be nigh impossible to me simply because of my bias of expecting complexity from the alien puzzle.
>>44336952
>humans would be a lot MORE alien to aliens than animals to us
No that's a failing of your imagination. Whatever they are, they will be very similar since they would have to have evolved in similar conditions because there's only so many conditions that life can develop in, especially complex life.
>>44336982
What does the answer turn out to be?
>>44337123
Not necessarily. We don't really have any empirical evidence that our genetic variance is inevitable since we very well could have ended up in a shallow valley next to a deep trench in terms of optimization but early evolutionary pressures didn't allow for large enough variance for us to crest that hill. I'm also digging the Christmas Captcha. I hope Google AI gives me a nice present.
>>44337175
there is none.
the aliens are evil and just reclaimed him to sacrifice him to some eldrich abomination.
typical shitty pseudo-philosophical comic bullshit
>>44337175
Never mind. Read through it. Bad end ambiguous shit. Laaammmee
>>44337225
Convergent evolution has already shown us that when different organisms are forced to adapt to similar environments that they will share a similar morphology.
See also, the evolutions of eyes.
>>44337263
Yeah I read through the comic. Fucking lame.
>>44332275
>Does not communicate in any human language.
Tries to teach a human its language.
>>44337263
Not everything has to have a reason.
>>44337175
For what it's worth the answer is supposed to be the circled figure in the top right panel I believe.
>>44337336
Shouldn't be hard. It evolved the same as us.
I know its been said a lot in the thread, but I personally would use this.
It's simple and as close to universal as you can get.
>>44336186
°€\»please don't zap me, xeno scum
I just read False Positive. Do they ever go back to the astronaut or is his story over?
>>44337357
Yes. The pentacle. IE its Satan or Eldritch horror bs
Bad end, lame
But thank you for trying to help
>>44337358
If it has the technology to make contact and the curiosity to want to know how 'smart' the collective species is, I'm sure it has the patience and tools necessary to establish communication in a way it would think a human could understand.
>>44337394
Lose the 90 degree mark. It doesn't make it any clearer in the image (aliens wouldn't know what it means) and only serves to confuse.
Also plotting out some prime numbers (both in ticks and binary).
0001 | (1)
0010 || (2)
0011 ||| (3)
0101 ||||| (5)
0111 ||||||| (7)
1011 ||||||||||| (11)
1101 ||||||||||||| (13)
and so on. It provides a basic means of conveying the idea of a place holder digit (0/zero) while at the same time showing we understand prime numbers and binary.
>>44337427
No, I'm afraid. Though there are other stories about astronauts I don't think any more feature aliens.
It's a series of unconnected horror stories. Meant to be pulpy and vaguely lovecraftian. Very seldom do stories have any connection to any other.
And they're of highly varied quality. Some stories are genuinely disturbing while others just fall flat. Possibly being told in the wrong medium, possibly just up to reader preferences. But all in all I like the comic.
>>44337489
It wouldn't be any more complex than any language humanity has invented.
The pythagorean theorum is great for telling the aliens that you know some basic math concepts, but what about actually communicating with them right away? Well, our computers use binary, and I can say with a pretty much 100% certainty that their computers would also use binary, so we can just skip the formalities of learning their math by just going straight into binary.
So we can show some simple math like this, using sequences.
0 *
01 * 1
10 * 2
11 * 3
100 * 4
101 * 5
110 * 6
111 * 7
1000 * 8
1001 * 9
1010 * 10
From there you can immediately define both of your systems of math based on its relation to binary. If they use Hex, base 10, base 3, or base 20, all of them can be converted into binary. We for example, are most familiar with Base 10, so it would be useful to show the aliens our 10 arabic numerals, and then learn what glyphs they use for their base.
>>44337357
One of the pieces he got was too long to fit inside the circle.
>>44337530
I don't simply my speech for any animals that understand commands either.
IT'S HIP TO FUCK BEES!
>>44337536
Starting with unary is even easier.
•
••
•••
••••
•••••
••••••
•••••••
••••••••
•••••••••
••••••••••
From there, you could start establishing new symbols, like equality
• = •
•• = ••
••• = •••
(And so on, until the pattern is sufficiently obvious)
From there on, you can start introducing things like variables, true/false, and basic arithmetic operations.
>>44332275
Surviving genocide.
>>44337674
And then you can get tricky with ordering
[/spoiler](ﾟヮﾟ)
>>44337752
Use ctrl+s next time.
>>44337764
>>44337764Fuck. I've been writing spoiler tags for the past few years.
>>44337536
>I can say with a pretty much 100% certainty that their computers would also use binary
you're pretty sure about alien computing, are you an alien lizerdman infiltrating our society?
>>44337823
You can understand most of the universe from just a small set of axioms.
>>44337833
wouldn't quantum computing allow for non binary operations?
>>44337833
is one of the axiomatic truths of the universe that all computers are binary, lizerdgod?
>>44333006
>asking someone kidnapped in the middle of the night by strangers not to panic
Any human being with a self-preservation instinct would panic if a HUMAN did his. Nevermind an alien.
>>44337861
>quantum computing
lel
>>44337869
You can make a simpler computer system than 0 and 1?
>>44337764
HOOOOOOOLEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOL
I never knew about that.
>>44337965
I think we found the new lizardgod.
GETEM!
>>44332275
This is very difficult. For instance, you could show them examples of various scientific facts and see if they recognize them - but so much of that is dependent on the formulation of them and what they're used to. Someone familiar with the integral form of Maxwell's equations might easily not recognize the differential form in terms of potentials, or the covariant relativistic formulation, even though they're describing the same physics. Newton's laws of motion could easily be geometrized in terms of space-time curvature just as general relativity does for Einstein, but few would recognize that unfamiliar form. Our notation for chemicals is far from universal, atoms not actually balls and molecules not actually being balls connected by sticks, and simple diagrams of atomic orbitals might easily be misunderstood. Quantum mechanics comes in like three different formulations, none of which look similar but all of which are equivalent. (You've got the Schrodinger wavefunction form, the matrix form, and the Feynmann path integral form)
Likewise, the obvious tests of basic logic depends on the analogies, inductive leaps, and metaphors that are obvious to you being obvious to an alien mind as well. Familiarity with the visual language and intuition involved makes a big difference - this is part of why IQ tests on different cultures tend to come out abnormally low. Mathematical tests and proofs could overcome this, but require you to establish familiarity with the notation and axioms involved.
Some large-scale physical systems big enough to actually be seen, like planets and falling weights and solar systems, could be tested on rather universally. And geometric proofs and constructions are a good universal as well.
>>44333006
>>44337906
Going further, any alien race capable of seeing us as sapient would have figured out we built the ISS and the satellites orbiting the planet, as well as spotting our cities (which use geometry) and recent transmissions LONG before capturing some random neckbeard for study. Any alien that got close enough to Earth to beam me up would see the Hubble telescope, and would likely have passed the probes we have further out in the solar system.
In short, if they actually need to study me in person, they're either a lot less capable of problem-solving than we assume, or they don't actually care and they're doing it for giggles before exterminating us all anyway.
Beyond even that, any species that doesn't realize WHY I'd be afraid under the circumstances described displays a lack of empathy comparable to actual sociopaths.
>>44336952
1 isn't prime.
>>44338607
That depends on how you define the tern 'and'.
>>44338709
No, it does not: any serious book or reference on number theory will define prime numbers in such a way that 1 is excluded.
>>44337265
>Convergent evolution
>posts picture of an artificially bred dog
>>44332275
"Sir! We've finally deciphered the only carving found in this alien ruin!"
"What does it say?"
"There's a symbol for 'Think', and another for 'Above', paired with 'Limit'."
"In English, please?""Overthinking"[\spoiler]
>>44338607
Yes because it conflicts with some other definitions but i'd rather have the definition of prime be clear and simple than some nice axioms be simple to explain. fuck that
Why haven't we been contacted yet? Is it even feasible to contact whatever might be out there?
>convergent evolution
LEMUR POWAH!
>>44337764
>>44337787
>>44337965
I bet you newfriends don't even know about filtering, ctrl+z, ctrl+y, style changing, or the thread-watcher.
>>44340569
Well if general relativity holds then there isn't a wide margin. You can communicate TO another planet with years to centuries of delay. But to go there? It would take so long, generations of travelers would have to be committed to the task. It becomes a really complex problem, not just technically, but socially and logistically.
>>44339149
"Any Number greater than one that cannot be divided except by 1 and itself."
Though mathematicians argued about this subject. I'm not totally sure why 1 isn't considered Prime, never been good with math, I think it would fuck with Multiplication because 1*anything is whatever the latte number is.
>>44340569
Not if you consider the distances between stars. Just finding an alien civilization would be like trying to find a single slightly off colour grain of sand at the bottom of the ocean, then imagine that grain of sand is 7,000,000 light-years away. If we sent a signal the that grain it would take 7,000,000 years to reach them and all life on it may have gone extinct in the millions of years it took for light and other forms of radiation to reach us
>>44340570
>ignoring twig technology
Enjoy your imminent extinction there, monkey wannabe.
>>44340589
>>44340645
So basically, the type of alien civilisation we stand the best chance of ever interacting with would be a nomadic one, drifting among the stars in ships containing entire societies?
>>44340602
Nope. It' just that they have made other laws that would have to exclude 1 from the list of primes.
And they rather changed one definition (that of primes) than that of the other things to "primes without 1"
I personally think it's shit and i personallly include one with it and change the other definitions.
Then again i'm not a mathematician, i'm a physicist/engineer student.
>>44340645
>>44340589
a) there are ways that FTL travel is possible even with general relativity holding. the ship blinking out of existence and reappearing elsewhere, alcubierre drives or similar ideas without a massive energy requirement.
b) aliens could be a lot more common than any of us things and the problem of not having received any communication from them could still be explained.
>>44340713
on the subject of a)
Converting a small gas giant into energy isn't a "massive energy requirement"?That's the estimated amount of energy required to use and alcubierre drive
Could you ever really trust an alien?
Trusting humans isn't even always a good idea, and they're of the same species...
>>44340713
Negative gravity where?
I always thought the first few primes are kind of cheap shots. I mean sure, they're indivisible. Big deal when you can count the numbers lower than yourself on your fingers.
>>44340735
a couple years back it was the energy of a regular sized black hole, and a decade before that the estimated energy requirement exceeded the amount of energy in the universe.
>>44340813
Now you're just throwing unrelated things together.
>>44340823
My point is that with enough scientific advancement it would seem possible to actually bring the energy requirement down to manageable levels.
I'm not saying that it definitely IS possible but it is not unthinkable that a sufficiently advanced species could figure it out.
>>44340823
Nah he's right. The latest advancement came in 2013 where the energy required was shrunken to smaller than Jupiter.
>>44337916
> actually we are already doing it ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Wave_Systems
Fuck ya Canada... Quebec does not count as Canada...
>>44341125
fuck quebec
>>44332275
> a human
You know, if they just take any random human, there's a pretty high chance they'll take someone who has no idea of current advanced scientific knowledge.
Though, to answer your question, you could look at how researchers gauge the developmental level of crows and chimps for example. They give them boxes and containers containing food that need progressively trickier manipulation in order to open and get the food.
Then you measure intelligence by how far the human gets before he realises you're making him perform circus tricks for peanuts and flips you off.
>>44341265
>>44332429
I could give you the 100 first decimals of pi in base 8, doesn't make it less valid, but it does make it real fuckin hard to check up on. Us using base 10 is probably completely arbitrary and based on us having ten fingers.
>>44340602
It's normally defined as any number with exactly two factors - one and itself. Defining one as a prime mucks up some moderately complex maths, like the Prime Sieve, which is one of the basic ways of generating lots of primes, and which falls apart is 1 is prime.
>>44341320
well if it has to be typed into a keypad
especially a keypad that makes a sound if you press a button
it's going to be pretty damn easy too figure out which base you're in.
>>44341325
this is what i meant.
>>44332345
If they have a fight, triangle wins.
Just saying.
>>44336236
>rays emanating from an object
That assumes a LOT about how you perceive icons.
>>44341599
rays radiating away from an object is always radiation.
and radiation of any kind does undergo interference.
>>44341605
Nope, and nope. 0 for 2, sport.
>>44341605
>rays radiating away from an object is always radiation.
Right, and two dots above a semicircle is always a face.
>>44341624
>>44341628
okay give me ONE other thing that radiates away from an object into every direction and is not radiation.
the physical laws are the same all across the universe
radiation is stuff that goes away from an object in all directions.
granted it could be tentacles and stuff, but the difference is made clear when the rays hit the double slit.
>>44341845
Radiation just means fucking fast. Photons and electrons can be radiation, but so can neutrons, helium, hydrogen, and anything else.
Our icons for radiation tend to be warnings and look like wheels. Vague circular symbols could be anything, in nature everything is round.
>>44341971
>Radiation just means fucking fast. Photons and electrons can be radiation, but so can neutrons, helium, hydrogen, and anything else.
Radiation literally means that something RADIATES away from something.
A material can give off photons, or alpha or beta particles, or high heavy ions, but they're always going to go AWAY from their point of origin and naturally in EVERY direction unless you use some special apparatus to focus it.
>>44340683
Maybe it's our job? To discard earth in attempt to indulge our everlasting wanderlust, and live between stars, each separate ship evolving in its own way to the point of losing any similarities, thus seeding universe with alien races with one common ancestor?Or maybe it has already happened?
>>44336647
>Because there is no evidence to the contrary no matter where we've looked. Is it possible that we just haven't seen it yet? Sure. But with what we know, it's most prudent to assume they are similar to us.
The most prudent thing to do would be to make as few assumptions as possible. Math(and certain ways of representing it, such as unary notation) we have good reason to believe are universal among technology using species. It would be a huge leap to assume that the same is true for biology.
>>44340737
do you have any choice in this circumstance?
>>44342019
>A long time ago, in a galaxy soon to be our Milky Way
>"Capt'n, the tank is full again."
> "Damnit, we really got to get a bigger shitter! There's a sun coming up, get ready to crank the purge valve."
>"Now?"
> "Now! - Oh dear. We hit the third planet. Oh well."
>>44337358
>Shouldn't be hard. It evolved the same as us.
We needed rosetta stone to understand hieroglyphs, and the ancient egyptians lived in an environment we have concrete understanding of.
>>44342056
>Capt'n, we accidentally sentient life
>>44342058
>You won't believe it, but I rolled another critical success.
>Well I don't know what to tell you, it's just some ancient text.
>So I should just make shit up?
>>44341535
Did... Did you just reference They Might Be Giants?
>>44342124
Start with shape puzzles to confirm the humans can complete the puzzles and work from there. Presumably the more advanced aliens could work out that humans respond best to visual stimuli and then they can explain a basic language starting with shapes and introducing numbers, operators, whatever. Math or chemistry would get you pretty far in understanding their advancement.
If it's some puzzle left behind you'd want to go with something universally basic since there's absolutely no communication between parties.
>>44332275
I've read anMLPfanfic where almost an entire chapter was solely addressing this very question.
They write down simple maths questions in their native language and then again represented by dots, getting increasingly more complex, for each other to solve.
>>44332382
And how do you represent the planets?
Would they recognise an image we would draw?
If we drew the solar system and an arrow to earth would they think we used to have a Dyson Disk in the system?
How would they even convey this question to us?
>>44341535
The women will win all fights.
Holy shit, someone else has read Flatland.
>>44342124I hoped he did.
>>44332275
A simple yes or no question in binary.
>>44335961
Okay, got it, it's really strange at first
>>44342058
>we needed rosetta...
Because there were no more egyptians. If an Alien race is curious about a humans understanding of logic and scientific principles, that implies it is observing humans and is still alive.
Not to mention, I'm not sure why a test or riddle would be necessary. Humanities collective achievements are self evident in our everyday tech.
>>44342581
Read The Specimen by Tim Stout.
>>44342581
Push the correct button.
>>44343160
The biggest, right?
>>44332275
This thread confuses me.
>Aliens come down and abduct us, then wish to test our intelligence.
>they're too stupid to look at our fucking space craft and go "huh, that's probably not an accident"
>>44343232
Roll reflex.
Why would they even bother testing us
Just monitor us for a week and they will see an understanding of physics, electrical energy, logic, math and the rest
Yeah it will be with foreign symbols but they'd be a pretty shitty race of alien overlords if they cant be arsed to translate symbols in to something they understand
>>44343160
Trick question, that's clearly a wrong picture. Earth is the biggest of the inner planets, yet that picture clearly shows Mars as the largest.
>>44340713
Is THEORETICALLY possible.
I have yet to see proof otherwise.
>>44333057
yeah you'd establish that a symbol does such and such a question might be in binary
2+2 = 4
2-1 = 1
2*1 = 2
4/2 = 2
5*1 = ?
where you establish what the symbols mean and then require solving
>>44343275
you can't make assumptions on local phenomena from your own central evolutionary experience
suppose the spaceship was the intelligence of a race evolved on a planet with plentiful metal, and the beings inside
just some sort of semi sentient helper goo symbiote.
>>44341125
I'll believe it when it's not just corporate PR.
Rolled 30 (1d100)
>>44343301
>>44340713
A. No. You are greatly mistaken. The alcubierre drive was intentionally written as a rhetorical set of equations. It is a "perfectly spherical cow" equation, not one that Alcubierre expected ANYONE to take seriously.
B. Life takes far too long to evolve for even bacteria to be common anywhere in our galaxy. Because of the time scales necessary and the incredibly long periods of stability, which are rare in the universe, we should expect no more than one technological species per supercluster.
Please stop mixing up science with the singularity religion. It makes us all look like reddit-tier dolts.
>>44343591
>you can't make assumptions on local phenomena from your own central evolutionary experience
Yes you can. It's called Science. What you're talking about is Solipsism.
>>44343411
Perpetual motion machines are theoretically possible with the "exotic matter" known as Maxwell's Demon.
Doesn't mean it's real, does it? The world is too complex to learn by wikipedia alone.
>>44336742
Even worse, these math grad students may think their math degree is worth anything but what if the aliens only can see in vibrations and hear only strobing lights?
You aint gonna sperg out over math if its in a completely alien method of communication.
>>44337536
Our computers only use binary because of the physical properties of the components they're made of. We might drop that ourselves in the distant future, with quantum computers.
With aliens, there isn't even any guarantee that they use discrete numbers. Maybe they've always known that the properties and processes of the natural world are continuous, and it never occurred to them to count. Maybe using algorithms to do maths is just a crutch that all intelligent species swiftly abandon. The fact that all the physical constants are irrational in our number system should have suggested that it's kind of shit.
>>44343722
You're not making any sense. Anything that evolves in an atmosphere will develop hearing, anything that develops where light is prevalent will evolve sight. This is simply because traits are formed at random and selected by their adaptive strength. So all it takes is one eyed creature and it'll dominate the food chain. That's why eyes have evolved several times in separate organisms.
Stop pretending like this is the 1400's and the universe is unknown to us.
>>44343726
No, they use binary because that allows you the greatest amount of computing power. Babbage engines used binary too. What, were you trying to make some argument that aliens would never use silicon and only silicon chips use binary because you have no idea how a computer works?
Elements are the same no matter where you go in the universe. Aliens and Alien tech will be incredibly similar to us, if we ever find one on our same evolutionary timeline, which is remote enough to be practically impossible.
>>44343663
>B. Life takes far too long to evolve for even bacteria to be common anywhere in our galaxy. Because of the time scales necessary and the incredibly long periods of stability, which are rare in the universe, we should expect no more than one technological species per supercluster.
You're full of shit. Life appeared on Earth practically immediately after the surface stopped being an ocean of molten lava. For that matter, we have no idea how long complex life takes to appear on average, since our sample size is 1. For that matter, to the best of our knowledge, Earth is in no way uniquely advantageous position when it comes to life. Life could have easily appear on Milky Way billions of years before it appeared on Earth. Literally the only argument for rare life that has any weight is that we have yet to find any other planets with life.
>>44343804
You're a fucking idiot because you completely forgot the fact that the earth has had several extinction events that reset genetic diversity.
Care to explain how every planet in the universe experienced the exact same setbacks?
>>44337265
Except thats cause we share a common ancestor.
A dog and a cheetah are both mamals from a very close tree.
>>44343826
So the fact that the greyhound happened to look like a cheetah, when all it was bred to do was run fast, is just a coincidence to you?
Or is there a limited amount of efficient physical forms? Do fish and dolphins not share a similar physical shape?
>>44343825
Have you any proof that the said extinction events - and a specific sequence of them, no less! - are in any way or form a requirement for a technological civilization?
>>44332275
If it were me, I would make some tests chambers. Like in Portal, buttons and doors, each using a new ability to solve or a combination of previous shown abilities.
>>44343878
Wait, wait, wait.
Are you saying that you believe technological civilization is the goal of evolution? Technological civilization is a complete fluke of evolution. It required an incredibly unlikely series of events that would in most cases just result in the extinction of the species.
I'm saying that if we didn't have any extinction events, that the entire earth could just be covered in a mat of algae. Or maybe the same rare events could have unfolded a billion years earlier, in which case we'd all be extinct already.
The chances of finding two planets with life at the same stage is less than a fraction of a percent. Functionally impossible.
Look it up, i'm not just making this up. http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/aliens.php#id--Alien_Tech_Level--Apes_or_Angels
>>44343765
Firstly, good eyesight is a rarity in the animal kingdom.
Second, life could evolve on an different planet with differences from the earth. Go away with your late 80s debunked science.
Third, I was referencing a really good /tg/ sci fi story with a really good alien race.
>>44343945
>Firstly, good eyesight is a rarity in the animal kingdom.
Eyesight is all that matters. Even mollusks have light sensistive patches of skin. Even that adaptation is extremely beneficial to survival.
>Second, life could evolve on an different planet with differences from the earth
No, it could not. Chemistry does not work that way. It requires certain elements, certain temperatures, certain pressures. It would be within a few percentage of the earth's or it would never form complexity. This isn't star trek where the Horta can exist.
>>44343105
What if they're pretty apathetic about it? What if they're a race of bored teenagers, communicating through Alienbook, guttural disgust, and eye-rolls?
>>44343858
>Do fish and dolphins not share a similar physical shape?
Well fish shape isnt exactly a complex form. Still common ancestor and the fact that earths gravity and the way water works.
>>44343944
>Would any of one of these events have delayed or advanced human development by as much as 0.001%? One value given for the age of the Earth is 4.567 billion years. A +/- 0.001% change would set human evolution back by 4.567 million years (Apes), or advance it by 4.567 million years (Angels).
>Thus, by "Apes & Angels" one could say that any two worlds that formed at exactly the same time, and that have had billions of years to go from dust to sentient life, could differ by as much as 9.134 million years in evolution!
>A divergence of only 0.000001% would still separate the two extremes by 9.134 thousand years. With this value, one alien world could have a bronze-age culture (year = 2560 BCE), while another could be far ahead of our own, both culturally and technologically (year = 6574 CE). Maybe not "Apes & Angels" but perhaps "Spearchuckers & Supermen"?
Welcome to 40 years ago.
>>44343858
Not him, but that shape is probably one of the best for running considering its limitations(uses legs, 4 of them, in a combination of bones, muscles, fat and skin, nails, number of leg joints, etc).
If you want examples, take a look at swimming, there are multiple of ways to swim around, fish, octopus, whale, turtle, oarfish,... And the amount and position of fins on fishes varies a lot too.
>>44344003
Yes, the way water works.
Now, are you versed enough in biology to understand why a cheetah is shaped like it is? Because that's how quadrupedal locomotion works and that's how running and gravity and air resistance and traction work. The two creatures were not intended to look like each other. The Greyhound was simply bred to run as fast as possible. The fundamental forces and requirements of doing so is what shaped it into a cheetah-like form, the same as evolution by natural selection selected the cheetah's form because it was the most efficient for the task.
The same is true for bats and birds, fish and dolphins, aliens and humans.
The universe isn't fucking spelljammer. I'm sorry you dislike mundane creatures or examples but that's all the universe has to offer.
>>44343802
>we have used this technology for almost a hundred years
>also, there were theories about it for almost a hundred years before it was first used in practice
>therefore it must be some kind of universal constant that all intelligent species do this
I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that logic gates based on semiconductors aren't the apex of what is theoretically possible in computing.
Like, the Latin alphabet has existed longer by an order of magnitude, but that isn't really a reason to assume that aliens could read it.
>>44343858
Greyhounds and cheetahs doesn't look like cars, and cars are way faster than them. as far as we know, aliens may be fucking transformers.
>>44344060
>Not him, but that shape is probably one of the best for running considering its limitations(uses legs, 4 of them, in a combination of bones, muscles, fat and skin, nails, number of leg joints, etc).
Yes it is. Explain to me how physics is different on alien planets. Do you think there might be a reason we don't see anything on the surface larger than an insect with more than four legs? Could it be that such a form is just too energy inefficient to be viable?
It's not anthropocentric. It's just physics. Notice how all active military jets look pretty much the same? Because physics.
>>44343944
>Are you saying that you believe technological civilization is the goal of evolution?
Just what the FUCK are you smoking? I neither said nor even implied anything REMOTELY close to that.
>I'm saying that if we didn't have any extinction events, that the entire earth could just be covered in a mat of algae.
The first extinction event we have information of was, in fact, caused by bacteria increasing the levels of oxygen in the atmosphere and the ocean. Furthermore, evolutionary pressure doesn't take massive extinction events to happen - it only takes a change in environment which, while generally disruptive, does not require a planetary-scale disaster. Without further extinction events, life would certainly look different, but there's no reason to assume that it would have never advanced beyond procaryotes - that might certainly be the case, but we have no conclusive evidence one way or another, since we only have one case to study, so far. And finally, at least if we look at our solar system as being more or less standard for a life-bearing star system, it would be ridiculously unlikely for a planet to have NO extinction events.
>>44344086
Wheels are impossible to form at the scale of large life forms. Please try to put in an effort. This thread does not need more shitposting.
>>44344077
>I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that logic gates based on semiconductors aren't the apex of what is theoretically possible in computing.
No but it is the easiest to use. So any species with a budget in mind will adapt them first.
>Like, the Latin alphabet has existed longer by an order of magnitude, but that isn't really a reason to assume that aliens could read it.
That's a terrible example because you can't even read sumerian.
>>44332394
Not really. What you're thinking of is a gross simplification of what an atom is. There are no individual electrons whirling about like planets round the sun. There is merely a probability field around a nucleus where the charge of an electron exists.
>>44344133
>Just what the FUCK are you smoking? I neither said nor even implied anything REMOTELY close to that.
Then you asked a completely pointless question when you said "are in any way or form a requirement for a technological civilization?" Why did you do that? Just to shitpost? Calm down. We're all adults here.
>it would be ridiculously unlikely for a planet to have NO extinction events.
Then it is ridiculously unlikely for any planet to house a life form on our evolutionary or technological level. Thanks for playing.
>>44344192
>Then it is ridiculously unlikely for any planet to house a life form on our evolutionary or technological level. Thanks for playing.
You keep making these ridiculous assertions yet you have nothing to back them up with. Go fuck yourself with a rake.
>>44344228
I've explained it in a way that a child would understand three times now. You're calling arthur c clarke and several of your peers idiots.
It's simple logic, i'll restate it for the benefit of others at least:
Evolution takes a long time. If anything sets it back, it takes longer.
There will be different setback events on different planets.
Therefore:
Evolved lifeforms on those planets are not on the same level as earth.
>>44344286
Except your conclusion doesn't follow. And even if it did, it only means that they're not on the same level, not that they aren't more advanced.
>>44344339
Yes, they could be more advanced, but more than likely they'll just be extinct because nothing lasts forever. A divergence of only 0.000001% would still separate the two extremes by 9.134 thousand years.
I get that you have a beef with the notion of science understanding the universe, but could you take it to /x/ where it actually belongs?
>>44344389
>more than likely they'll just be extinct because nothing lasts forever.
Yet another baseless assertion. If anything, Earth shows how extremely resilient life is.
>>44336742
>Overthinking
That might be a decent gauge of intelligence by itself.
Give an animal a toy, and it'll play until it gets bored. Give a human a toy, and he'll be very suspicious about your motives for giving him a toy.
The puzzle the aliens give you actually has no solution, and you score based on how much time you waste on it. Extra credit if you successfully break the puzzle.
>>44344480
Okay contrarian. Argue with yourself.
>>44344002
I tell them to get off my lawn.
>>44332275
Seems to me ayy lamos test intelligence by way of anal probing. The MOAR probe you can take the smarter you are, that's why they pay so much attention to cow's and people from rural areas.
>>44344767
They abduct cows to see how a slave race of ours is treated. They check its memories.
A rock is already on its way.
>>44344831
Well, you don't really hear stories about cows getting abducted out of those meat/milk factories where they live in a box barely near enough to fit them, but rather out of large fields where they are grazing.
And those cows we give a good cow life, right up until we kill them (in an as stress-free maner as possible because stress makes the meat taste bad) and eat them
>>44344931
>Well, you don't really hear stories about cows getting abducted out of those meat/milk factories where they live in a box barely near enough to fit them, but rather out of large fields where they are grazing.
Because those stories are from more than 50 years ago. The odds of finding a cow like that today instead of one that's been abused its whole life are slim to none.
>>44344931
>because stress makes the meat taste bad
Now it's two rocks.
>>44345012
Well then aliens clearly aren't abducting cows any more, so we're fine
>>44333006
Holy hell what a piece of pretentious human assumptions!
A species has appeared from the other end of the galaxy or even universe! You can't know shit about how they think.
Aliens care deeply about math?
Maybe they do and maybe they have an ability to instantly understand the solution to their problems and as such never needed the concept of mathematics.
Aliens will understand conservation of energy, how atoms are built, Pi, natural selection, speed of light...
Or maybe they have a whole different sort of technology that never made these things relevant or interesting for them to know.
Just because some knowledge or concept is incredible important or useful for humans it doesn't mean it'll be for an alien race.
>>44345032
Because FTL cannot exist, obviously.
>>44345266
Take your vacuous and contrarian views elsewhere. Your ignorance is not our ignorance.
>>44333006
>>44345266
In addition: The assumption they would just let the human stand there making noises drawing triangles in the sand?
As the instigators of the meeting they might as well be the ones presenting the humans with tests.
Assuming they were even interested in knowing about our understanding of problemsolving and science.
Just because that's WE would do, it's not a certainty at all that an alien would do the same.
>>44345442
You done yet? We're trying to have a discussion. Your ignorance is not contributing to that.
>>44345664
Which parts do you disagree with exactly?
Why is it a given fact that aliens care for mathematics etc etc.? Please enlighten me.
>>44332395
This
>implying we'd fuck around with namby-pamby math games when we've already developed the most satisfying sound known to the universe
BBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT
>>44345442
>It appears these aliens possess basic rocket technology, and are building simple structures in orbit of their planet
>Let us eat the flesh from their bones, as is our custom.
>>44345266
>Pi is irrational in our number system
>Whenever we make observations about the natural world, we round the results to a discrete rational number
>Still using algorithms to do maths
>Visually representing subatomic particles as physical bodies
We're totally going to flunk this first contact, aren't we?
>>44346112
You know what, you are right.
Obviously aliens are pretty much humans.
Of course they must follow the same kind of logic we do. They will be driven by the same ambitions and motives that drive us.
You really convinced me with that argument. Well done friend.
>>44345995
I do not have the time to educate you on all the things that you are ignorant about while you kick and scream the whole way. I'll just say that you make nothing but idiotic assumptions based on creativity and not reality.
>>44346412
>lol i don't believe in evolution
>lol life isn't based on chemistry
We didn't ask about your theological beliefs.
>>44346412
>You really convinced me with that argument.
What are you talking about?
>>44346461
Right right. You are an important man with your whole alien insider knowledge. No time to waste!
Everything about aliens from outside our solar system is speculation based solely on knowledge about Earth and human knowledge.
Don't try to pretend it's not.
It seems you were the ignorant all along.
>>44346562
The nonsensical post I replied to.
>>44342124
Yes.
>>44342601
That wasn't a Flatland reference, but I did read it a very long time ago.
>>44346581
When you're ready to have an adult conversation we can begin.
Again, you're willfully ignorant of basic biology and physics, or you are asserting through fiat alone that they do not apply on any other planet other than earth because you think it would be boring, and for no other reason.
The universe isn't complicated. The less you know, the more questions you have.
>>44336186
clarification, what are the symbols for multiple numbers separation?
this is important when you have context sensitive meanings especially how you use " ° "
for example
does
«|| |0» & ¥|
or
«|| |0» & |||0
because simple "white space" like a space is a really bad separator visually for concatenation-able symbols
for differentiation here i will use "~"
the difference
«||~|0» & ¥|
or
«|| |0» & |||0
>>44336496
any one who needs this explanation shouldn't be on the internet let alone tg
>>44340690
pretty sure it's not included based on the premise that a number can't have more than one factorized form.
i mean, 20 is 2*2*5 as well as 2*2*5*1*1*1*1*1, and if 1 is counted as a prime both should be valid factorizations, which goes against the principle
>>44336606
whelp, i seem to not understand the last operation then, care to translate "|° & ___" ?
>>44347593
he is using base 4
|° & «| €»
>>44337492
without that mark it is not necessarily a demonstration of right triangles, regardless of symbols you intend to mean numbers
if each triangle has that symbol, in addition to the numbers, it is actually clearer that there is a common meaning
>>44345266
>Aliens care deeply about math?
>I am being a moron intentionally: the post
1. to be space faring they will need engineering
2. engineering uses math as its foundation
3. If they are technologically superior, then they already determine our species fate, by simple existence
4. If you are isolated by them for the purpose of determining you intelligence, your understanding of math will be explored at some point, (with addition of other things)
>>44347193
>The less you know, the more questions you have.
In most fields, the opposite of that is true.
>>44346329
We will flunk it because the majority of humans are religious zealots, and imbeciles when it comes to the natural sciences, and math
>>44347867
>Implying the aliens won't come to our planet to spread the word of their lord and savior Jesus Christ and realize we're fellow children of God once they determine we have the same stories.
>>44347865
What's your field?
>>44347947
>same stories
>humans, on a single planet, don't even operate as if they are the same stories, add personal stories to their respective cannons, and constantly reinterpret all of them, and only has the modern era prevented them from continuously killing each other over it
>thinking aliens won't exterminate us if they are religious zealots with superior technology and weapons
those are not mutually exclusive, and so I could not have even been implying it, so you are still an idiot
>>44347947
>same stories
why would their savior have a human body?
>>44348069
The fact that when Jesus came to their planet he would have been an Ayy Lmao like them doesn't mean the story structure can't be fundamentally the same, with similar miracles and overall flow of events.
The same way basically everyone depicts Jesus as their own race instead of jewish.
>>44348146
That point alone would cause an extermination, you clearly baiting troll
Modern Jewish is closer to Germans than it is to middle eastern so Jesus wouldn't even look like a jew you're thinking of
>>44347845
>engineering uses math as its foundation
>defending linear algebra
I don't see you making first contact with an alien species, engie boy.
It takes a profound sort of arrogance to be this unwilling to believe, even in the context of a supposed meeting with fictional space aliens, that the basis of your human knowledge might be less than perfect. No, you have it all figured out. The universe runs on math, and your ability to perform crude character manipulation to derive contradictory results from arbitrary axioms marks you as an equal to a species that has mastered interstellar travel.
Yeah, the aliens are going to be really interested in your deep knowledge of polygons on a flat plane. No matter that flat planes are a result of your human imagination trying to make sense of a world you can't truly perceive without mechanical aid, the aliens will inevitably have developed exactly the same kind of visual aids.
Study on, kid. You're gonna do Earth proud.
>>44348234
>That point alone would cause an extermination, you clearly baiting troll
If they came to convert us like the initial point they would either:
A) have no reason to suspect we shared their religion and thus our heathen beliefs about the savior being human would be curious, but not that different then what ever other "incorrect" religion they thought we might have had
B) either via us not being the first culture they encountered with a Christ story like theirs (why would we be their first first contact, and if none of the others DID have a Christ story that just leads us back to A) or simply through their own religious interpretations would have expected the savior to visit us in our form, even if theirs is his "true" form.
>Modern Jewish is closer to Germans than it is to middle eastern so Jesus wouldn't even look like a jew you're thinking of
I didn't even MEAN to imply he should be depicted as a modern jew, although my phrasing might have done so any way, the point is that no matter if you mean he should look like a modern or a 2000 year old Jewish middle-eastern jewish person, he STILL shouldn't look like a white/black guy depending on the church either way, and yet he does, because people want to identify their religious figures with themselves.
>>44348490
Nice word salad
your plan sounds like you would shit all over yourself till they dissect you
>>44348529
Why would they come to convert us?
First in the hypothetical they just came, then you said they would have the same religion, and now you have changed it to they came TO convert us
Are you trying to convert cows to your religion before you eat them? Are you trying to convert wild Wolves or even your pet Dogs?
If the aliens had a different religion would you try to convert them?
>>44348583
Reading comprehension bro.
The hypothetical, posted here >>44348008 was
>Come to convert us to space Christianity
>Realize after establishing communication that there are already Christians here since our stories line up
By virtue of having man-made shit in orbit we are obviously on a higher mental level than a Cow, and thus assuming their religion does encourage them to spread the word and convert (like Christianity does) we would be reasonably targets for conversion cause we obviously possess some levels of intellect.
And if a Cow or Wolf or whatever was capable of having and understanding a religion, you can bet people would be trying to convert them. But, near as we can tell. They don't, so we don't bother.
>>44348880
My mistake, hypothetical was posted >>44347947
I linked a reply instead.
Math problem that doesn't use base 10 since they don't have those number of digits
>>44348909
Missed a phrase in that >implying
its still a really, unlikely hypothetical, which was the immediate response to it
here
>>44348008
if you don't think an animal would matter for conversion why would a different sapeint species either?
not to mention, there is more than one religion on earth, and Christianity is one of the most fragmented of all times
>>44337632
IT'S HIP TO BE SQUAREAND TO CHECK THESE
fuck you niggas care about the most trivial shit.
