Good roleplay just happens, and "roll"playing is not necessarily a bad thing. You can't legislate roleplaying. If you want your players to improve their roleplaying, roleplay yourself. I hate it when DMs whine about their boring players while they themselves speak in monotone, give minimal descriptions, and don't have any interest in their own NPCs. If you do it, others will pick it up from you. Apart from that, deal with it. A player who gets his enjoyment from quietly rolling his dice and trying to kill the maximum number of goblins is not a bad player.

iirc, positive reinforcement is generally more effective for long-term behavior changes than negative reinforcement. The more engaged roleplayers inevitably have more in-character connections, more "quest hooks," more allies, and probably more money and such over time. By comparison, people might not think too strongly either way of someone who doesn't speak up or say anything, great deeds or no.

>>44319149
Start off with playing a game where roleplaying is something that is reinforced by the rules.

>>44319367
i make sure to do my absolute best while Dming. while it may sound narcissistic, and i promise i don't mean it as such, i tend to think i do a very good job at making all my NPC's interesting and unique, i make sure to describe everything to the best of my abilities and i do believe i have a natural talent for DMing.
the real issue wasn't really my players getting enjoyment from quietly rolling dice and getting max kills, the problem more so lies with consistent conflicting actions involving their characters and frequent meta gaming. about half of my players do this while the other half do not (i play with 6 people)
i understand that some people aren't as skilled or talented as others and some people have different ideas of fun, but their frequent meta gaming and lack of character consistency takes away the fun for some of the other players and myself. so instead of removing them from the party all together i was hoping for some advice to more or less help the other players be more consistent and meta game less.

I give minor experience rewards for the most part, as well as bonuses to rolls when relevant. I wouldn't recommend punishment; some people just can't get into it. If you find a player shying away from it in spite of the incentives you put down, don't push them into uncomfortable territory just to satisfy your expectations. On the same note, reward effort over ability; you want them to get into the spirit of things even if they feel overshadowed by their peers, and for that they need to know it isn't a contest.

>>44319540
If metagaming is where they find their enjoyment, you may be better off turning that to your advantage. I've tried several different things in getting my resident min-maxer to roleplay, and the two most successful both played off his love for metagaming.

The first was a sword empowered by the song of the wielder; to activate its powers the player had to sing his character's actions in combat. He played along at first for the combat advantage, but his singing grew more half-hearted as time went on and I eventually waived the requirement. However, it got him into the game in other ways; he took a renewed interest in the singing proficiency he'd originally added as a joke, and even got some lessons from a race of cats that spoke only in improv-jazz to work into his reportoire.

The second was a young dwarf who asked his character for swordfighting tips. It got him look at the things he enjoys about the game from the perspective of someone inside it, and the result was the best roleplay I've probably ever seen from him. Since then there's been a number of prospective students seeking to learn from the now legendary swordsman he plays.

>>44319367
>You can't legislate roleplaying
This. You CAN give them the typical xp bonus and whatnot. I really don't bother with it though. I try and toss rewards in game in a different manner. If the 3rd lvl paladin held the choke point and went toe to toe with a 5-6Hd minotaur to buy a few seconds for the -insert helpless NPC-here during the town raid then the townsfolk are going to remember his heroism and treat him accordingly (except for the majors cowardly son. He's going to try and ambush him later with a few of his buddies for his humiliation)
If it's just alignment then I punish bad roleplay by changing alignment. The "Good/neutral" character who kills everything around him get's shifted over to evil. Usually when they least expect it. Like with something that can sense evil or effect it.
I was running a dragonlance game with a Wizard. He strait up murder hoboed every time anything happened. He solved his problems with lightning lance. Player wanted badly to get white robes when he "finally took his test" so he could get some griffon mage prestige class.
So I just started his test before he could metagame one for l33t flying mount without him knowing. Slapped him with black robes. During his test he was so murder hobo his superiors in the order even grew paranoid about him. Eventually branded him a renegade and stripped him of wizardry. Ended up having to go through loads of BS to get sorcerer levels. Became infamous as hell though.

>>44319789
while those are in fact pretty damn good solutions, they aren't really solutions for my problem.
i guess i should explain this a bit more.
my players don't min max, they are too new to do that effectively. the thing they do that creates the most conflict is using their outside knowledge to make decisions that contradict their character. like avoiding certain things because the see me roll a die, even though in character they would have still done the action, they instead avoid it. or even during a conversation they on cue change their personality to get the most benefits from the NPC even though there is no way their character would have done that if played the same way the had initially described said character. this is the thing i would like to discourage/avoid. but i'm not sure how to get that to stop. i would like to avoid bringing it up to them because i don't want them to become upset and not want to play.

>>44319848
i never even considered the changing on alignment, that's a good one and i will be sure to use it. and as for the rest of it. i have tried to something similar yet not as extreme but the players dont seem to learn from it. i will have my npc's react realistically to the player after certain actions have been taken, specifically bad ones. yet they get upset with ME as the DM. instead of learning from their mistakes in character, they go about doing the same bad things expect ME to have changed the ways me NPC's react.

>>44319902
>like avoiding certain things because the see me roll a die, even though in character they would have still done the action, they instead avoid it
Oh goodness, that is so exploitable. Here's what you do: get a DM's screen, and roll dice. Not for any particular purpose, just occasionally roll a die and take some "notes". Maybe make the players roll Perception and tell them they don't notice anything.

Paranoid players are great, because you can fuck with their heads.

As for how they "initially described the character", here's the solution: ignore the initial description, it is a lie the PC tells himself and perhaps others. The way the player plays the PC is the way he really is.

>>44319902
If your players are taking/refusing action based on when they hear dice, toss in some fake rolls to throw them off. If you always appear to be rolling for something then they won't be able to use it to gauge when trouble's coming.

When you say 'change their personality to get the most benefits from the NPC,' can you give an example?

I refuse to ever try and reward players with mechanical benefits just to encourage them to actually roleplay.

I'm sorry, if you are so adamant that you refuse to actually put effort into the game unless you're given a fucking doggy treat, you shouldn't be sitting at the table. Go find a game that wants you, I don't.

Plus, I don't give players experience. Fuck that shit.

>>44319993
>When you say 'change their personality to get the most benefits from the NPC,'
I assume he means something like: Swashbuckler A is a jovial, drink-loving ladies-man when introducing his character, but somehow suddenly becomes a growling intimidating bad-cop when trying to get information out of a captured thug, and then somehow turns into a cordial, refined gentleman if they happen to be talking to a noble.

Basically players who don't understand the concept of a character.

>>44320058
That's not so different from how many act in real life, ironically. I'd treat it like a bluff attempt; roll a charisma check or equivalent and give the NPC a negative reaction if they find they are being manipulated. Throw in a few important NPCs who value sincerity over other traits to further encourage them to play their character as described.

>>44319993
there aren't any huge examples. the primary thing they do is change the way they would regularly act, like instead of being cold and brooding and mean, deiced in this moment to be nice and kind because the player knows they can get extra money from the NPC. or some times the player will, instead of playing the war hardened veteran who runs blade first into any situation like they normally do, they try and back down and play the victim because they accidentally saw the stats of the people he would fight. stuff like that

>>44320166
That is hugely different from how people act in real life.

When a player with low or middling Charisma tries to all the sudden start being intimidating, or acting like he has the Wisdom of a wizard when he's a Fighter who dumped everything but Strength, they have no concept of character permanence. To them, their PC is whoever it needs to be to solve every problem. They don't REMEMBER that they dumped Charisma, because they can just talk like a suave or informed person, since nothing limits them from that.

You need to punch these people in the face and tell them that they need to actually play the character they built, otherwise they need to scrap it and build a new one that has the stats they seem to want to roleplay instead. You can't have both. And we don't coddle retards, that doesn't teach them anything.

>>44319947
If they're angry at you, explain to them in character why things are happening the way they are.

Have a famous rogue take them aside after they inadvertently helped him rob a bank and explain that most people will be angry if you do certain bad acts, and they will be happy if they act in certain ways.

Explain that they need to consider the consequences of their actions if they want to be successful, and that some actions may lead to success where othere might be less good.

>>44320187
Your players sound like bad players, to be honest. Very metagame-y.

>>44320058
exactly, though it sometimes gets extreme.
your comment about the bad cop reminded me of a fairly recent incident
(backstory) the PC is a lawful good ex guard who walked away from her post due to corruption within the ranks.
recently the party came across a group of bandits, that they fought and captured, the PC broke their kneecaps because the refused to tell the party where their "stash" was.
later that same session the same PC went on a rant about inhumane the prison system was and that the guards should be ashamed for being so cruel.

>>44320246
>Your players sound like bad players, to be honest. Very metagame-y.

I'm not talking about my group, I'm talking about players in general.

As a DM, I do a shitload of work to remove all metagame shit from my games. Which is why my players don't ever deal with XP, enemy stats, nor do they even see the actual results of most of their skill checks.

Thankfully, we've been playing together long enough that I don't have to inform them that their characters kind of need to be consistent with the shit they built, because they know if they start playing something massively different than their statblock/backstory, I'll tell them to pick one or the other and change it.

>>44320253
>recently the party came across a group of bandits, that they fought and captured, the PC broke their kneecaps because the refused to tell the party where their "stash" was.
>later that same session the same PC went on a rant about inhumane the prison system was and that the guards should be ashamed for being so cruel.

This is the point where you stop him and say "Dave, you're not a Lawful Good character. I am changing your alignment to what you are actually playing, and you're going to lose access to any bonuses or powers that rely on you remaining Lawful Good."

Because that's how the game works.

>>44320187
precisely, the recluse anti social rogue of the party who dumped everything into DEX and WIS with a 6CHR has been changing his personality left and right, intimidating, bluffing, etc...just because after watching my other players do it successfully and get good outcomes from NPC's.

>>44320317
Again, I already told you the solutions:

A,) Kick bad players from the group.

B,) Force bad players to change to a character that is actually built for what they want to play.

C,) Spend more sessions doing nothing and hope they change.

You know what I do for the "playing low CHA as more socially competent than he should be" thing?

I make them roll for it. In fact, I make everyone roll for it. You can describe it with all the social flourish you can muster, but if you fail the DC your character THINKS about saying the right things, but actually ends up being a stuttering reject.

If you want Charisma scores to matter, you have to be consistent. There are rules for this, use them.

>>44320183
The first definitely calls for a bluff check. The NPC may move to give them the money but stop, finding they don't quite trust that crooked smile.

The latter I'd give more leeway for; it's better that a player have discretion. But I'd give them tips for how the veteran may back down from the fight so they don't feel pressed to change personality, and encourage them to stay in character. Sometimes I'll ask my players to do or say a part over in character, even things the character themselves didn't say such as actions in combat.

As for playing off information they shouldn't know..don't let them see it. If it's a module or something and you can't prevent that, change some things around so they can't use it to their advantage. Maybe the helpful NPC is secretly the bad guy this time. Heck, maybe they got body swapped and the real helpful NPC is doing their best to fake the bad guy's role so the henchmen don't turn on them.

>>44319947
> that's a good one and i will be sure to use it.
Just don't outright use it. Remember that certain creatures will act and treat PCs accordingly to their alignment. You're the DM. You're ultimately a judge. Even when it comes to your players actions and if it adheres to their alignment.
Just remember tragic villains. They usually didn't start off the way they were. And going from good to evil is a slippery slope when their occasional behavior becomes the norm. Kind of like Irl how people's personalities eventually slip and eventually turn to something else. Their outlook, way they treat people and how others come to view them.

alright. thanks for the help /tg/ it was much appreciated!
i'm just going to let the thread die now