Did anyone else really like the 4e Points of Light setting?
>>44291722
Sure
>>44291722
it is the perfect example of "bottom up" worldbuilding
Points of Light is an excellent setting with far more lore than most people give it credit for, especially with regards to the Dawn War, the primordials, the gods, the archfey, the primal spirits, and the fallen empires of Arkhosia, Bael Turath, and Nerath.
>>44291722
I liked it, my group liked it.
If the group ever meets again, we might go back, but then we might have to deal with some of the problems we made. Like the town full of mimic-people, or that volcano god we tricked...
>>44291722Ioun is my waifu.
>>44292735
That's because the lore is organized in a completely nonsensical way. There the tiny amount of information given in the dmg, plus pieces scattered across dozens of published adventures and digital articles behind a paywall. Maybe if they bothered publishing a setting book in place of one of the more superfluous splat books (maybe the one that was literally subtitled "min-max your min-maxing,") more people would consider using it.
>>44291722
I liked it a lot. The gods, primordials, and the Dawn War had a lot of the 'chaos versus order' of Proto-Indo European religions with fantasy tones. The previous empires like Arkhosia, Bael Turath, and Nerath were neat. It was nice that there wasn't just one advanced empire that did everything. Overall, it had a really nice setup for people to add there own stuff.
My DM is running a campaign that's a sequel to a previous 4e campaign we had in Points of Light where we basically found the remnants and progeny of Arkhosia, and helped them move locations and begin recreating their civilization anew. It's something like 30 years later and we're dealing with some cosmic star threats while the world is getting used to Arkhosia being back on the playing field.
It's a neat setting, though with our DM being a dragon nut, we can't walk 10 feet without something being related to dragons popping up. Just once I'd like to be able to fight a kobold, dragonborn, or actual Dragon and not have to get into a philosophical moral debate on who is really the bad guy when they're literally threatening my life. That's more my DM though, and not Point of Light.
>>44294007
I think that's part of the charm about it.
The setting has a real sense of discovery in a meta sense that translates well to the table.
>>44291722
Yes, though I never played 4e or it.
>>44294535
That doesn't really work as an excuse, because it means the players don't even know things their characters should know. It's not like starting as a humble townsperson in a world where civilization is dying and ignorance is widespread, which is what they were going for. It's like being in a dream and not being able to remember what you're supposed to be doing or why. The DM has to make up everything, or outsource the players to make it up for him, and anything might be contradicted by something he stumbles across later in a published adventure he wanted to run. Better to just make everything up wholesale so nothing will be contradicted later.
>>44291722
Yeah. it's solid. It's probably the best thing about 4e
>>44294836
give it a rest, memezilla
>>44294794
And that's another thing, they never really tried to follow through on the initial premise: that civilization is losing and the monsters are winning. That would have been really interesting if they'd put any effort into conveying that information to the players. You never really see the darkness between the allegedly scarce and imperiled points of light. Trade, arcane learning, and multiple organized churches go on as though there were no ravening hordes of monsters clawing at the gates. Players are never exposed to challenges that are truly beyond them, even if they go out looking for them. The only threats they're ever aware of any any given moment are ones tailor-made for them to be able to defeat. For a setting made for such a "tactical" system, they make sure you never have to worry about one of the most important tactics: recognizing when you have to retreat.
I rather liked it. Would like the chance to play in it more.
>>44294007
Frighteningly, the preview books they released about a year before 4e launched actually had a more coherent idea of the setting than the 4e books did.
PoL wasn't really intended as a setting, it was a "Build your own setting" kit.
In the PHB and DMG it gave you an origin for the world, a few key historic events, a pantheon, a celestial conflict to build off of at higher levels, and then just told you to go nuts.
>>44291722
As a DM, it's my favorite kind of setting. It's a bottom-up, adventure oriented world. There's enough backstory to establish race relations and the legends of great, fallen Empires and celestial conflicts (and providing the DM with a bottomless well of ancient ruins and evils to draw from) while avoiding bogging you down with the specifics of the current world. I'm glad it avoids having much in the way of politics (I really fucking hate when DMs get to political or war storylines where the PCs wind up as soldiers instead of the freelance adventurers they should be). I just get the feeling that it was an incredibly player-oriented setting, the creators weren't trying to go all out to make something super unique or groundbreaking, and instead just focused on a sandbox with tons of freedom and mystery for the PC's to enjoy.
It's just a perfect setting for standard D&D-style high fantasy adventures, the focus on background lore over current kingdoms or nations makes it really easy for a DM to adapt to his own story while the player's only need to know the general race dynamics to 'get' the setting. Honestly, the 'start small and expand outwards' worldbuilding approach 4E encourages really struck a chord with me and I feel like I've become such a better DM for learning to focus on the smaller scale landscapes rather than feeling the need to make a Tolkien-esque map and history every time I start a new game. Basically, Points of Light is a flawless, entry-tier setting.
Given the nature of Points of Light, I thought the lack of hard details was a feature, rather than a bug. It was a set of themes and vague ideas which gave the GM a structure for building their own stories, able to fill in the blanks as the players stepped beyond their starting point of light. I actually appreciate that sort of setting design more than games which load the GM down with facts and places and things to remember.
>>44291722
>Did anyone else really like the 4e Points of Light setting?
It actually inspired my current 5e setting, which is set kind of in the Dawn War, with players as agents of the gods who go out and attempt to convert barbaric savages away from worship of the primorials.
>>44294794
What? Points of Light was set up to be a "dark ages" setting where players/characters were both ignorant of what was in the next land over.
As such, the stuff "your character should know" was much smaller than in settings where everything is more interconnected.
Your had to roll knowledge to know shit about trolls because in Points of Light, you don't just see trolls everyday or read books about trolls, or hear lots of stories about trolls from the countless travelers that regularly encounter them.
Trolls are just one of any number of big bad mysterious things that dwell in the dark wilds outside the safety of your town/city walls.
>>44291722
I did, from an entirely practical point of view. As a DM, I had the perfect excuse to make a map that consisted of a few "points" that represented towns and cities, a few roads to connect all of them, and then everything outside of those points simply read "HERE BE DRAGONS" that I could make up as they went along when they ventured forth.
>>44295189
>You never really see the darkness between the allegedly scarce and imperiled points of light. Trade, arcane learning, and multiple organized churches go on as though there were no ravening hordes of monsters clawing at the gates.
They were a lot more decentralized in Points of Light to be sure. Especially in regards to divine characters, 4E gave you way more freedom to buck the establishment without having your powers instantly revoked, as well as the idea that a single deity had multiple faiths/sects/manifestations so that the "Church of Pelor" in one city is not necessarily related to or holds any real authority in another city.
The fluff for arcane magic was also treated in a less formulaic manner than in 3E, with the idea that all Wizards/bards/artificers had to attend some kind of formalized schooling was severely downplayed. It also really pushed the Warlock as an arcane caster that got power from a monster and not rigorous study and the Sorcerer as a more primal arcane caster.
It also greatly expanded the "nature" classes.
>>44295392
An atlas with collected info was planned for 2009 or 2010, but it got canned to make room for Essentials. You can see some material in the Threats of the Nentir Vale monster book (one of the last for 4e).
Anyway, I love PoL. It's become my default fantasy setting for all my fantasy games. There used to be some great stuff on the WotC wiki, but that got canned, it's only accessible through waybach machine.
Pic related is the updated Nentir Vale map with info taken from the modules and magazines.
This is the world map from the Conquest of Nerath board game. Some of the regions outside Nentir Vale were covered in Dragon magazine.
I also have one without the squares for the boardgame, but it's too big to post here.
>>44291722
Loved it.
I liked even more the design philosophy it was based on, as the whole idea is to make your character feel heroic.
Points of Light exemplifies what I think is one of the key points of writing good RPG settings.
Interesting questions are more important than absolute answers. Almost every time I've seen an RPG setting try to give an answer to some in setting mystery, it's boring. No matter how good the answer is, leaving the mystery open gives a lot more room for players and GMs to experiment, improvise and work within the framework you provide. Unknown Armies style rumours are a great middle ground for supporting this kind of thing, giving lots of different potential options where some might be true, some might be false, and some might be half truths, but it's up to the GM to figure out which is which. I'd love to have seen more rumours style stuff for Points of Light.
>>44296818
*cough*BearLore*cough*
>>44291722
I enjoyed it emensely and use elements of it frequently.
It could have been better organized.
I know they were trying to make it generic land, but if they had actually embraced the concept of a civilization circling the drain and ran with it rather than hiding from it I probably would have invested a bit more in it.
7/10
Would run again.
Would play again.
>>44300675
...From an IN-CHARACTER perspective, is bear lore really that bad, assuming a setting where the average person is assumed to be ignorant of what is beyond their immediate neighborhood?
Like yes, reading it from a modern day perspective, it is just listing bullshit that we all know. But if, say, trolls were real, we would also be like "OH WOW, TROLLS REGENERATE, YOU KILL THEM WITH FIRE" along the same lines as we roll our eyes at "BEARS LIVE IN CAVES, THEY ATTACK WITH CLAWS"
>>44299490
Truth. A dark and weak world in need of heroes, lots of points of interest for those brave or foolish enough to go to.
>>44291722
4e's implied setting+cosmoly is actually pretty good IMO. If you've read the design book (the one with just fluff and design notes) they really tried to build a consistent D&D setting not too tied up in old artifacts like the great wheel.
...unfortunately, for many people, that didn't make it D&D. Personally I like the World Axis cosmology more than the great wheel but I know that's heresy to many.
>>44303413
Though if the darkness is that bad, no one should have been able to last that long out there in order to come back with conclusive information.
It's more like
OH SURE, MONSTERS KILL PEOPLE TO DEATH, PSHAW.
I mean, predators survive by killing things and not letting them get away, not by showing off their powers for long enough so their prey can run off and tell everyone about them.
>>44303413
Its more that the DC is too high for what it tells you, compared to other monsters and even within its own entry.
DC15 tells you their usual habitats, that they're predators, and that dire bears have no problem attacking humanoids. 20 should tell you about hibernation, or that they can climb trees, or that playing dead kinda works with grizzlies but not black bears, or something else that might help one avoid/survive an encounter, not "this large predatory animal is strong and will hurt you with pointy parts".
>>44304432
Dire bears are Paragon tier.
Their DC20 is equal to a DC15 for a cave bear.
