Why do people shit on bards again?
Because it isn't obvious how and why they're powerful. It's easy to look at a party of swordsmen, mages, divinely blessed priests and so and go "...So why is the guy with the instrument here?"
Bards are awesome, and have a history of awesomeness in song and story, but it's still not hard to understand why they might seem underwhelming at first glance.
Because they usually just stand in the back tootling away instead of actually doing anything. Yeah, they're buffing, but it's a very static class. And inevitably played by two kinds of people. Those who can't handle being the center of attention whatsoever, and those to try to hog the spotlight at all times.
Plus the whole "hurrdurr i seduce" thing
>>44245502
Because a lot of people think they're faggoty instrument playing jobbers instead of the spies using the cover of a minstrel to get into where they need to be, it's the ultimate cover.
Sure they're good at playing music, but they can do more than that.
>>44245502
because the bard lays all the women
>>44245502
No basic class is truly hated.
>>44245622
Lay on bitches is a powerful thing
>>44245542
>Plus the whole "hurrdurr i seduce" thing
I never understood how that really got started, but part of me wants to blame that atrocious comic by that inflation-porn artist that gets thrown around /tg/ whenever bards get brought up.
Bards are charismatic and high-society, they have talents and skills that make them desirable to effectively anyone, regardless of the settlement. With that in mind, why should a bard "seduce everything" when they have their pick of the litter? Why can't you have a bard that is all look, no touch, as many bards were at the time? I mean sure you can fuck the busty tart in the wheat fields, but why degrade yourself like that when you can be the paramour of a courtier, or countess?
I don't know, it just feels like sophomoric "I conquer all the lady parts" to me. No standards.
>>44245502
My barb was pretty well received. I was the leader, and strong enough to beat the tank in a fight. I was also a robot with a keytar, so what's not to like.
>>44245727
Bard, not barb.
>>44245542
In what system/edition? In any edition of D&D, bards have fairly powerful battlefield control available, without being as fragile or useless with weapons as a wizard/sorc. The buffing power is on top of that.
2nd edition was probably the craziest, through the first few levels a bard could be as good a caster as the wizard and as good a fighter as a paladin or ranger, due to using the fastest chart.
>>44245537
>have a history of awesomeness in song and story
That's nothing to brag about when bards write all the songs and stories.
>>44245707
>I don't know, it just feels like sophomoric "I conquer all the lady parts" to me.
Consider the people who play these games.
Only complaint I'd ever make of bard players is them not realizing they're meant to do more than one or two things in the group. Instead I tend to get players being just a worse rogue or ranger.
Jealousy
Bards get all the bitches
Even the female bards get the bitches
>>44245502
I still think Eclipse Caste Exalted are the best Diplomancer class, and they don't have to play a fucking instrument. (Also, their ability to learn every form of magic in the game is awesome.)
The signature Eclipse in Exalted is Swan, the nicest guy of the group. He's also the dude with the heart-exploding Martial Arts combo.
Seriously, warrior-diplomat is a lot cooler than Bard.
I don't know. I play a bard in a game with 6 players (bigger party then we're used to so I figured i'd give it a try) and so far it's pretty fun.
>skald that writes the stories of the other PC
>shouts epics and sagas in battle to inspire and incite ragePF savage skald.
>the group is having tons of fun
>I can back up the rogue and others when needed.
On the other hand I played with a faggot who played a bard that refused to fight
>saids bards are about buffing with tunes and nothing else
>barely useds his skills
>fucking dead weight in the party
Our priest ended up throwing him down a cliff after he tryed to cut down a rope bridge with a party member still crossing.they had an argument IRL and he thought he'd get revenge in-gameneedless to say our DM showed him the door after a fruitlessly long chat.
>>44246326
Nobody plays an Eclipse as a diplomat, even thought that's supposed to be the point of them. People play them to play an ungodly optimized hack of charms that were never meant to be used together and split the game wide open.
In D&D terms, you don't play it for Zone of Truth, you play it for the Locate City nuke.
Because they didn't inject mana into the black mage so they could spam their flare combo and that's why we lost the coil again Trevor.
>>44245502
You can pretty much entirely blame the movie "The Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising."
>>44245502
Because of 3.x.
...People don't like me?
>>44245784
2e bards were powerhouses. Fast XP advancement, wizard spells, decent THAC0, some thief skills, plus their own unique abilities.
3e kept all this in form, but in practice the only thing that meant something was the spellcasting, and having a partial progression meant that bards were tier 3 at best. Plus being a support character is relatively useless when you are in a game dominated by spellcasters.
4e made bards cool again with good utility and good buffing. I don't know about 5e bards except that they have huge heads.
>>44245502
Bards are cheesy and stupid. A guy who sings of the deeds of heroes isn't a very good fit as a hero, himself. It's like the president of a celebrity fan-club who is also an A-list celebrity. Also, you have one guy who is a master of the sword, another who can move like shadow and strike from the darkness, another who harnesses the mighty power of sorcery, and then that one totally awesome guy who plays a guitar!! Is that badass!? He's like if your favorite band's guitarist was thrust into the world of Dungeons & Dragons. How could that not totally rock!?
Lame.
>>44245502
Because they're into kinky stuff like that.
>>44248002
4E Bards were the better of all. Singing a song while slashing away.
>>44245502
>>change "bardic music" from a perform check to a spellcraft check
>>give them a "song" which grants AC and DR
>>remove some illusion and enchantment to add defensive spells (resist energy, shield, Mage armor, etc)
Instant shieldmage
I've always wanted to do a game where every player was a musician in real life and a bard in game. Everybody brings their instruments and we have impromptu jam sessions where appropriate.
>>44245502
Bards are jack of all trades master of none. It's better to have a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric individually.
>>44249022
>It's better to have a Fighter, Rogue
KEK
>>44249036
>everything is 3.x
>>44249067
>playing 4e
>playing 5e
>playing 2e
>playing 1e
Shit game, no content, dead game, dead game, in that order. If you aren't playing 3.X or preferably a different system you're pathetic.
>>44249022
>Jack of all trades, Master of none, but better than a master of one
FINISH THE QUOTE YOU DINGUS
10/10 choice if your party's bases are covered and you need to fill gaps.
FUCK.
>>44249111
>5e
>no content
Literally all you need is core you autist
>>44249111
To be fair 1e is not only a dead game, but brutally difficult to the point that its almost broken.
>>44249139
>this is what WotC actually believes.
>>44249139
Pls go, shill
I dislike bards because in a party based game, being a specialist is better than being a generalist.
In combat, you have one action per round generally, so you're going to EITHER be attacking with a sword, OR casting a spell. Being able to do both but worse is pointless.
Better to just play a rogue for the damage or a wizard for the spells. The bard buff songs are largely irrelevant and weak. You have to trust your team to make up for your weak spots.
>>44249111
4E is the most balanced of all.
>>44249111
>even considering D&D
how plebeian
>>44249219
>implying balance automatically means it's good
>implying balance and fairness are the same
I'm too lazy to form a coherent argument but it'd be something like once everyone is super no one is. When they balanced 4e it came at the cost of making it fucking boring.
>>44246287
Not all bards are interested in bitches.
Just most of them.
>>44249304
>When they balanced 4e it came at the cost of making it fucking boring.
>this is what 3tards actually think
Okay, you can go ahead spend half the session arguing about how one of your spells work while me and my group are over here having epic fantasy fights. Excuse me, I have to go suplex a mountain giant right now.
>>44248674
that's why we don't see bards as singers or minstrels but as university students in our DnD campaign
>>44249344
Epic strawman lad
>>44249369
Sorry, you're going to have to speak up. The mountain giant is crying for mercy so loud after I broke his shoulder that I can't hear your epic memes.
>>44246650
The only Solar I've ever played was an Eclipse, and he was very much a Diplomat.
Hell, the only time I ever used charmshare was to get frankly suboptimal Sidereal Bureaucracy Charms for flavor reasons.
>>44249396
>shitposting
Is this all 4etards have? How sad.
>playing 5 ed bard
>mfw I heal more than the cleric
>mfw I have more AC than the tank
>mfw I slash better than the monk
>mfw I have the best support spells bar none
>mfw unbeatable in social situations
>>44249427
I know right? xD
+1 upboated my fellow memester
>>44249036
>>44249111
>>44249304
Oh god. It's kinda pathetic to see nerds act like their taste is the superior one when it's awful.
You know what? I am not even going to argue with you I won't ruin the buzz the booze is giving me over that.
Here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B88FrTDVwCNXSXhvWS1kR3Zyb3c/view?ths=true
Everything that's wrong with your precious 3.X
4e is the best edition. More versatility in role play as long as you're actually creative and don't depend on a book to tell you how your character should act. Most balanced with everybody having their own role. Yes everyone is super; but in their own way. As a result everyone is actually different not the exact same.
You're right in your original reply to my post that 4 Wizards is much more optimized than a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard, but you missed my point partly because 3.X is such an awful system.
>>44249330
I'll take he-bitches, though.
>>44246326
>Diplomancer
This makes me think of a mage that somehow powers magic spells by getting people to agree with each other.
>>44249402
I guess you were a rare exception. Everyone I've seen who wanted to play a social character was like "Ride? Sail? fucking Bureaucracy? Eclipses are dorks; I'm playing a Zenith."
>>44245502
They can't handle the friendship.
>>44249200
Unless your playing at high levels, spells are fairly finite resource. Having a character that can save spell available for the right situations and still contribute when not casting is an useful addition to most parties. A caster that doesn't requires much less protection leaves a fighter free to go all out on enemies. A combatant that can adapt to unusual circumstances or disable moderate threats quickly keeps pressure of the caster.
As far as skills go bards may not have the special abilities of rogues but they can bump their numbers almost as high and still fill the sneaky guy roll without much trouble.
The trick to a bard is knowing how to set up a situation and using one abilitie to enhance another.
Use a debuff before attacking or sneak into the best position to launch a spell. Fascinate is a great opener when you need close a gap or get a normally unstealth party past some baddies. Invisibility is always useful even if you arn't a full caster.
A classic four man party is great but it's not the only way to play.
Replacing a wizard or rogue with a bard loses some all out power but nets the party some strategic flexability adaptablity and an extra hand when one role is needed over others.
bard is pretty much a straight upgrade from rogue 90% of the time.
My players hate the race's bard
>>44249160
Are you imagination impaired?
>>44245707
Because why settle for mere mortal women who sit in courts and have no life experience, knowledge or adventure in their hearts when there's ancient dragons, demons and non-corporeal beings who can offer so much more? Sorcerous bloodlines have to start somewhere you know.
>>44249516
>says the nerd who believes their taste is superior
>>44249641
I specialized in Socialize and Linguistics and wrote letters so scathing that their recipients literally died of shame upon reading it.
>>44249143
>brutally difficult
Heh.
>>44249516
I am almost convinced that no one who likes 3.5 posts anymore and it is just you twats making up a boogeyman to scream about.
>>44249516
>4e is the best edition. More versatility in role play as long as you're actually creative and don't depend on a book to tell you how your character should act.
Does 4e have rules and content for dungeoneering and wilderness exploration yet? It was the lack of those that turned me off of 4th edition, not the lack of "rules for roleplaying".
Moving all noncombat spells and utility abilities (unless you were a Rogue) over to rituals also had me pretty sour on 4e.
>>44252165
>dungeoneering
That's a skill.
>>44248002
5E bards are the strongest spellcasting class, with a full 9th-level track of buff and control, an extremely strong skill chassis, the ability to either specialize in skill and debuffing or become the best out-of-the-box gish, and most importantly, repeated opportunities to steal spells from all other classes, including 9th-level spells like Meteor Swarm (which is worth casting now if you need to kill like 500 high-level people at once) and Foresight.
Other classes have their shtick - wizards are better with particular thematic schools, sorcerers are the only class that has metamagic now, including Quicken - but the bard has the best list, the best general versatility, and the best total contribution to the success of a party.
As a drawback, rogues are better at playing instruments now.
>>44245502
>5e bard
Life is pretty good
>>44247466
I love that goofy movie but surely this trend started before then
>>44252284
fuck yeah
it's about time red mages finally got their due
>>44248674
>don't mind me
>i just felt like ignoring long established tropes of music and art having immense power
>>44252284
I have always loved bards, but I'm a bit annoyed that 5e bards pretty much never have to use their perform skill for anything.
Doesn't stop me from playing a bard in our 5e ToH run
>>44252409
>music and art having immense power
Arts major pls go.
>>44252284
How are Rogues better at playing instruments? Bards get Expertise too.
>>44245502
Because Bards, in the modern D&D tense of bards, aren't ever really good at doing anything. They're the 5th-wheel class you get to bolster other classes instead doing any one job well.
>>44252484
so then what do you like?
is it nothing?
surely you like something
>>44252589
I like things, but I wouldn't say they have immense power in any way.
>>44252599
that's good and all
WHAT do you like?
you don't exist in a cultural vacuum, anon
these things shape your emotions, memories and even your positions on things in a very real way
the things you take in have some sort of influence on you
>>44252484
Materials sciences and nanotechnology masters holder here. Art has an enormous power. Even more than any bard can represent, at least.
>>44252649
>these things shape your emotions, memories and even your positions on things in a very real way
I can't say that they do.
>>44252484
What is Norse mythology?
>>44252714
Outdated?
>>44252705
you still haven't said anything that you like
>>44252284
Bards cannot use meteor swarm, they can only use Foresight Power Word Heal Power Word Kill True Polymorph.
>>44252730
fine then, Christian mythology
hugely influential stories with or without fedoras
>>44245846
That should tell you something right there when all the Fighters and Rogues and Wizards get to hog the limelight.
>>44252784
At 18th level their magical secrets ability lets them take any 2 spells from any class list, which lets them get meteor swarm if they so desired.
>>44249641
You're right in that the choices are pretty lame. But again, you don't have to take 'em. I know I never take Ride or Sail, for example, because fuck Ride and Sail. And Bureaucracy.
>>44252902
Solar Bureaucracy was so disappointing that I had to Charmshare into Sidereal Bureaucracy (as I said in the initial post about this particular Eclipse) just to be able to do what I wanted to do with the Ability.
>>44245707
>I mean sure you can fuck the busty tart in the wheat fields, but why degrade yourself like that when you can be the paramour of a courtier, or countess?
Because the busty tart knows how to move in bed.
Or on the table.
Or floor.
Or out in the fields.
>>44252488
Because Rogues have a minimum roll of 10 and, at level 20, can set their roll to "20" once every SHORT rest.
Lore Bards can add their own Bardic Inspiration to their rolls at level 14, which gives them a higher possible maximum but no consistency, and non-Lore Bards (for now just Valor, but I'm sure we'll get the usual heal-bards and Thriller bards and look-at-my-sultry-dryad-companion-dance-while-I-Survival Bards eventually) are straight fucked.
>>44252784
Bards can use Meteor Swarm just fine, anon. Also Time Stop, Gate, Weird, Wish, whatever they pick. Check out Magical Secrets.
EDIT: ninja'd lol
>>44245502
Because bards are into that.
>>44245707
How do you know what the pick of the litter is until you've fucked the whole litter? What's good for the farmer is good for the minstrel.
Bards are best as DM PC's for the party prima donna to snuggle with.
>>44252974
>Caring about anything above level 10
Literally why.
>>44254822
>only playing progression
My group acts out the history of our setting with some high level characters in one shot adventures, or fighting high CR monsters in areas. Pretty fun stuff, it's nice that higher levels are actually playable in 5E.
>>44252488
Why does Expertise matter? You can't take expertise in an instrument.
>>44254822
Because there are circles in which people know the system well enough to use it at those heights and play games and have fun. My local group just got one game to break into 21st level, and we Started one a few years ago at 30 and have gotten to 32 since.
>>44255046
You can in Perform, though.
>>44249396
What mechanic did you use to break a shoulder, out of curiosity? Did he take negatives when using that arm?
Because, y'know, any game can be fun when the DM just embellishes the shit out of everything for you.
>>44255046
Expertise in Performance is Expertise in every instrument in every context that matters. It doesn't help you to play the chords from a purely technical standpoint, but it's what you need to actually play MUSIC.
>>44250766
>>44245910
>>44245707
>>44245542
>>44255036
>the one in the background with the knife
Jesus christ I never realized he was getting betafagged in front of his WIFE. Why the fuck would anyone play a race of childish manlets on purpose, that's some Cursed Item shit. I'm pretty sure in my game Corellian Lothlorien made halflings by cursing strong white males who fucked elvish queens
>>44245537
>have a history of awesomeness in song and story
Duh. Who do you think writes all the songs and stories?
>>44252165
>Does 4e have rules and content for dungeoneering and wilderness exploration yet?
Skill checks, same as it was in every other edition.
>Moving all noncombat spells and utility abilities (unless you were a Rogue) over to rituals also had me pretty sour on 4e.
Most were, true, but rituals could be taken by literally anyone for a feat. I think most classes had normal non-combat utility powers too.
If anything, I think 4e's biggest failing in the utility powers is that they take up the same choice space as combat utility powers. Getting more utility powers, but having the non-combat and combat utility lists being separate would have been a good improvement.
>>44255250
Till end of encounter attack penalty daily.
I'll have to double check which/if that's a daily though, I was mostly just exaggerating for comedic effect.
>>44245502
Let's see if I'm actually right on my history, it's a little shaky.
Pretty sure back in the day Bards (in 1st ed?) Were closer to a prestige class because you needed levels in multiple different classes to even be a bard. Which also meant actually Surviving multiple levels in 1st ed d&d, which was notorious for outright killing players forever.
So back in the day a person whose character lived to be a bard was most likely a veteran and a valuable member of the team.
Cut to third and other game modes where bards are basic classes and suddenly any idiot can be a bard regardless of their skill and dedication to the role.
To make matters worse, the bard is actually (shockingly) a surprisingly silly class idea, so first timers are given the opportunity to play as a silly dumb class and play lutes and be useless in combat.
Cut to now when Bards are considered the joke class.
>>44256678
Pretty wrong, yeah. Originally bards were weirdly-designed red mages. Third Edition made them a standard class focused on the support role, with musical buffs and lots of illusion and enchantment, but due to the mechanics they ended up being a very middle-of-the-road class. Adding insult to injury is that being middle-of-the-road and support-oriented is kind of pointless - the things they wanted to do full casters also wanted to do, and they had no real niche, unlike trash-tier fighters who could at least power attack for lots of damage after the wizard was done violating the necromancer's cute apprentice with rubbery black tentacles. So in 3E and 3.5E, they were mostly useless and achieved joke class status.
Immediately in 4E they're effective again as powerful battlefield support and controllers, as good as any other class, really. 4E is astoundingly well-balanced and does tactical combat better than...pretty much every other game ever, but the "feel" is wrong, so no one likes 4E, which is fair enough.
In 5E, which is NOW, bards are arguably the strongest overall class, back to being omnicompetent red mages with the added twist of being full spellcasters who can cherrypick all other spell lists. They're not really overwhelmingly good at anything except spellcasting, but they are overwhelmingly good at spellcasting, they're competent at several other things simultaneously, and they bring unparalleled support to the rest of the party all at the same time. It's a very interesting design point: they're arguably pretty overpowered, but they never really FEEL overpowered, it's all on paper - the fighter is better at swording and won't feel threatened at swordsmanship, but for how good the bard can be at swordmanship they probably shouldn't occupy a similar "almost" status to the entire rest of the party while still being a primary spellcaster. It's the "almost" that keeps there from really being a problem.
