How does the warp work? If it's just a collection of souls and emotions then how can the eldar gods die
warp always existed with the material world, however it became hostile and dangerous with emotions of living beings and subsequently chaos. emotions and actions give birth to gods but they can be killed which doesn't mean that the related souls/emotions are destroyed though because they exist even without the persona of the related god.
the idea of khorne had existed looong before khorne woke up and with khorne's death it would still exist
>>44245116
So could the eldar remake their gods by believing them to be alive
>>44245039
The Warp is thoughts, beliefs, and emotions of all life across time and infinite realties. It's a reflection of the material world, but the beings in it can influence it if they desire to. Without it there would be a meaningless soulless existence (see Necrons), but if it dominates the material world reality would be destroyed and you would have a meaningless lifeless existence.
The reason why it's a nightmare and why everything is taken to the extreme dates back to before humanity existed. The War in Heaven changed the Warp, and then human emotions helped three out of four of the parasitic Chaos Gods to become self-aware. The birth of the worst Chaos God falls on the Eldar though. As for their Gods, they're still alive but trapped in Slaanesh's stomach. Minus the Laughing God, Khaine, and Isha though they avoided Slaanesh's digestive system.
>>44245185
it's not a matter of belief, it's just something you your species generates i guess. maybe once a god from a species' pantheon dies that same species can't generate the god again. this is getting too headcanony4me
>>44245039
Emotions coalesce into systems of vortexes that, despite the greater abstraction and more irregular movements, are not so different from the most basics of autopoietic systems (aka life as we know it), these primordial entities can kind of clash with each other be it a conscious action of the vortex or a mere case.
Eventually bigger fish eats smaller fish, and a "god" getting devoured becomes a mitochondria analog to the greater life form, its vortex becoming but a small part of the greater, or it gets destroyed to its basic components that then get redirected and repurposed.
In short, there's no such thing as an emotion specific to a god, there're emotions gods use to live off.
Same with the chaos gods themselves, with the difference that they are so big and vague in all their parts that killing them and eating them would only result in you becoming them.
The more complex the vortex, the more difficult to eradicate.
You can't eradicate basic thoughts like the perception of power, the perception of potential, the perception of movement and the perception of stillness.
Don't know if this helps answering your question.
The gods cease to exist only in the same way you do when you die: They die as a result of a certain rearrangement and vortex movements, but their basic component emotions are still around.
Mostly in slaanesh's belly in this case.
>>44245304
Could a mortal consume a God some how to make themselves a God. The idea worries me if someone worse than Matt Ward comes along.
>>44245409
Can an ant consume an ocean?
>>44245409
Yes, in theory; in practice the mortal would need to be able to amass enormous amounts of energy.
You can get by yourself that a mortal would amass warp energy from one universe usually, while a basic god feeds on countless realities, to call it an uphill battle is underestimating just a bit and using heavy dose of sarcasm.
What a mortal can do, however, seems to have a relative stronger power, an analogy would be the magnetic and the gravitational pull, where gravity is a force so influential that it alone can shape a great deal of an universe and its most obvious confirmations, while 2 magnets on a more restricted system can easily overshadow such a pull with their own.
In terms of warp, chaos gods feed off and are spread along multiple realities, while a single being with a strong enough will can amass the comparatively smaller energy of its own to a higher density capable of resisting against the powerful pull of the greater vortex.
Potentially cutting off its currents on a determined area.
Relativity is a great bitch to discuss about.
Especially accompanied by interdumiversal metaphysics of a fictional multiverse.
>>44245425
Is the ant related to the hungry caterpillar?
>>44245554
The part that worries me now is that it seems possible even though it is unrealistic. One shit writer wanting to up the stakes to high and we will be jumping the Bloodthirster
>>44245409
In relative terms willful people can integrate the energy of gods into their own personal vortex, the most just integrate it enough for a redirection and a psychic manifestation, but it is not impossible to start keeping the energy you attract into your own vortex with the purpose of expanding it, eating of a greater vortex of you will.
The problem is that many, too many things can go wrong:
First of all, everybody kinda suffers his own proportion of physical stress per psychic stress, a physical body has limits.
Secondly, even psychic capacity has its own limits, less definable, but clearly correlated to the willpower of the individual on top of natural predisposition, whether will can overcome natural predisposition is possible, but unlikely in most cases, human minds can be weak too.
Thirdly, you have the problem of trying to impose a force defined by being chaotic and without limits into an ordained pattern linked to a material and limit frame that is a living being, mistress randomness here starts playing dice with the reality around and composing you at some point; again, will can potentially be able to mitigate this things, but as said both body and mind are often weak.
Lastly, the vortex you are feeding off is conscious, you are a fool if you think it will not try to react and defend itself; when being a smaller fish, attracting a focused attention from a bigger fish, you're going to have a bad time.
>>44245712
The thing is, when you think about the schemes of beings like the emperor and the desired win condition of the eldar, these unlikely things start making sense as logical steps in moving the narrative at some point.
But moving the narrative is shit when done on greater levels anyway.
They already did it with fantasy and it was poorly done: See the whole incarnates thing and the creation of the new gods of order.
>>44245806
How could they have done fantasy better btw
>>44245039
The Warp isn't just thoughts and emotions. It's a realm of pure psychic energy that REFLECTS the thoughts and emotions of sentients, especially in the physical world. It takes the shape of thoughts, but it's not a realm of pure thought.
So a warp daemon is a creature that can have its own independent sentience and ideas and plans. In fact, the more successful ones either realize this or inadvertently embody ideas and emotions that are self-sustaining. Slaanesh is seductive because of two things simultaneously: she knows that seduction encourages states of mind in mortals that help sustain her, AND also because seduction is intrinsic to her nature.
You could imagine a daemon devoted to some lesser concept that because of its nature, chooses not to "proselytize". Over decades and centuries such beings tend to weaken and eventually dissipate. It's the ideas that are most compelling to mortals, and that have some notion of propagating themselves already in there, that create powerful Daemons, up to and including the Ruinous Powers themselves.
As to how the Eldar "gods" died, lets first remember that they're simply powerful daemons. So they were sustained and shaped by Eldar belief and tradition.
cont...
>>44248896
>As to how the Eldar "gods" died, lets first remember that they're simply powerful daemons. So they were sustained and shaped by Eldar belief and tradition.
(This is true regardless of whether they were originally beings spawned by the Old Ones. One way or another, by this point they were wholly creatures of eldar mythos.)
Continuing:
Before the Fall, the eldar had lost their faith and turned decadent and selfish. Whether they still believed in their religion on paper is moot: they'd lost faith as a practical matter and only believed in themselves and their own carnal desires. Metaphorically speaking, their appetites had devoured their religion.
And metaphor is made real in the Warp.
So when the Fall happened, those so-called gods were disrupted in the warp explosion just like any other daemons would be. And unable to reform, because the eldar minds that had sustained them were now wholly owned subsidiaries of Slaanesh. The few minds that remain, however powerful individually, are too few and too feeble to reform those deities.
Especially since half of them remain devoted to advancing the cause of slaanesh (even if they don't consider themselves servants of slaanesh*). All remaining eldar believe their gods to have been devoured in any event. So devoured they are. But even if they didn't believe that, not enough remain for their belief to reform the pantheon.
* This is pretty much straight-up Tolkien right here, incidentally. The Sons of Feanor considered themselves to be the most ferocious of Morgoth's enemies, but their actions always advanced his moral cause of evil. Morgoth laughed at how his "enemies" did his work for him... but of course Tolkien points out that however he denies it, Morgoth's most evil deeds remain part of the plan of Illuvatar. His very rebellion contains the seeds of its own defeat.
>>44245039
>How does the warp work? If it's just a collection of souls and emotions then how can the eldar gods die
Same way ice melts in a drink despite both being water.
>>44245276
Does this mean The Emperor is a god due to humanity believing he is one?
>>44245039
It's like hell
On drugs
In space
>>44245039
In the old Realm of Chaos books it was realm reflected life and flowed naturally with the world. When sapient life arose, their emotions and dreams caused ripples in the warp. In time these ripples pooled up and formed great vortices. In time these gained sentience and became known as the Chaos gods.
In the 5e Necron codex it says that the warp contained peaceful being native to the warp, but the War in Heaven corrupted the warp with all the psychic warfare used and these beings became corrupted and hostile, lashing out at the material realm and the Old Ones. Earlier fluff mentions the Enslaver Plague that resulted from the War in Heaven as the barrier between real space and the warp was weakened.
>how can the eldar gods die
By being consumed by another being, such as Slaanesh. There's very little that can destroy warp energy for good. In the Realm of Chaos books telling the story of the Emperor's and Horus' duel, it says that the Emperor unleashed a mighty psychic blow that destroyed Horus' soul. The novel Farseer mentions the Deathsword, a malicious Eldar weapon made to destroy daemons by consuming them.
More often daemons are taken out by binding them. This doesn't destroy them, merely cages them and prevents them from doing harm. The GK use tesseract labyrinths for the most dangerous daemons. These are pocket dimensions with no connection to the warp, thus the daemon can't return to it and is trapped until released.
>>44249529
Some people believe the Emprah will become a new god when the Throne fails and his soul is finally free to leave his body. Unfortunately, this may involve the creation of a new Eye of Terror around Terra.
>>44250589
Others, such as the Thorians, believe his spirit wanders the warp, guiding his followers through the Emperor's Tarot cards and granting small portions of his power to worthy people, bringing about legends of saints and miracles. They also believe he's looking for a suitable body to house his spirit.
>>44245276
You could get a God with the same domain, I suppose. It wouldn't be the same but.. Reincarnated? A child?
You just need that domain to be charged with a LOT of psychic energy and to give it some space so they new clump of thought and spirit can emerge and gain an identity.
Problem is the chaos gods stamp out and eat any potential competitors. The only powers other than them are those that are already in their domain and thus technically a part of them.
Unless I've fucked up my lore again.
>>44250928
Then why didn't they eat Slaanesh before it became self-aware?
>>44245409
Theoretically, but in practice that would be impossible.
It can however work on a smaller scale. One of the Black Crusade books features a Slaaneshi daemon prince who ascended to daemonhood by essentially reverse-possessing a Keeper of Secrets: the daemon possessed her, but her willpower was so strong (or perhaps more accurately, she was so self-centered) that she managed to trap the dameon in her mind and take its power. Slaanesh thought that was funny as hell and made her a daemn prince.
>>44250928
>he doesn't even know of the starchild
>>44250956
According to 6e daemon codex, due to the nature of the warp, as far as the dark gods are aware, Slaanesh has always existed. They don't perceive time like we do, so to them he's always been around.
>How does the warp work? If it's just a collection of souls and emotions then how can the eldar gods die
On a meta level, they likely died when massive amounts of eldar died and that was it. There's also a lot of mythology that can be explained by psychic powers basically duking it out or working against eachother on a higher plane, i.e. the warp.
>Firstborn son of Chaos. Older than any being beneath the Chaos Gods
>Supposedly millions of years old
>Has memories of the first Necrontyr world and the Eldar homeworlds
If the Daemon Prince Be'lakor is older than the Chaos Gods, then how did they elevate him to Undivided daemonhood?
I think I found a plothole guys!
>>44251184
Yes, between Be'lakor's ass cheeks.
Seriously, fuck that guy. He doesn't belong in 40k and he's nothing more than C'tan 2.0.
how do the webways work
>>44251291
It's an artificial pocket universe built between the material and the immaterial ones, being able to take the best of both worlds: An ordained pattern from the material universe and the potential possibilities and energy of the warp, thus allowing stable and fast connections between places acting as a bridge.
>>44251291
Basica: tunnels inside the warp.
There is something that keeps the whole warp fuckery at bay, makes some sort of empty, but reality/material based space inside, while being surrounded by warp. Like submerging a tube in water, you have air inside of the tube, but you need something else, a material to make a frontier between the air and the water, so in the same way, there is something to keep the warp energy outside of the webway.
The old ones had the key to that. Eldar know how to psychically keep the warp out so they can make temporary in and outs to get aspect warriors some place for example, but at the cost of their own energy. I think finding that "material" to make the webwas was exactly what Emps was working on in his lab.
Also, realise that if you know what keeps warp energy out, you could also keep warp energy inside the material and stop it from escaping. I think this is also something the chaos gods were very, very afraid off, that someone would discover a material to make warp "prisons".
>>44251469
It's not in the warp. It's between warp and real space.
>>44251281
Man, we have known for years that the Chaos Gods can't plan for shit. That's why Chaos needed Be'lakor for their epic scheme "Just as planning" and also explain how Abaddon among the countless Chaos champions managed to rise to be te Ascendant of Chaos. Basically, he is here to counter the Mary Sue factor and make the Chaos narrative believable. 40K needs him.
>Known as the first Daemon Prince, Be'lakor has stalked the worlds of the Imperium since the beginnings of mortal memory. Favoured of the four Chaos Gods, he has ever been in the midst of their plots and plans, his own manipulations and schemes reach far across the stars and down through the millennia. As the End Times draw close, Be'lakor once again musters his power in the shadows, standing in the shadow of Abaddon the Despolier as he embarks upon his 13th Black Crusade.
>>44251479
My bad. I really thought they were warp tunnels.
>>44251497
Fuck off, carnac-wannabe.
>>44245039
Alright, not exact point of this topic but since we are talking warp, how do Navigators work?
So they have this eye that can look into the warp without their brain melting, and they mutate. But how did it came to be? Natural evolution? Genetic fuckery? Why do some people refer to their eye as a "warp canal"?
I also read "Farseer" by William King not too long ago and there is a scene where the navigator looks straight at a demon with the third eye wide open, and he doesn't go mad or seems affected, and the demon doesn't see him. Are they human turkeys stuffed with warp inside? If so, why aren't they like psykers?
>>44251565
No.
The world needs the truth.
>>44251576
>why aren't they like psykers
They are psykers. Their skills are just honed in a specific way.
We don't know what gave birth to the navigators, though they bear the navigator gene, which is found only in certain lineages, known as the Navis Nobilite. It's possible they're the result of experimentation during the DAoT when psykers first emerged.
Navigators don't always "see" the warp. They merely have a heightened sense of the landscape of the warp that their brains can interpret in various ways. It can be visions, smells, sounds, etc. In the BFG rulebook there's a quote from a navigator saying they're not allowed to talk about what they see and that it's experienced differently by each navigator.
The benefits of this sensitivity is that it gives the vessel some sense of where it's heading. You can drop into the warp, fly towards a certain direction and then emerge, but warp currents and such can affect your course and on longer voyages can take you far off course. Navigators can sense these currents and can adjust. Additionally they can sense the Astronomican, which gives them a fixed point on which to focus, thus making navigation much easier.
>>44251479
Well actually it is - in 1k sons Magnus swims through the warp and hacks into a tunnel
>>44250956
Taste
Slaanesh was the apotheosis of excess and indulgence - emotions the others for really have much power over
Having said that khornates bloodlust comes close
Also slaanesh existed in potentia b4 the fall the same way the emperor does now so likely had champions working to its awakening
>>44253939
>"The webway exists between the material realm and the Warp."
-Codex: Craftworlds
Take your BL shit and shove it up your dick.
>>44254844
Where does BL say the Webways are in the Warp?
>>44251576
According to the 7th Edition lore book, Navigators are mutants whose mutation is neither spontaneous or natural, but rather the result of genetic experimentation and engineering during the Age of Technology. Originally Navigator families were controlled by industrial and trade cartels, but became forces in their own right by M19.
>>44254921
It's more like Magnus entered it from the Warp, there are numerous spars that it is said have one way or another been accessed by Chaos.
>>44257861
Anon said it's in the warp:
>>44251469
>Basica: tunnels inside the warp.
>>44251479
>It's not in the warp.
>>44253939
>Well actually it is
>there are numerous spars that it is said have one way or another been accessed by Chaos.
As far as I've read, they're all the result of the webway collapsing and allowing daemons to get in. I've not read about Chaos just breaching an intact section of the webway from the warp.
>>44245039
It's literally Collective Seizure: The Dimension.
>>44245039
similar thoughts, emotions and ideals hold all that shit together.
the warp is pretty much event horizon. ship vanishes for 7 years and it re emerges alive and hates you.
