Is it possible to play a good fascist?
By good, I mean your DnD definition. Good is a tangible force in the world, it's own agency, opposed by evil.
And I do not use fascist as a synonym for tyrant, or totalitarian (though it could be those things.)
If so, what is the best way to approach this system of governance?
If not, what is the closest one can come to a totalitarian utopia?
>>44213630
This is going to get a ton of redirects to >>>/pol/, but I don't see why you couldn't. Just don't kill innocent people and steal and you're good.
>>44213630
If you just describe the economic aspect of Italian or German fascism without actually using the word fascism, like 90% of people will agree that it sounds like a good idea. In fact, most people wouldn't be able to meaningfully distinguish it from how the government interacts with capital today.
Like most dangerous political ideologies it seems like a really cool idea until you get to the part about actually implementing it and how much power needs to be concentrated in the hands of a small number of people for it to work.
>>44213630
>good fascist?
Go start reading about Mount Celestia. Needs to be enough detail to start giving you bits about each of the layers.
Then go read about the plane of Arcadia.
When you are done reading both entries come back to /tg/ and ask the same question if you still need to.
>>44213695
So the only shortcoming is human corruptability.
The system would work perfectly with a legitimately pure cadre of Paladins at the helm, right?
>>44213660
To add on to this, you could use the Starship Troopers book as an example of 'good fascism'.
I'm also not really sure where the character's governmental ideology would come up in the game, but whatever.
>>44213630
Yes
Meting out justice according to the law without mercy or compassion was actually the original definition of Lawful Good
>>44213720
I think so. It's hard to tell because we've never had a fascist government last long enough to see whether the people in the country fuck it up, because the leaders always fuck it up first.
In general though I'd say that any system where the political class is actually unambiguously ethical and non-corrupt is a system that's going to function better than any one we have in the real world today.
>>44213630
>And I do not use fascist as a synonym for tyrant, or totalitarian (though it could be those things.)
Best, then, to define fascism before asking what alignments are compatible with it.
>>44213630
Judge Dredd was actually created by the question of how bad a world has to be for fascism to be a positive.
So there's that.
>>44213630
1) It depends on what alignment you use. The descriptions for alignment vary drastically between editions, from "where do you stand on the cosmic conflict" to "are you a serial rapist?"
2) Are you asking what the best way to approach fascism is? I don't understand this question.
3) Fascism is not a utopian governmental system, as it is explicitly a nationalist, militaristic ideology that glorifies war as a useful and masculine thing to be pursued almost for its own sake. I think Mussolini or Hitler would laugh if you suggested it was utopian- it was a response to the conditions of the country as they saw it, and if you asked them what their ideal world would look like, it almost certainly would not be a fascist one.
Of course, fascists are notoriously self-contradictory. If you read what Mussolini or Hitler thought, you can see that it's a slammed together jumble of "whatever works right now," with considerations for the future unimportant until the ever-vague "final victory" happened.
fascism is not by it's definition a tyrannical ideal, it's not even a racist ideal, you can perfectly well play a lawful good fascist, just don't confuse it with nazism.
>>44213720
But that argument could be applied to all political systems.
Fantasy deities tend to have limited portfolios though. St. Cuthbert doesn't care about GMO labels, Elhonna has no stake in road regulation, and Corellon Larethian has no domain over immigration and anti-smuggling rings.
>>44213630
>I do not use fascist as a synonym for tyrant, or totalitarian
Well, all the fascist governments that we had in the 20th century were at least moderately totalitarian. I'm inclined to say that with the amount of power that is concentrated in relatively few people in fascist systems it is by definition totalitarian. The economic control/influence the government has over corporations and the state corporation idea is very authoritarian.
Then I think the argument becomes whether totalitarianism is bad. I think it is, for religious reasons, but I think that if it were run by definitively 'good' people then at the very least the population of the nation would be treated well and fairly.
>>44213825
The actual political model used by fascist countries (to my knowledge just Italy and Germany.)
Far right, state controls means of production, democracy is non-existent, ultra-nationalism. A handful of other interchangeable bits and pieces.
The particular pieces I'm looking at are the removal of undesirables of the state. In that case it'd be literally evil people and monsters, forced to either actual re-education or what have you.
Would Auschwitz have been less evil if it was for vampires?
>>44213978
you just gave me an idea.
imagine concentration camps showers, but instead of that you put runes that use sunlight, you stuff all the camptured vampires in there and then activate the runs.
puff
vampires gone in a literal flash
>>44214014
err, captured*
>>44213978
>Would Auschwitz have been less evil if it was for vampires?
Yeah, since killing Lawful Neutral Undead is still evil. Devotees of Evening Glory, that LG lichepope prestige class, and such.
Plus in no way could Mengele ever not be evil.
Plus you have the fact that now alignment isn't a strict rule anymore, so killing babies and civilians is evil.
>>44213978
If you go by D&D and good and evil are absolute and that vampires are evil, extermination camps for vampires are good.
>>44213630
>Is it possible to play a good fascist?
Absolutely. Not only is fascism a moral good in virtually all ways, but even if we go by the some of the most erroneous definitions of totalitarianism, Lawful Good is very far from Lawful Nice.
Just google "On alignment, by Gygax" and you should find an article on Hack & Slash. I'd link it, but it keeps wanting to mark my post as spam.
As long as you focus on the good, being extremely Lawful is not a big difference from being a good fascist. Don't kick puppies or drink blood, and you should be fine.
>>44213630
Daily reminder that state capitalism is the best system imaginable.
>>44213978
Spain, Bulgaria, Albania, Panama and the Philipines have all had fascist governments in the 20th century.
>>44213934
No, but some gods do favor personal freedom over other things. Can't have that level of detail for as many gods as DnD has anyway.
>>44213934
I'm trying to think of an exception now, but I suppose you're right. Democracy, communism, and anarchy would all work if everyone was just 'not a dick'.
>>44213978
>Would Auschwitz have been less evil if it was for vampires?
yes
>the removal of undesirables of the state
isn't that basically the plot of dracula? He was trying to set up operations in london, so they chased him out and fucked him up.
>>44213630
>Is it possible to play a good fascist?
Singapore looks to be doing pretty well for itself.
>>44213695
>In fact, most people wouldn't be able to meaningfully distinguish it from how the government interacts with capital today.
Which is actually fucking sad, considering that they're nothing alike.
>Like most dangerous political ideologies it seems like a really cool idea until you get to the part about actually implementing it and how much power needs to be concentrated in the hands of a small number of people for it to work.
Corporativism called, your representativeness is bad and you should FEEL bad, Democracy.
>>44214085
>anarchy
>working even if everyone wasn't a dick
The very basis of anarcho-capitalistic / true libertarianism (which is what I assume you meant) requires that all individuals be rational and self-interested, which would invariably either lead to dickeshness or coordination inefficiencies.
>>44214039
I assume you speak of 4e or 5e things.
More directly, would a concentration camp for literal demons be opposed to lawfulness or goodness? Assuming alignment isn't that flexible in those editions.
>>44214046
I know the article you mean. "I'd murder a murderer" effectively. It's a little distanced from fascism due to the impersonal nature of the governmental machine versus a knight errant righting wrongs, though. Whether that distance matters is the question.
>>44214084
Thanks, I'll check those out while I'm at it.
>>44214045
How many vampires can you get in one place before you get pulled into Ravenloft where alignment means nothing and end up tortured by reality for being an endboss?
>>44214084
>Spain
Que? Are you mistaking Franco's Spain with Fascism?
>>44214139
>I know the article you mean. "I'd murder a murderer" effectively. It's a little distanced from fascism due to the impersonal nature of the governmental machine versus a knight errant righting wrongs, though. Whether that distance matters is the question.
Thing is, the question was whether a fascist can be Good by D&D terms. The answer to that is yes.
A fascist state, though, that could go either way, like any other system, or any other person. There's certainly no shortage of asshole democrats (the system, not the party), either.
>>44214127
You can have a self interest of altruism.
I said it would work, though, not that they'd all be equally efficient. Some societies would prefer the personal freedom over efficiency in theory.
It'd probably be most suited to very small cities or villages.
>>44214014
Sort of like the mass executions for the vampires in Daybreakers.
>>44214203
>You can have a self interest of altruism.
Then they wouldn't be rationally self-interested.
>>44214139
>More directly, would a concentration camp for literal demons be opposed to lawfulness or goodness?
You can't kill them, and using them for labor would be conspiring with them as well as slavery.
It'd be a prison you're just calling a concentration camp.
>Assuming alignment isn't that flexible in those editions.
Demons, Devils, Celestials, and Angels are beings made from their alignment. Its just that Kobold eggs and Orcs that have never done anything else in life but raise the hounds and tend to the wounded are no longer Chaotic Evil.
>>44214141
It was intentionally modeled on the Italian fascism during the war period, and was arguably fascist until at least 1949, and I think until about 1955. I personally believe that the differences until the mid 1950's between Franco's fascism and 'real' fascism are minimal.
Post reforms for sure Franco's government wasn't meaningfully fascist.
![1368727082625[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/xmXRszl.jpg "1368727082625[1].jpg")
>implying anyone here knows what actual fascism is like
just a friendly reminded that you were educated by people who grew up in a post-WW2 environment saturated by anti-fascist propaganda - to the point where many actually still believe that the Nazis made lampshades out of human skin.
two atomic bombs and still nobody thinks to ask what the allied governments would do to their OWN citizens in order to win the war.
>>44214321
>the atomic bombs were bad!
>you can't trust the gubment!
Randlet pls go.
Yeah, kinda obviously - I mean, if supporting shit politics disqualified you from DnD goodness, a lot of people would be out of luck because of monarchism.
But this thread is inevitably just gonna be /pol/ style wank, esp. thanks to "what's the closest one can come to a totalitarian utopia?"
Also, while fascist isn't a synonym for totalitarian, fascism is inherently totalitarian.
>>44213630
It's a contradiction on terms. Fascism removes freedom. Freedom is the highest of values. By violating that freedom you're inherently evil.
>>44214354
>"what's the closest one can come to a totalitarian utopia?"
Singapore
>implying monarchism is bad
Unless you consider hereditary succession integral to monarchy, that is.
>>44214321
We KNOW Mengele had human skin lampshades, he was a creepy fuck.
We also know Goebbels was a crossdresser who wore a nighty to bed.
We also know most of the German military and chunks of the populace was on meth.
>>44214390
It was Goering who was the drug addict transvestite.
To be fair, a huge portion of Allies and Allied civilians were on amphetamines too.
>>44214341
>the atomic bombs were bad!
who said that? They may have been necessary but my question is: what else was 'necessary'? I just find it odd that nobody thinks to ask whether what was said about the nazis during ww2 and its immediate aftermath is entirely trustworthy, given that the information came from people who were willing to incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians in order to win the war.
>>44214438
Anon, most of the bad information about the Nazis came from the Russians, not the Americans or Brits.
What I'm saying is that slavs are untrustworthy and probably not human.
>>44214438
Everybody knows that history is written by the victor.
However, there are arguments against a violent nationalism as the basis for a government that are completely divorced from the second world war, let alone the economic arguments against fascism.that being said, those Nazis and their wacky economics magic really worked some wonders 1933-1942
>>44213978
You're missing a lot of pieces, OP. The problem is that while the fascists did have their own dialectics, moral arguments and political theories these have largely been buried or misrepresented. For example, fascism was in many ways a reaction to internationalism on the left (hence the inclusion of nationalist left-wing elements; Sorelianists and the Italian national syndicalists being the best example) and the advent of "total war" supposedly calling for a new man and new state.
A short example (in greentext, I'm lazy) of how you could have a LG fascist kingdom in a fantasy setting, using the ideas you've already brought up
>Traditional kingdom is wracked by absolutely devastating war with supernatural forces, aided by traitors within the country
>The kingdom survives but is effectively defeated and the old rulers discredited; the traitor/evil elements attempt to seize power in the aftermath
>Holy Paladin order says "fuck this," seizes power and comes to an agreement with the remaining nobility. [Could keep the monarchy if you want, a la Italy, Spain, Romania] Institute militarism, levies, some reform of agriculture etc to militarize the kingdom
>Also gass- err, hangs all the traitors, institute curfew, mandatory attendance at Paladin's church of choice
>Kingdom rallies behind a new flag and nationalist-style slogans, prepares to fight the original evil invader. Paladins encourage widespread quasi-paladin orders and empower local town guards; ideal is that everyone who's not a stupid peasant is now going to be ready to fight and pious as hell.
Or something like that. Now, you'll notice that the Lawful category is pretty clearly hit here. So far as it being Good, as in the actual force "Good," I would say that's met by A) Paladin religious order being overtly good B) they're only killing traitors or necromancers or whatever C) they're actively spreading worship of a good deity
>>44214390
see, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
>We KNOW Mengele had human skin lampshades
wrong on several levels. Firstly, the accusations about the lampshades never referred to Mengele. They were made about the wife of the commandant at Buchenwald, Ilse Koch. Secondly, they weren't true about her - the lampshades in question were proven to be goat skin, a fact that was admitted by none other than the military governor of the American zone of occupation. Apparently nobody thought a little thing like the truth should get in the way of another 'evil nazi' story.
>>44214542
Forgot to mention/ran out of space:
An interesting case study would be Romania's Legion of the Archangel Michael since they were a clerical fascist movement and overtly Christian, and also had a king and shit. They were dicks but it might give you some ideas.
>>44214553
Its not like they mention the lampshades in schools.
World War 2 history for Russia is "Russia stronk", for everyone else its just a study on blind following and the holocaust. Except Americans, who cover Japan a bit too.
>>44214553
And the crimes of Mengele, while abhorrent if even a tenth of them are true are overshadowed by the medical crimes of the Japanese in China.
>>44214292
>>44214141
>>44214084
Also Brazil's Integralists, Hungary's Arrow Cross, and the aforementioned Romanian Iron Guard are all fascist. France's Action Française wasn't fascist but shared a lot of common ground with (especially Italian and Brazilian) fascism.
For a more modern example, Singapore is basically the closest extant state to a fascist regime.
>virulent nationalism, overt racism (but not expansionist)
>extremely authoritarian
>high degree of corporatism and state direction
>social policy right wing
>>44214500
I'm not saying there aren't arguments against fascism, I'm just saying that most people who grew up in a Western country will find it very hard to talk about fascism without letting ww2-era propaganda influence them, simply because they aren't used to thinking of how propaganda has influenced the way they think.
>>44214595
>>44214609
beside the point. The point is that almost as soon as I pointed out that the lampshades story is bullshit, someone came along saying that "We KNOW Mengele had human skin lampshades". Not just 'I thought Mengele did have human skin lampshades', "we KNOW...".
I know the term 'redpill' is a little cliche at this point, however... reality sometimes isn't what you think it is.
>>44214658
I don't disagree.
In fact it was only in the past five or so years that I educated myself about fascism, and precisely why I reject it. Most of the stuff I thought I knew was false, and what was true was either misrepresented or was incomplete.
>>44214773
That was pretty funny, tho. Exactly as predicted.
>>44214595
>Its not like they mention the lampshades in schools.
burger here, they beat the horrors of the holocaust into out heads in middle school, including the lampshades.
>>44214822
in Italy it's all about the oh so heroic partisans, when in reality they were violent brigands.
>>44213720
>>44213934
COMMU-PALADINS
They all act like they're characters from a propaganda film, and it's 100% authentic. They invoke the People's Will to smite things. Legions of chipper youths in plain uniforms calling each other 'comrade' and telling everyone that if they all pitch in and work hard the seemingly insurmountable problem will be fixed. Casting 'Detect Class Traitor' to find some cartoonishly evil landlord poisoning the town well or something.
It's glorious. Make it /tg/.
>>44213866
Man, game gear's graphics were so ahead of their time. If they didn't require 6 trillion AA batteries game gear would have been a real winner.
Fascism is lawful good
A humorous example of a decent fascist guy is in the Italian film "The fascist", "Il federale".
>>44213978
The German and Italian models were to flawed to ever be good in the long term. You could however show them as good in the short term (e.g. during a period of national crisis) or as having good intentions.
There are also lots of fascist regimes that were less awful than the ww2 belligerents to use as a model. >>44214084 is some alternative political models generally regarded as fascist.
An even better place to draw inspiration for your good facists is probably the various quasi-facist highly nationalistic, militaristic states found in East Asia until a couple of decades ago. Taiwan, South Korea and Indonesia are good places to look.
Even better still you could go to the Wikipedia page about definitions of fascism and take inspiration from some of the things people have written there.
>>44213630
Just play the tropes in this completely straight.
>>44214242
Rational, enlightened self-interest = fairness.
>>44217520
Rational self-interest = short term fairness at the expense of long term prosperity, growth, and progress.
>>44217564
Then it's not truly rational.
A group of truly rational actors would collaborate instead of suboptimize.
>>44214542
I like this idea and id like to add an emphasis on a very brutal punishment regime.
Crimes such as murder and rape are dealt with drawing, quartering and hanging amd the aforementioned gygax post.
Theft and lesser crimes result in loss of limbs or severe scarring.
Public indecency is dealt with by a large number of whippings. With most of these punishments in full display of the public.
Its important to note the paladins would want to hand out justice and would do a full investigation on these crimes. So people live know committing crimes results in swift and brutal punishments
>>44217740
Then they are not truly self-interested, since they are putting the group first; although this will lead to their own benefit, it will lead to less benefit than if they were entirely self-interested.
>>44213630
Friendly reminder that AD&D considered genocide a Good act, so long as you thought your targets were usually Evil.
Lawful Good is a totalitarian utopia.
Freedom is a Chaotic idea and not related to good or evil.
>>44213630
Gears of War.
![1401048375600[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/0lQPORo.jpg "1401048375600[1].jpg")
>>44213630
>Is it possible to play a good fascist?
>Premise Uno
Fascism =/= Nazism. Fascism, as practised in Italy and Spain, and argued for by the extreme right in France during the 1920s, is little more than arguing that a nation needs a strongman to lead it to glory. By its absolute widest definition De Gaulle could be considered a fascist (pro-tip: France to this very day has the Fasces as its coat of arms) but very few would call him downright evil. Americans may call him a cunt, but not evil.
>Premise Dos
Many Enlightenment thinkers, from Montesquieu to Franklin to Robespierre, argued that Republicanism can only exist for as long as virtue exist, and that the more corrupt a population grows the more they need a leader.
>Conclusion-o
A good fascist would be a strongman who takes the reigns in a corrupt and decadent society that's on the verge of collapse. An Augustus Caesar if you will.
>>44213720
yeah a "Lawful Good" state definitely counts as a "good fascist" state (since its laws are obeyed and it strives for social morality).
problem being taking the already difficult question of "what is a lawful good character" and applying it to a society.
>>44217984
>Americans may call him a cunt, but not evil.
>Implying Americans know who De Gaulle is
That was a funny joke. Next you'll inform me that Americans are aware of the Pied-Noirs and Algerian civil war.
On a more serious note: your definition of fascism is absolutely flawed. The qualities associated with fascist regimes have already been posted ITT (palingenetic ultranationalism, corporatism, left-right synthesis dialectics, post-War context of "total war," etc etc). It is not just a catch-all for the pejorative "guy I don't like" or for "generic authoritarianism."
PS It's debatable if Action Française, Solidarité française, Francisme etc were actually fascist since the ones that were paramilitaries didn't have political parties and the ones that were political parties weren't entirely fascist in the normal sense. Not that it really matters.
Would a militaristic, authoritarian, Lawful Good kingdom run by Paladins formed specifically as a buffer state against an incursion of demons count as fascism? IIRC Pathfinder has something like that going on.
>>44213897
>Fascism is not a utopian governmental system, as it is explicitly a nationalist, militaristic ideology that glorifies war as a useful and masculine thing to be pursued almost for its own sake.
I didn't know America was fascist.
>>44218291
The America that many conservatives aspire to is suspiciously fascist.
>>44217773
But if they value the idea of collaboration, unity, and altruism more than pursuing more 'selfish' goals and truly believe that this action will lead to the fufillment of their needs, then they are acting rationally within their own interests.
>>44214542
I would play the shit out of that setting.For the Emperor!
>>44214595
>It's not like they mention the lampshades in schools
Actually, 10 years ago, the American public school system did teach me that the nazis made lampshades of out of Jew skin. I never really bought it, but they definitely pushed it.
>>44214822
>>44218490
Another 'murican here, I have never even heard of this before
>>44218490
Canada reporting in
Lampshades, soap, and it was literally the worst thing that ever occurred in history. (Later on we learned about Rwanda. No other genocides or ethnic cleansings, though. Apparently fuck Greeks, Ukrainians, Armenians, Germans, Bosnians and Croats, etc)
>>44218490
I'm a Jew who went to a religious elementary school, and I don't remember being taught this.
>>44219112
The goyim are taught differently than G-d's chosen ones.
>>44218490
And the soap.
Did they have an old jew come to your school and try to shill his recounting of the holocaust for the low cost of $30?
>>44218490
25 years ago my school taught about the creative uses for the victims of the holocaust.
We also learned about the USSR one upping Nazi Germany in terms of atrocity.
Also, Du Gaulle was, IMHO, Lawful Neutral, willing to do great evil for the structure he supported, but neither sadistic nor immune to reason.
>>44213630
Fascism boils down to cultural unity at all costs, which isn't a "bad idea" so much as one that gets badly implemented in the real world; it has roots in tribal thought which is gradually becoming obsolete as communications makes the real world "smaller". But it makes sense in a world where Orcs rampage across the plains, where Evil is a literal elemental force, where it's possible for someone's racial and cultural heritage to have real measurable effects on their moral standing - in that world it kind of makes sense that you would want to put up a fence that says "no elves allowed".
>>44213630
The Spitalians from Degenesis are the closest I can think of.
>>44217740
Depends on how much you discount the future.
>>44219330
just sounds very, very strong Law aligned.
Though the "at all costs" bit does make it very hard to not implement in a manner less than Evil.
>>44220364
>You're killing the discussion by interjecting pointless autistic comments every post. I have yet to see you contribute anything meaningful.
Says the faggot killing the discussion by interjecting meaningless, autistic comments every post. I have yet to see you contribute anything beyond "lol dem Nazis guize" and "gb2 /pol/!!1!"
>some anon disagreeing with the frankly preposterous narrative of human lampshades is "being an edgelord"
I'm not even a natsoc, in fact I despise the Nazis, but you're just being an absolute faggot.
>>44213630
Then what do you mean by fascist? In my book the only real fascists are the followers of Benito Mussolini in Italy. Many of those people were pretty much alright. I'm not uncritical towards Mussolini's regime, they did rely on thuggery and physical force too much for my tastes and the way they sold out to Germany (and sold their Jews out to Germany specifically) later on was nothing short of shameful though done for understandable reasons. But it was one of the mildest dictatorships in 20th century history, and arguably preferable to the available alternatives (a dysfunctional, corrupt democracy, a mundane military dictatorship or a communist takeover). They had political prisoners but those lived in comfort unseen since... well, Imperial Russia I guess. Many opposition figures were more or less left alone after a while. There was no Soviet or Nazi-style repression in the arts and sciences. And in the meantime they took on construction projects and crime-fighting in a way that no one else in Italy could have. One can be a fascist - someone working for this state, or even an ardent supporter of the movement in its violent outset - and not be evil, simply by not engaging in any of the evils that accompanied it, by recognising them for what they were, and sticking to the good in it. Let's not forget that Mussolini himself took exception to many early excesses. Though he, I'd say, was more chaotic neutral than anything.
There was this Jewish Admiral in Italy that they eventually gave over to the Nazis, like all the other Jews, in hopes of appeasing those psychos they were stuck in a cage with. Even then he remained loyal to Mussolini and to Italy, recognising it to be a necessary sacrifice to protect his country. He was mistaken, but I'd say he was a Good Fascist.
(If you want to bring Nazis into it there was also that ambassador guy in China who helped people survive the Rape of Nanking though. But being a Good Nazi is much harder than a Good Fascist.)
>>44213978
"Far right" is unfortunately a meaningless term since it puts American libertarians, Russian Eurasians and European ultranationalists in the same group.
State control over means of production... well, there's a lot to discuss in terms of what the economic model in both Germany and Italy actually was, but anyway, that's not inherently evil.
Democracy-schmemocracy. If we're talking DnD not a lot of groups had that either.
Ultra-nationalism... nah, I'd say in Italy it was plain old nationalism and in Germany the ideal was racial rather than national.
The trouble with removing undesirables, since it is the gist of your approach, is that Italy, unlike Russia and Germany, never really did it. Not en masse. Not systematically. Not any more than... any regular dictatorship in the world today. The closest they came was turning over the Jews, but that was on the Germans' persistent requests that they were too scared to say no to.
So a Fantasy Fascist Italy wouldn't do any of that. It WOULD fight vampires pretty vigorously and well as an equivalent of fighting the Mafia though.
>>44220420
I'm not defending the fucking lampshades myth, next to no one defends the lampshades myth.
However, there is a problem when someone looks a society that systematically exterminated millions of people and committed countless atrocities that scarred Western Civilization to such an extent that they are still cited as justification for modern foreign policies and says to themselves; "Well, this society didn't turn people into LAMPSHADES, so they must not be all THAT bad."
Then it becomes annoying when this person then makes ignorant claims based solely on trying to be "edgy".
>>44220623
I think you're fighting a strawman there, chap. Anti-Nazi myth-making isn't a good thing (for one thing, like with all small lies attached to a grand truth, when someone inevitably discovers it one becomes more inclined to doubt the truth as well, and more positively inclined towards whoever uncovered it, which would often by the modern Nazi wannabes). Fighting it does not mean endorsing the Nazis. It means sticking up for the historical truth, which is to everyone's benefit in the long-run.
To get this shit back on track, I am going to dump some links to fascist and quasi-fascist movements for possible inspiration for OP. I already mentioned most of them ITT but here's slightly more detail. I'm also going to partially disregard the Lawful Good requirement but I'm sure you can figure something out.
Brazil
>Brazilian Integralist Movement
Clerical mass movement, non-racist, nationalist and far-right revolutionary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Integralism
>Why it's relevant
Because these guys show you how plebs can center themselves around a corporatist authoritarian government involving the church. In fantasy settings you could have something like "a union of the people of the realm under the Church of [patron god]" and if that god is LG then you're good to go.
Singapore
>People's Action Party
Branded "centre-right" but this is a misnomer. Rejects liberal democracy. Supposedly anti-racist but that's debatable; very anti-Islam, very nationalist. Had one dictatorial-style leader since forever, but he died recently. State control of resources, corporatism, extreme authoritarianism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Action_Party
>Why it's relevant
In a fantasy setting you could have a quasi-fascist union of traders, guildmasters and clerics leading a small state which is outwardly nationalist due to its need to fight for survival.
1/2(?)
>>44220623
Yes, the Nazis were a horrible regime and noone is saying otherwise (besides legit stormfags), but this does not imply that EVERYTHING to do with them is automatically pure evil and untouchable.
I guess rockets should be immediately done away with because the Nazis developed them, or that applying whatever relevant economics the Nazis practiced to applicable situations (sans the genocide, of course) is also a big no-no.
Picking and choosing bits and pieces because "hey, these might be useful" doesn't imply that the entire ideology must be adopted.
>>44220741
2/(actually it's 3)
France
>Many far-right quasi-fascist movements. The Croix-de-Feu is one example, the Action française another.
Ranged from clerical to monarchist, nationalist to national syndicalist. Some of these movements were b& after WW2 for collaboration with the Nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Fran%C3%A7aise
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croix-de-Feu
>Why they're relevant
Show one example of how to integrate a monarchy into the general setup of fascism, while also keeping the church. Obviously applicable to a fantasy setting. You could say that after a major war, an enemy power installed members of a nationalist/independence movement who wishes to promote the monarchy and so co-operated with the other power. Your heroes could be fighting against this "corrupt regime" or helping them to "restore the monarchy and church to their rightful place so we can remove the invaders."
Also France
>Sorelianism
An ideology, not a party. Advocated violence as the center and source of "creativity" and national rebirth as opposed to bourgeoisie stagnation. (Note for the uneducated: fascism uses many terms lifted from the left-wing movements it originated in. It is entirely normal to see fascists argue about bourgeoisie.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorelianism
>Why it's relevant
You could have a cult or army of peasants who worship a god or pair of gods who represent anarchy, chaos, creativity and change. They successfully removed the old nobility and put in place a new theocracy with fascist trappings.
>>44220741
Not going to lie, Singapore looks pretty interesting. It's pretty much the definition of a benevolent dictatorial city-state, right?
>>44220764
3/3
Romania
>Iron Guard/Legion of the Archangel Michael
I saved the best for last, so far as fantasy inspo goes. These guys were 40k-tier hardcore. They believed that the "national rebirth" of fascism had to be religious in nature. They had death squads who basically committed suicide runs on the promise that it would get them into heaven. If I recall correctly they took over the monarchy but eventually the king purged them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard
>Why it's relevant
Imagine penitent cultists surging to prominence on a wave of death and destruction (of evil heretics, of course) and forcing the king to act in the name of their Lawful Good god of choice. Authoritarianism for the greatest good. Death squads of hardcore paladins.
>>44220778
I guess you could look at it that way. They did massively improve the economy.
On the other hand they have huge slums filled with undesirables/foreigners and pretty much execute you if they find you with a tiny bag of weed, which seems a bit excessive to me.
>>44220910
>On the other hand they have huge slums filled with undesirables/foreigners
Every 1st world nation has huge slums filled with undesirables and foreigners, anon.
> and pretty much execute you if they find you with a tiny bag of weed, which seems a bit excessive to me.
Really? I thought that was only for cocaine. In any case, I'm not a druggy and anyone who is in a place with laws like that (which I assume are very publicly known) is just asking for it.
Do you know what the censorship laws are like there? I know they have a list of 100 officially banned websites, but I have yet to find a complete list.
![379796-kyubey_super[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Fkyh7WS.jpg "379796-kyubey_super[1].jpg")
>>44213630
>Is it possible to play a good fascist?
You'd have to be in a seriously fucked up world for "the ends justify the means" to be a viable principle.
Like, heat death of the universe, everyone dies unless you sacrifice SOMEBODY.
>>44220949
I might be wrong about the weed. I do recall thinking they had very harsh drug laws in relation to marijuana, though. As you said, cocaine is execution tier for sure.
The point about the slums was that they're particularly bad, but that is likely a function of their small territory. Any packed slum is worse than a spread out one...
I am not completely aware of the censorship laws but I do recall that Freedom House classifies them as only Partially Free or w/e, for what that's worth. I just googled "censorship in singapore" and it looks like there's a shit ton of information available on wiki and other sites.
>>44220949
>Every 1st world nation has huge slums filled with undesirables and foreigners, anon.
Depends on what you do with them that makes a slum hyperbole or stark reality.
>Really? I thought that was only for cocaine. In any case, I'm not a druggy and anyone who is in a place with laws like that (which I assume are very publicly known) is just asking for it.
Pretty much all of SEA is zero tolerance. Currently, they throw the book at you if you bring in recreational amounts. If they check your car or house and find drugs, that means you have possess them. If you bring in large quantities, you can have the death penalty and the burden of proof is on the you to prove you're not trafficking.
As per Schedule 2 of the Act, the death penalty may be prescribed if you are convicted of possessing any of the following:
Heroin - 15 grams or more
Cocaine - 30 grams or more
Morphine - 30 grams or more
Hashish - 200 grams or more
Methamphetamine - 250 grams or more
Cannabis - 500 grams or more
Opium - 1,200 grams or more
>Do you know what the censorship laws are like there? I know they have a list of 100 officially banned websites, but I have yet to find a complete list.
When you get to the point where there's 100 officially banned websites, you've got enough evidence. Singapore censors out of embarrassment and to "preserve balance in a multicultural nation." It's MPAA movie ratings plus antihooligan laws with teeth, including for online behvior. Vetting is common practice.
>>44221325
>When you get to the point where there's 100 officially banned websites, you've got enough evidence. Singapore censors out of embarrassment and to "preserve balance in a multicultural nation."
Fair enough; it's most just porn streaming sites, right?
>It's MPAA movie ratings plus antihooligan laws with teeth, including for online behvior. Vetting is common practice.
So they pretty much scour through your internet history to see if you're too much of a degenerate for a job. Would I get the book thrown at me for shitposting on 4chan and going on /s/?
>>44213630
>is it possible to play someone who believes in a strong central government that has supreme authority in the mundane life as a good person
... Why would it not be?
Are you making the retarded assumption all fascists are 'lmao exterminate all other races'?
>>44221386
>So they pretty much scour through your internet history to see if you're too much of a degenerate for a job.
Everything I've heard is that it's the other way around. It's the content you put up that they care about. If you shitpost, they can litigate. Offending content on blogs may be taken down on request. I don't know about pornography, but the 100 banned websites list is symbolic. I would imagine that porn sites that don't matter to them aren't a big deal, or that they have to ban them by name. /s/ probably won't be a big deal unless it achieves "Ashley Madison" or "Playboy website" status.
Like I said, MPAA with teeth.
>Starting 1 June 2013 the Media Development Authority requires sites "that report regularly on issues relating to Singapore and have significant reach" among website visitors in Singapore to apply for individual licenses, which will be subject to annual renewal.
The way I'm thinking was not necessarily 'can fascism be good?' as I'm ill equipped to answer that but more 'can a person who believes in/serves fascism be good?' John Rabe, a member of the Nazi Party helped save numerous people during the Rape of Nanking, and I'm thinking it could also apply people innocent to some of the possible crimes committed by the system. One of the common tactics of the National Socialists to drum up support among the electoral base was to go around and do pro-bono odd jobs for the populace, fixing roofs and such, so someone whose experience of fascism was limited to that rather than some of their darker actions could probably pass.
>>44221505
That actually doesn't sound too bad, to be honest.
I'm guessing they only care what you post or talk about when it directly relates to Singapore, or is on a Singaporean website?
>>44221556
They nannynag you hard. Disruptive behavior and racism gets them going fast. Singapore is home to a lot of ethnic groups, so any comment that could be cast as helping sharpen blades, inflame attitudes, would likely be super bad for your legal health.
>or is on a Singaporean website?
No idea if it's domestic only. desu, if it's foreign and sees mainstream Singaporean usage, I wouldn't be surprised if they were watching. Facebook would be a no-brainer.
So no, it's not North Korea bad, but it's pretty far along, and if you like your civil liberties, it's a moderate curtailment.
>>44221651
>desu
... How'd that get there?
>>44221651
Well that's unfortunate; Singapore does sounds pretty good overall, but I do like my freedom of speech.
>>44221666
filters
t.bh desu
s.mh baka
f.am senpai
c.uck cuck
>>44221690
>mfw they took the cuck filter off all boards
Well I'll be damned.
>>44220778
a lot of east asian democracies started out as 'benevolent' dictatorships. Both South Korea and Taiwan didn't start becoming genuinely democratic until the late 1980s.
>>44214085
>would all work if everyone was just 'not a dick'.
Dicks are not the problem with anything you just mentioned, the issue is that people just want different things and so somebody is probably not going to get what they want. There's also limits to how much of any given thing exists to go around
If two people want to paint a wall and one wants Red while the other wants Blue somebody can't get what they want and a compromise of Violet means neither gets what they want. If two people want to paint two different walls Red but there's only enough paint for one of the walls someone is going home unsatisfied.
>>44214822
Starrystripman here, never heard shit about this. Actually I don't think we covered any Nazi not named Hitler.
so guys, I actually did a worldbuilding with others back in the past, and just remebered to bring up a faction in it. should I
>>44218291
You didn't?
>>44214822
>>44218562
>>44223385
Might depend on where you went to school.
New England here, we got human skin lampshades from 4th grade through high school
>>44214203
Why is one of them killing the men and the other reassuring them? They seem to be on the same side, the soldiers I mean.
>>44213630
1) Define Fascism
2) Define Good
Then we can work towards something. 'Til then, where's the image of a guy explaining a pointless argument starter?
>>44213630
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: "Good" in D&D is almost always nearly completely undefined and instead relies on GM interpretation to answer questions like this. "Good" might be Kantian or utilitarian but most frequently, because D&D is a game for manchildren, it is vague Judeo-Christian deontology that runs the universe.
Best answer: stop playing D&D before it completely rots your brain and cripples your ability to play forever.
>>44223791
We pretty much already established that in D&Dish terms there's nothing inappropriate about good fascists. A Lawful Good fascist society would be very different than a Lawful Good classical liberal society.
>>44213978
>Far right
>state controls the means of production
;}
Nazi literally means National Socialist. They were neither left nor right wing, they were authority wing. The only way you could say that Germany was right wing was that it was motivated out of an aversion to what it saw as disgusting rather than what it saw as difficult. Mussollini is pretty left wing.
>>44213720
>So the only shortcoming is human corruptability.
No. That is part of the problem, but there are many more, such as simple human incompetence.
>>44223874
What would it look like when a LG fascist society meets a LG classical neoliberal society?
>>44223914
like a dead neoliberal society
>>44223914
I 100% maintain that good societies and people can conflict, they'll just do it in a relatively honorable, measured fashion, ie more stringent than the LN-at-best Geneva Convention (which allows you to kill as many civilians as you please, so long as your bombs are primarily lobbed at military or manufacturing targets). If neither society conducts commerce with the other and they both have an authentic claim to resource xyz they may go to war about it.
>>44223914
>>44223941
Also, I was reading over this too fast. WTF is a "classical neoliberal?"
>>44214085
Democracy works if people are intelligent and cooperative. If they are unintelligent but cooperative they fall en-masse for meaningless jingles and catchphrases; I'm looking at both the current and incumbent president of the United States when I say this. If they are smart but uncooperative you get corruption and cartel hell, with a few quazi-monarchies ruling the roost. Hereditary dynasties are go. "Being a dick" covers uncooperation but it can also be used to mean someone who's stubborn or uncompromising, but those are neutral qualities needed in some proportion to maintain law and order.
Communism cannot be implemented by the kind of bug-eyed students that advocate their own untested "version" of it, and it cannot be implemented in a population with a certain degree of wealth, freedom and leisure. It takes a peasant or serf population and a group of well-supplied and ruthless revolutionaries to overthrow whatever currently dominates them and install Communism in it's place. This is the inherent factor that makes questions of dickishness irrelevant. Communism ends up ruling such populations identically to how they were ruled before, except with MUCH more executions and exilings in it's formative years.
Anarchy does not exist. Human beings will always function in an orderly way and will work or impose order on each other. You can remove the existing developed orders of society, which only causes the LCD of all order, might makes right, to resurge. It would take the violent enforcement of another group to break this up and prevent this from happening, and I'm sure you can see the irony.
>>44223921
Lower your murderboner. I don't think that's going to always be the case.
Let's say some recent but thriving settlement of dorfs are living a peaceful life under some mountains and tunnel out through a part they hadn't explored before because manifest dwarfstiney and encounter some LG fascist elves fighting some CN human raiders. The raiders don't really give a shit about any ideological bent, the elves are weary, etc etc
The circumstances that would drive a society to become fascist in the first place would be a harsh environment with a perceived alien threat, regardless of whether it's believed to be internal or external. If they encounter possible allies, it could end up with something other than extermination, but rather loosening of restrictions after warfare.
>>44223962
Seems you're a bit too hard on democracy. The idea of "intelligent" or "unintelligent" flat out doesn't apply to democracies, or representative republics period, since all populations are going to have a relative intelligence distribution curve.
Lets just call em representative republics, unless we're really talking about just plain democracies. You are SOL in a representative republic if there's no one suitable to represent you. Intelligence level doesn't figure into it there either.
As the amount of people necessary to vote someone in render intelligence distribution a meaningless issue, the issue of "stupid voters" are probably better described as masochistic voters.
When you have radically different populations with radically different interests, values, etc. etc., then stupidity per se doesn't necessarily figure into it too much, nor does dickishness per se -- just plain not everyone's interests will be able to be represented.
You do in fact have cases where leaders flat out misrepresent whose interests they will be supporting, but its fair to say most candidates are pretty obvious about which segments of the population they do and don't care about (ie. Romney's 47%).
>>44223948
I made a typo and autocorrect fucked it up. Because the question was asked, I'm imagining a classical neoliberal to be someone who is into privatizing government services while engaging in pederasty, preferably involving marble columns.
>>44214609
Yeah, but those medical crimes were useful.
>>44224072
I was going to argue this, but it looks like modern treatment protocols for frostbite are derived from nip experiments.
>mfw
>>44215692
My next character.
>>44213630
Yes, but you're REQUIRED to play Lawful.
Your modus operandi is enforcing Good on your people, and banning Evil.
>>44213978
Which Auschwitz?
Nazi!Auschwitz, the prison camp for people who posed a revolt risk, which suffered from starvation and typhus?
Or Jewish!Auschwitz, an intentional death camp for innocent victims, who were gassed or cooked alive?
Also does anyone know which one is IRL canon? I can't find word of god on the issue, just Jews shilling Jewish!Auschwitz and Nazis shilling Nazi!Auschwitz.
>>44224259
>>44215692
>be paladin of the proletariat
>channel faith through paperwork
>successfully detected bourgeoisie
>must now submit twenty pages of request permission to smite forms in octuplicate
>comrade, you've submitted 11-17g which is for ghouls but your description clearly specifies vampires
>have to fill out eight copies of 11-17v plus requests to replace previous filings
>by time you finish vampire will get away
>yfw must either break law or let bourgeoisie go unsmited
Op.
Good fascism is nearly indistinguishable from retarded hardliner liberalism.
Just do things like censor speech or activities you consider 'hateful' but really mean "disagrees with me", bully opponents you cant outright eliminate until the public eye is elsewhere with your financial, diplomatic and media connections. If you ever need justification twist whatever scenario it is to the current viewpoint so that the "peoples voice" is what you want it to be. Always take the "burden" of leadership and Finally when called for commit violence with a stonefaced declaration of "defending our livelihood" or "self defense" or "security" and you are good to go.
Also readers by people like Roger Griffin or Neil Gregor are filled with short snippets from the main sources you can memorize/ sprout out when needed. Most the time people will think you are some kind of insightful prophet of good government. I once used a campaign to practice for an exam by having a character bring up the major talking points about fascismo
>>44214595
English here, they only ever told us that the Nazis made soap from the dead Jews' bodies, and that was in Chemistry because our teacher was telling us about the chemical they used and why you shouldn't get it on your hands.
>>44223744
Horse shit, I'm from Maine, there was no human skin lampshade stuff.
>>44219828
>Implying the ends don't justify the means.
Race Traitor
Ctrl f doom
I'm shocked teegee.
>>44214390
Another anon beat me to it but the lampshade remark was proven to be ludicrously false very swiftly after it was made, and Mengele had nothing to do with it.
>>44213630
First answer if it is possible to play a good Capitalist.
No.
>>44213752
>without mercy or compassion
Hmm, what would lawful neutral be then ? Beccarian constant but more reserved punishment ? Seems conterintuitive.
>>44225411
Yes, the voluntary exchange of goods and services for money or other goods/services is so evil.
We must ban the people from conducting free enterprise for their own good comrade. And execute those dirty kulaks for daring to have more goats than their neighbours.
>>44224042
>Seems you're a bit too hard on democracy.
Are you for real? I'm being extraordinarily leniant on democracy. I'm admitting that democracy has the best potential of any system we have. If acknowledging democracy's two limitations - it requires brains and cooperation/a high trust population - is "hard" on it, I hate to think what you'd qualify of a hard assessment of monarchy or despotism.
>The idea of "intelligent" or "unintelligent" flat out doesn't apply to democracies
Now you are off-base. EVERYTHING relates to intelligence, but especially the overall of the group. I could link you to a whole bunch of sites, but a guy published a very good book I'm getting for my relatives for Christmas that covers all of it:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804785961/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=
Let me say it very clearly one more time: intelligence, and especially group intelligence, matter probably more than any other factor that determines its shape, organisation, structure and ultimately success and longevity. Even open-mindedness, high standards and cooperation take a back seat.
>>44223808
Their "mercy" is a quick death maybe? Maybe she reassures them before stabbing them in the neck? I don't know, just guessing a possibility.
>>44225851
>A group of warrior clerics sworn to acts of mercy. Mercy could be either healing the wounded, or beheading those who do evil.
>>44213720
Human corruptibility *and* lack of foresight.
Because you don't know when that drought is going to cut off your grain supply at the knees.
>>44214542
10/10, would purge Elves with.
>>44226284
Interesting definition of "mercy" you got going there. Generally, mercy involves forgiveness and true opportunities for (true) redemption.
But then there's "mercy killing," I suppose.
>>44227970
Blame Amplitude
>>44225851
I'd say their mercy is a quick and painless death over a slow and agonizing one.
>>44225618
You can either be a Good Capitalist or be Good at being a Capitalist, but not both Anon.
>>44232330
Sounds like you're comflating Capitalism with Corporatism.
>>44232967
With just cause. Without the protection of the corporate liability shield, the risk of investing is too high and capitalism wouldn't exist. We'd be mercantilist at best.
>>44233070
You can't confuse anyting by just cause, that goes against the word's meaning.
>the risk of investing is too high
This is the thinking that kills capitalism.
>>44224196
I'm pretty sure the Germans did a lot of "research" into hypothermia and frostbite too during WWII.
>>44225462
Lawful with some selfish ambitions for wealth and power?
