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Here's a question:

Why does WHFRP2 split up each Arcane and Divine Lore into three lores when it adds more spells in Realms of Sorcery and Tome of Salvation, if you still have to pick spells individually anyway?

Why not just let you pick freely from the associated spells?

For example, if you are an Amber Wizard, Lore of Beasts, you cannot take The Beast Broken, The Beast Made Well, and The Beast Unleashed, because there are three spell lists, Elemental, Mystical, and Cardinal, and none includes all three.

It seems like a very odd restriction to me. Realms of Sorcery says "With more spells per lore, the rules from the WFRP core rulebook need some revision lest Wizards gain more power without cost."

But you still have to pay experience to pick any spells whatsoever, so it's very, very odd to me. Both narratively (it seems very artificial - why would this restriction exist?) and mechanically (what's the point?). Or am I just missing something?

Reminder if your book doesn't properly list how to advance from a career you're using an outdated version

>>44208818
>Reminder if your book doesn't properly list how to advance from a career you're using an outdated version

Reminder that this includes the final publication by FFG, as odd as that sounds.

>>44208210
Highlights from the last thread: if your character can do something other people don't know how to do then you're not playing a real roleplaying game.

>>44208779
Wizard colleges teach 3 fixed spell lists for the sake of scheduling. Or more likely each college only has 3 instructors at a time.

>>44208707
>how can you die from falling off a horse?
You attempted a daring manoeuvre and failed, or something attacked you trying to knock you off your mount. It's reasonable enough to impose a little damage in cases like that. I've died from falling-of-horse damage before (admittedly in King Arthur Pendragon, a game with specific rules for that)

>how do you end up choking on a pie without choking your GM?
This is more baffling. I'd want some hint of a clue that this pie might be dangerous before this happens, or I'm done with your games forever.

>>44208888
>Highlights from the last thread: if your character can do something other people don't know how to do then you're not playing a real roleplaying game.
>I shitpost strawmen because I have nothing else to do with my life.

It's almost like you should kill yourself.

>>44208902
>Wizard colleges teach 3 fixed spell lists for the sake of scheduling. Or more likely each college only has 3 instructors at a time.

As much as that cooouuuld explain it, I guess, it just doesn't feel very likely, and seems very much like a post-hoc justification, which is shit.

Besides, afaik, you don't need to be at the college to learn magic, technically.

>>44209011
Paraphrasing isn't strawmanning anon.

As for the spell list thing, it absolutely is a post-hoc justification, but what are you going to do.

The reason it turned out this way, I suspect, is that when they added new spells in the sorcery book they obviously couldn't just give every wizard all the spells for free like they'd done to that point, so they had to come up with new fixed spell list to ensure everyone had a good mix of simple and advanced spells and you couldn't game the system based on the campaign's predicted duration. You can still buy spells you feel you're missing with the extra spell talent, can't you? (don't have my books to hand, I may be wrong)

>>44209079
>Paraphrasing isn't strawmanning anon.
When you make shit up, yeah, it is.

>You can still buy spells you feel you're missing with the extra spell talent, can't you? (don't have my books to hand, I may be wrong)

You're right, I had just read the Extra Spell Talent wrong. Extra Spell Talent is specifically used to grab extra spells, so I guess it all makes sense after all.

>>44208779
You don't have to pick spells individually.

You get the Petty Magic talent (Arcane, Divine, or Hedge) which gives you a handful of spells for 100XP.

Then you get access to Lesser Magics, each of which must be purchased, one by one, for 100 XP (until you have enough to complete the scheme). They are stated to be learned by rote memorization.

Then you gain access to your Lore, which gives you all the specialty spells for your school/god, for 100XP (and also access to a lore skill, for 100XP extra). As it takes a while to get to the Lore spells (Journeyman Wizard or Anointed Priest), I always fluff it (as is implied in the books) that you've finally finished aligning your soul to the Aethyr/your god, and you are ready to act as a channel (which effects you physically, mentally, and emotionally) rather than forcing unaligned magic through you by sheer willpower.

So your progression goes
>Lots of tiny spells, as you get your magical sea legs
>A couple lesser spells, learned at great effort, as you wrap your mind around how to actually use magic effectively
>A bunch of lore spells, as you finish tuning your body and are ready to be a proper conduit

Dividing it into the Elemental, Mystical and Cardinal are just a metagame balancing, to keep wizards from gaining a crapload of spells at the end, which would give them a ton of flexibility, but it exists in-universe as part of the fine-tuning you do to embrace your Wind.

>>44208779
For me the magic system in WFRP is its weakest part, the emphasis on splitting the spells up to colours is taken to far.

I'd have one main Lore, with certain lores giving bonuses to spells. Properly trained wizards would be less likely to miscast and go insane but if you've not go the training to focus on one lore only you go bug fuck insane or miscast very easily, especially if you cast higher level spells.

Meanwhile Chaos sorcerers don't give no fucks and cast what they want at the cost of mind and mutation

Has there ever been stats for the elven schools of magic?

Putting together an elf for a game and trying to do something other than 'Archer Mc Archerson'.

>>44210971
Give them access to 6 spells from any Lore at each level.

Study various Grimoires at 100xp for 1d10+[casting number] days to learn any extra ones.

>>44211026

Is that official from somewhere or just houserules?

I'm not the GM of the game.

>>44211047
I just pulled it out of my arse

>>44211069

Alright. I'll have to talk to the GM then.

I'm not making a Dark Elf but TT Wood Elves have access to both High Elf and Dark Elf magic.

Failing that, do you think the Lore of Life or Lore of Beasts human mage classes would work alright for a Wood Elf mage?

>>44210739
But that's totally wrong for the setting, going against the explicit rules of magic. You're just describing how schools of magic worked in D&D.

>Properly trained wizards would be less likely to miscast and go insane but if you've not go the training to focus on one lore only you go bug fuck insane or miscast very easily, especially if you cast higher level spells.

Except this bit, that's what divides College wizards from Hedge mages, and it already part of the rules.

>>44211100
>>44210971
The rules for elf magic is 'don't be a little bitch, use the Winds as written.'

Elves study magic as humans do in the beginning, then they go learn High Magic back in Uluthan, at which point the game says, 'you're too powerful to continue in this system, make a new character.'

Beasts or Life would be fine lores for a Wood Elf starting to earn magic. Also, pretty sure Wood Elves don't learn Dark Elf magic, as that is worshiping Khaine and some other nasty shit.

>>44212021
The rules are currently solely for the use of human colour mages, theres no decent provision for hedge mages, elf mages, foreign mages, chaos mages, other species, alchemy or general quackery, its all about the various schools of magic and its poorly written.

>>44212108

>Beasts or Life would be fine lores for a Wood Elf starting to earn magic. Also, pretty sure Wood Elves don't learn Dark Elf magic, as that is worshiping Khaine and some other nasty shit.

Latest army book scrapped them having a unique lore and just gave them high elf + dark elf.

>>44212108

Cool. Does Life have any offensive spells in the RPG? (I know the TT has some terrifyingly powerful life spells)

Or is it mostly healing/support?

>>44212153
>The rules are currently solely for the use of human colour mages, theres no decent provision for hedge mages, elf mages, foreign mages, chaos mages, other species, alchemy or general quackery, its all about the various schools of magic and its poorly written.

I disagree, if we're counting supplements. There's plenty of stuff for hedge mages, chaos mages and *some* foreign mages (Kislev and dwarven runecrafting comes to mind).

However, alchemy and elven magic is severely lacking. Elves are supposed to at least be able to learn multiple winds, and there's no support for that, as far as I have seen so far, and there's flat-out no meaningful alchemy, especially as a potential school of magic.

>>44212265
Go read the core book and Realms of Sorcery. Short answer yes to both questions.

>>44212429
>Elves are supposed to at least be able to learn multiple winds, and there's no support for that

Again, that's an explicitly stated design decision. By the time an elf gets to that level, they are told to exit stage right; the game is no longer capable of handling that level of power, and they would rather you leave instead of breaking the system in half trying to accommodate you.

> there's flat-out no meaningful alchemy, especially as a potential school of magic.

False. There's rules in Realms of Sorcery for creating familiars, potions and magic items aplenty.

>>44212265
>Does Life have any offensive spells in the RPG?

Curse of Thorns: "You cause thorns to grow inside the body of one character with 36 yards (18 squares), wracking him with excruciating pain. On each of the target’s next 1d10 turns, he must make a successful Will Power Test or lose 1 Wound (regardless of Toughness Bonus or armour) and suffer a –20% penalty on all tests for one round."

Father of Thorns: "You cause thorns and briars to burst from naked earth within 48 yards (24 squares). Use the large template. Anyone affected has their Move reduced by half while they remain in the affected area, and anyone
who tries to move suffers a Damage 4 hit. The thorns and briars retreat back into the ground after a number of minutes equal to your Magic Characteristic."

Geyser: "You cause a geyser of water to shoot up from an area of natural earth within 24 yards (12 squares). Use the small template. Those affected take a Damage 4 hit and are knocked 4 yards (2 squares) in the direction of your choice by the erupting water. They must make a Toughness Test or be stunned for 1d10 rounds. They are knocked down regardless. After the initial burst, a pool forms in the area of the template, providing fresh water for the next hour."

I'm not sure if any of them qualifies as terrifyingly powerful, but I must say that the first one sounds absolutely horrifying.

>>44212572

Well, those are horrifying and appropriately WElfly.

I'm debating Beast and Life.

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People interesting spiritual successors may wish to check out Shadow of the Demon Lord, by Robert Schwalb. He worked heavily on both Warhammer Fantasy RPG, and also on DnD4e and 5e, and the influence shows.

For my money I consider it a superior game to DnD5e, while still having a very Warhammery 'feel'.
http://www4.zippyshare.com/v/PXalKqpm/file.html

>>44212429
My main issue is that colour magic is treated as default by the rules, rather than building on a solid framework that can be used impartially and then expanded to represent the colleges.

Realms of Sorcery is also a dire book, it covers a few things but just barely. Only good part was the adventure

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>>44212622
Is this a shill? You turned up last thread too, with a perfectly set-up response that let you launch into a pitch.

>>44212649
I haven't actually paid any money for the game yet, since I'm yet to play it (and that's a requirement for me paying for the work).

As for the set-up... wasn't me. Person was just interested, I guess?

>>44212648
Yeah, the colours of magic are treated as default, because they are the default.

By default, you're going to be playing a mage belonging to the Colleges of the Empire, as fits the theme of WFRP (playing small people within the Empire). If you insist on not being a college mage (exposing you to the danger of Witch Hunters and the general population, not to mention Chaos) you can do so using the Hedge Mage careers in the sourcebooks, or using the Dark Magic if you want to stay core. If you choose to go to Kislev, there's rules for being one of their mages. If you want to be an elf mage, you get told that you can't be the fancy high-power mage, because that doesn't fit the game's theme and scope; you can have pointy ears and spells, so long as you accept the limitations.

I don't even understand what your complaint is about.

>>44212785
>By default, you're going to be playing a mage belonging to the Colleges of the Empire, as fits the theme of WFRP (playing small people within the Empire)


I would argue hedge mages or self taught mages fit that bill better

>>44212648
>My main issue is that colour magic is treated as default by the rules
It's also default that you are playing in the old world and not in Lustria or anywhere else.
This game is mainly for the purpose of playing imperial characters.

>>44212833
Hedge Wizard is a class in the core book. The assumption there is that either you kill yourself, you stop practising magic and pray to the gods that no one finds out about your witchery, or you join the Colleges. There's plenty of charlatans around, but free and undiscovered hedge mages practicing magic on their own are a rarity, because it's incredibly dangerous.

There's not a lot of powerful self-taught mages, because they typically either blow themselves up, fall to Chaos, and/or are exterminated by the Colleges and Witch Hunters specifically looking for them. However, if you want to try and go down that road, there Realms of Sorcery. Still not seeing your problem.

How would you handle a Hedge Wizard going into Apprentice Wizard?

Someone that starts as Apprentice Wizard is "easy". You are at the end of your studies to become a Journeyman Wizard, at which point you are no longer bound to a Master, and don't have to stay at the College. You're essentially "free".

But what of someone that becomes an Apprentice Wizard? It's supposed to entail years of menial labour and study, which is obviously not really in line with being an adventurer or someone that goes and does weird shit with his friends or acquaintances for fun and profit, or just to stay alive.

There's another couple of careers like that, like Initiate, but playing at just becoming a Apprentice Wizard feels a bit weird, honestly. Not sure how to pitch it.

>>44212929
>The assumption there is that either you kill yourself, you stop practising magic and pray to the gods that no one finds out about your witchery, or you join the Colleges.

The way it's described in Realms of Sorcery, you basically pray that if you're found out, you're found out by a sanctioned wizard, because they have a mandate to actually drag you to the college.

If a witch hunter or other authority figure finds you first, you bet that you're going to fucking burn. Hell, it must be hard to earn a living as a hedge wizard anyway, so I'm surprised ANYONE stays a hedge wizard, considering that people are going to throw rocks at you if they discover you, at the very least.

>>44213063
>it must be hard to earn a living as a hedge wizard anyway, so I'm surprised ANYONE stays a hedge wizard

That's why I like the Hedge Wizard career in Core: Your exits are Apprentice Wizard, Charlatan, Initiate, Outlaw, Vagabond.

Basically you either join a church, you join a college, you get real good at lying to people and disguising your magical talent, or you are on the run from Johann Law.

>>44213118
I agree completely. Coming from WH40kRP, I was initially deeply skeptical of the career system in WHFRP (because it never really worked well in WH40kRP), but it's actually really, really well-crafted, with very thematic Entries and Exits.

Someone bitched about players cherry-picking careers that will benefit them, comparing it to cherry-picking in a classless system, but in WHFRP, they actually have to roleplay their careers accordingly, so if they want to cherry-pick, they end up being one of those people that's been through the weirdest of lives.

Which makes for a great narrative, honestly, either way, as opposed to some guy that just is a soldier and keeps becoming a better soldier and that's it. In WHFRP? Well, first you were a soldier, and then an X, but then you became a Y because it paid better, and suddenly you're into contract killing just to keep your finances going.

>>44213015
Spotted by a mage, given some training, do a Yoda sequence for a few weeks, then tragedy as your mentor dies or allowed to mingle outside the walls of the college or town he's training in for some random adventuring. Your mentor subcontracts you out or you retain some ties to the rest of the group.

Anything but Harry Potter the WFRP montage
>although that would be cool in its own right

>>44212929
It is but its a core class which doesn't have much oomph to it, if anything having Apprentice Wizard in there is more DnD style than a single magical tree with several branches.

>>44213118
Fuck yes, you duck and dive, lie a lot and generally try not to use your talents in case of random burnings.

>>44213015
>http://www4.zippyshare.com/v/PXalKqpm/file.html

You're troublesome. Since they taught you enough to be reasonably sure you wouldn't accidentally open a portal to chaos itself they decided experience would do for a few years

>>44213198
I started in Initiate, working for the church

But I wanted to learn Silent Move and wanted to learn Search

I stumbled on a poor box, labelled “War Relief”

I took the cash, spent some XP and switched over to Thief

/

I joined a band of footpads, working on the streets

Soon I became an Alley Cat, and my footedness got fleet

But I wanted up my Fellowship, and learn the thieving brogue

>>44213255

So I conned a priest, spent XP and changed across to Rogue

/

As a Rogue I learnt to gamble, and owned a pair of dice

But the money was too meagre, and the company not nice

So I moved up to a Charlatan, waving good bye to the rats,

Once I’d made myself a fake degree, and purchased d10 hats.

/

I’m a character in Warhammer, reprobate and rake

I like to raise my stats up and I don’t care what it takes

I’m a character in Warhammer, take a look at me

If it’s got a skill I want to learn, then that’s the job for me

/

As a charlatan I made a mint selling hair cures to the bald

But the skill list didn’t interest me and my stat advances stalled

So when the hairless lords of Altdorf put a bounty out on me

I became at once both Bodyguard, and body-guarded-ee.

/

As Bodyguard I learnt Dodge Blow, a very useful skill

And my Toughness and my wounds went up, so I was much harder to kill.

I craved a life of violence so got Specialist Weapon (Fist)

Then got paid for starting bar fights as a Protagonist.

/

In this career I found myself often smacked upon the head

And if it wasn’t for my Fate points, I’d probably be dead

To save my skin I donned some mail I’d managed to acquire

And convinced a drunk and stupid knight to take me as his squire

/

As a squire I soon was master of the flail and demi-lance

And we marched off to Bretonnia, to fight in pseudo-France

It was here I met a princess with a very shapely ass

I bedded her, then wedded her and joined the Noble class.

/

I’m a character in Warhammer, my fortunes rise and fall

There’s no trade that I’ve mastered, but I’m jack of almost all

I’m a character in Warhammer, my stats are getting maxed

My Weapon Skill is sixty, and I’ll soon have three attacks!

/

As a Nobleman, I gained some skills for a better sort of life

Took Etiquette so when dining, I could use the correct knife

>>44213281

But there were combat skills still out there that my XP could afford

So I tried my hand at Duellist, then went on to Noble Lord

/

As a Noble Lord I was given my own army by the Graf

I sent them to the Chaos Wastes, cos I thought it’d be a laugh

They all came back mutated, spread their poison to my flesh

And now I am a Flagellant, taking orders from Slaanesh!

>>44213213
>It is but its a core class which doesn't have much oomph to it

That's kinda the point. Oomph means blowing up your thatched cottage or having a Nurgling take over your dick. If you want to learn magic beyond a couple of tricks like staying dry in the rain, you get real teaching. If you want real teaching, you need a real teacher. If you want a real teacher, you go to school.

>>44213198
The key thing, I think is that the 40k RPGs all cast you in specific roles. You're working for an Inquisitor, or you're a soldier, or something like that. Your career is already decided: You work this job until you die, because if you want to quit you're leaving the scope of the game.

In WFRP, you are most likely just some random people who get together for some purpose, and go about more-exciting-than-average lives in the Old World. It's very sandboxy in that running a merchant business is just as valid and supported a career path as being a professional mercenary, robbing tombs, or playing politics. It's damn hard to take a character from basic to the point where the system asks you to stop, but you can try to get to that point any way you want.

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Another reason to love WHFRP2; it is from a time when setting was more important than social justice.

>>44213427
That last paragraph always reminds me of Mrs. Whitlow from the Discworld books.

>>44213213
>Anything but Harry Potter the WFRP montage

Hey, we've briefly discussed playing a game where everyone is an apprentice, hijinks ensue. Personally, that would be amazing.

>>44213517
He did say it was cool in it's own right. Kinda shitty if you have a party of non-wizards, though.

>>44213563
Obviously except for the one wizard living out the HP fantasy.

>>44213589
Honestly, as the prospective wizard in this scenario, I would feel pretty shitty, which is why I brought it up.

I'm considering a young woman that grew up on the streets of Altdorf and early on discovered that she had a talent for magic, but couldn't afford to attend the academy, after realizing that it's incredibly expensive, and knowing that witches get stitch..ed to a pole and burned.

Now, out of character, I realize that the colleges would take her in, or rather be forced to take her in, but she doesn't know that.

Either way, was considering starting her out as a thieving hedge wizard that runs around the seedier parts of town, trying to make enough money to join the colleges of magic, maybe the Grey Wizard's College (but I was considering just rolling a d8 to see where she actually ends up, where she wants/fits, or something that will never really sit well with her, because life is shit).

Just having trouble envisioning the transition without including massive timeskips.

>>44213791
>Just having trouble envisioning the transition without including massive timeskips.

I think people need to be less afraid of these, its ok for adventurers to have quiet periods or for a random group to have a couple of months where after saving the cat/family mine/mansion/city/world nothing happens to disturb them

>>44213791
If you do go with the Grey College, your DM could reveal someone you liaise with as an undercover Grey who has been monitoring you. He thinks you'd be a good fit, and he gives you some leeway to travel so long as you complete certain objectives and do your reading. Don't worry about checking in- we'll find you.

Or do what >>44213852 said; there's nothing wrong with skipping over a year and a half, seeing how the PCs shape their lives when they aren't risking them day-in and day-out.

Hmm...speakung of HP what would happens if the events of the novels took place in the Warhammer universe?

How long would the Weasly brothers last?

>>44213899
The Weasleys would be watched very closely, and probably burned as a preventative measure; something is clearly wrong if there's a family of wizards, some Chaos in the blood.

Apprentice Wizard Shenanigans would be fun to play, so long as you bend the rules about how strictly everything is punished, especially usage of magic.

>>44213972
Most likely, I was more interested in how much shit the twins would get away with before they're put to the pyre.

>>44214090
Oh, those two. Somewhere between 'very little' and 'nothing', as brewing potions and casting spells on fellow students for laughs is a no-no. There's undoubtedly some mischievous people in the college (a lot of them are young men) but they would get nowhere near that level of shenanigans. Anything beyond dipping a sleeping guy's hand in warm water is too far.

>>44213899
>How long would the Weasly brothers last?

I mean, it depends on how much of HP happens in the Warhammer universe. Is all of Hogwarts there? Is there a literal wizard's school that we're talking about?

Because they'd burn at the fucking stake five minutes after the intro if not. But if they're surrounded by other wizards, in one of the colleges, well I think they'd be punished more harshly, to say the least, but other than that, it'd be largely the same.

Except the entire place would be purged due to the events in some of the latter books. Just take your pick of which one. There's some heavy-ass corruption going on.

>>44214133

Non-magic shenanigans you can likely get away with a lot more. As bringing magic into it is 'You are making this shit very real'

>>44213972
>The Weasleys would be watched very closely, and probably burned as a preventative measure; something is clearly wrong if there's a family of wizards, some Chaos in the blood.

Actually, just read that section in the books. Families of wizards are rare for various reasons, but it's not forbidden, and offspring almost invariably join the college of their parents.

Most colleges have no laws regarding it, but celibacy is held in high regard for most, for various reasons. Only the Amethyst Wizards and the Light Wizards practice celibacy fully and by rule, possibly because the winds themselves take away their urge to procreate.

Jade Wizards get children all the time. The other orders are a bit hit and miss, either because it's not known or because it's not too common.

Now, witch hunters may be of a different opinion, of course. We don't want this whole wizard business getting out of hand, and maybe each generation grows stronger until they explode, boom, chaos portal!

What do you think would be a good path for a ranger sort of character? Skilled with a great big blade and quick to move through the forest.

I might be the person asking about elf magic before. The GM gave the plot and a rookie Wildwood Ranger would fit his story idea much better than a mage. That and likely more easily done without asking houserules.

I'm rather new to the system (Though experienced at the 40k RPGs and a longtime WElf player)

The synopsis: There was a breach in the Waystone Fence by a Beastmen warband. It's unsure if the escaping spirits have been enslaved by chaos magic or if the Beastmen have been enchanted by the spirits but together they are slaughtering villages on either side of the edge of the forest.

The human villages in Wissenland have called for mercenaries and adventurers to keep them safe, Carcassone has marshaled young knights hungry for glory against the beastman menace and Rangers and Waywathers of Athel Loren are on the hunt for changlings and dark spirits.

>>44214417
Lineages do exist, but 7 children, all with magical power? That's one baby away from the Brady Bunch of Chaos; better to put them all to the torch than risk them infecting the others.

>>44214467
Asking honestly here, have you not read the books/are not going to read the books? Everything you ask about is spelled out within them.

There's a Kithband Warrior as a core Starting career specifically for the player who wants to be a Wood Elf.

>>44214651
>7

They've got a higher-than average fertility and are all mysteriously healthy. This is some Nurgle shit, right there.

>>44214733
>have you not read the books/are not going to read the books? Everything you ask about is spelled out within them.

If you're entirely new to the books, it's extremely easy to miss things, or simply not know what you're looking for. I would have had no idea what a Kithband Warrior was, and I'm not completely ignorant on the setting.

>>44214929
It's just that this, combined with the magic questions, shows he knows the setting a bit but that he really doesn't know how the rules work in WFRP.

I can see missing some rules here and there, but if the question is 'what's a good rangery type character' with the stipulation 'I want to be a Wood Elf', it's surprising that he could miss something like that. He says he's a WElf player, so he's familiar with the idea of Kithbands, and all the basic careers in the core book are organized, together, and come with a handy list of possibilities. Even if he didn't see the Kithband, there's also Hunter, Woodsman, and Outlaw that sound close enough. Not exactly what he wanted, but they're a place to go from and names to mention as possibilities instead of throwing out a concept and asking for the mechanics.

I'm not trying to harass the guy, but it honestly seems like he has not even looked at the books.

>>44214733
>>44214929
>>44215137

I didn't notice it, no. The Wood Elf Army book never called them Kithbands (Neither the 6th ed nor 8th ed Army book use the word Kithband a single time. They do have Kinbands and Kindreds though)

I've only skimmed over the books so far. I was literally sold on playing the game today and the various ways you travel along the classes has made it a bit confusing to work out exactly what ones I should aim to hit, not just start with.

Though I likely shouldn't be working on this when I've barely slept either, which likely isn't helping.

I'm sorry to be a bother with this.

>>44215202
>I'm sorry to be a bother with this.

You're not, really. Shit's confusing, yo, especially if you've just started flipping through the books and are trying to get your bearings, making a character, looking over options, etc; all the stuff you do before you sit down and read through each section.

As much as it pains me to admit it, I don't think I've ever read a rulebook in sequence, cover to cover.

>>44215202
OK.

You start in a basic career, finish getting all the advances (all the bonuses), then move on to the next career (as soon as you have the materials).

If you want to be just a Scouty McElf, you get the basic career of Kithband Warrior, then exit into the advanced career of Scout, then into the advanced career of Ghost Strider. On the other hand, depending on how the game goes, you may decide to change up your character a bit; you may get a horse, shack up with a real army, and become an Outrider, for example. Don't try and build your entire career path beforehand, it's not necessary in this system (you're not going to fuck yourself with a bad build) and it gets in the way of the narrative choices that fuel the career system.

Your character will likely die long before you get to that point
Or the campaign will end

>>44213427
>I like a work because it fits with my ideology.

You're not better than the feminazis, knave.

>>44214929
I sort of miss the class section from 1st edition, but all the careers are listed clearly both the actual entries and a list of what race can be what careers

>>44215312
>>44215314

Alright.

Looking this over, I really don't want to aim for Ghost Strider because it's nearly entirely ranged focused and I was hoping to put a big nasty blade into targets.

Unfortunately, so are the talents for Scout.

Do you need to literally be a class to take it? Or can you go for Outlaw without actually being a criminal? As I'm looking for something sneaky and nature-y that's melee focused and it seems from the second before the careers that you need to literally be that occupation.

I'm thinking (Do tell me if I'm doing something wrong) of going:

>Woodsman
>Kithband Warrior (Because you can change to basic careers for the same cost as getting a career that's an exit)
>Veteran.

Does that seem reasonable? Or is bouncing between two basic careers a bad idea?

>>44215328
Strawman-man, is that you?

It's not about "fitting with my ideology", but the fact that it doesn't give a shit about ideology and instead focuses on making a good setting, whether it's matriarchal druids or misogynistic wizards or whatever.

>>44212178
Well, 2nd edition WFRP is based on fluff from an older edition of the wargame. There's no pressing need to update it to the last-but-one.

>>44215648
It's fine wfrp really isnt about charchter builds you won't gimp yourself

>>44215702

Not that the Lore of Athel Loren ever got done for the RPG either.

>>44215690
You check out citizen. Carry on.

>suffer not the /v/irgin to live

We must purge /v/ from our board, if we wish for /tg/ not to become more of a shithole.

>>44215648
Switching between two basics isn't bad. The statblocks overlap a bit, which is good, as it means you won't have to spend too long in a career.

Woodsman to Kithband is probably the right way to go narratively, though do remember to lay in some cash to get your Elf Bow.

They are called careers for a reason, in that you usually are that career. You don't have to be a Woodsman forever, then immediately become a soldier; you could have being a Woodsman as your backstory, but you were motivated to leave the woods and join up with the Graf/local elf leader/whoever is getting the party together to fight the Beastmen, and over time you discover a love of fighting and try to join a Kithband. That's how a lot of the careers work out; you don't have to be a Peasant, you started as a Peasant and now you're trying to be something more.

Outlaw is one of those careers that the DM might declare is an option if you become an outlaw, but generally you can't take a career without being in that line of work.

>>44215690

They are not even misogynistic. More 'We don't have any idea what to do with a female wizard due to us not getting many of them'. It expressly says they don't get treated with contempt and just ignore the gender of students as best they can.

>>44215823
That sounds borderline sjw if anything

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>>44215798
>>44215851
Nevermind what I said earlier.

>>44215800

>Outlaw is one of those careers that the DM might declare is an option if you become an outlaw, but generally you can't take a career without being in that line of work.

Right.

That is a little troublesome as the careers that make the most fluff sense (Scout especially) don't work mechanically at all.

I know I'm supposed to focus more on fluff than the exact rules of the class but I must admit I do kinda wish that there was a melee-leaning scout version. As the Rangers of the Wood Elves are very much 'Bigger, scarier Woodsman' (Big nasty two handed weapons) but both the Nature-expert exits to woodsman (Scout and Hunter) are archery.

Still, thanks a lot. This is very helpful.

>>44211026
So fucking overpowered I don't even have words. Even the retarded Defenders of the Forest elf-wizard wasn't as retarded as this.

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>>44215851
No, that's how actual old-school feminism was supposed to end up; it doesn't matter what's between your legs, if you can do the job.

Now ignoring someone's femininity is discriminatory and de-gendering them.

But we're veering into dangerous territory, so question for the thread:

Small but Vicious Dog: Great trapping, or greatest trapping?

>>44215895
I'm looking through the Career Compendium now (which has all the splat careers) but I don't see anything that really fits your desires for a melee woodlands elf.

>>44216011

Thanks for the help anyway (I should grab that compendium. I'm just rummaging the corebook right now)

>>44213427
But it's outright stated that the misogyny is wrong.

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>>44216044
They're all there in OP, just waiting for you.

I can recommend them just as reading if you're into Warhammer Fantasy; lots of good stuff in there, very much designed by people who enjoyed writing it and knew that it could be bloody and grim at some points without that taking over everything.

>>44214303
Bringing magic into shenanigans in Warhammer would be kind of like pranking someone in real life by firing a gun at his feet to make him jump. You're probably not going to hurt him, but no one would think that was funny.

>>44208707

Died from a Pie and Fell off a Horse Anon here.

The 'Fell of a Horse' death was in the middle of a pitched combat. Didn't have any fate points and critically failed a Ride roll. Took fall damage and copped a really bad critical.

The 'Died from Pie' was actually me retiring a character. He'd gotten annoying and I wanted to write him off, so I spoke with the GM and he approved it.

>>44216095

Welcome to Florida: I'm sure that happened here some time.

>>44216080

Oh yeah. That's where I got the core. I just haven't downloaded them all yet.

Thanks for the help you've given.

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>>44216135
No worries. Enjoy your game.

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>>44215202
>The Wood Elf Army book never called them Kithbands

Strictly speaking no, but generic Wood Elf warriors were called Kith in the first Warhammer Armies book ever printed, for 3rd edition WFB.

That was about the time of WFRP 1st edition, but interestingly enough the Kithband Warrior didn't appear until 2nd edition like 15 years later. The Wood Elf army looked quite different then, after all the lore about the isolationist kingdom of Athel Loren and its strange nature spirits had been developed, and it had been a long time since 'kith' appeared in a unit name, so it's curious that the Black Industries people decided to use that name.

My guess is that the kithband warrior is designed to represent the slightly more generic wood elves of the laurelorn forest and other scattered colonies that are occasionally referred to in WFRP but were ignored by GW at the time. Probably they went with the throwback reference to suggest that culturally, these guys are closer to the woodies of WFB 3, and can adapt a little more easily to human society than an elf who's been acclimated to Athel Loren weirdness.

>>44215946
Fourth greatest. The best is the free elven horse that half the WElf careers from Defenders of the Forest get - that thing is better than most player characters at everything. The second best is the free bear that bear tamers get. The third is the light warhorse that Bretonnian knights errant get.

>>44216177
The core book talks about generic elf societies that have basically lost all the culture of Ulthuan.

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>>44216179

Defenders of the Forest isn't canon, though; isn't it a Liber Fanatica project?

And while I do agree that the Bear Tamer's bear was a lot of fun, it lacks the key element of the Small (but Vicious) Dog: bears are not small, and cannot easily be brought with you into cities, sewers, and other areas where you might need a friend. Plus, they eat a tonne.

Meanwhile, the warhorse fails in the second area that the Small (but Vicious) Dog excels in. The horse may be mean-tempered, it may bite and kick, but it's certainly not viscous. When the ratmen come a-calling, it's going to run instead of boldly defending your ankles.

When the going gets tough, I need someone who will always be there, a friend who has my back to the end.

>>44216364
The warhorse is a warhorse - a horse trained for war. It is trained specifically for use in war, which is why it's so much more expensive than the riding horse.

But you do have a point about the dog being easy to bring with you.

>>44209572
>When you make shit up, yeah, it is.

Alright I don't want to be confrontational, but I didn't think I was misrepresenting his/your stance and I'm kind of curious as to what the argument was that I misunderstood.

How else to interpret
>A proper roleplaying game shouldn't have "abilities" like that either way?

other than as a dismissal of the idea of player characters having special actions they can do that aren't available to most characters.

I can get behind the idea of a game where any character can attempt anything, but to my mind it would only work for games where every PC shares a common background and training like say Paranoia or Pendragon - your dudes all have different aptitudes but the range of what's possible is the same for all of them.

Dismissing RPGs that don't subscribe to this philosophy and cordon off unique powers for certain character types as not "real" rpgs though is a weird stance to take. For one thing it rules out genre-defining properties like D&D and V:tM.

>>44216364
And yet (at least prior to 3e) the SBVD lacks mechanical support, so the usefulness of its vicious temperament is entirely at the GMs discretion.

And hell, if the ratcatcher's dog turns out to be star of the show, well anyone can pick up a terrier and Animal Training. A really good horse is not so easily come by. A bretonnian warhorse is worth more than most careers will see in their, well, career. And you don't need a cooperative GM to derive real benefits from having your own transport and being able to run down churls who didn't bring their own horse. Unless your GM is of the type who feels it's his duty to see that your horse gets stolen and you accidentally eat it in a stew after you work up an appetite hunting down bandits, WFRP tends to attract that sort.

>>44216567
> WFRP tends to attract that sort

So WFRP promotes That GM?

>>44216615
The illusion of That GM, maybe. WFRP is just an unforgiving system.

I didn't kill you on purpose, John. You just pissed off that horse so bad it bit your arm off.

>>44216567
>anyone can pick up a terrier and Animal Training

You shut your whore mouth. The bond between a ratcatcher and his small (but vicious) dog is a holy covenant, forged through years of camaraderie in dangerous situations. It cannot be replaced with a trip to the pound and a Cesar Millan broadsheet.

>>44216643
On the contrary, the illusion of an unforgiving system.

It takes a lot more to kill a WFRP PC than in many other games. No matter how inexperienced, they're never going to lose a fight to a housecat. And on top of that WFRP literally formalised the concept of giving the PC a break and converting death into a close call.

But the relentness, comical bleakness of the setting and bits of gory detail like the critical hit tables which are really just a way to send out a character who's already dying with a little flourish, all contribute to give the game the IMAGE of being ruthlessly lethal. Which grows into a fixed reputation which becomes the thing that attracts That GM (and many other fine and fair GMs) to the franchise.

>>44216567
>the SBVD lacks mechanical support
It's a free dog with the Warrior Born talent. That's not something you come by easily. And getting a dog and Animal Training will only produce the desired result if you roll well enough, take enough time, and the GM lets you do it. The point is that as a free starting trapping, it's pretty damned good.

>>44216798
>But the relentness, comical bleakness of the setting and bits of gory detail like the critical hit tables which are really just a way to send out a character who's already dying with a little flourish

I beg to differ, sir! I've had characters eat critical hit after critical hit without going down, buying critical time allowing the party to get away with their latest treachery - the fact that those characters tend to sit on 30+ insanity points in short order notwithstanding.

>>44216848
Oh was it actually statted somewhere? Then I take it back, that's very useful.

>>44216567

>>WFRP...if you're not knee deep in shit then duck, because another load is past due.

Said by the creator of 1ed.

>>44216880
Yeah, 2nd ed has some of the shittiest editing known to man. Under the dog entry in the bestiary section of the core book, there's a small note saying that a rat catcher's dog has the Warrior Born talent in addition to everything else.

>>44213255
My starting career was soldier
Sold my gun and became a veteran
Killed many people, became champion

A haiku for you.

>>44216798
>It takes a lot more to kill a WFRP PC than in many other games. No matter how inexperienced, they're never going to lose a fight to a housecat. And on top of that WFRP literally formalised the concept of giving the PC a break and converting death into a close call.

Whilst I have to wonder what sort of game would have you lose a fight against a house cat (Mouse Guard excepted), you're quite right on the second chance.

Those Fate Points are a requirement for WFRP. Try playing a game without them, you'll see how quickly characters die. Their inclusion is a nice balance between the grimness of the setting and the heroic elements introduced by the players.

The setting is quite lethal, but it also wears pads to give players some breathing room against that lethality.

Of course, a good GM doesn't let Fate points avoid penalties. Lost limbs, broken legs - all signs of a good GM for WFRP.

A bad GM makes you chew through more than one Fate point in a single fight.

>>44217026
>Whilst I have to wonder what sort of game would have you lose a fight against a house cat

There's a famous story of (I think New) WoD character fighting a cat in a stairwell, almost dying, and running away.

To be fair, he whiffs every possible roll, and a WFRP character could easily be murdered by a cat if he made that many mistakes.

>>44217057
>WoD character fighting a cat in a stairwell, almost dying, and running away

Fucking. Glorious.

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>>44217105
I've had a player whose character was killed by a door falling on them, and an elf who broke his spine falling down a flight of stairs. Shitty rolls can fuck up anyone's day.

>>44217026
>Of course, a good GM doesn't let Fate points avoid penalties. Lost limbs, broken legs - all signs of a good GM for WFRP.

So you think that dying should be less of a problem than losing a bodypart? If you die, you lose a fate point and then you're back in the game. If you lose a limb, your character is useless and you retire it and get a new one. Sounds like great GMing.

>>44217057
The classic example is an OD&D character who might have as few as 1 hit point at first level. Cats were in the bestiary as creatures capable of dealing damage, so in a straight fight they have really pretty respectable odds of murdering an unarmoured character like a thief or wizard.

>>44217163
>I've had a player whose character was killed by a door falling on them

Was it a drawbridge?
Are you Jerry?

>>44217163
GMs making shit up can fuck up anyone's day, more like. While I agree those should be damaging, they're not statted out anywhere in the book - therefore, they do not represent the lethality of the system.

>>44217207
When I used to GM I would let players burn a Fate Point to avoid a serious maiming. On top of that, I'd contrive to have them be out of danger for the rest of the scene. I don't recall if that's in the 2e rulebook though, I remember it required some clarification in a supplement to 1e.

>>44217243
>>Was it a drawbridge?
No, but it was made of solid stone. Also no, I'm not Jerry.

>>44217244
Who cares if it isn't statted? If you get Ulric's Fury, you could very well be toast no matter what hits you. And there's rules for falling damage.

>>44217321
Ulric's Fury is for attacks, not environmental damage, jesus christ...

>>44217321
Ulric's Fury just applies to attacks rather than random hazards I believe, but if that's the game experience you prefer then carry on.

>>44217279
>I'd contrive to have them be out of danger for the rest of the scene. I don't recall if that's in the 2e rulebook though

It's implied.

>>44217279
There are two paragraphs in the section titled 'Using Fate Points': The first says you can burn a point to avoid death, the second that you can burn a point to avoid maiming. You're entirely within the rules in 2e.

On a side note, can I talk about how much I fucking love this book's editors? Sure, sometimes rules are obscurely phrased, but everything is neatly laid out, the sections have meaningful subheadings, and the index is wonderfully concise, helpful and organized. Coming to this from Shadowrun 5e, it's a breath of fresh air.

>>44217321
OK, that makes two WFRP characters killed by a door. I need to hear your story.

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>>44217391
It's not implied, it's pretty explicitly stated that such should be the end goal. The entire example on Fate Points is about how you are a shitty GM if you just have them burn one point after another to keep fighting, and that you should get them to a point where they are no longer in immediate danger.

>>44217383
I apply it for everything. If you're reading it as written, only players can get it, which would make you impervious to almost all harm after a certain point. A guy in full plate and a decent amount of advances could never be harmed by anything short of a Dragon Ogre. It adds more tension to the game if a goblin can get in a lucky strike and kill you.

>>44217398
The character was trapped in a room separate from the rest of the party. The party has the idea of blowing open the door to reunite with their ally. However, he didn't stand far enough away and the door fell on top of him. He had no FP left so he was squashed like a bug.

Semi on topic, how does the thread deal with equipment from characters who are no longer alive? I and a GM I know usually contrive some way to keep their loot away from the rest of the party, as it can turn into a feeding frenzy or a situation where a new character gets decked out in your dead friend's stuff. Something like looters getting to the body first, or the body was swallowed whole, etc.

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>>44217496
I don't use Ulric's Fury for NPCs except important ones, because the math doesn't work out well.

The random goblin is only there to make a couple of dice rolls, take a few hits, and be dead or gone (or possibly he wins, but it's unlikely). He takes maybe two or three attacks, and the matter's settled.

But players will be on the receiving end of dozens, if not hundreds, of damage rolls. The odds of someone, somewhere, getting Ulric's Fury and obliterating the PC due to sheer math, are approaching 100.

I get that PCs don't always have dignified ends, especially in WFRP, but I don't want them done in by mechanical inevitability.

>>44217207
>So you think that dying should be less of a problem than losing a bodypart? If
> If you lose a limb, your character is useless and you retire it and get a new one.

Sounds like a shitty player. I've never retired a character because they were injured unless it was in character to do so.

>>44217551
>done in by mechanical inevitability.

Welcome to Warhammer. Embrace the fold.

It's what Fate points are there for.

>>44217551
>But players will be on the receiving end of dozens, if not hundreds, of damage rolls. The odds of someone, somewhere, getting Ulric's Fury and obliterating the PC due to sheer math, are approaching 100.

Wow that sounds like player favoritism anon. The Grim World of Perilous Adventure isn't there to stroke their egos!!!!

>>44217496
The best damage reduction a human is liable to get is 10. If you don't have unlimited healing, those goblins will chip away at you.

I too give them Ulric's Fury, though in all seriousness, I'd rather no one got Ulric's Fury. I hate exploding dice with a passion.

>>44217496
Semi on topic, how does the thread deal with equipment from characters who are no longer alive?
I don't understand how this is a problem. The new character's probably going to need all that stuff.

>>44217582
I think it would be in character for most people to retire from a life of constant, life-threatening combat if they lost a limb.

>he didn't stand far enough away
How did you determine this?

>>44217496
>The character was trapped in a room separate from the rest of the party. The party has the idea of blowing open the door to reunite with their ally. However, he didn't stand far enough away and the door fell on top of him. He had no FP left so he was squashed like a bug.

Nice. Gotta say, mine is better.

The party had discovered some Beastmen in the forest near a castle who were planning a secret attack, but had basically no credibility (the only one with a real job was a Messenger). They hatched a plan where the Messenger would go inside with a forged letter calling the troops inside to arm up for an honour guard, then they would have one character run outside of the gates and let the garrison know they were under attack.

The first part went well, but the character outside the gates couldn't convince them of shit- mostly because it was a Bone Picker played by that one guy at the table who always tries to do all the talking, even if his character is no good at it. He failed a couple Charm tests, so I ruled he got stuck in the muddy morass where the bridge comes down. Fun and games, right?

The rest of the party, hidden outside, had the bright idea to blow on their (stolen) Beastman horn and add some credence. They blow, get a spectacular success, and suddenly the honour guard is mounting up and shouting for the bridge to be dropped so they can go out and fight.

In retrospect, I really shouldn't have asked poor Erich to make an Agility test to avoid the bridge, but he was stuck and it seemed appropriate. Ended up crushing his leg, he lay there screaming as a dozen horses rode over the bridge. Then the party decided to saw off his leg to free him, and long story short he died a few days later from his infected stump.

They did manage to score some sweet loot off of the dead from the battlefield, though, which I'm sure made Erich's ghost happy.

>>44217708
There are certain careers where you can start with 7 to 8 damage reduction right off the bat, so I wouldn't cap it at 10 even in the best of cases. I love Ulric's Fury. It's always a great time when someone gets one at the right time. You'd think you're watching black people at a basketball game.

>>The new character's probably going to need all that stuff.

That's the problem. You lose the tension of losing a character when all of your things can be transported from one character to another. If a new character is coming in late, I usually just give them some extra starting gold or a few things from the armoury because they had to adventure for a while before meeting the party.

>>How did you determine this?
He was standing close by as he tried to push it open first. He couldn't hear what was going on the other side, so when it came down he didn't have enough time to react to a giant door falling on him.

>>44217794
I wouldn't doubt it was better. The player was relieved, as he didn't like the character he was playing very much.

>>44217708
>I think it would be in character for most people to retire from a life of constant, life-threatening combat if they lost a limb.

Depends on the character and their motivations. To just auto retire a character based on injury without consideration for what that character would do is bad form.

>>44217833
It depends on the injury, too. I played a pirate who lost his right eye, and his left arm a total of four times. I stuck with it because they weren't game enders for him as he usually used a rapier in his right hand and his aim was shit anyway.

>>44208707
>Estelle Eichen, Human Watchman - Fell into the stew, drowned in shit.

Definitely my favourite.

>>44217816
Humans get 30-ish toughness and the most you can get is another +30 (+25 from Champion and Very Resilient for another +5). That's 60-ish toughness. Full plate gives 5 DR, for a total of 11.

Yeah, I was actually wrong.

>>44217816
Personally, I just have the stuff get taken by whatever party members remember to save the body from whatever killed him. They get a few extra coins, or some crap they can sell for a bit of dosh, but it's never a gamechanger.

>>44217833
If the player isn't interested in playing a cripple, I can't imagine a situation where I'd accuse them of breaking character for retiring them. Maybe if they're playing a Slayer.

A quadriplegic dwarf sworn to seek an honourable death but confined to the good chair by the fire in his mate's inn: the saddest thing?

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>>44217934
>not building a battle chair and launching yourself down a mountain into the heart of a WAAAAGH!

It's like you don't even want to remove the stain on your ancestor's honour, anon.

>>44217934

If a crippling injury is enough to make a player lose interest in their character, they didn't have a very interesting character.

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>>44218232
I can't tell if you're joking or serious.

>>44218232
>"Fuck you if you are a ranged character."

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>>44218276
Different anon but it all depends I will say though if your player is playing a "boatman" (pirate) and a lost eye/leg/hand makes him give up on the character then he really is a shit player.

>>44218276

He's got a point. If you don't care about the injuries that occur to a character - especially in a setting where such injuries are likely - then you're probably playing the wrong game.

Losing a foot or an arm shouldn't be something that makes a player want to retire their character.

Losing both legs or both arms is a little different - and even then, the character should get a send off. Their story should get an ending, rather than just "Welp, this one's useless, fetch me a new sheet."

>>44218278

If the sum of your character was 'Ranged' and you get SO shitty that you lost an arm that you went out and retired your character, you've got a shitty character.

Fucking ableists.

On the topic of Wood Elves, what would a Wood Elf Lore of Metal mage even be like?

They can take the Lore of Metal on the TT but I have no clue how it would work in wood elf society. All the other lores I can picture well enough but not Metal.

>>44218551

I imagine he'd be their equivalent of a blacksmith. How do Wood Elves make their armour?

>>44218551
It's not only metal itself, but also transmutation and rationality. I imagine it's rare among the Wood Elves, but has it's place in those who study the methods of Men and Dwarves to better repel them from the forests, and who engage in alchemy.

>>44218606

Seconding this question.

>>44218401
This is racist against dwarves, since gunner line is the only viable way to play Geeweebs shitty army book.

Take your fools gold out of here, umgal.

>>44218606
>>44219371
I would guess that they forge it. They're not complete primitives, they just like living in the woods.

Where they procure metal is a more interesting question. I wouldn't put it past them to have mines but honestly trading with humans and dwarfs seems more to their taste. I just can't see elves doing hard menial work unless they can call it an art.

>>44219542

You think only having one arm gets you out of work? You are a shame on your name and on the names of your Ancestors, wazzoki.

Get yourself a gun stand and get back into line, you filth.

>>44219792
>reload time is so long that he causes disorder in your unit
>implying your aim still won't be shit

You're praising this game for being realistic, right, or does that only apply to some half brain dead definition of roleplaying?

:^)

>>44219878
>>reload time is so long that he causes disorder in your unit
>>implying your aim still won't be shit

>implying either of those are a reason not to do your duty.

Umgi filth confirmed.

>>44219957
>implying causing your unit to drop in combat effectiveness isn't a dishonor in of itself

top kek anon

>>44219978
>implying a dwarf couldn't craft a rifle designed to be used one handed while maintaining combat efficiency.

Talk to me when you've got a beard.

>>44220094

Why stop at the rifle? Pull a Burlok and develop a steamfist.

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>>44220094
>crafting a rifle
>with one hand

>>44220157

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Burlok_Damminson

>>44220157

Are you implying engineers and mechanics can't do their job if they have one hand?

>>44220190
Interesting...

It's the guildmaster of the dwarven engineering guild, and not your everyday schmuck. It would be an interesting quest if your gm approved it though.

Also the link to GW's page reveal a beautifully designed Tzeentch Sorcerer. Thanks anon.

>>44220190
>Burlok's Ingenious Offensive New-matic Integrated Constrictor

THIS is why I love Warhammer.

A one armed dwarf installs a flail into his stump or shoulder and keeps doing his duty you lazy layabouts!

>>44221362

This guy gets it.

Anyone here play 1st edition primarily I know its got some problems but god damn that rulebook is sweet, i also enjoy how compatible it is with WFB

>>44222563

Yeah, 1ed head here. Use some of the bits and pieces from 2ed. Got two versions of the 1ed rulebook - hard over original printing and a softcover re-release.

could anyone give me some fluff about Wood Elf Alter Kindred

are they shapeshifters? or are they just "changed" elves? do they change on the outside? ir is just animal features, or dryad/fey features too?

>>44216437
>other than as a dismissal of the idea of player characters having special actions they can do that aren't available to most characters.

The issue is that you're restricting actions you should be able to attempt either way. Having Talents and Skills that improve your chances is drastically different to having "Abilities" of the kind that was discussed.

I even gave an example of Dark Heresy 2, where they tried to make the act of watching a certain direction and shoot at someone, Overwatch, into a specific ability, and it was limited to certain roles.

It's ridiculous and game-y, like a PC ARPG, or a boardgame.

>>44217026
And let's not fucking forget that if you lost an arm as part of dying, that arm is still fucking gone.

Just.

Gone.

And as opposed to WH40kRP, there's no fixing that shit. It can't be reattached and there's no fancy bionics that makes you want to hack off your limbs. It's dead, Jim.

>>44213427

Elspeth von Draken best wizard

>>44219585

They do have forges, in fact in the 8th Edition army book one section of Athel Loren is known as Torgovann, the Forge of Starlight. It's called the domain of makers and craftsmen, of artisans and smiths, responsible for all the tools of wonder and war employed by Athel Loren.

>>44217708
>Semi on topic, how does the thread deal with equipment from characters who are no longer alive?

Survivors loot the corpse as appropriate and do what they want with it. It does not go to the new character, obviously, unless someone else keeps it and decides to give it to the new guy.

>>44217708
>The best damage reduction a human is liable to get is 10. If you don't have unlimited healing, those goblins will chip away at you.
>I too give them Ulric's Fury, though in all seriousness, I'd rather no one got Ulric's Fury. I hate exploding dice with a passion.

I don't mind Ulfric's Fury in the hands of players and special characters, but for goblins and vicious dogs and whatnot, I'd prefer to simply add 1d10, or roll a 1d10-1 on the Critical Hit table, or both.

Exploding dice on a mook is unreasonable, I think.

>>44219585
mines? trade? bah!

>use sheer magical power to wrench ore directly from the earth
>smelt armor and weapons taken from corpses of stupid Bretonnian and Dwarfish invaders (good thing them both wear lots of armor)
>have friendly trees crumble the bedrock with their roots and use said roots to push the bits of ore to the ground
>cultivating a magical tree strain that actually absorbs metal from earth and rock and grows fruit with pure raw metal inside them
>convert useless materials into metal with supreme magical skill
>black mountains with Dark Magic, annihilating useless rock and leaving only ore behind

>>44223539
*blast mountains, that is

>>44223539

>have friendly trees crumble the bedrock with their roots and use said roots to push the bits of ore to the ground
>cultivating a magical tree strain that actually absorbs metal from earth and rock and grows fruit with pure raw metal inside them

I don't think Athel Loren would take kindly to either of these.

>>44215946
Vampire trappings are awesome

>>44223574
why not?

Wood Elves actually influence trees to grow into living buildings, so it's perfectly ok.

>>44223586

The first one I'll admit could be possible.

The second seems more like something that would be viewed as tampering with nature.

You have to remember that the trees and such within Athel Loren are pretty much entities unto themselves and that they do not all share the same attitude towards the WE. It's for this reason why Athel Loren as the part of itself that is basically /r9k/ fenced in.

>>44223310
Let me tell you about this potion anon...

>tzeentch plots...

>>44223459
>mook

Erg, hate that attitude. Everything is relevant and liable to do damage and have its.own goal

>>44223683
I don't disagree, but you know what I mean. There's a difference between mook #3, #4, #5, and a fleshed out character or antagonist. You'll be facing droves of the former, but not that many of the latter, the point being that you'll be facing a hell a lot more than you'll be dishing out, in the end.

Having it be a mathematical certainty that you'll get an exploding dice to your face, despite any and all effort, is pretty bullshitty.

Ultimately, it might be a good idea to split up Ulric's Fury, but have it explicitly apply to all kinds of damage.

Ulric's Fury from players = as written.
Ulric's Fury from NPC:s = add 1d10.
Ulric's Fury from everything else = roll 1d10-1 for Critical Hit. Basically, this is if you fall off your horse or get a door smacked in your face.

The first is just your characters succeeding in a cool manner.

The second one is to avoid the mathematical certainty of death. It is still pretty fucking lethal in WHFRP2, potentially still pushing you from relative health to death; it's just less likely you'll go from full Wounds to instant death.

The third one is to give thematic effects in addition to any damage suffered if you take a really bad fall, without having to push you into 0 Wounds first, which realistically won't happen in most cases where this would be relevant.

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>>44223664
>Let me tell you about this potion anon...
Tell me more. Please.

In 2nd Ed, do you have to take all the Characteristics increases to finish your career and move onto a new one, or do you just need to take the Skills & Talents?

>>44224234
Well guv, bought it from a Priest over in Nuln I did, says to me "Milo my man, you ever urt yerself you take this and it'll fix you right up" so ere I am with a potion. Now bless Sigmar himeslf I've spent years on the road and never had a tumble.

However I am a bit short of cash now, I've 3 kids to feed yer honor, so I'm selling up, thats right Milo is having a sale. Everything must GO! And for you this potion is just a mere 1 Gold Crown, regenerates, rejuvenates and revitalises, or so that priest told me.

Now tell me, aint that worth a measly bit of gold?

So I have been doing a little lore checking. It turns out that Half-Daemons are actually a thing.

-Two sorcerers from the G&F series are half daemons sired by actual daemons
-One of Maggoth riders from Glotkin is a half daemon born from the union of a witch and a Great Unclean One
-In the "Orion" book a Great Unclean One attempted to rape and impregnate a Wood Elf
-Be'lakor the Shadowlord has raped and impregnated countless females from numerous races and produced lots of rape babies
-The Southpole Beastmen aka "True Beastmen" have no human blood in them. They are direct descendants of beasts and daemons

So with that said. How would you guys stat Half Daemon characters?

>>44224511
so wait, daemons pouring from Southern Gate were like "Oh crap, no humans here and I'm horny. Shall I fuck this penguin? Hell, why not?"

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>>44224585
Yep.

From the look of this map, the daemons really got to work.

>>44224596
hm, guess there's something sexy about penguins then, after all.

>>44224511
>So with that said. How would you guys stat Half Daemon characters?

+10 to all Characteristics, roll 1d100 for Insanity, roll 1d100 for Corruption.

>the union of a witch and a Great Unclean One
>a Great Unclean One attempted to rape and impregnate a Wood Elf

Alright, so, apparently Great Unclean Ones like rape a lot more than I would've thought of a daemon of Nurgle.

Also, nurgle rape-babies. Oh joy. That cannot be a pretty birthing.

>>44224596
There's apparently A LOT less beastmen in the Dark Lands than I would've expected. Also, Lustria is surprisingly empty.

And with that density in Norsca, I'm surprised there's still humans around. They don't exactly live side-by-side, even though the norscans by and large worship Chaos.

>>44224796
I guess it was just made by Imperial scholars.
Hard to tell difference between Norscan and Beastman without going into details.

>ugly snouts
>covered in dirty hair
>armed with rusty broken shit
>perma-drunk
>smell of piss and shit
>only spoken language audible is inhuman shrieks and roar
>absolutely savage
>always rampaging
>reproduce by rape

>>44224796
>Dark Lands

Orcs and Dwarves kill them.

>Lustria

Lizards and brain eating maggots kill them.

>>44224078
>Having it be a mathematical certainty that you'll get an exploding dice to your face, despite any and all effort, is pretty bullshitty.

That's sort of the setting. Looking at them as mooks who are weaker or some how lesser than the characters is a poor way to view WFRP. The players have Fate Points. That should be the only difference between them and the 'mooks'.

>>44224511
>-The Southpole Beastmen aka "True Beastmen" have no human blood in them. They are direct descendants of beasts and daemons

HA.

Oh god, that's amazing.

>So with that said. How would you guys stat Half Daemon characters?

Chuck on a few mutations, have the threat of devolving into a spawn be a real thing that they have to be constantly aware of.

>>44224796
>Also, Lustria is surprisingly empty.
That's what happens when the entire continent is full of supercharged killer life forms who hate chaos.

I'm more surprised about Naggaroth. I knew about the watch-towers and patrols, but elf boy really keeps a clean house.

>>44224796
>And with that density in Norsca, I'm surprised there's still humans around. They don't exactly live side-by-side, even though the norscans by and large worship Chaos.

Take it with a grain of salt. Look at it in comparison to the density in the Old World.

>>44212622
pirate link?

>>44224910
>Looking at them as mooks who are weaker or some how lesser than the characters is a poor way to view WFRP.

Well you're right in that they shouldn't be called or referred to as mooks, because it does the entire thing a disservice.

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>>44224328
Finish the entire Advance Scheme.

>>44224974
That is a pirate link. You can actually download it there.

>>44224596
>>44224924

Am I the only one that was always bothered by Ulthuan not fitting in at all? Like, the entire world is analogous to our own, and either way, all the continents and lands look vaguely natural, like the result of continental drift and so on and so forth.

...and then there's an ENORMOUS perfectly crescent-shaped mountain-range island in the middle of the ocean, almost tying the Old World and the New World together (which begs the question as to just why this "new world" wasn't discovered earlier by just following coastlines).

Like holy shit, that's a huge-ass island with a very specific, jarring form.

>>44223284
>It's ridiculous and game-y, like a PC ARPG, or a boardgame.

Of course it's game-y. So is the act of rolling dice to adjudicate the outcome of a fictional character's actions. We're all gamers here.

But it's not even unrealistic. I, in real life, have no idea how to do lots of things. I couldn't tell a horse to jump a fence, or knit a sock. I wouldn't be able to play the trombone and if someone handed me a fencing foil and said 'en garde!' I would have no idea what stance to asume. I'm not just less likely to accomplish these tasks than someone who trained for it, they require specific techniques and I have no idea where even to begin. It makes sense to force PCs to buy into advance techniques before they can attempt them, and it has the desirable gameplay result of adding a lot of interesting options to the game without requiring every single player to learn the rules for all of them. Hell, if it's particularly complicated, you can just put them on a reference card and hand it to the players that need to know! Practical AND realistic.

Even the Overwatch example seems perfectly reasonable to me. Why is shooting reflexively at enemies if they cross your line of sight on their turn something every character should be able to do? The turn structure is an abstracted, unrealistic gameplay device, so mechanics that play with it aren't really adding to the sense of dissociation. All the overwatch talent says is: someone who has this reacts faster in a firefight than someone who doesn't. It's almost like it's the kind of advantage you'd expect a trained soldier to have.

>>44226184
>
Even the Overwatch example seems perfectly reasonable to me. Why is shooting reflexively at enemies if they cross your line of sight on their turn something every character should be able to do?

Wow, you're seriously this fucking retarded? Anyone trained to use a weapon know how to look in a direction and shoot.

>All the overwatch talent says is: someone who has this reacts faster in a firefight than someone who doesn't.

No, it didn't. It didn't make you better at Overwatch. If you didn't have it, you were incapable of Overwatch. End of.

>>44226119
It's meant to be jarring, because of its unnatural form and because unlike most of the warhammer world it doesn't have even a loose real analogue.

The implication of course is that it's our world that's missing an Ulthuan, and has been ever since Atlantis sank beneath the waves. Portions of Ulthuan HAVE already sunk, and the rest of it is probably sustained only by the magic of the world that it channels through the barely-contained maelstrom in its central sea.

It may or may not have been the intention of the Old Ones that this continent serves as a magical safety valve, but they almost certainly raised this perfectly circular mountain range from the ocean because it served a certain geomantic purpose. Accordingly it's a lot less stable but also a lot more enchanted than anywhere with a real continental shelf beneath it.

>>44226240
>Anyone trained to use a weapon know how to look in a direction and shoot.


You can do that by taking the shoot action on your turn. If you have Overwatch, you can break the games' normal rule and do it on someone else's turn. Incredible!

> It didn't make you better at Overwatch. If you didn't have it, you were incapable of Overwatch.

In the fiction, Overwatch is just being ready to shoot something. The only noticeable difference between someone taking an overwatch action and an ordinary action is that the guy with overwatch reacts faster. Immersion: upheld.

>>44226262
>The implication of course is that it's our world that's missing an Ulthuan, and has been ever since Atlantis sank beneath the waves.

I absolutely realize that Ulthuan is supposed to be an analogy for Atlantis, but it's still odd as fuck. It's not just a small thing, it's a HUGE thing that sticks out like a sore thumb.

If it was just a big city, or a group of islands with a central mountain, it would be infinitely better.

>It may or may not have been the intention of the Old Ones that this continent serves as a magical safety valve, but they almost certainly raised this perfectly circular mountain range from the ocean because it served a certain geomantic purpose.

Source? Or are you just theorizing?

>>44226293
>You can do that by taking the shoot action on your turn.
It's like you're the densest motherfucker in the room.

>In the fiction, Overwatch is just being ready to shoot something.
Narratively, the difference is that Overwatch is the act of preparing to fire. You spend your action during your turn, to shoot when you see something move in the direction you are watching.

Rounds are an abstraction of simultaneous events; if you prepare beforehand, there is no reason why you should suddenly be able to do Overwatch and others shouldn't.

Again, we're not talking about becoming better at Overwatch, such as not being able to shoot on Overwatch on a shared Round without it, we're talking about being able to take the action at all, no matter your setup time.

You could conceivably wait there for three rounds, and have someone run straight for you during their turn, and you're just unable to shoot them because hey, you don't have Overwatch.

It's absolutely ridiculous, and you're trying to make it out like it's the difference between mundanes and wizards, just to defend a shitty boardgame based around ability cards that pretends to be a roleplaying game.

>>44226295
The Annulli mountains specifically are described as channelling magical energy somehow in, I think Warhammer Armies: High Elves for 4th edition, probably later. The rest is theorizing, but a lot of Warhammer lore leaves you to fill in the implications for yourself. It's certainly by design that it looks so artificial.

>>44226444
Well I still would've been happier if it would've been, like, 1/3 of that size.

>>44226262

>and the rest of it is probably sustained only by the magic of the world that it channels through the barely-contained maelstrom in its central sea.

This was proven to be the case in the End Times when the dissolution of the Great Vortex caused at least a majority of Ulthuan to sink.

>>44226365
>You could conceivably wait there for three rounds

It just doesn't bother me because RPG combat with its segregated turns and grid-marked arenas is so abstracted from what a real fight looks like. If the rules say I can't shoot this guy as he crosses the room to stab me even though I have a gun in my hands I'll live with it, assuming the game is fun enough on its own terms.

>just to defend a shitty boardgame based around ability cards that pretends to be a roleplaying game.
I feel like it's important to defend the right of games to be games.

And I'm sure it's a lost cause, but I can't help but observe that WFRP 3, unlike WFRP 1 and 2, is not supposed to be played with a board or battlemat.

>>44226473
You like that? Then how about this: the Old World is supposedly like 10 times the size of Europe, despite containing approximately 1% the number of distinct peoples and places.

The real tragedy of Age of Sigmar is that I really think the setting could have used a sensible reboot.

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>>44226473
I just assume its a map of the world as drawn by someone from the Old World. There are bits of that are quite well mapped, but the scale is out and parts of it are the best guesses of people who may have sailed that way once or are working on old descriptions. Pic related is a world map by Abraham Ortelius in 1564, and while its definitely recognisable it looks more like the Old World than a modern map.

>>44226637
>the Old World is supposedly like 10 times the size of Europe

Wat

>>44226637

Except for Archaon, I think Fantasy's lore was mostly all right.

It was the actual game itself in my opinion where the wheels came off.

I realize this is probably answered in one of the books, but in case one of the resident loremasters just happens to know it on hand, I must ask:

What is required to see the Wizard Colleges in Altdorf? Is it enough to be capable of magic? Do you see all the Colleges? Or do you only see the College you're a part of?

I know that they are hidden, and cannot be seen by ordinary people, but would it be possible for an emerging spellcaster to start seeing them, and other things, in Altdorf? What's the qualifier here?

>>44226637
>The real tragedy of Age of Sigmar is that I really think the setting could have used a sensible reboot.

I really, really, really fucking hate The End Times and Age of Sigmar, and I doubt they could've done a good job of rebooting it, without it becoming some trite SJW nightmare of a generic, modernist setting, never understanding the appeal or the originality of it. But I agree.

>>44226866
I'm pretty sure you need to have a talent for magic and avoid the Witch Hunters, as well as have some kind of financial banking because college isn't free, kids. Unless you can get the attention of someone in the Colleges who is willing to sponsor you, specifically someone with clout.

>>44226866
Not all the colleges are hidden.

The Jade College is surrounded by an immense wall, sixty feet high.

The Grey College is just a shabby building in the shittiest district in Altdorf, with secret entrances across the city.

The Gold College is as jumble of forges and laboratories, sprawling, five stories high in some places, a maze of dorms and buildings, in the outskirts of the city, along the river, part of it running through the grounds.

The Light College is actually hidden by intersecting ley-lines that creates a folded pocket space, meaning it's not technically cloaked, it's just occupying a place you cannot currently see.

The Celestial College isn't technically hidden either, and it's tower is located near the royal palace, but it is protected by spells that makes it so that people simply don't feel the urge to look in that direction, and when you glance anyway, there just happens to be a cloud in the way, or a fluttering banner blocks your view momentarily. People know something is there, they just don't care about it. But if you know about it and are looking for it, you can see it just fine.

The Amethyst College is just a grim-ass gothic structure that overlooks the massive cemetery of Altdorf, near the Temple of Morr.

The Bright College is located in a small district of completely burned-out buildings, where there can still be smoldering ash found, but nobody knows for sure what happened there, or why they are burned, and nobody can see the Bright College itself, other than sometimes seeing footsteps in the ashes or someone at the corner of their eyes. The area appears haunted to the casual observer and if you go there you can have visions of the burning buildings and see flashes of searing light.

The Amber College does not have any grounds in Altdorf because fuck you and fuck your mother too.

>>44226637
The real tragedy is that you can tell the writers have tried really fucking hard, more passionately than they have for a couple of years with Warhammer or 40k

And its still generic and shit.

>>44227301
>as well as have some kind of financial banking because college isn't free, kids. Unless you can get the attention of someone in the Colleges who is willing to sponsor you, specifically someone with clout.

Actually, yeah, it's not free, but the Colleges MUST accept you, even if you have no money and no family. It just means that they'll treat you like shit and you'll have to work it off so much harder. The Colleges aren't allowed to turn anyone away, it's part of the deal.

They are also mandated to carry out investigations into magical matters and reports of spellcasters, and if there are any, drag them back to the Colleges whether they want it or not, or inform the Witch Hunters so they can take care of the matter - which they are unlikely to want to do, considering that all wizards think that the witch hunters are assholes and vice versa.

If you're a hedge wizard, it's a toss-up who finds you first; a mage that'll try to drag you to the colleges (and hopefully you will pass the corruption-scan), or a witch hunter that'll have you burned for witchery.

>>44227512
To be perfectly fair, I doubt anyone can shit out gold when they were probably given a piece of paper with ten or so bullets of information and told to make something to sell to newbies. Not that any of AoS was good, but it was a near impossible task.

>>44226811
>Except for Archaon

But...why?

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>>44227537
I don't have Realms of Sorcery handy, but that does sound reasonable. If you don't have any money, you're probably treated like the minority scholarship people.

Though I would have to disagree, as that's what the Black Magisters are for. I doubt anything short of an order from the Emperor himself could convince a Patriarch to hand over anything to the Witch Hunters, since if you let someone else do your dirty laundry, they can see all the shit you've left behind. And they'll probably tell everybody too.

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>>44227589
I'm not entirely sure what you disagree on, based on your post.

>>44227790
The way I read it, it sounded like a 'a or b' kind of argument. As in if a hedge wizard says no, they hand them over to the WH, rather than taking care of it themselves.

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>>44227837
Well the book isn't actually that clear on that, but they can absolutely take care of it themselves - but they CAN also report it to the witch hunters.

They're just very unlikely to want to do that, since they hate witch hunters. It is much more likely that if someone refuses to come with them to the college, they'll take care of it themselves.

>>44227837
>>44227946
Oh, and it's mentioned elsewhere in the books that Witch Hunters are supposed to drag people under the age of twenty to the colleges, too, whether they like it or not (or maybe it's just practice, but either way, it says that somewhere).

Wouldn't wanna be those kids.

>>44227983
>>You have to take me to the colleges, I'm twenty summers!
>>You said the day of your birth was tomorrow, right? Let's just wait right here, you and I...

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>>44228321
>You have to take me to the colleges, I'm but nineteen summers!
>That's what they all say.

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Alright, so, apparently I suck at rolling dies. Let's try to roll up another character!

It's going to be human, but the rest is up in the air.

First to roll a d1000, or a d100 and mention what table in the Career Compendium they'd prefer (if they have it, otherwise, just roll a d1000) decides what career we're gon' gettin'!

Also, I need someone to roll a 1d2 to determine gender. Even = Male, Uneven = Female.

>>44227586

Because he alone basically puts a stop to the setting progressing, stifling room for anything new to happen. You can't just have him lose as is because that kind of shits all over the fact that he is supposed to be the one that leads Chaos to ultimate victory.

It would have been much better if they had toned him down, that way him losing would actually be palatable.

>>44226119
I always thought of it as atlantis so it didn't really bother me that its so differwnt and out of place from the reat of the continents

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>>44230009
Yet WHFRP2 had no problems progressing past the point of the Storm of Chaos, really.

I don't disagree that they should've toned him down, and from the perspective of "Storm of Chaos is here to fuck up absolutely everything", it was no better than the End Times (which succeeded in that harebrained fucking madness).

But I disagree that he alone basically put a stop to the setting progressing - something I don't necessarily care about, because I don't think the setting needs hard progression, rather than just being expanded upon piece by piece, slowly, evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

Besides, in Chaos, there's really nothing that would've prevented Archaon from returning and doing what was planned at a later date, or just make it all out to be as planned, or whatever. There's a thousand possibilities, many of which aren't necessarily shit.

But they chose to retcon everything, shit all over the setting and all it's fans, and then nuke it from orbit, instead of continuing the setting without a retcon, setting up a separate continuity, and just create two divergent settings, Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar.

I sincerely and honestly do hope that everyone at Games Workshop dies from Nurgle's Rot.

>>44230112
Shut the fuck up Duncan has done no wrong

>>44230167
Acceptable casualties.

>>44227546
>I doubt anyone can shit out gold when they were probably given a piece of paper with ten or so bullets of information and told to make something to sell to newbies
>what is rogue trader?

>>44226119
ulthuan is specifically made to look artificial rather than natural, for the following reasons: it was made to look like atlantis, it was make to look like the yin and the yang, it was supposed to resemble a dragon biting its own tail, it was made by the old slann themselves rather than being a modification of already existing lands.
it had purposes in its look that the rest of the world didn't have beyond resembling real life formations.

because if you really must have elves, it's better to make a containment continent to keep their bullshit apart, but then chaos happened.
really, fuck those guys.

>>44230370
That became a really bad part of later WFRP fan and real releases - to many careers when all that needed changing for some was giving a selection of alternate talents or advances or even just a flat out rename

>I want to play a Caravan Guard!
>Heres a made up career
>Well thanks, but I could just play Coachman, its the same basic job no?

>>44230112

I had a problem with the Storm result because it basically did what I described and shit on what is basically Archaon's entire character, being the one who will usher in the end.

Personally I don't think multiple attack works as well for him as it does Abaddon, when he decides to move that should be the beginning of the end.

I'm also not really so sure the Fantasy setting could have survived by just expanding without adding new factions. You only have so much time and space after all.

The reason they didn't diverge is because GW didn't want two Fantasy products, they wanted Fantasy or its replacement to be profitable enough for them again and attract people's interest again, which I personally think could have been done by looking at the real culprit, the game mechanics. Realize that this isn't the 80s or 90s anymore and that times have changed and people have more things to occupy their interests, that maybe they don't want to spend the time and money painting up huge units that are ultimately pointless and whose models 10+ years old in some cases.

I really liked aspects of the Tomb Kings, particularly the Necrosphinx, but I'm not going to spend the money and time on who knows how many bad looking skeletons with spears because the game demands that I do to actually field the models I do want to paint and play with. To say nothing of it being said that Fantasy didn't really work at low points levels.

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>>44230112
The thing with Archaon is that he was invented not long before Storm of Chaos. He wasn't even the first Everchosen of Chaos in the fluff, he was just the mightiest because he found six artefacts (that I believe had also just been made up). People liked him because he had a kickass model, the fluff was interesting but he was no more essential to the setting than any other legendary warlord. If they died someone would replace him. The fluff from the time even hedged the bets, saying how the incursions of chaos are becoming more and more frequent and PERHAPS the latest is the last.

So after the Storm breaks Chaos loses in a big way, Archaon the character gets spawned (and could potentially have become a character spawn or something) and the model continues to be sold as a generic chaos lord. Some years later a new Chaos Lord rises to take his place. He was only made absolutely essential to the setting in End Times, and I half suspect that was to try and flog as many horse riding Archaons as possible before they obsoleted them for the horrible dragon thing.

I'll be honest with you though, I never liked using the premade special characters. Half the fun was having the history of your own little hamlet or warband develop. It was one of the worst points about End Times - I don't care about these poorly written special characters, I was invested in my Big Teef Mountain Orcs, or the baronage of Mousilon.

On a completely unrelated topic, since I'm rolling up a Peasant, which region of the Empire would you consider the shittiest? Not necessarily deadliest, just shittiest, most dung-covered, peasant-hostile shithole?

>>44230486
>The reason they didn't diverge is because GW didn't want two Fantasy products, they wanted Fantasy or its replacement to be profitable enough for them again and attract people's interest again, which I personally think could have been done by looking at the real culprit, the game mechanics.

I don't disagree in your analysis of what was done and why, but I argue that it doesn't matter; they could've done that anyway, and simply discontinued Warhammer Fantasy without shitting on the setting and it's fans.

Honestly just establishing End Times and Age of Sigmar as a separate continuity completely, prompting new wikis and supporting things would've done a whole lot to actually do what they wanted, without alienating the old fans. Yes, they would've been disheartened and maybe feel abandoned, but they wouldn't be actively shat on and see their setting ruined beyond all recognition.

And it would've meant that they could've still kept Warhammer Fantasy "as is", meaning going back to it if Age of Sigmar doesn't pan out (which it isn't), or just outsource the whole thing as necessary.

Now they just fucked up everything and put all their eggs in one basket that the old fans are actively and rightly beating on with bats.

>>44230534
>I'll be honest with you though, I never liked using the premade special characters
you open a difficult discussion here: how much worldbuilding is good worldbuilding?
the richer the setting, the better it is, in theory
but the more the details, the less are liberties too
every word and description is both an addition and a limit
is it good worldbuilding to NOT have the most important characters representative of their respective races fleshed out?
is it good worldbuilding to have important character fleshed out but not taking part in important events of their calibre?

this on the greater and general vision of things, I agree that the end times more specifically were particularly invested in the specialest of characters to the point of making everything but their movements and actions looking irrelevant.

>>44230534
>I'll be honest with you though, I never liked using the premade special characters. Half the fun was having the history of your own little hamlet or warband develop. It was one of the worst points about End Times - I don't care about these poorly written special characters, I was invested in my Big Teef Mountain Orcs, or the baronage of Mousilon.

Don't disagree in the least. The appeal was always the small things, not the over-the-top showdowns, but the casual shit being flung, of a world that is slowly, slowly, slowly circling the drain - not one that sees a singular cataclysmic event where the moon crashes into it and everything goes into some kind of divine bogaloo.

I'm not saying that I like Archaon or the Storm of Chaos, just that it wasn't "that bad" and that ultimately, it was a hell of a lot better than End Times simply because we still had the setting.

There could've been countless Archaons after eachother, each "destined to bring about the promised world of Chaos" or somesuch nonsense, and we would've scoffed at it, been occasionally killed because we did, and so on and so forth. But nope, everything had to end and everything had to be ruined, with a large sign saying "Chaos will always win, nothing matters, the end" above it all.

Just the idea of primordial forces taken shape suddenly "tiring of their old game" is patently absurd. They are who they are because they have to be, because that's what they are.

>>44230642

>which it isn't

There technically is no proof of this beyond anecdotes and probably won't be for some months.

GW would have been just as damned if they decided to not do the End Times because then Fantasy wouldn't haven't been left with a conclusion and you have people whining about being abandoned.

Honestly as long as you have the books and know what size bases the models go on, the End Times does nothing since you can continue still playing Fantasy if there are people to play with.

>>44230732

>I agree that the end times more specifically were particularly invested in the specialest of characters to the point of making everything but their movements and actions looking irrelevant.

Because players' little pissant characters don't really matter in the grand scheme of things, the special characters are the movers and shakers.

It's truly kind of annoying that some players of both 40k and Fantasy can't grasp that GW doesn't give a damn with regards to their characters.

>>44230762

>"Chaos will always win, nothing matters, the end"

Which was always the truth, it was recently clarified by one of the old designers that the intention was that Chaos could never truly be beaten and at most infinitely delayed.

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>>44230762
You could even have continued it further if Chaos had won the Storm completely and utterly. Oh no, Ulric is dead and large parts of the Northern Empire are under the black iron boot of the Chaos Lords! Only the rest of the Empire, Sylvania, Brettonia, Athel Loren, Tilea, Estalia, significant chunks of the Skaven under empire, Nagashizzar, Nehekara, the dwarf holds, every Ork ever, all those ogres and (once he either goes back up to the Northern wastes and goes the long way around or builds a giant warfleet) Ulthuan, Naggaroth and Lustria stand in his way!

It might well have been the end of the world eventually, but there's no reason it couldn't have been a prolonged process.

Also there were at least four Everchosen before Archaon, and countless other warlords that did about as much damage. Even some goblins have done as much as damage as Archaon did in the end.

>>44231058
I mean seriously it's been explicit since the earliest days of the setting that Chaos is how the world will end. If you're not ok with that kind of fatalism what are you playing this game for?

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>>44230642
>On a completely unrelated topic, since I'm rolling up a Peasant, which region of the Empire would you consider the shittiest? Not necessarily deadliest, just shittiest, most dung-covered, peasant-hostile shithole?

Border of Ostermark and Stirland, maybe close to Talabacland. Residual warpdust contamination from Mordheim contaminating the fields, Sylvania as a neighbour and miles and miles of Beastman infested forest. If you were from right on the border you're probably getting taxed by both Elector counts but not getting the benefits of either because its either too far from the capital to bother protecting properly or because they believe the other one will deal with problems.

>>44231094
>It is the year 2600 IC and all of the Empire is under the sway of Chaos
>All? No, one plucky village holds out in the West, defended by its valiant warriors and the trickery of the Grey college

>>44231094
One of them wasn't even the Everchosen proper. He was possessed by Be'lakor and his body was later destroyed. It would be quite fitting if Archaon was deceived.

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>>44231348
I'd play it. Sounds like great fun, harassing long suffering norscans who just want to go home at this point, breaking out to go tour the occupied countries, signing up with a warhost going to Nehekhara to find an enslaved friend and driving the commanding Chaos lords to drink, blowing up the pirate ships every time you get on a boat, it'd be great. Although it should probably be in Brettonia rather than the Empire proper.

That inspired another thought, Archaon and his most powerful forces might not need to eat or seek shelter, but the logistics of occupation and simply trying to keep the hordes fed, armed and armoured are going to be immense. Mortals need to eat. Demons need regular binding and sorcerers that aren't starving to death. Armour needs mending, monstrous beasts need placating, wounds need stitching up, shelter has to be sought. They can survive on plunder for a bit, but eventually Korgaaal Bloodfist is going to have to either learn to eat his trophy skulls or turn some of those swords into ploughshares.

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>>44231382
Kharduun? Yeah, he was the proper third Everchosen, but Be'lakor fucked everything up and the Gods found it funny to mess with him. The dude's basically Dick Dastardly, his ridiculous plans and attempts to cheat are always his downfall.

Again, not that he's that compelling a character. Fantastic model, one of the best demon Princes GW have ever done, turns out to be a pretty generic eeeevil mastermind.

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>>44231348
>Join zer warhost, zey said. Its a real man's life, zey said.

>>44232074
Christ, imagine if they try to make a new Be'lakor model.

I am not sure anything can be a bigger fuck up than the Archaon replacement but I have a twisted sort of anti-faith in modern GW that they can pull it off.

>>44231058
>and you have people whining about being abandoned.

You're missing the point. Yes, there would've been whining about it being abandoned, but there would also have been closure, and the fact that you wouldn't actively antagonize all the fans for all eternity (or until Age of Shitmar is discontinued, anyway).

Of course there'd be whining. There'll always be whining. But there's a pretty big difference between saying "Sorry guys, we're going to stop actively marketing Fantasy, and move onto this spinoff instead." and being like "Nenenenenene, we blew it all up because fuck you, now suck our abominable cock of a creation that doesn't even bear a semblance to what you like!"

If you don't see that, you just may be autistic.

>>44231058
>Which was always the truth, it was recently clarified by one of the old designers that the intention was that Chaos could never truly be beaten and at most infinitely delayed.

Huge, huge, huge difference from flat-out canonizing Chaos' forever-victory. Going up against impossible odds is not the same thing as being shown the end screen in big letters; YOU LOSE.

>>44231348
10/10 would play..

Still say there wouldn't be any need for such radical progression, though, but I doubt that was your point, anyway.

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Tord Schnauzerhill, delinquent peasant from the village of Mistdorf, Ostland.

http://i.imgur.com/JYtiVlN.png

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>>44232612
I look forward to the inevitable angular abomination suffering from skull tumours with bated breath. Come on GW, I believe in you! Dig through that barrel bottom, do the impossible, plumb the unplumbable!