whats the point of playing 7th edition 40k if its nothing but spamming the best formations all day every day?
man I remember the days when people got pissed that space wolves got to field 4 HQs
Same shit, different name.
Every game was always about spamming best shit. Now it's formations
>>44198253
At least formations give some mediocre units a use now. How many people would have given Tomb Blades, Assault Marines, Infiltrators, or Stealth Suits if they weren't useful in formations?
>>44198253
This >>44199108
WAACfags are going to spam the most efficient option regardless of what the rules are. If anything, formations are a boon for fluffy lists, since they usually require lesser-used units, give you benefits for weaker squads, and let you more carefully tailor what your force consists of. If you want an all-tank Eldar army, you can do that now without going unbound or having to invest in troops or an HQ.
>>44198253
Before we proceed, are we arguing the metal of 7th edition vs the meta of earlier editions? Or are we arguing the rules of 7th edition vs the rules of earlier editions?
Because to me it seems like you are arguing the meta over the rules. To which I say your nostalgia goggles have blinded you if you have completely forgotten that this is nothing really new. The only difference is before formations people were just spamming the best unitsall day every day.
>>44198253
Every edition has been bad for the same reasons people think this edition is bad its just the specific phase, models, and combos that have changed.
>>44198253
WAAC netlisting min maxing faggots will always try to run the most broken combos in any and all games they play.
Lets look at key points in 40k releases over the last few years that caused max butthurt
5th edition: GK release - completely dominated the melee meta, BA fags were so buttblasted they lost themselves to the black rage
6th edtion: CSM helldrakes/nercon flying croissants and other fliers - Fliers were pretty much invulnerable at this time period, anyone without a plane or AA was stomped. Nercon fliers got most scorn, helldrakes did after their FAQ turret weapon
Daemons release - summoned daemons and flying MC spam overran and caused mass rage
Tau - a month later tau got riptides and skyfire for days. the butthurt was strong
Eldar - wraithknights begin
Tyranids - update and area terrain meant nids could hold their own and were very hard to kill. This if course changed shortly with
Imperial Knights - just a year after daemons, now you could play an army that invalidated your enemies non-anti tank firepower. And it was bullshit.
Now we go to 7th edition, were most armies have some sorta giant kit and formations. Not much else has changed for those armies, aside from the obvious power increases from d weapon spam from eldar.
If you don't play space woofs, BA, nids, CSM or sisters then 7th is the place to be.
So why 7th edition? Because GW said "HA HA watch this, release almost same 6th ed codex with "Formations" we pulled from apoc books with minimal editing and they will sell like hotcakes, or whatever the fuck the British call pancakes. Flapkjacks?
>>44198253
Because GAMES WORKSHOP is the ONLY and the BEST tabletop gaming company! GAMES WORKSHOP innovates constantly to bring you better and better models and to keep your gaming experience FRESH! There is no universe like the universes created by GAMES WORKSHOP in its trademarked WARHAMMER: 40,000 and WARHAMMER: AGE OF SIGMAR games! Nobody provides bargains like GAMES WORKSHOP, as there are NO OTHER OPTIONS!
Ignore that guy in the corner called Corvus Belli. And the Hawk guy too. They're bad men. And they don't have WARHAMMER: 40,000! or WARHAMMER: AGE OF SIGMAR! You can't experience the narrative glory of SIGMAR's faceless flawless STORMCLAD ETERNAL legions from them!
tl;dr GW still thinks they have a monopoly and aren't really trying anymore.
>>44200471
Games workshop literally just focus' on making models at this point. Other games keep gameplay in mind, but for GW it's on the back burner.
CB makes great metal models
HWG has great resin
>>44198253
Formations provide more fluffy was of playing than WAAC ways of playing.
What would it take for 40k to be great again?
I played back in 4th edition left about half way threw 5th, would love to come back in but the costs and lackluster rules are throwing me for a loop.
>>44202704
>What would it take for 40k to be great again?
A grand campaign that actually does something for once
Cheaper
Free Codex PDFs (lol, as if)
Games Workshop stores not being full of salesmen faggots
>>44202704
It was never good let alone great. There was just nothing else before
If you're just focusing on winning every game that's why you're not having any fun, GW leaves the game open ended dude you and your opponent can run whatever lists you want basically as long as you both consent to it, design missions and shit and add an imaginative d&d vibe to the game it doesn't have to be purely combat focused. Last week I ran a space marine battle force army defending a relic against a tyranid army 5x larger and it was awesome.
>>44202813
At least they could make collecting Imperial Guard financially viable again
>>44200471
>Dropfleet Commander lures me in with the promise of orbital pseudo-naval shenanigans
>two weeks later I've read all their fluff and rules for DzC and hunger for more
Well played, Brits
>>44200661
How do Hawk's plastic starter boxes hold up on model quality?
>>44203398
Pretty good just remember that everything is pretty small, and you will only really be able to see them in game from top down.
>>44203398
The infantry suffer the most going from passable (UCM/Scourge) to kooky (Shaltari) to just bad (PHR) In fact I highly recommend just getting PHR in resin and saving yourself the loss in detail, which UCM, Scourge, and Shaltari do not really experience to the same degree on their non infantry units.
I would not expect the DFC models to have the same issue however
>>44200316
good post
>>44200316
I can see this wizard goes for warhammer lore.
>>44200471
>STORMCLAD ETERNAL
You know, stormclad sounds way better than stormcast
>>44198253
>>44199108
>>44199238
>>44200316
>>44202704
I really think the large model count required now is as damaging to 40k as it was when they forced it on Warhammer.
They will end up AoSing 40k eventually.
>>44198253
I'm so glad I quit 40k before space wolves got to field four hqs
As the rules get tighter and more fair the community get worse, back in the early editions the rules were so busted no one was competitive because cheese armies were real cheese and you just accepted it and played with your fluffy army cause would be stomped anyway. Now that the shit tier is more competitive with the turnyfag tier it is nothing but bitching.
>>44205528
>They will end up AoSing 40k eventually
>focus on a moving narrative
>less customization
>less restrictions
>free upgrades
>eventually
No, anon, the beast is already moving
>>44205528
That ship has already sailed somewhat. They got rid of a lot of the options for models that required you to customize or kitbash, removing a lot of interesting modeling options. Now it's just focused on making you by more of the stock special weapons.
Likewise, games have only gotten bigger. It used to be 1000 points was a lot, a few squads of marines, a Dreadnought, and an HQ. Now you can run all that under 500 points easily.
Lords of War and Formations are an extension of this, brining things from Apocalypse into standard 40k.
I can understand why they're doing it, but the way they're going about it is just to sell models rather than try and make things fun.
Having lords of war in standard 40k could be fun. Having one big setpiece model to center your force around could be cool in larger point games.
What did they do? Make formations to let you circumvent the 1 model limit, and make them cheap enough to fit into very small games with no restrictions.
Formations started as a few dataslates and extra rules for running squads a certain way and taking lesser used units, but now they're full blown Decurions with massive upsides for taking models you were going to take anyway.
Would you believe there's not even a kroot-only formation in the Tau codex? It would have been the perfect opportunity to set up a way for people to run a Kroot only force without having to throw in an extra HQ, and to maybe set them up with some special rules to make hounds and Krootox more worthwhile. Instead, they got paired together with Vespid for something more lackluster.
>>44200661
>literally just focus' on making models
Shame on you for swallowing GW's spotted dick.
Gaming pieces can legally be copied in the UK, so GW claims Genuine Citadel(tm) miniatures are ACTUALLY collectible figurines - so they cannot be copied ad infinitum with impunity. Notice a trend of storefront "GW" signs being replaced with "WH?" Guess why.
Their rule writing is stupid and unbalanced today because efforts by stalwarts such as Pete Haines, Andy Chambers and Rick Priestly to make the rules and setting more coherent GOT THEM ALL FIRED. All that remain in the studio are interns and the most stealth-capable slackers and the most abject Yes Men of yesteryear.
There's your "back burner."
>>44205594
Aye but they aren't that utter shit tier yet. Getting there, at least the background fiction is largely intact.
>>44205658
>Would you believe there's not even a kroot-only formation in the Tau codex?
Another clear example that formations have very little to do with forging the narrative.
I looked into selling my models off on ebay and they are selling so cheap at the moment it's barely worth selling. A lot of people leaving the hobby and a lot less people buying. If it's indicative of the state of 40k it's very bad news.
>>44198253
>the wall of mirrors
What the fuck that doesn't even make sense. What is that even supposed to represent?
Their targets are still in cover...the vehicles are still facing them...what?
Why is every complaint about the shitty direction GW games are going in these days met with WAAC accusations?
>WAAC
What is WAAC?
>>44207059
Win
At
All
Cost
>>44207027
Because if you want your game experience to be deeper than yelling HURRDURRDUURRRR and throwing dice buckets and beer at your opponent in an attempt to drown him, clearly you're a dirty nofun tryhard.
>>44207027
>the only people who care about game balance are tourneyfaggots
that's the mentality
no, it doesn't make sense
>>44198253
Sincerely I prefer now that a marine player "spam" a battle company, one of the most fluffiest way to play in existence, compared than before when players spammed monkeys or you had in one list more purifiers than they existed in the galaxy .
>>44207078
That is what it feels like.
Just look at all the morons defending the lack of points and army building rules in AoS because it 'stops tourneyfags'.
As if wanting a game with actual rules and an attempt at balance is inherently a bad thing for fun and fluffy lists.
>>44202799
So Age of Sigmar?
>>44207066
Thanks!
>>44207131
I don't think he was hoping they would destroy the setting and replace all the models and characters people like.
Then throw all the rules out the window.
>>44198253
>7th edition
How does it feel to only have one edition left before "40K: Age of the Emperor" replaces your game?
>>44207202
See, everyone would be stoked for that, which is why it won't happen.
>>44207202
As a CSM player, I want everyone else to suffer. I'll take it.
>>44207202
Our game sells more than overpriced brushes. We are pretty safe.
>>44207202
Things often said in the 40k general (and some other parts of the internet) nowadays:
>New eldar players are advised to take 1 heavy weapon per 3 jetbikes, and to go easy on the d-scythe wraithguard
>New players across a few armies are advised to only go with 1 riptide/wraithknight/dreadknight/imperial knight/stormsurge/whatever per 1000 points
>People advised not to bring all knight armies without warning their opponent
>New admech players advised not to go war convocation or put the whole army in flesh tearer drop pods
>New nid players advised that, though the flyrant props up the codex, you shouldn't take five of them
>And so on
Basically, some communities are already doing it. There was lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth over AoS's "no points" thing, but at the end of the day it just means looking at each other's armies and judging if you think it's a fair matchup, and that's kind of required in 40k now anyway. Removing the excuse of "the rules say this is a balanced match" seems more and more necessary as things go on.
>>44199108
I like my DA assault marines.
They're neat.
Formations offer more ways to build your army, more flexibility and are often very fluffy. Some have annoying taxes, like Daemonkin's Possessed, and the new IG ones are pretty underwhelming, but overall I think they are good for the game and I love 7th edition.
There a list of these? They are kind of cool.
>>44207735
Its still easier when you actually have a base to work from.
>>44198293
No.
Defending formations?
You guys are either retarded, or play some ultra powerful formation which youve convinced yourselves is fluffy.
The over the top buffs, the 'buy X# of this model!', the free units.... Formations are a blight on the game. If you like playing this way, you're new, and stupid.
>>44208042
well meme'd, my friend.
>>44208140
>Everything that I disagree with is a meme
I want this meme to die.
Waitaminute.
>>44208144
The post I was replying to was correctly spelled and punctuated. The poster clearly reads and writes at at least a middle school level. They've clearly got enough braincells that their opinion couldn't possibly be that fucking stupid.
So they have to be memeing us.
>>44208042
BA, GK, SW, AM, CSM, DE, Orks and Nids prove that there is nothing inherently wrong with formations. They all have a bunch of fluffy and/or fun formations (and a couple of questionable stinkers).
It's the post-Necron 7.5e codices that have the absurd formations, and some of them also have absurd balance changes outside of formations.
>>44208225
Oh I see how it works.
Necrons, Eldar, Tau, SkitMech, Space Marines, and Dark Angels prove that there is something inherently wrong with formations.
Theyve shifted the playerbase heavily toward WAAC style play by offering ultra powerful lists to those who value winning over fun. Which has driven a lot of the fun, fluff oriented players away. Leaving behind a shitshow of 'git gud' and 'u mad' type idiots to define the current 40k playerbase.
If they hadnt gone full retard with the formations, we could all coexist in the same general meta. But they went so hard and deep into WAAC territory, thats all thats left. Unless you have one of these magical local metas that successfully reigns it all in. Which does not exist here in Phoenix or LA. Or in Toledo, OH as of summer 2015.
Formations have ruined the game for a lot of people. The people embracing them tend to be rules lawyering assholes that approach an unbalanced, loose ruleset game as if it were game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals.
I still follow a lot of these threads and browse 40k forums out of habit, but Ive packed most of my 40k stuff away, and sold the rest. I sincerely hope HH remains in the hands of the FW studio, but I doubt the suits will let that happen for much longer. Oh well, nothing lasts forever.
>>44204794
Agreed
>>44207256
Our time will come, when those loyalist dogs least expect it.
Just ban flyers and any walker bigger than a dreadnought/defiler. No super heavies either.
Then don't play ridiculously large games. Far better.
>>44200316
They just call them pancakes.
>>44208417
You apparently don't know what the word "inherently" means, and you're delusional if you think formations are the only thing preventing all the codexes from existing in the same general meta.
>>44206934
From what I can tell, they make a 'Mirror' with their shields that allows the weapons in the formation to be bounced off of, allowing them to hit from any angle, thus the 'Ignores Cover' and 'Always hits from rear facing'.
>>44208722
I got the impression it was that they project a bg illusion of the army over on the other side fo the enemy, who all go "OH SHIT how'd they all get behind us?" And turn around like retards
>>44199108
As a Dark Angels player, I agree completely. I have an actual reason to field assault marines now. On top of that, they don't take up a force org slot if I want to go Battle Forged over Unbound due to how detachments work.
>>44208750
That makes sense too.
>>44200316
>Fliers were pretty much invulnerable at this time period, anyone without a plane or AA was stomped
>Tfw i think back to my Heldrake, spawn and Oblits shitting on every Tau gunline they saw
>Tfw my Khorne DK still do the same more or less but sometimes just get stomped flat
40k is a circle, everyone gets their time in the sun but it never lasts.
Perhaps GW's extra fast release times are what pisses us of,
>>44207992
Only if that base makes sense. Only if 10 points of orks is "worth" 10 points of necrons.
Otherwise, >>44207735 might actually be right.
>>44207202
I feel relieved.
>>44208042
Tell it to Raven Guard players. The Talon Strike Force and its formations are things they only dreamed of. Incredibly fluffy, balanced, and it gives them the exact feel of playing a guerrilla and ambush focused space marine chapter.
>>44208417
Any games that could be ruined by formations was already ruined by Wave serpent spam and rerollable 2++.
Also, you are an idiot. The fact that there are overpowered formations don't prove that all formations are inherently overpowered, while the fact that balanced formations exist proves the opposite.
Otherwise I can also use scatbikes to prove that there is something inherently broken with troops.
>>44208417
>Formations have ruined the game for a lot of people. The people embracing them tend to be rules lawyering assholes
Those WAAC min maxing faggots were always there, now they have another tool to fuck you over with. Formations made fucking VESPID viable. The fact that some faggots are abusing formations is expected.
>>44203772
>Play Resistance
>Mfw fantastic models across the entire range
>>44208722
God, that's so fucking stupid
>>44208558
>ban flyers
When will this meme end? Most flyers have a 45 degree LOS and you can literally kill them by standing in their way.
>>44208558
Still doesn't help against scatbikes, grav spam, invisible centurions, decurion wraiths, etc.
>>44211216
I'd honestly like them banned just to pull the game back towards how armies looked before fliers and superheavies.
>>44198253
You know, I actually think it's 7th edition that has the best rules, it was just screwed up (badly) by things like the Decurion and other internally/externally unbalanced bullshit.
We need AoS to do well so then they can bring similar changes to 40k, too. Not saying through away the world/lore, but make Warhammer into the "mass combat role playing game" that it was in its prime and not the watered down wargame with pathetic balance. Because if we have AoS/40k equivalent for that, and then they bring back Warmaster for Fantasy and Epic for 40k which will be the ones that can actually do wargame/tactical movement stuff, then we'll be in a better world where GW would suck less.
>>44214620
The vast majority of the current 40k playerbase is WAAC. Formations, spamming the best units, etc..
What do you think the game will be like when points, guidelines, and other parameters are removed? Suddenly all these retards that GW has distilled the playerbase down to - will start to discuss game balance beforehand? Right.
GW has already created an ultra-competitive environment with the terrible combination of imbalance and way over the top formation buffs.
All that aside - a Conscript wounding a Knight on a 4+ would be a joke.
>>44211216
>literally kill them by standing in their way.
How do you do that?
>>44214620
>wanting AoS changes in 40k
Are you literally retarded? AoS is not a 'role-playing game' by any stretch of the imagination.
And its mechanically awful, no matter how much morons desperately pretend only WAAC guys want point values and actual army composition rules it won't be true.
There aren't people deluded enough to think formations are anything but a transparent attempt to get people to bulk buy models, right?
>>44215483
Dude any rule ever done by GW is just an attempt to make people buy models. The entire game exist to make you buy models. Your point?
>>44215483
Do you see Astra Militarum players rushing out to get 5 Leman Russ or 6 boxes of guardsmen?
Only WAACfags buy this shit.
>>44214620
No
>>44211216
They're outside of the scale 40k should be at.
Bring back Epic and Aeronautica Imperialis, keep flyers there.
Does anybody have that picture of a Sister of Battle standing over Bretonnia's grave?
>>44216218
Specialist Games is confirmed to have rolled a solid 4 on their WBB test, and will return.
>>44217369
Yeah, but that doesn't mean it will actually be good or that they will also fix 40k. It would just be completely out of character for GW.
