Pathfinder General /pfg/
"How fancily does your character dress?" edition
If you are asking for build advice, please mention which third-party books are allowed. If you do not say anything, we will ask (probably about DSP).
Unified /pfg/ link repository:
http://pastebin.com/T5Yknxmz
Dreamscarred Press needs YOUR help in providing feedback for a tiny product (just six pages of rules), Psion Focused Disciplines! You can download it below and comment on it in the Google document.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/iik823
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NjfEMcQW5jgCIGL3--3PzXiuu7ZeYUE0vTWy-F2D1bc/edit?usp=sharing
Previous thread: >>44158196
Good morning Touhoufag.
>>44169698
>Gunslinger
Not fancy, just a duster/leather armor (yes I know it's unrealistic).
>Brawler
Sorta fancy, but more "wrestler's iconic outfit" than "suit and tie."
>Inquisitor
Dressed sharply, but the suit itself isn't overdesigned or anything.
In an uncharacteristic stroke of open-mindedness, my DM is letting me play a Warder, but since I'm brand new to PoW I have a couple of questions.
As a zweihander sentinel, is the only way I can pick up Silver Crane maneuvers through taking the Advanced Study feat? And if I want to switch out readied maneuvers, does it take the same amount of time as it does to initially prepare them?
>tfw no good Hunter Variant that ditches the Animal Companion for something cool
I just don't want to deal with fucking pets in games. It's just a huge excuse for the DM to fuck with you to show how "bad and evil" the BBEG is or to force you on his railroad, or aim for some last hour "feels". Fuck.
>>44169777
There is a trait in Path of War Expanded that allows you to switch out one of your starting disciplines for another. I believe it's called Unorthodox Initiator.
>>44169777
Yes to both.
Just curious, where did the current tiers rating came from?
Very.
>>44169793
Alright, that's good to know, I'll have to look into the PoW:E stuff then.
>>44169698
My current character prefers wearing black on black pattern, long silk robes with black trousers when he is not in armor.
>>44169777
Unorthodox Study is a PoW trait that allows you to switch a chool for another.
It takes 5 minutes of *insert activity*, iirc.
>>44169806
They largely didn't change the documents from the beta test.
Okay that's a lie, as far as I can tell, they didn't at all. Just google Path of War Expanded GiantITP they had the playtest documents on there.
>>44169801
Min/max boards and community dickswinging.
Essentially, the criteria for the tiers wasn't so much as "who can shit out damage", but "who can do the most stuff unchecked" + "does this class do what another class can do, but better".
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job.
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless.
I don't think you need to see write-ups for 5 and 6 to see where it's going.
>>44169801
Study and optimizing tests done by a variety of websites.
/pfg/, I'm doing some further homebrew on a martial class, and with the desire to give it something more than hitting hard and harder, came up with an ability thusly:
*insert name* (ex) - at 4th level, you may, once per battle, exhort all allies to press on the attack, heedless of wounds taken.
As a Swift action, you may heal all allies, including yourself, within 50' radius of yourself Con Mod x Class level hit points. You gain this at 1/day, with an additional usage every 4 levels, up to 5/day.
>is this broken, or useless? I'm trying to expand what the class can do, and this is the first idea I happened upon to blend into control/support for a party
>>44169806
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit
It's called Unorthodox Method
>>44169842
Why some classes are on different tiers depending on build, and some do not? It seems a biased comparisson. If a tier 3 class has a tier 1 build, should not it be a tier 2 class? Since it is a tier 3 that can be better than other tier 3?
My DM does not use 3pp.
Sincerely, how much am i missing?
>>44169874
Those aren't actual tier shifts, those are just examples of the class that can ascend in tiers. Just how an optimized air kineticist or earth kineticist can breach into Tier 4, but this does not make the kineticist a Tier 4 class, because as a whole it sucks anus.
>>44169876
...
...
As a DM.
I have to ask.
What's 3pp?
>>44169874
Why would you average a classes capabilities based on UNOPTIMIZING it? That's stupid.
The classes are ranked based on what they're capable of, fully optimized. It's pointless to measure what the classes can do in the hands of a retard, so the T6 builds are irrelevant.
>>44169698
super cute flan dude
Depends on the character and the setting, but most of them dress modestly, yet sharply.
>>44167687
>>44167774
This does not have anything to do with Pathfinder, but since it was brought up and directed at me, I will field this anyway.
The matter with Shemeshka the arcanaloth (I suppose she would be an "arcanadaemon" in Pathfinder) is more complex than it seems, mostly due to a typographical error in a certain book's listing of her gender, and the fact that all creatures of her kind are hermaphroditic. I cover this here: >>44169494
It is, however, absolutely true that Todd Stewart loves Shemeshka dearly, uses her as his fursona of sorts. Todd Stewart wrote for 3.X planar lore at times and even had sporadic input on 4e planar lore, but he truly flourished with Paizo, as you can see here:
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Todd_Stewart
He had written Pathfinder's original planar sourcebook back in May 2009, which laid the foundation for many of Pathfinder's future planar material. Todd Stewart has not been active at all in more recent years, however.
He *is* quite a talented writer, and certainly very knowledgeable of Planescape while entirely willing to write his own planar lore from scratch, as he did with Horsemen of the Apocalypse for Pathfinder's daemons.
Of course, I am in no position to speak of eccentricities.
>>44168017
That is not the tier list we use.
>>44169777
>>44169793
>>44169806
>>44169807
You could also join the Empyreal Guardians martial tradition:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/empyreal-guardians
As a further alternative, you could be a good-aligned warder (ordained defender):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit
>>44169842
/pfg/'s tier list is decided on by a small group of friends who are only tenuously related to /pfg/, as this post admits:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/43594953/#43597393
I disagree with them on various counts, which I list down here:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/44068936/#44070640
>>44169876
All the balanced martials, and balanced non-hybrid casters, as well as decent psionics and a working kineticist.
>>44169896
Any pathfinder content not published by paizo, aka 3rd party.
>>44169868
Channel Energy? Your version is less feat intensive (1 feat, selective channeling) and better range, but has less healing and uses per day.
>>44169876
>>44169896
3PP = Third Party books/materials/etc. I have no idea why we started calling it 3PP rather than just "Core" or "RAW" and "Third party", but whatever.
>>44169874
>Why some classes are on different tiers depending on build, and some do not?
It usually comes down to archetypes gaining something that increases it's overall power, often being (better) spellcasting, like the Sacred Paladin, or stronger skills/maneuvers, like the Lore Warden Myrmidon Fighter. The class features gained offer stronger options that wholly are better than the ones the stock class comes with, on top of not losing the things that give the class it's initial punch.
A tier 3 class cannot have a tier 1 build, as tier 1 relies on an entire class' possibility.
The tiers are open enough that you can have higher and lower ends. The barbarian is higher in tier 4 than the fighter, for example, and equal to the paladin.
>>44169876
THE PRIZE!
>>44169896
Third party products
>>44169876
It depends, when it comes down to it you're missing out on different styles of play. Ranging from feats that improve quality of life and opening up different ways to access different abilities, to entirely new subsystems that can work alongside existing ones like vancian casting or whatever it is people with 'pools of okay stuff' can do
>>44169896
3rd party publishing. Pathfinder materials not written by paizo. As a new player/DM these are often heresy, but if a player asks you to take a look, use your gut instinct on whether or not you'd allow this stuff. Some of it is grossly overpowered, some of it is just cool, others just different.
>>44169911
Oh, third party. Yeah, I use it in all my games. Sorry about that.
>>44169909
>I disagree with them on various count
Seem to less disagree, and more ask for more nuance in the rating system.
While I don't disagree, I do think it's wholly unneeded unless you are a stickler for details.
That said, I do not think the tier list is the end all, be all, but it is telling that outside a few cases, it has not been discredited and struck down, and remains a valid judgment of the classes in PF.
>>44169909
What the fuck is this shit, Touhoufag? Ignore that and grow a thick skin, don't ruin the thread with that crap.
As a person who has never played pathfinder, what slaptbooks are considered Essential to have the most balanced experience where it's not just a fuckfest of casters being god-tier by the end of it all.
>>44169912
So is it useless, or merely meh standard?
>>44169974
A fair bit of DSP's products, the hybrid classes.
You could really just say "only tier 3/4 classes pls" and call it there.
>>44169909
Could you go into a little detail as to why Hexcraft Magus and Magician Bard are a step up on the other variants? You don't have to go full crunch or anything, but just a brief explanation would be great.
>>44170006
Improved magic, compared to the base classes, without losing anything that would stymie them.
>>44169975
It's worse, but salvageable. What is the flavor of the class? We can maybe suggest a way to buff it and make it good.
>>44169998
Is there not a lack of healing on tier 3/4 only?
And would you allow a tier 3 class that has some tier 2 or 1 builds?
>>44169998
Nifty. Is there a wiki page somewhere with all the various splat listed out with review links?
I know D&D and Dark Heresy have this, but it'd be nice for pathfinder given the sheer amount of shit there is for it. I realize there is the SRD, but that seems to just contain the rules/fluff for everything without giving any opinions on which ones are worthwhile.
>>44169998
How GMs that use the "tier 3 golden rule" handle NPC stats? Specially for published Adventure Paths and Society modules that have tier 1/2 NPCs? Do you re-stat them or shrug and accept that NPCs are different and probably their optimization was shitty anyway.
>>44170037
I initially typed it out as a frontline gatecrasher type based on polearms of various sorts, but then decided that was far too limiting.
So I wanted to add to it support or lockdown capacity to allow it to either lead from the front, or move in fast and hard, keeping dangerous foes at bay with a variety of means while the group either mops up or brings heat.
>>44170040
You seem to not understand how tiers work. Tier assumes all characters have the same amount of optimization into them. Surely the low-op wizard is going to be a blaster, but the martials are going to be grabbing the trap feats and suck with them.
And you don't split classes in more tiers other than by archetypes or a few particular cases that are notably small changes that provide massive power leaps (Such as Paragon Surge)
Otherwise the class belongs to the higher tier.
>>44169698
Wears what resembles silver(mithral) samurai armour, however underneath that he wears what looks to be a black leotard+balaclava smeared with vaseline (thank the DTG GM for alchemical protection vs touch poisons and such). Over that he wears light blue monk robes. Signifying his support for Irori.
>>44170088
Yes, but I see most of the "healer" classes like cleric, druid, oracle on the top tiers. If you ban them, don't healing become rarer for the group?
>>44170088
I'm not sure what makes paragon surge so strong. A couple of 2 point attribute boosts and another feat doesn't seem like much to me.
>>44170053
Here's how it works :
Core T3 and T4 only
All splats suck but DSP
Done!
>>44170040
>Is there not a lack of healing on tier 3/4 only?
No, not really, you just don't have Immortal Party capacity. Even then, the lack of raw power, and the existence of CLW/IHW makes it moot.
>And would you allow a tier 3 class that has some tier 2 or 1 builds?
The tier 3 designation means that it lacks the raw potential to hit tier 1/2 power, period.
>>44170077
Tiers do not denote automatic power, it means potential power. NPCs are rarely built optimized by Paizo.
>>44170053
You can find them with Google, but the problem comes up with author bias a lot of the time. For example, both PoW and 3.5's ToB was shit on by some critics, despite their mechanical soundness, because they break the mold.
>>44169919
3rd party products?
>>44170114
You don't know fuck all about the system, so don't ask stupid questions.
Lots of the remaining classes can heal. Like an Alchemist. Go look at the classes.
>>44170088
If all tiers are compared at best optimization, why some classes on the list are on three different tiers depending on the build and not only on the top one? That is what I do not get.
>>44170080
I think a better support ability with that flavor would be something like Mirror Image that summons clones of you to create a wall of 5 (including you) people in a "phalanx" formation of sort. The clones wouldn't attack or anything but they could give a bonus to bull rushing (additional bonus vs larger creatures) and stop enemy movement through them.
If you wanted to do healing still, a martial built cleric will always be better.
>>44170114
No, they do not, because many of the tier 3 classes have some manner of healing, with the divine casters carrying the full array of healing spells clerics possess.
>>44170137
Do you really want to compare the healing capacity of an Alchemist to a Cleric?
>>44170140
Because the Variants of classes in this game will completely change class features - essentially making it a different class but with the same name.
>>44170161
Do you really want to suck my dick?
The argument here is that there's no healing in 3/4 tiers. There's more than enough healing. It doesn't have to be giga-nigga optimized party-wide chain heals in the middle of combat. Healing DURING combat is usually completely fucking stupid. Healing between combat is what matters, which alchs can do fine.
>>44170144
I am trying to make a tier 3 solid class, and comparing this to a cleric is a bit of a disservice, man.
>>44170161
If there are no tier 1/2 classes? Then yes, the alchemist is capable at healing people.
>>44170186
There is a difference between "no healing" and "adequate healing". To the degree that is expected by module and monster design.
There is always some healing one way or another.
>>44170117
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ox7t?The-Mini-Guide-to-Paragon-Surge
>>44170140
Because it's not a "Build" that makes them go a tier higher, but one/two choices when building said character (Rather than a very specific set of them) that give them a big power bump.
Example: Augmented Psychic Reformation power that bumps Psion and Wilder to Tier 1. The single power choice doesn't particularly limit their build, but makes them significantly more powerful for that individual, small choice.
>>44169967
I disagree that certain archetypes should be marketed as full-fledged tier upgrades. As it currently stands, the magus (hexcrafter), for example, definitely is *not* in tier 2 outright.
Also, the small group behind /pfg/'s tier list has already pushed the sorcerer (psychic bloodline) and the psychic down to tier 2, something I had been clamoring for earlier.
>>44169970
I apologize.
>>44170006
The bard (magician)'s most potent trick is acquiring discounted spells from the summoner spell list as spells known. This is decidedly less powerful if the GM allows only the Unchained summoner's spell list, however.
The magus (hexcrafter) has access to at-will witch hexes. I think that this is a case for a high tier 3, but I do not believe this makes them deserve tier 2 at all.
This is far from my area of expertise (most mechanical matters in Pathfinder are), so take this with a grain of metaphorical salt.
>>44170088
>>44170140
Tiers measure optimization *ceiling*, to my knowledge. It is impossible to measure "average optimization," a uselessly nebulous term.
In particular, tier 2 classes have the widest rift between optimization ceiling and optimization floor. A haphazardly constructed sorcerer or oracle can be more worthless than even a non-archetyped fighter.
Wereraptor how?
(no 3pp yet. I'm holding out for PoW:E, because errata and goodies in one book)
>>44170187
Then compare it to Warpriest, which is just a terrible cleric, and you got OK healing for your tier.
>>44170241
If your GM changes the rules to make a class weak then that's house rule and not the purview of a static tier list based on RAW. It says any arcane casting class, Summoner is any arcane casting class. Playing a Summoner is illegal in PFS but looking at its spell list is not. Not that PFS defines the tier list anyhow since PFS isn't RAW, just a specific system of people who play Pathfinder with certain rules and restrictions.
Magician is certainly mid to weak Tier 2 by the rules it sets out.
The Magus argument is fine, it's weak tier 2 or top tier 3. The difference is miniscule, really, and I'd ere on the side of caution and put it in 2.
>>44170318
Are Hexes even that good? I just take Fly normally and call it a day.
>>44169698
I'm playing an alchemist with a Charisma of 7. He wears robes covered in stains and chemical burns, and he smells like piss and burnt hair.
>>44170337
>at-will sleep with no HD limit
>Beast Shape II at-will
>motherfucking grand hexes
>agony
>>44170318
Tier 2 is distinguished by spells such as Plane Shift, Teleport, the Planar Ally/Binding line, the Create Demiplane line, and the Summon Monster line being available at the earliest possible levels for those spells.
What does the hexcrafter archetype do to hold a metaphorical candle to such spells?
>>44170391
Those would be excellent and qualify the hexcrafter archetype for high tier 3, but I do not see the case for tier 2.
>>44170364
Stop playing a self-insert
>player uses familiar to do touch attacks against monsters
>get mad when the monsters attack of opportunity kills their familiar
This happens way too much, why do people keep doing this?
If you reanimate a corpse as a Zombie, do the bonus HD it gains from being a big-ass creature count against your HD limit?
>>44170412
Because it says they can, expecting they can without repercussions due to the book giving it to them.
Just a matter of the book fucking them over.
How well is Numenera doing? I never see anyone talk about it apart from Monte Cook in my
>>44170404
>Tier 2 is distinguished by spells such as Plane Shift, Teleport, the Planar Ally/Binding line, the Create Demiplane line, and the Summon Monster line being available at the earliest possible levels for those spells.
No it's not
Look you goddamned nigger, you admit you don't understand the mechanical areas of pathfinder, then you want your stupid opinion on the mechanical areas of pathfinder to be accepted as gospel truth. Do you understand why we dislike you?
Also for fucks sake, the entire community of /pfg/, the paizo forums and GitP forums is not a small group of friends. The small group is the one that mantains the list updated, but the list is created by the consensus of the community.
>>44170494
Stop bullying tohoanon.
>>44170114
Cleric, druid and oracle are not "healer" classes. They're do-everything classes - that's why they're high-tier. Vitalist is a healer/buffer class, and it's Tier 3.
Most healing spells are so weak that casting them in-combat is a waste of an action, since your party would take less damage if you spent your turn killing the enemy faster (notable exceptions are Heal, Mass Heal, and some resurrection spells). For out-of-combat healing your best option is wands of Cure Light Wounds or Infernal Healing, and anyone with ranks in Use Magic Device can use those.
What feat would be better for the 1st level eidolon, focused purely on skills? For now - it's Disable device, Perception and Stealth skills.
Better than Skill Focus, that is.
>>44170502
Never, 2hoanon deserves bullying.
>>44170404
The Magus already has the built in ability to add Teleport and some binding stuff via Greater Spell Access and/or Spell Blending. Admittedly, Plane Shift is out which is why it skates in at the top of tier 3 as it's just has worse potential than a Sorcerer (limited access to game changing spells, but still some access).
Hexcrafter just adds a unique thing to Magus that lots of other classes can't replicate and that change the scope of many encounters or situations. Hexes are really good and really neat and kind of unique in a lot of ways.
It doesn't break the game wide open, which is why it's the bottom of the barrel tier 2.
>>44170535
No one DESERVES bullying.
If someone genuinely sharing their opinion or trying to help is mistaken, it's alright to explain to them that they are wrong, but you shouldn't say stuff like "this is why everyone dislikes you." That's just rude, uncalled for, and adds nothing to the discussion.
Also, tiers are for queers. Ban Vancian casting classes and run DSP/SoP + Pact Magic to solve all issues.
>>44170539
I thought tier 2 required being able to break the game wide open, just not a different version of breaking the game open each day.
>>44170494
>you admit you don't understand the mechanical areas of pathfinder
You and I both know that he's being modest. He admits that he's not the authority on the topic because maybe there's some minor nuances or weird contradiction in RAW somewhere, but his math is always sound and I wager he spends more time looking at the numbers than you do.
Hell, I have players that've been in PF campaigns for over a year who don't know the math as well as he does.
>>44170512
Eh, Wizards do everything. Clerics/Oracles do lots of things but often have limitations Wizards don't (weaker top end spell list, Miracle typically having a built in "can't do that, your deity/philosophically aligned power source wouldn't like it" caveat which weakens efficacy).
>>44170434
Guuuuuuuuys, this is important, please help.
>>44169777
As a Zweihander Sentinel you have two options:
1. The Unorthodox Method trait from Path of War: Expanded allows you to trade one of your known disciplines for a different discipline of your choice.
2. The Empyreal Guardians Martial Tradition has the ability to trade one of your known disciplines for access to Silver Crane but comes with roleplaying restrictions and expectations.
Is there an updated version of Getting X to Y doc? This one seems outdated.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o91Z-s0R7Vf2Ujj1lFqGC5W--9JOyU0I6uC9XRIR5to/edit?pli=1
>>44170494
>Tier 2:
>Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.
In theory, anyone who can bring to bear this level of power would qualify for tier 2. However, under the /pfg/ tier list's logic, that level of power more or less requires spells like Plane Shift, Teleport, the Planar Ally/Binding line, the Create Demiplane line, and the Summon Monster line.
(I think that the Raise Dead line and certain divination spells would count under this as well.)
Why do you think all full casters are slotted into tier 1 and 2 by default? It is not because of their ability to cast Glitterdust, that is for sure.
>but the list is created by the consensus of the community.
The tier list council's assessment is what dictates the tier list. They take the words of the community into account, but as a secondary source. This has been outright stated:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/43594953/#43597393
>1. There is more than just me who makes the decisions. Think of it like a council almost wherein each of the individuals has a fair wealth of experience ranging from AD&D in its heyday to theoretical optimization from the various message boards.
>2. We do take /tg/'s arguments and stances into consideration - even changing things as the need presents itself. Sometimes this is faster for some movements than others.
>>44170584
You could also stack the Ordained Defender Archetype and get the discipline from there.
>>44170434
Yeah, they're part of the zombies hit dice so they count against your limit.
>>44170571
If you're just gonna ban Vancian, it's prolly better to just play another system instead.
>>44170622
Thanks, guy!
>>44170630
I see no issue with completely replacing vancian casting with DSP's psionics, personally. Splashing in Pact Magic and SoP like he suggested is nice for player options. The game becomes way more balanced very quickly, that way.
>>44170572
This is where I get a bit philosophical.
Would you put a Wizard who never gets past level 12/13 in Tier 1 or 2? Because that's basically where a Magus caps out. I'm certain you can break the game with just sixth level wizard spells. But are you seriously going to put this wizard ripoff Magus, who's burnt his arcanas pretending to be a wizard and getting a d8 hitdie in exchange, in the same category as a Sorcerer who's gonna cast Wish someday?
I think that's where the problem arises. A Magus *can* break the game. They're the best of tier 3 when it comes to build ceiling. And Hexcrafter is clearly a better version of Magus with more options that even Wizards can't always emulate, so it got bumped up.
>>44170596
I couldn't remember off hand if those two archetypes stacked or not so I didn't mention it.
Ordained Defender is not my favorite way of adding Silver Crane to the Warder anyway. I think that pulling the focus away from INT costs the class too much of the flavor I really enjoy about the Warder.
>>44169904
This is why there's exceptions listed in higher tiers. The class as a whole cannot attain those pinnacles, but certain specific (generally requires archetypes or a very specific combo) setups can do it.
The easiest way to understand is 'by role' really: If damage were a thing in the tiers (it mostly isn't except below tier 4 where "can't do your own damn job" often includes the damage dealing classes not being all that damaging) then you could understand that "melee" and "ranged" of a certain class have a very different optimization potential, right?
It's the same with things like the Paragon Surge Oracle and whatnot: Sometimes it's a matter of "IF X Optional Rule" or "If Y specific feat interpretation" or "If Z particular archetype and equipment".
A Lore Warden fighter is NOT a Tower Shield Specialist is NOT a Pack Mule, for example.
Those exceptions are listed as a heads up, that while the class can't pull it off, IF you do all the exactly right combos (that's kind of a step beyond just fully optimizing) you can be on the low end of the next tier up.
>>44170539
>>44170669
The magus certainly has shades of access to the spells that qualify a character for tier 2, but despite that, it is generally agreed upon that the magus is tier 3.
The hexcrafter archetype is most certainly a direct upgrade to the magus, but it is a *sideways* upgrade. It does not confer more raw power than the magus already has; it adds potent options, but none of those options are any more game-breaking than what the magus already has.
That is why I think that the magus (hexcrafter) is merely a very high tier 3 archetype. Tier 2 requires raw *power*.
Am I mistaken on what qualifies a character for tier 2 here?
>Party is high enough level where GM can justify encounters where enemies specifically bring gear to counter us
Oh, god, I love this so much.
The Summoner's summons kept getting Alter Summoned Monster'd into fucking dogs and squirrels and shit, and the Barbarian kept eating Humanbane arrows all fight.
I can't wait to see what's in store next.
>>44170517
Depends on the party composition. Really I'd just make a big stupid fighter while you cast spells. That is just one of the obvious reasons why the summoner is actually a viable class, rather than it being outclassed by the wizard who is a summoning specialist with the Acadamae Graduate feat. Otherwise you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot m8.
Also the Oracle is arguably one of the obvious reasons why the tier list is such a stupid and unhelpful metric of how good a class is. Simply because they have so many options with their mysteries that "the most optimized" Oracle is a vague term. The Oracle is a shit ton more linear than a cleric is, but there simply isn't a whole lot of versatile cleric spells, and if you do choose them over the more buffy or healing aspects of the cleric spell-list, then you are missing out on that. Really the cleric spell-list has spells that are largely viable in special situations. Such as Zone of Truth, Protection from Alignment, the various Remove spells that seriously hamper the Oracle. Sorcerers get off rather okay in this regard, simply because they have a better spell list that have encounter fucking spells that they can spontaneously cast. The cleric spell list is largely just good for the many spells that answer to specific situations that isn't related to the combat minigame at least. So, how would this rank the oracle? Granted this problem is weaker later on as good spells at higher levels are lesser in quantity and so choice isn't as stingy.
Still, the fact that the Sorcerer gets off lighter from being less versatile is simply down to what spell list they have available.
In fact, the vast majority of pathfinder classes always seemed to be rather pointless with very confused themes to me. Not that they don't bring anything of value, but I simply have to ask is why? Why does the Warpriest, Hunter, Slayer, Witch, Arcanist, Bloodrager, Brawler, Investigator, Swashbuckler even need to exist?
>>44170494
You are just buttmad because he is right more often than not, and most of the "official" well-established oppinions about tiers and shit are nothing more than a circlejerk of people who don't know the difference between 3.5 and PF and just copied the tier list.
>>44170241
>Tiers measure optimization *ceiling*, to my knowledge. It is impossible to measure "average optimization," a uselessly nebulous term.
THANK YOU
>>44170751
All those classes are alternatives to the core ones, combining motes of other classes into one, with varying success.
I heard that it's possible use Martial Master fighter archetype for having any skill maxed as a move action by taking Martial Focus and Advanced Weapon Training with Versatile Training option.
Looks like it's not: Martial Focus counts as weapon training only for weapon mastery feats, and Advanced Weapon Training isn't one.
I am sad.
>>44170732
I wouldn't qualify Hexcrafter as a sideways upgrade. Maybe not good enough for tier 2? Sure. But there's rankings within the tiers even then.
Like I said, there's an argument either way on the Magus but there shouldn't be an argument on the Magician Bard.
>>44170770
You really don't get to talk. One build does not set the value of an entire class, only that build. Whining because your singular "effective" build does 20% less damage than comparable damage dealers isn't going to change the fact that 90% of all the Kineticist's options are shit.
All you did was polish a turd, it still stinks.
>>44170241
>>44170770
I'm sorry you had to find out you were wrong this way, 2huposter.
What needs to happen with the tier list is simple:
Break each tier into High Medium and Low.
For example, Low Tier 1 is still a lot stronger than High Tier 2, but High Tier 1 shits all over both of them. Make sense?
>>44170824
No. I just demonstrated that tiers are based on the feefees of whoever made them. Stinky turds get tier 4 of they can meet the description.
>>44170794
I'm specifically talking about the mechanics. They provide something of little value because the people at Paizo have no understanding of how the classes that they combine work (Warpriest, Hunter, Swashbuckler), exist to fulfill a niche that is a tad bit specific and honestly wouldn't warrant a class for them. (Brawler, Investigator, Witch) or is something brain meltingly stupid that I have no idea why it even exists. (Non-Psychic Occult Adventure classes, Bloodrager)
P.S. Don't get me wrong about the psychic. It's superflous, but it could be something neat as a concept that is away from psionics specifically.
>>44170849
>let's did the tier list by tripling the number of tiers
Good god why.
How about we just trash it and give each class a paragraph explaining what it can do well?
>>44170704
I personally think that in mechanical terms, Wisdom is a much better ability score for a warder than Intelligence.
The warder is the designated defender, the one who will be drawing the most fire, and having a sturdy Will save is key to that. (I do not believe a middling Wisdom and a good Will save progression is sufficient for a dedicated defender.)
The warder lacks the class skills to make an especially good use of Intelligence, and domains and inquisitions open up many intriguing builds for a warder.
>>44170820
What makes you say that the hexcrafter is not merely a sideways upgrade?
I agree with you on that count regarding the bard (magician), although it is still only low tier 2 at the very most. Losing Inspire Courage and Versatile Performance sting quite a bit.
>>44170849
That is exactly what I suggested in this post: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/44068936/#44070640
Rather than "high, medium, low" for each tier, however, I think that it might be more practical to introduce a category for "borderline" builds that straddle two tiers. The magus (hexcrafter), for instance, could fit into the border between tier 2 and tier 3.
>>44170893
>give each class a paragraph explaining what it can do well?
>Swashbuckler
This class is great to give to NPC companions that are meant to die as part of showing off how strong the enemy is! It's also a viable choice for comedic relief NPCs!
>>44170878
Warpriest is awesome. The swift action self buff us perfect for those who want to wreck face with their god's blessing.
Is there any way to acquire Nomad's Step, or a similar ability, aside from a Psion and the boots?
Is there any sort of Psion initiator?
Is there a way to advance Nomad's Step if you can find it, other than Psion?
>>44170849
Actually the first four, odds and evens are the power split.
Tier 1 is about as strong as Tier 2. The main difference is that Tier 1 can swap their toys around all the time, whereas for the most part Tier 2 picks its toys once and then is stuck with them. They're the same (wish, mircale, true resurrection, astral seeds, demiplanes, etc etc etc) Toys, but Tier 1 can effectively have all of them anytime, rather than just a handful.
Tier 3? Tier 3 is a lot more like a T1: It has a LOT more toys usually to work with than T4, but what it lacks vs T1/2 is POWER. T3 does NOT have access to level 9 spells. T3 does NOT get to create motherfucking UNIVERSES AT A FUCKING WHIM. T3 can hope for a ring of wishes, but cannot, himself, make one or ever just cast wish the way someone casts motherfucking fireball.
T4? T4 has less toys still. Often as much POWER (many are both partial casters) though.
Power falls again at 5 and 6.
>>44170878
Like I said, varying degrees of success.
>>44170893
That is wholly opaque in terms of explaining it's relative strength compared to the setting and other classes, that's why. It would be another Ivory Tower issue, where "experienced" players would be the ones to know what is good and not.
>>44170915
Grow up. It can deal on damage when full attacking in melee. Can trade hits with some nasty monsters. Not much else though as it gets swift action starved easily.
>>44170950
>Grow up.
Nigger, the class is horrible and you might as well kill yourself if you actually make the horrible mistake of playing one in a campaign.
A non-archetype Fighter outperforms this shitheap, and that's saying a lot.
>>44170974
You aren't wrong. You just aren't useful. WHY the class is bad is more important.
>>44171000
Who fucking cares? The class is beyond salvation. Any attempt to improve it will just butt in on another class's territory. Literally just slap the few good things it gets as an archetype onto something else and throw the base class into the trash where it belongs.
>>44170751
>Depends on the party composition. Really I'd just make a big stupid fighter while you cast spells. That is just one of the obvious reasons why the summoner is actually a viable class, rather than it being outclassed by the wizard who is a summoning specialist with the Acadamae Graduate feat. Otherwise you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot m8.
So, "eidolon for skills, summons for battle" just doesn't work?
>>44170899
>I personally think that in mechanical terms, Wisdom is a much better ability score for a warder than Intelligence
If all you value is core numbers then possibly. I prefer intelligence for access to more skill points so that I can do more outside of combat. 4+INT skill points is barely enough to keep your discipline skills maxed unless you invest in extra INT, which the base warder encourages you to do.
>The warder is the designated defender, the one who will be drawing the most fire, and having a sturdy Will save is key to that. (I do not believe a middling Wisdom and a good Will save progression is sufficient for a dedicated defender.)
Hence why my preferred method is to use the Empyreal Guardians. Their Alleigance benefit nets them an effective +4 vs. mind affecting and charm spells.
>The warder lacks the class skills to make an especially good use of Intelligence
On this point I disagree. Class skills is merely a +3 bonus. An INT warder can easily support the full breadth of knowledge skills without any of them getting that +3 bonus, and still have the skill points necessary to keep the class skills that matter (Discipline Skills) maxed. A WIS warder simply doesn't have the points budget to perform at that level with their skills.
Ultimately, I consider WIS vs. INT to be a wash because I prefer to play the "Genius Bruiser" archetype, which an INT Warder fulfills much better than a WIS warder, while also having generally more varied options for backstory since they're not tied to domain concepts.
>>44171008
Correct.
>>44170932
You can actually make a magic item without knowing the spell.
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet."
It just raises the DC of the spellcraft check by 5 for each spell in the spell creation recipe that you don't know, so some shitty bard could make a ring of three wishes with a high enough spellcraft, funny as it is.
>>44171008
Daring Champion, until it got hit with the nerf bat.
>>44171008
So that someone who reads the tier guide will know that it it's bad, and why? What is the problem?
>>44169909
I repeat.
Who the fuck cares about some inactive writer's fursona, unless you're specifically bringing it up to cause butthurt?
Touhoufag, go and stay gone.
>>44170040
>Is there not a lack of healing on tier 3/4 only?
Vitalist is allegedly tier 3.
>>44171071
What happened to Daring Champion?
>>44170878
>Bloodrager
>stupid
>Mesmerist
>stupid
>Spiritualist
>stupid
How?
Blockbuster Wizard advice?
Level 1: Spell Specialization Burning Hands
Level 3: Intensified Spell
Level 5: Spell Focus
Level 7: Empower Spell
Does this sound alright?
>>44171097
So is a wand of cure light wounds.
>>44171119
>bloodrager
>not stupid
Just look at the fucking name kohai. Then look at everything else.
>>44171017
It's just suboptimal. Considering that your probably hanging out with basket weavers, you could be doing a lot worse off. So you go do you man. It probably wouldn't be terrible as long as you remember that Summons are limited in number, and that you can't have both out at the same time.
>>44171126
Spell tattoo. Spell specialization
>>44171179
> Considering that your probably hanging out with basket weavers
Well, I know party composition - it's hunter, paladin and magus. Is it what you meant or not - I do not know.
>>44171114
It lost Opportune Parry and Riposte, like all the other Swashbuckler derivatives.
>>44171037
Intelligence is better for classes with wider nets of class skills, such as the harbinger, which has a very generous skill list and even Knowledge (all).
A warden (ordained defender) could take another, potentially more beneficial martial tradition and gain *that* tradition's discipline and tradition benefit on top of natively having Silver Crane.
What happens to an ordained defender who changes in their moral alignment axis? Must they suddenly retrain away all of their Silver Crane/Eternal Guardian/Black Seraph maneuvers and stances?
>>44170932
It could perhaps be a good idea to reorganize the tier list into six categories that are *not* named based on numbers. For instance:
- High Power and High Flexibility (formerly known as tier 1)
- High Power and Medium Flexibility (formerly known as tier 2)
- Medium Power and High Flexibility (formerly known as tier 3)
What could tiers 4, 5, and 6 be renamed?
>>44171017
"Eidolon for skills, summons for battle" tends to be more of the purview of the Master Summoner archetype.
>>44171082
Someone else had brought it up in the previous thread and directed it towards me.
>>44171238
Oh right, Paizo hates fun.
>>44171234
I have a massive level of antipathy with the hunter, but you shouldn't have too much of an issue. Depending on what level you are. Just tell the Hunter to get the trapfinder trait.
>>44171253
>What could tiers 4, 5, and 6 be renamed?
Medium power, medium flexibility
shit
shittier shit
>>44171222
When though?
>>44171253
I still don't get why you think it was a thing worthy of posting at all, other than to get a reaction out of 4chan, but that's not germane to this thread.
>>44171253
Tier 4: Pure Martials
Tier 5: Bad Martials
Tier 6: NPC
>>44171270
> I have a massive level of antipathy with the hunter
Why? And what should I know beforehand about hunters?
>>44171253
> "Eidolon for skills, summons for battle" tends to be more of the purview of the Master Summoner archetype.
How would you rate Master Summoner vs Regular Summoner then? Considering, that Master is going for "eidolon for skills" and regular - for "eidolon is a fighter"?
>>44171222
Early. Be human if you can. Intensify isn't needed until level 9
What's the most high powered class that the GM has to go through absurd and obvious methods to fuck with?
Please note that I ask this out of fun and not mean spiritedness; my DM always likes to fuck with us and we take it with a laugh usually, but he always steals spellbooks from wizards, or magic items that martials need, etc.
What is the most self empowred class not relying on books/gods/gear? Druid?
Say I wanted to make a character whose whole obsession was collecting/scavenging for garbage. What would be the best build mechanically to represent this?
>>44169874
It isn't builds, it's archetypes. Builds include feats, spell selection, and other shit. Tiers are baseline power of a class sans-optimization.
>>44171327
Hunters are just "Druids are too good, and Rangers are too shitty, so lets staple Druid powers on a Ranger until they're juuuust right".
I kinda love it, honestly. A lot of people hate it for exactly the same reasons.
>>44171339
Hey buildposter, your thoughts on Pactsworn Knight?
>>44171350
Druid and cleric.
Hell, you don't actually need your holy symbol for most spells.
>>44171327
Master Summoner is significantly more powerful than Regular Summoner in combat but if someone tries to bring that shit to your table to smack the shit out of them and tell them to leave because, no matter how good they are, they are almost certainly doubling or tripling the time it's gonna take to finish a combat encounter based on their bullshit.
>>44169904
No, they aren't. If tiers were at full-optimization, then it'd end up considerably different.
>>44171350
Druids can fall, I would recommend Sorcerer.
>>44171359
Halfling Rogue with the well prepared feat.
>>44171359
Savage Technologist.
Get junk, make awesome.
>>44171395
>Druids can fall
It's actually sorta difficult to put that position to Druids, really.
>>44171372
Pathfinder nerfed druids into one or two viable play styles. Use spells for buffing and utilities and focus on wildshaping, or focus on spellcasting. Really the druid isn't something I'd say is "Too good".
>>44171414
Just something to keep in mind really, he may try to dick you over that way.
>>44171372
So are they are middle ground between druids and rangers? What to hate than?
>>44171382
It's PBP, so time doesn't matter. Otherwise I would not even consider this archetype.
>>44171425
Yeah, they sure did nerf druids... all the way into Tier 1.
Those bastards!
Wildshaping is for furfags. SPELLCASTING
SPELLS
P
E
L
L
S
>>44171285
"Medium power, medium flexibility" does not quite encapsulate this definition:
>Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.
At the same time, it is not worth splitting up the tier currently known as "tier 4" for.
>>44171318
I had originally posted it in a Planescape thread; someone else had copied and pasted it over. I do sincerely appreciate the works of Todd Stewart and like his writing; I use several of his lore pieces in my own campaign, particularly his Dragon Magazine article on the gate-town of Ecstasy. I find his eccentricities both unsettling and fascinating, but of course, I am not innocent in that regard either.
>>44171320
The tier currently known as "tier 4" contains a few spellcasters, namely, the adept, the bloodrager, the medium, the paladin, and the ranger. On the Dreamscarred Press side, the daevic is a "spellcaster" in a way, and the marksman is an actual manifester.
I would call Spheres of Power's armorist and mageknight high tier 4 at best, short of certain archetypes.
>>44171327
The Master Summoner is a very high tier 2 class due to its potential to solve just about every problem by summoning the right hordes of monsters for the job. It helps that its eidolon can serve as a noncombat skill monkey as well.
>>44170893
Because every time that people try to do that, namely in the actual fucking class descriptions, it fails. Because doing it like that means that it's done in a vacuum. The tier list does it as a comparison to the other classes available.
>>44171442
They shouldn't really exist from a flavor standpoint.
It's basically a Ranger that loses out on completely useless Ranger shit and just gets better Druidic caster progression. People hate it for making Rangers essentially even more useless and redundant at their own job.
>>44171442
>PBP
>Pathfinder
>>44171442
oops, then*
>>44171446
> It helps that its eidolon can serve as a noncombat skill monkey as well.
Well, it's not very good skillmonkey, t b h - not so many skill points or evo-points.
So, if you place MS on high t2, regular then on t3 for you, right?
>>44171360
>>44171386
It is absolutely impossible to measure "average optimization." Is "average optimization" the wizard who picks out spells like Glitterdust and Create Pit, or is it the wizard who tries to be a blaster?
The tier list is a set of indicators of optimization *ceiling* (sans theoretical optimization, which Pathfinder is relatively lacking in), because that is something that can be gauged more accurately by those with a reasonable degree of system mastery.
"Optimization ceiling sans theoretical optimization" is not especially hard to decide on, but "average optimization" is, and that is why the latter is useless to take into consideration.
>>44171477
The Skilled evolution can help solve that.
I would place the master summoner in very high tier 2 and the regular summoner in mid-high tier 2.
>>44171445
What I'm saying is that due to the way that wildshaping works in pafthfinder. Physical stats matter if you want to shapeshift. Besides you aren't turning into an anthropomorphic animal, you're turning into an actual animal that can't even talk.
Second of all
>tiers
>>44171442
It's the same as being the middle-ground between a viable class and a whole lot of nothing.
>>44171446
I would consider Paladin/Bloodrager/Ranger to be pure martials since the spells are really just icing and not something anyone goes our of their way to build towards. You go those classes to smash shit, not be a caster.
>>44171339
Brewers guide seems pretty adamant on going Elf though?
>>44171510
>wahhh, my Druid can't be godlike at both having full caster progression *AND* full shapeshifting abilities!
He's literally godlike when speccing in either one of those things, to the point where he completely blows the fuck out most other non-full caster classes.
Druids are still T1.
>>44170926
PSION or Wilder no, but just about every other psionic class has an initiator format somewhere.
Warsoul (top quality), Path Walker, Initiator's Soul, etc.
Question:
I remember reading somewhere that a half-something (half-elves, half-orcs) can use the human FCBs as well as their own. Is that true?
>>44171541
Piss off you fucking gobshite shit stain batch of useless crusty semen.
I'm saying that the pathfinder druid is reasonable you nincompoop.
>>44171527
Elf has better racial stuff, but that extra early feat is worth it. Spell spec + tattoo is +3 cl. Dropping extra dice of damage is great at Lower levels.
>>44171552
Both half elves and half orcs.
>>44171504
>>44171382
So, if we return to my original question - what would be a good 1st level skilled eidolon?
Let's say - it's Master Summoner, and eidolon focusing on three skills - perception, disable device and stealth.
I'll just leave this here
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459141-Optimization-and-Tiers-The-Tier-System-Expanded
>>44171374
Not familiar with it, and won't have time to look it over for a bit.
>>44171605
good "feat for eidolon", I mean
>>44171595
hm.. what about half-giant?
>>44171583
>T1
>Reasonable
Pick one.
It's totally fucking broken.
>>44171650
I dont think they have the "X blood" racial trait that lets them count as humans for race.
Here's how I handle the tier problem in my games:
You remember Race Points or WHATEVER the fuck RP stands for in non-standard races?
I have those for classes.
I call 'em Power Ranks.
Each level you get in a class gives you that class' Power Ranks. For example, a Wizard gives you 10 Power Ranks per level, whereas a Fighter gives you 2.
Power Ranks have the following uses:
>The less Power Ranks you have, the more gear you get.
This means the WBL is fucked and thrown out the window, yes. That said, gear also has Power Ranks, albeit not a whole lot of 'em unless it's an artifact or something.
>Enemies with no specific agenda will focus on the PCs with higher Power Ranks first
This means the Wizard will get an Elfbane Phase Locking dagger shoved up his ass every other encounter. It's logical to take out the strongest enemies first, right?
>Characters with a shitload of Power Ranks incur encounters specifically designed to try and kill them and only them
Just last night, the combat we had was nothing but people with equipment specifically geared to shit on the party Wizard, and the rest of the party got to shine as heroes by saving his ass three whole times.
Now, you might think "Wow, it sounds like playing a Tier 1 class in your games is actually really shit, why would I do that?" Well, you still get to do all the fuckin' bullshit your class gets to do. It's just that the world won't let you walk all over it unlike it would normally.
Been working alright for me.
>>44171668
Before level 13? I don't think it is. No one actually plays at higher levels anyways.
>>44171672
Yeah, they do
That trait is what you wanna look for.
Something has it, you're golden on the racials and FCBs
>>44171668
You're going to need a better argument than just pointing out to a billboard and say "this class is toots brokens!!!" without fucking understanding anything at all. Considering that people like you will have a happy life or at least a life that isn't full of misery and torment is something that is truly unjust in this world. If you do fall into troubles, then at least you can know that one person out there desires for your life to end, and that your potential suicide would please someone. At the very least make sure that if you couldn't please a woman, then you could at least make an anon on the internet feel at least a little bit secure that the world that they live in isn't such a terrible shithole. You fucking miserable piece of cow urine.
>>44171253
The functional difference between a maxed non-class skill and a maxed class skill is 3 points. That's really all there is to it. So no, Intelligence is not significantly better for a class with more class skills.
>>44171679
>I dislike powerful classes so I use Dm fiat to punish them for having the audacity to want to play a certain class
You seem like a fun DM
>>44171714
>MY PET CLASS ISN'T BROKEN
>FULL CASTER PROGRESSION AND THE ABILITY TO DO WHATEVER I WANT IS BALANCED
>IT'S FINE
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEE I HATE YOU PLEASE DIE
Hahahahahaha nigga
Hahahaha man
Do you get mad at the Tier Lists in all the RPG forums that exist for Pathfinder and screech at them like a retard there too? Please chronicle your exploits in a single document so that I can laugh at them.
>>44171741
Oh, I totally make every attempt to ensure the player has no fun whatsoever.
The things I have happen to them make no logical sense and I do it just to spite the player for choosing a class I dislike.
Yepso.
>>44171679
Your Wizard is just being a little bitch then. He needs to plan for higher levels of cockfuckery is all.
>>44171763
I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but that sounds like the case exactly.
>>44171763
Given that that's literally what you said you do, yeah, that seems to be the case.
>>44171714
If this is how mad you get when someone states a simple fact how fucking butthurt would you become if you joined a game and the GM told you that you can't even pick that class because he thinks it's an OP piece of shit?
>>44171763
You admitted that you specifically target those players, I am sure everyone loves hearing "Because you're the wizard I am going to target you and build the world against you"
>>44171774
This is exactly the point of the system.
He has to expend resources into not getting absolutely fucked sideways. Normally, the wizard in a regular party just needs Boots of Levitate and MAYBE a ring of invisibility or something like that. That's it, he's set forever.
is there a way to *gain* a subtype? Like by a character trait, or feat?
>>44171583
>>44171714
You know that that guy didn't put Druid on the T1 list by himself, right? Literally everyone agrees that Druid is a T1 class, and T1 classes are broken. I cannot believe how unbelievably ass-apocalypsed you are over this. Do you think everyone voted Druid onto the list out of spite?
Do we all have some ulterior motives against Druids?
Druids are T1 regardless of you throwing a fit like an autistic little manchild. You can play a Hunter, but elsewise fuck off.
>>44171760
Do you even know what the fuck Pathfinder's wildshape ability work? Being able to fly as an animal is nice as a spell focused caster, but unlike in 3.5 you don't replace your physical stats, the animal shape line just transforms you into an animal. You have to specifically build yourself around that. So the Druid is split off into two primary builds. With maybe a third one focusing on buffing up their animal companion, but that is a side job.
Maybe if you actually provided a fucking argument then you'd realize that you were full of shit. You don't take into account levels, what is the appropriate abilities to have at the level that you are on. Instead you believe that all theoretical builds are at level 20, and then call something over powered because they are capable of doing something outside of full attacking okay-ishly or doing stupid levels of damage if you are an ubercharger. So please. Go on fuccboi.
>>44171806
What's so wrong about that, though?
The system he described has some merit, I'll admit.
Think about it from the perspective of the bad guys.
If the annoying assholes that keep fucking up your plans CLEARLY have a very powerful Wizard, why the fuck would you NOT get gear specifically to shit on him? Why the fuck would you NOT kidnap his family and attempt to assassinate him? Do the enemies in everyone else's campaigns have 5 INT? While I wouldn't go so far as to make it an actual subsystem, having the enemies actually gear against the party is something everyone should be doing, and it really helps balance out the party when the wizard's shit keeps getting dispelled in one encounter. The fighter gets to actually fucking do something because the wizard can't just cast two spells and end the fight, etc.
>>44171504
>The tier list is a set of indicators of optimization *ceiling* (sans theoretical optimization, which Pathfinder is relatively lacking in), because that is something that can be gauged more accurately by those with a reasonable degree of system mastery.
Not according to the original creator, it isn't.
>>44171822
Lemme tell you something about druids....
>>44171821
bloodforge
>>44171821
There's a Bloodforge feat that allows you to do so.
>>44171859
... okay, I'll look for the book, but In the meantime... mind elaborating?
>>44171850
This.
I swear there used to be a list of scenarios that JaronK used to test each class for its tier. I know one of them was "Slay a dragon" and another was "Cross a pit" but I can't find that anywhere.
>>44171886
By those scenarios, how the fuck is any martial not in the same tier as Commoner? Did they allow magic items?
>>44171591
I already have Spell specialization at lvl 1, but where is this Tattoo coming from? I can't find it.
>>44171871
Mixed blood. Speaking of... Doesn't that, by virtue of you now being that subtype, mean that if you select, say, Air, you now also automatically have a flyspeed?
>Air Subtype: Air creatures always have fly speeds and usually have perfect maneuverability. Air creatures treat Fly as a class skill.
>>44171904
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/mages-tattoo
>>44171830
Please tell me why a Druid ISN'T T1.
Is it because you're a furry and you're mad that shifting isn't AS broken?
>>44171871
>>44171915
Thank ye both.
Think I'll grab just above it (powerful build) while I'm at it, too.
Pic disgustingly related.
>>44171842
Because it's not fun to be singled out and targeted by the DM. If your Fighter cleaves through 3 Guys while the Wizard casts haste does that mean the enemies should target the Wizard? The system is literally slapping martials in the face by saying "you're not good enough to even target, now get out pf the way do we can fight the REAL enemy"
>>44171901
For "Slay a Dragon" I'd imagine bow builds would come in handy, as would mounts with flight (there was a way to get a pegasus mount as a paladin in 3.5 IIRC).
The chasm could be solved by jump, climb, ropes or even using Knowledge (Engineering) to construct a bridge. Yeah.
The big thing about tiers for me has always been:
1. Can [class] solve [problem]?
2. How many different ways can [class] solve [problem]?
3. How many ways can [class] solve [problem] that other classes don't have access to?
Of course, that's just how I measure tiers. I also believe that it's impossible for anyone to actually understand how they're "supposed" to work.
>>44171830
Why are you so obsessed with Wildshape? Taking Wildshape doesn't erase your spell caster progression or the entire versatile wealth of spells available to you. You can still case them. You don't even need that much build focus to be a good caster as a Druid.
>>44171937
But that's the fucking TRUTH.
The wizard is INFINITELY more dangerous than the barbarian. It's a simple fact, and your enemies will eventually figure that out, even if they're fucking 6 INT orcs.
>>44171959
Why are 2 or 3 important?
>>44171980
Because a Wizard crossing a ravine with any of his 300 spells that allow him to do that and a Fighter spending 2 days climbing down and then back up to the other side as his only method aren't equally the same, you fucking retard.
>>44171980
Sometimes circumstances render certain options invalid, having multiple solutions to the same situation adds levels of redundancy.
>>44171830
Druid has one of the best spell lists for CC, they're still a 9th level caster, they have spontaneous summons and while SNA isn't as good as Summon Monster, it's still plenty good if you put effort into it. And while they don't have the utility spells of a wizard, Wildshape makes up for it. And whatever part of the class you focus on, you can still do the others halfway decently, since you're a prepared caster with access to your entire list.
>>44171968
You do realize that your typical wizard doesn't really go anywhere even close to the theoretical optimization ceiling, right? And that most of them are typically the sort to just buff the party and let them actually do things?
>>44171937
That's just strategic thought, anon. KILL THE WIZARD FIRST should be ingrained in the minds of every living being, a survival instinct.
As a martial, it is your job to play interception. Be a meat shield while the wizard does his thing.
I'm terribly sorry to interrupt your discussion with such mundane matter, but can you, please, help me with this - >>44171605 ?
>>44171980
2 is important because it means that a class is more flexible. Not every wizard needs FLY to cross a chasm, but every Kineticist is going to need that one Air power that gives them flight.
3 is important because that's what defines the differences between classes. It's how you actually divide classes up between tiers. By eliminating the solutions that /everyone/ has access to, you can demonstrate what each class actually brings to the table. That's why I almost always discount Wealth By Level based solutions to problem classes. Because it isn't the class solving the problem, its the money that every character gets that's doing the work.
>>44172017
I'm sure SasukeUchihaXXX on Roll20 is like that, yes. The people I play with know exactly what they're doing and wouldn't hesitate to completely shit on an encounter if the opportunity to do so arose. Rather than ask them to "throttle it back a little" and play as if they're retards, I just challenge them further, which is what they want anyway.
>>44171996
Bait
>>44171996
That makes sense. Do you think that having more specific no. 1 cases would serve the same purpose though?
>>44171968
So all enemies have innate knowledge of "If there is a caster target them first before literally anything"? And that still doesn't answer the "not fun" and "martials aren't good enough" part of my post.
>>44172017
Its called sandbagging.
Is the only way I can get normal movement speed in Mithral heavy armor by grabbing a level in barbarian, or is there some sort of magic item that can do that for me.
>>44172022
Perception is usually the most rolled skill. Disable device is pretty situational, and stealth isn't very good (plus you get invisibility eventually). For a first skill you can't go wrong with perception.
>>44172075
>So all enemies have innate knowledge of "If there is a caster target them first before literally anything"?
If they have any intelligence, they should. In a world of high magic, you'd think it would get around that the most dangerous man in the room is always the loser in the dirty robes.
>>44172010
How exactly is this broken though exactly? In the levels that people actually play at. The druid is fairly admirable at what they do, and they generally have enough versatility that they contribute, but they don't really have many tricks that are outright broken. I mean this place is a forum where doing about 40-50 damage on a fucking charge is acceptable, but doing anything in any sort of creative way isn't.
If you are playing a game where the DM holds your hand, throws out stupid monsters that are played stupidly. That don't use any of their abilities or treasure that they possess. Then yes, they are in fact broken. However if you have a DM that even has the mildest handling of the mechanics of the game. With a mind unpoisoned from GiTP tier wankery and actual understanding of what monster abilities actually fucking do. Then any of the "broken" classes aren't so broken. At least below level 11 or so.
>>44171968
Just to interject - a 6 INT orc, or even an 18 INT enemy caster, won't have the meta-awareness of class tiers that we, the players, do.
Now, 18 INT enemy Wizard is likely to notice his own kind and target them - but the party Wizard is otherwise not likely to look very imposing. Any Animal or Magical Beast will go after the larger, more intimidating-looking threat (i.e. the Barbarian) first. Why? You kill the big guy with the big weapon, and the thing that LOOKS most likely to kill you is gone.
Enemy humanoids might go after anyone who looks like the leader first, and that usually means going after whoever's barking orders or leading the charge. You cut off the head, the threat is dead.
Basically, the only people who would realistically assume, without any further analysis, that the Wizard is the most dangerous one there, are other casters - they know the tell-tale signs of "this guy's magic" before he even starts casting, whereas the "kill the big one" beasts and the "cut off the head" soldiers will have to learn the hard way.
tl;dr - Wizards ARE dangerous, but they do not LOOK dangerous.
>>44172063
That's exactly what my second question is asking buildposter. That's the point of the question. Let me repost them for you:
1. Can [class] solve [problem]?
2. How many different ways can [class] solve [problem]?
3. How many ways can [class] solve [problem] that other classes don't have access to?
>>44172060
This.
Players want to be challenged. If you let them bring some broken T1 bullshit to the game and then roll over and let them facefuck everything into piles of sauce, they weren't hoping you would go "OKAY, YOU WIN. JUST DON'T BULLY ME ANYMORE"
They want you to bust out the hard shit.
At least my players.
It's insulting to be asked to not give it your all.
>Sorry DM, I'll try to drag out these fights a little longer by picking bad spells and making bonehead plays!
>>44172121
Don't forget "how important is it to solve [problem]?"
Dying is a lot worse than, say, making a weak impression on the barmaid with the big titties.
And also, number 2 isn't a good rule of thumb in that wording, because once you can solve a problem, only the single best way of solving the problem really matters to you.
It's more important to look at
A) how many different problems a class can solve
B) how well it can solve each of those problems
C) how important is each problem in question.
You'll also have to correct for overlap in a party context: whenever more than one person can solve a problem, only the person with the single best way of solving that problem should matter.
>>44172117
It's reasonable to assume that, in a universe where wizards are all-powerful killing machines and problem solvers with no equal, old men with long beards are probably feared and well documented in the tales and histories of any humanoid race clever enough to have a proper language.
>>44172096
There is also Metal Oracle mystery and Effortless Armor spell, that you, probably, can place into a custom magic item.
> eidolon
I mean "feat for 2st level eidolon", have corrected later. Can't decide on eidolon's feat
>>44172124
Indeed
>"I swear I'll play my character less cleverly than I feel is appropriate for the sake of game balance! This is totally something I want to concern myself with, and I have no investment in whether my character or party are successful!"
said no-one ever.
>>44172124
Holy SHIT, THIS.
I understand there's special cases when really broken shit happens and a character becomes invincible or does 500 DPR effortlessly, but for the most part the answer to a strong party is stronger enemies. I cannot fathom GMs who ask their players to not go hog wild. If a GM asked me to change my spell selection or take a different feat because it makes me too strong, I'd ask him why me being strong is an issue. If he responds with "it trivializes encounters" he's a fucking retard. If he responds with "it trivializes the rest of the party" I'd ask him why the rest of the party can't just receive a power increase to match. There isn't actually a reason why the Fighter can't find a sick armor when the Wizard gets access to a new retardedly good spell. Oh, slippery slope, blah blah, you just wanna punch god in the face you retards go play a video game blah blah blah. Fuck off. PF is in a setting where anything the PCs can do, someone else can do just fine too. For fuck's sake if the PCs get "TOO STRONG" just start rolling out fucking mythic enemies at them. There is ALWAYS a step above for the enemies to go. If you're not okay with a high power campaign, get the fuck out and go play Runequest or something. Pathfinder is about escalation: everyone goes up in power, the events go up in magnitude, etc. etc. all the fucking time until the ball-bustingly amazing climax of the campaign. That's how it's supposed to be. It's meant to be a fucking rank SSS CUH-RAYZEE adventure, and if you're not providing that for your players, or if you and your players don't WANT that, play a different system and a different setting.
>>44171591
Ok so...
1: Spell Focus
1B: Spell Specialization
3: Varisian Tattoo
5: Intensify Spell?
5B: Empower Spell?
>>44172117
>Basically, the only people who would realistically assume, without any further analysis, that the Wizard is the most dangerous one there, are other casters - they know the tell-tale signs of "this guy's magic" before he even starts casting, whereas the "kill the big one" beasts and the "cut off the head" soldiers will have to learn the hard way.
Says who? They've lived in the world their entire lives. They've heard stories of the things magic can do, and if they're competent enough to be a challenge to PCs, they've likely seen at least some of it themselves as well. And wizards tend to look like wizards, as well. If a guy is wearing robes, smells funny and has a scrollcase positioned so that it's easy to quickly pull out its contents in the middle of combat(or even has wands and/or rods hanging from his belt), he's probably a magic-user of some sort. Especially if everyone else he's hanging out with is heavily armed and wearing armor. Other kinds of magic users may be less obvious, but even then there are usually signs a careful observer might note.
Obviously not EVERYONE is necessarily this savvy, and this doesn't apply to creatures of animal/nearly animal intelligence or creatures that wouldn't have encountered a mage before, but even at low levels this applies to many people PCs would fight, and by mid-levels, it should be nearly everyone - and that's assuming they've never heard of the PCs before, which many of them may have.
>>44172157
Problem priority isn't something I consider because that's too situationally dependent. Dying might not actually be a problem if your DM is planning on you waking up in the Astral Sea for a plane hopping campaign later, while that big titted barmaid might be the BBEG's little sister who knows his one true weakness.
It's better to assume all problems are of "equal" importance, even if that will never actually be the case.
Question 2 exists because the optimal solution can, again, vary on a case by case basis. The Fly spell might be the best solution for getting the wizard across the chasm by himself, but Wall of Stone might be better if you need to get a whole bunch of people across a chasm at once.
I'm also specifically avoiding intraparty overlap because the tier system is about placing an individual class's potential. Tier placement isn't about groups, it's about individuals. As such, whether or not the party's Wizard can solve the problem has no bearing on the tier placement of the party's Fighter.
Hey guys, is there any site that can tell you what optimal party member is missing? Given the right motivations and so, ofcourse. Even better if it goes further than "class" and explains possible archetypes or styles.
>have 10 different starting plot hooks for campaigns
>Players each show up pursuing one (for a total of four out of the 10 being initially pursued, but all 10 being mentioned before they truly choose one), but must decide by themselves when they meet which one is most important
Is this a good idea? I'm rather new to GM'ing, but I trust my group and I want to make sure I do this right. For their sake.
>>44172287
You're already there bucko just lay out your party and what 3rd party content you're running
>>44172287
huh?
Isn't that kinda thing just plain self-evident?
Help me figure this out, So apparently clerics and oracles choose whether they learn cure or inflict wounds during character creation and get all greater/mass versions for free when the spell level becomes available. Does this mean the opposite version is locked out entirely or can I still use my new learned spells from level ups to add them to my list?
Second question is: can I use vital strike and power attack for attacks of opportunity?
>>44172389
They can still learn them, but they need to prepare/learn them, they aren't known automatically.
>>44172389
You get your choice for free and it doesn't even take up slots or anything, it's free. What you do with your slots is your own thing. Personally I wouldn't allow a Good cleric to cast inflict wounds at all in my games, but hey.
Second: no, but there's a feat in PoW expanded that lets you.
>>44172389
Vital Strike-You'll need the Seize the Opportunity feat from PoW:Expanded
Power Attack-Yes
>>44172302
Honestly, no. You could do four leads that happen to all lead the same place. Like the Paladin is tasked to help the town being hurt by the BBEG. The rogue wants revenge on the BBEG. the Wizard has heard of the BBEG Holding a powerful magic item. And the Bard wants to rescue his sister from the BBEG.
>>44172157
>Dying is a lot worse than, say, making a weak impression on the barmaid with the big titties.
Says you. Death is just a status condition with a non-scaling price tag to remove.
>>44171679
I've played with a GM like you before. You must think you're a clever little shit when you make the enemies ignore the front liner and make him feel even more useless when you make them all run past the guy with the giant sword and go straight to stabbing the exact same person no matter how he is dressed and regardless if no monster has ever survived fighting the group to know who exactly of the four is the arcane caster.
Heck, you people probably make monsters spawn right next to the wizard in the middle of the fight.
How does one go "above and beyond" as a servant of Ragathiel? Transcend CLEAVE AND SMITE and become something more - a true avatar of His righteous indignation? The kind of person he would personally show up to reward with a longsword of exquisite craftsmanship, alight in holy flame and engraved with invocations against Evil by His very own hand?
>>44172356
>>44172367
I guess.
We're gonna have a:
Waves Oracle Archer
Arcanist Illusionist
Grappling Brawler
Ranged Inquisitor
Missing the fifth. Was thinking some sort of melee-ish fighter? No 3pp allowed, not even one. Humanoid heavy campaign.
>buildposter is back from his month long ban
>he galvanizes another caster debate
>the paidrone come out of the woodwork again
>people are still responding to him
I go to bed and this happens? I'm disappointed in you /pfg/
>>44169909
I maintain the tier spreadsheet google doc. Everything PF on it is based on arguments people have been able to give me here on pfg.
The 3.5 stuff came from the min max boards
>>44172583
I didn't notice him galvanizing any caster debate. People were just talking about Tiers and he popping out to comment about it, and then some guy shit his pants over Druids not being T1 because Wildshape is bad, which somehow has a bearing on their full caster progression.
>>44172582
You need a frontliner. Big shield big armor big health pool guy that enemies will try to kill first.
The Brawler can't live up to that role, he's more of a damage dealer/disabler if anything.
I'd suggest a Paladin or a Warpriest, they can both fill the "guy in huge armor in front yelling courageous battlecries" role but they also have extra bells and whistles like healing and buffs.
>>44172582
That's a pretty solid party overall. I'd recommend something like bard or alchemist that can hold its own but mostly act as a force multiplier for the party.
Bard can provide some attack/damage bonuses and do decent melee or range, along with being party face, while Alchemist can act as BFC with bombs, smash face with mutagens or provide long term buffs with extracts and potions.
