How do you feel nWod 2e (aka CHRONICLES OF DARKNESS)?
>>44144101
>CoD
ISHYGDDT
>>44144101
OPP continues its downward spiral into further lows of quality and relevance.
>>44144101
Awesome.
Just awesome.
>>44144101
PDF wan.
>>44146349
>OPP continues its downward spiral into further lows of quality and relevance.
That's just TTRPGs in general.
(1/2)
This is almost straight-up an admittance of OPP's absolute failure in not just making games, but in running a game company. It's gone so far that they basically need to cordon off the stuff they've made in the last few years, because it for some reason seems to be able to get even worse.
For all its flaws, I'm an oWoD fan. It takes a bit to get into the ambience, and it gets cringy once in a while, but the general tone of the game line is actually interesting and engaging - it's an engaging setting with a metaplot that's good when it's not self-contradicting, and the fluff is mostly just plain good. The combat system is dodgy, but the rules work well for everything that's not fighting.
I cannot describe how mad I was at nWoD, and it's even harder to describe how furious I am at New New World of Darkness. nWoD was a mess of overly simplified rules, angsty subcultural-pandering fluff, pretentiously thin metaplot and horrible player/GM advice, and it all boiled down into a mess where a few games were barely salvageable (Vampire and Changeling - Promethean just barely missed the cut), but the game line in general was a cheap dilution of what the oWoD had been, ruined by a pretentious writing staff, pushy subcultural-marketing management and just plain laziness.
This new abomination is a whole new can of worms. Newer games like Beast (and I assume Deviant) have all the flaws of the nWoD and more - rules that try to be simpler but end up needlessly complex at odd points because of arbitrary rejection of perfectly good oWoD rules, pretentious fluff, delusions of sophistication, encouraging special-snowflaking/bleed and subcultural pandering.
(2/2)
Oh God, the sociopolitical and subcultural pandering. The line's biggest problem is the way that any semblance of a "grey upon grey" morality or moral conflict vanishes without a trace as soon as the Tumblr comes in. The core themes and main selling points of the game line - murky morality, morally grey heroes and the lack of an objective moral authority - are completely thrown away in favor of giving characters a built-in sociopolitical excuse. Minority characters are crudely shoehorned in and showered in pity, the whole theme of Beast exists to stroke off and reaffirm the otherkin subculture, and some of the sample characters given in the book are a complete mockery. The best example is probably the man-hating power feminist vs. the fedora parody Hero.
The power-feminist is literally portrayed as someone who approaches men because they're men and humiliates, hurts or kills them for literally no other reason than them having been born as men. She's portrayed as extremely sympathetic and is completely flawless, mentioned to always win against men, and we're expected to sympathise with someone who grabs random men off the street and assaults them for no particular reason other than their gender.
The fedora-parody Hero is portrayed as a disgusting, delusional, sexist molester to a farcical degree that leaves no doubt that it's made for the Tumblr circlejerk to laugh at, and he's shown as completely in the wrong. This is in spite of the fact that he actually saves people with no strings attached and has killed werewolves by himself, as well as doing nothing disagreeable past that - but since he wears a longcoat and a fedora as well as considers himself a modern-day knight, his saving normal humans without strings attached is portrayed as a more despicable act than grabbing random men from off the street and humiliating, injuring or killing them for no reason but their gender.
See, that's my problem.
>>44144101
>Chronicles
Just. Why. Unless it is a ploy to deviate further from oWoD and nWoD and an attempt to bring more diverse, more progressive line of books that make funny faces to 'old and busted (and racist/what'ist)' WoD books.
Then they are okay in my book, just won't touch them with a twenty feet pole.
I like my books edgy, conflicting and full of petty 'muh justice' fights.
>>44147494
>>44147506
Entirely correct
>>44147494
>>44147506
Careful you don't cut yourself on your edginess...
>>44147549
Get out newfag
>>44147529
Or, you know, it's because Paradox/WW wants to use the oWoD IP only and wants rid of nWoD to avoid brand dilution.
>>44147561
>newfag
lol, stfu
>>44147549
Because not liking a game that completely displaces balance and previous core themes in favor of shrill preaching is edgy?
No, really, what about that is "edgy" aside from the fact that you don't like it?
Also, you're obviously an offboarder. Have you ever heard the words "lurk more"? They mean that you should look at the board for a bit (not hours - daily for weeks to months) to start understanding the board culture before you embarrass yourself by posting some 9kek reaction image.
>>44147586
Asshat, I have been lurking 4chan and /tg/ for years. The pics came from /b/, not some shithole.
I call you edgy because you want the 90s trenchcoat and fedora shite of oWoD over something that actually had elements of horror. In a horror game.
>>44144101
Haven't had a chance to look at it, I just hope it results in a new bloodlines game.
Since me and my friends are adults capable of ignoring political and moral pushiness, I guess I'd have to know what if any mechanics they changed. Anyways the community for vampire has always been full of special snowflake shots so to me this is just a new flavor.
If it's just reskinned NWOD then meh to the meh degree.
>>44147506
I've not read the stuff in question, so I might be really missing the point here, but...
>any semblance of "grey upon grey" morality or moral conflict vanishes without a trace as soon as the Tumblr comes in
The two characters that you mention then go on to be shades of grey - a bad person who assaults people but does it for something approximating a good cause, a good person who is associated with a maligned culture. I don't know how exactly these two characters are actually portrayed, but if you're capable of seeing that they're not actually the way they're portrayed, it's a bit weird to assume that everyone else will take it simply at face value. Are you assuming that the writers assumed people would take it a face value? I mean, if they were pushing some kind of agenda, then they why the hell would they include the stuff that makes you go "actually, maybe this person isn't all good" or "actually, maybe this person isn't all bad".
nWoD, and nnWod, are shit for all kinds of reasons, especially compared to oWoD, but seeing the Tumblr boogeyman behind everything is a bit crazy.
>>44147636
A new Bloodlines game, or a Paradox Grand Strategy game based on WoD would be GLORIOUS.
>>44147633
>WoD
>horror game
Ha, yeah, right.
>>44147633
The oWoD works well because it's outdated. It adds a patina of age and grit to everything from a modern perspective, and the millennial nihilism captured in the setting doesn't work as well now we're past that age. The setting, in my opinion, is also much better at capturing horror through isolation, alienation, humanity conflict and the plain eldritch.
The nWoD is bad at horror in my opinion, because it attempts to inflate everything artificially and put thoughts and emotions into the players' heads artificially. It's straight back to the 1st-ed Alien Hunger prepackaged one-shot (so it's not all been going forward). It's pretentious and forced, trying to cram down your throat exactly how horrible it all it, and it splinters willing suspension of disbelief into a thousand pieces. There's little to no real humanity conflict any more because the neo-roleplayers are uncomfortable with it - hell, look at Promethean and its obligatory canonical way of becoming human again. The mood is lightening by leaps and bounds, as new fandoms need their preferences pandering to, and the "horror" elements quickly get so weird it's obvious they were forced out by the writing department simply to create something "original" and "postmodern". The horror provided by the undiscriminating bleakness of the oWoD is infinitely stronger in my opinion, because it allows you to use it as a backdrop instead of having Justin Achilli's idea of horror stuffed down your throat.
>>44147642
You would be right. How I wish you were right. You haven't read the book, though. It's pretty much SJW FATAL at times, with absurdly black-and-white opinions on things people shouldn't even be able to think in black and white about. The game is so absurdly fixated on its own sociopolitical morals that it never shuts up about it, and the writing style completely deviates from the usual nWoD style in favor of shrill tractwork when social justice comes in.
Read the Beast Kickstarter draft and weep.
>>44144101
The name is silly, but as long as they don't mangle the setting I don't mind
>>44147715
Hey, it's not like oWoD didn't have it's share of bullshit. Werewolf was about self-righteous eco-terrorists, while Mage was post-modernist anti-science propaganda about how you feel about reality is more important than what it actually is
>>44147494
Isn't it safer to argue that oWoD was actually the biggest subculture panderer of the lot, with the only reason it got so popular being its goth allure and appeal to all varieties of social outsiders?
>>44147774
No, because that's ridiculous and wrong.
>>44147771
>>44147774
Werewolf wasn't as one-sided - it was wracked by a writers' war between the eco-preachers and the people who wanted to make an actual conflict out of it. As the game grew into its own, it quickly shed a lot of the early eco-terrorist ideals while actually questioning what the Garou were doing. Mage was the same - a first edition hurt by early White Wolf's inexperience in roleplaying games, but especially Revised, with its revamp of the Technocracy, really tore it out of the subcultural niche.
First-edition oWoD was subcultural-pandering and preachy. The difference is that it grew out of it, especially in the Revised editions, and the nWoD (or excuse me, CoD) is ending up sliding into it. The oWoD improved, and the CoD is falling into the exact same trap while loudly claiming (refer to the Vampire Translation Guide) how it's so much better and more sophisticated than the oWoD.
>>44147715
>It's pretty much SJW FATAL at times
I just went and read the introduction, along with the Thaddeus Pearson chap, to try and get a better idea. Oh, and look, there's the person with the zir pronouns, and I'll keep reading through it.
From the introduction, at least, it looks pretty clear that you're expected to play characters that aren't exactly nice ("no one could argue that you had a cruel streak that ran bone deep"), driven by something pretty awful (the Hunger) and are basically happy with that state of affairs ("you wouldn’t go back if you could"). The game really sees to go out of it's way to tell you that these people are evil monsters, more or less bad to the bone. You appear to cite somebody who targets perpetrators of "date rape, domestic violence, child abuse, the really unpleasant stuff" (with explicitly no mention of their (ha, I'm not going to use your silly preferred pronouns, take that hypothetical fictional character!) gender or the gender of their targets), who belongs to a monstrous group of people that kill people. Not only that, but the description of them states that they might say it's about justice, but it is not. Explicitly so. If anything, isn't that pointing out how _bad_ SJWs are; that it's not about good, positive things like making the world a better place, or righting wrongs, it's about feeding their deep-seated need to punish other people beyond what is reasonable?
>>44147837
Read the whole thing. It starts out with a relatively well-written piece of fluff and some pretty decent writing, but something starts happening about halfway through. It might be lazy editing, it might be Marketing changing the goal of the project or it might be something completely different, but I thought the same thing as you did too at first. I saw it being called "Otherkin: the Yiffing" and read the first third of it, and I honestly thought it was good. After I read the rest, though, I was disappointed in the good opening. It has some good ideas and a good first third, but it ends up flaking out more and more as it gets into the rationale behind the Beasts.
It starts out with portraying the Beasts as morally dubious and actually interesting, but that loses focus as the book goes on. The further you read, the more skewed the writing becomes and the more it starts focusing on delivering a sociopolitical morale than actually writing a game.
Basically, the game starts out with a good concept about morally dubious people who do morally dubious things for a relatively good cause. As the book goes on, however, the characters become more and more justified, the things they do start becoming more pettily vindictive while still being portrayed positively, and the more absurdly black-and-white the book becomes about their cause being good.
>>44147871
Could you point me at where the man-hating feminist is then, so I can skip past the stuff that looks interesting and see what all the fuss is about?
>>44148025
Shit, it was ages ago. If you're using the Kickstarter draft, you should be able to search for "men" and scroll through all the instances of it.
>>44148056
All 938 instances of it. Okay, be right back.
>>44148069
I would have said "humiliate", but I don't remember if it was there.
>>44148071
I've just done a search for "men " (with the space, narrows it down to sixty nine results) and I cannot find it. A search for "humiliate" brings up nothing.
>>44148096
Could you put the PDF up here (since mine seems to have gone away)? I'll find it in there.
>>44148112
https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1434/25/1434256608427.pdf
Here you go!
>>44148123
Page 43, second character entry. I misremembered the "killing" part.
>>44148155
Not the other guy, but can you quote the relevant bit? I can't see what you mean in my copy (which has "On the Hunt" as a sub-heading near the top of p. 43).
>they don't think oWoD pandered super hard
What are you, hippies?
>>44148155
How is Jo presented as a sympathetic, flawless power-feminist? Compare this to the way in which every other character mentioned is driven by a negative, base urge (hers is the need to assert herself over others, instilling "fear, respect and trembling worship") but it still generally portrayed in a way that's not altogether awful and illustrates a manner in which a player could take a concept "I'm driven by this base urge!" and make it into a workable player character.
But even if you're right and she's a man-hating power-feminist? She's also one example character, taking up a small paragraph, in a four hundred and fifty seven page document of plain text.
Anyway, I'll carry on reading, but the socio-political morale it seems to be pushing to me, at least, is more like it's poking fun at the bizarreness of identity politics as a concept and the people who engage with it. Not "anti-SJWs are all awful" or "SJWs are all awful" but, rather, that they're two sides of the same retarded coin.
Does anyone else think that "Chronicles of Darkness" sounds like the subtitle to a spinoff of a JRPG series?
Say:
>"Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles: Chronicles of Darkness"
>"Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner: Chronicles of Darkness"
>"Disgaea 5: Chronicles of Darkness"
>"Tales of Symphonia 3: Chronicles of Darkness"
>>44148379
I'm pretty sure it always is a JRPG.
![Dark_Chronicle_Coverart[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/za44iFE.png "Dark_Chronicle_Coverart[1].png")
>>44148457
You are thinking about Dark Chronicle.
>>44147494
>>44147506
Do you just not remember when oWoD constantly pandered to the liberals of its day? Did you forget the song quotes before every chapter, and the essays about how to play the game the right way? Do you not know that nWoD most developed by oWoD developers? Do you actually fucking like Soak as a mechanic?
I'm sorry that nWoD made you made but seriously. Take off the rose tinted glasses.
>>44148542
>Someone likes oWoD
>I now must attack him and his game at all costs because how dare people not switch over to nWoD with me
>>44148567
>I can't handle my favorite game being "attacked"
I don't know how anyone reads 1e/2e era oWoD and manages to complain about "pretentious writing". I don't understand how anyone can promote the narrative that no, 90s White Wolf was this middle-of-the-road politics company that was down to earth and focused on detailed, quality mechanics. It just reads like they saw what White Wolf's always been sling, but it doesn't have their favorite Vampire or whatever in it so it's no longer OK.
I like the oWoD setting. The games have staying power for a reason. But let's not get wrapped up in a past that didn't exist.
>>44147642
Only the shades of gray are largely unintentional. It's not there for intentional ambiguity so much as terrible writing.
>>44148635
Your entire premise is that nWoD is totally better so you can't defend yourself at this point.
>>44148510
Wasn't that dark cloud 2?
>>44148567
I love how people become attached to their favorite edition of the games they play to the point of taking personally every small thing they construe as criticism.
>>44148663
The irony being that there's a section in the book we're discussing that's basically about the antagonists seeing the world that way.
>>44147452
>That's just TTRPGs in general.
Wrong.
There are games being published that are leaps and bounds beyond the sort of filmy treacle Onyx Path is publishing.
More good news: White Wolf is poaching the best devs for Wod4.
>>44147494
>>44147506
>>44148542
I've posted about this in the wod generals and exalted generals. As "one of the oppressed," I note that the original White Wolf made strides to be welcoming to the LGBTW spectrum folks in the community. That's the key here. It never bled over into the books, because that sort of pandering is insulting and generates backlash like you see above. This damages our efforts to simply be treated like anyone else.
>>44147549
>>44147633
You're wrong here, much as you probably are in most things in life. He's not wrong to complain about declining equality, and he's not wrong to complain about SJW. Social Justice Warriors are the least effective agents of social justice in the history of justice. Your appeal to authority was fucking cute, though. Get lost, newfag.
>>44148809
>W
The fucks this W they added on? What's it signify now?
>>44148815
"Whatever," and it's because I don't have time to type 18 letters.
>>44148828
Ah, gotcha. Frankly I was getting ready to say "Fuck this drop the B I want out." if they added some random bit of insanity to it to appeal to some crazy internet fuckers.
>>44148764
>More good news: White Wolf is poaching the best devs for Wod4.
>Monte Cook World of Darkess part 2
>>44148644
>It's not there for intentional ambiguity so much as terrible writing.
Okay, okay. So it's there, it provides ambiguity, but - but! - it's only because the writers are so awful that they happened to luck out and write something that matches what they were going for. When all your errors compound to help establish and reinforce the themes you were aiming for, well, that's either extremely improbable or maybe the authors aren't quite as terrible as all that.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't ever hold up the writing in World of Darkness rulebooks as being anything particularly special, I'd hope most people like the games because of the ideas rather than the execution, but come on.
>>44148843
I feel exactly the same way. The movement was LGBT. It's added some more, but adding another 10 letters is just awkward and silly.
>>44148647
No, the point is that if we're going to have a serious conversation, we need to ditch the nostalgia goggles.
Like this >>44148809
>It never bled over into the books
Do you not remember, for example, Children of Gaia Revised? Or is the early 2000s the cutoff point between "acceptible representation" and "SJW bullshit" now? I can never tell these days with the pearl clutchers. Not to mention the "original White Wolf" is a pretty nebulous term. Is that the Rein●Hagen era? The Wieck/Achilli era? The Webb era? Is the cutoff just 2004?
I'm amazed that anyone thinks WoD4 is going to be any different in its politics and tone, considering who the creative director is and what company owns White Wolf.
>>44148953
>>44148644
>>44149013
Used to be LGB that I remember, but that was back when I was a kid. Regardless, I refuse to accept anything beyond what's there. Pretty much everything else is people trying to be special and different and little else.
>>44147494
>I cannot describe how mad I was at nWoD, and it's even harder to describe how furious I am at New New World of Darkness. nWoD was a mess of overly simplified rules, angsty subcultural-pandering fluff, pretentiously thin metaplot
All of these things make me disregard your entire post, because you are literally a buttmad OWoD fan posting on the internet, on top of being incredibly dense and rose tinted about the game you admitted liking.
>>44149017
>Do you not remember, for example, Children of Gaia Revised? Or is the early 2000s the cutoff point between "acceptible representation" and "SJW bullshit" now? I can never tell these days with the pearl clutchers. Not to mention the "original White Wolf" is a pretty nebulous term. Is that the Rein●Hagen era? The Wieck/Achilli era? The Webb era? Is the cutoff just 2004?
MRH era. So yes, tacitly before 2002. Then we were in the interim years and I'll be quite frank I wasn't paying attention. Too busy fighting wars.
The SJW phenomenon is really quite recent. I know because I was actually in the States when it really picked up a head of steam, mid 2012 or so. I was agitating for equality for LGBT and when the SJWs first arrived on the scene it seemed like welcome assistance from allies. Now I'm pretty certain it's not. As I've noted elsewhere, SJWs are in it for their own sense of accomplishment. That their defense of who I am validates their existence is disgusting and hypocritical to the extreme. If you are posting on Twitter, Tumblr, or "participating in the movement" from the safety of your armchair, you're no warrior, for social justice or otherwise.
But sure, dismiss me as a pearl clutcher.
>I'm amazed that anyone thinks WoD4 is going to be any different in its politics and tone, considering who the creative director is and what company owns White Wolf.
Martin is a very nice gentleman who, based on what I've seen, writes very well. Unless you think someone else will be exercising creative control?
>>44147494
Further, OPP did not "run" WoD, only wrote games for it that were at least the same quality of OWoD without being tied to the distinct 90's vibe or being a vehicle of author masturbation.
If you have issues with the brand as a whole, then you better look at Eve as the problem first and foremost.
>>44149102
>Unless you think someone else will be exercising creative control?
They have directly stated they are cleaving to OWoD norms and ideals.
OF COURSE they will be forcing the tone to be a certain way.
>>44149073
These posts are funny, why are you so upset someone likes the older version over yours?
>>44149130
Because they are proposing their opinion as fact and ascribing blame to the wrong party.
I have a right to point out factual wrongs and throw down opinion propping for the false idolatry it is.
>>44149073
It's not like there aren't good arguments for the oWoD setting. Early 1e nWoD really was way too dry, even considering it was just starting. It took an entire decade for the nWoD to find its own, while oWoD was attention getting from the get go, even considering the shifting tones of the editions.
>>44149150
>People can't base their views and arguments on their own opinions.
Wrong.
>>44149102
>As I've noted elsewhere, SJWs are in it for their own sense of accomplishment
This is why I maintain that the bit about the person using zir/ze pronouns being driven by their own selfish need to punish others is a sign that the writers are actually quite knowing; it feels like their inclusion in the monstrous beasts is a nod to the idea that their motivations are really not as pure as they think they are.
>>44149159
They are blaming OPP for the way WoD turned out.
The company that neither owned nor had any executive input on the game.
An opinion CAN be wrong when it's based on false information.
>>44149129
What does this even mean?
Yes, they've been very transparent about the fact that Martin will be writing a metastory for the setting and yes, they will be producing the 4th edition in-house.
>>44149223
>What does this even mean?
It means they will be writing a story following the outwardly dated, 90's style writing of OWoD, because that is part and parcel of what made the writing what it was, because that is what the new owners want, not what the writer feels best suits a new offering for the game.
Fans of OWoD are the ones in control of it, and that rarely means a good product.
>>44149189
WoD turned out the way it did because developers for Onyx Path bucked against the strictures put in place to maintain the storylines for the World of Darkness MMO, strictures put in place by Martin so that the MMO wouldn't lack any discernible connection to the tabletop games outside of the name.
This is why we got The Strix Chronicles. And the God-Complex Engine. Because certain developers wanted to do things that were outside the established canon of the World of Darkness. Which isn't wrong, but it is wrong to attempt to associate them directly with the World of Darkness. Which is why they're now the Chronicles, which is fucking amazingly bad business dealing on Rich's part.
They really ought to just drop the current iterations and use their new game engine to write urban horror games and not have to pay licensing fees they don't need to as they explore new territory in the space.
I mean they'd be crushed under the weight of Wod4, but that's inevitable.
>>44149251
I'm pretty sure people that liked oWoD will be rather happy with those facts, so that you disagree is nothing more than your opinion.
>>44149102
Yeah, you're a pearl clutcher. You're caught up in the most basic crisis of toxic allies, the same kind that showed up in the last civil rights movements. Only instead of either ignoring them or trying to talk then over, "real justice" advocates seem just as likely to stay home and yell at their opponents for not getting out there. You're terrified of a teen posting misappropriated leftie terms on a microblogging sites. You are literally on the precipice of another identity politics wave, and you choose to let these teens walk all over you just so you can post on an anonymous imageboard and feel superior. And while we fucking squabble, our opponents see the void and go for the counterstrike, to the point where even they're falling apart.
>>44149265
>WoD turned out the way it did because developers for Onyx Path bucked against the strictures put in place to maintain the storylines for the World of Darkness MMO
NWoD was a thing before CCP's mmo, and the mmo was to be based on OWoD anyway, which OPP has made no noticeable changes to.
>he established canon of the World of Darkness
Lolwut?
>>44147506
>The power-feminist is literally portrayed as someone who approaches men because they're men and humiliates, hurts or kills them for literally no other reason than them having been born as men. She's portrayed as extremely sympathetic and is completely flawless, mentioned to always win against men, and we're expected to sympathise with someone who grabs random men off the street and assaults them for no particular reason other than their gender.
>The fedora-parody Hero is portrayed as a disgusting, delusional, sexist molester to a farcical degree that leaves no doubt that it's made for the Tumblr circlejerk to laugh at, and he's shown as completely in the wrong. This is in spite of the fact that he actually saves people with no strings attached and has killed werewolves by himself, as well as doing nothing disagreeable past that - but since he wears a longcoat and a fedora as well as considers himself a modern-day knight, his saving normal humans without strings attached is portrayed as a more despicable act than grabbing random men from off the street and humiliating, injuring or killing them for no reason but their gender.
My biggest gripe with the Beast leak (which is well encapsulated in that description but I'm not sure how well it applies now that they're changing stuff) is that Beasts might as well be the narcissistic abusers of society and we're supposed to root for them. It was flat our written each beast had an urge that made it somekind of abuse fucknut. But they just went 'I'm okay with beign this evil, it's the rest of the world that is wrong'.
Meanwhile the guys we're supposed to hate, the heroes, were poor bastards who snapped from exposure to the Beast's general evil presence. They didn't choose to be come the antagonist, the beast just accidentally mind raped them. Now they want to get rid of the Beast and perhaps accidentally in the process can save people. Yet somehow we are supposed to think Heroes are the monsters in this.
>>44147506
See, you say "there's no grey" but then go on to say "a sympathetic chacracter does bad things and an usymlathetic character does heroic things" and that's pretty moral grey. WoD has always been about playing the monster, so are you really surrounded it's written to make hunters (your typical hero in monster stories) the antagonist? Or that something written from the perspective of a monster is going to rationalise or justify monstrosity?
Honestly it sounds like it's feminism that's triggering you there. If the monster was a guy possessed by a Nazi ghost and hunting down descendants of concentration camp survivors, say, and the hunter an amoral Mossad agent willing to bomb a hospital to deny him the hunt, but both male, would that be equivalent?
>>44147774
Yes but we were goths back then do it was okay to pander to us. We're angry that they've STOPPED pandering to us and pander to others instead.
>>44149443
I'm not a goth and never was one, and I highly doubt anyone on /tg/ had the personality for it.
>>44147494
>>44147506
I'm mad that Paradox decided catering to this person was better than using the well-written and generally better-thought-out material that came with the nWoD.
People who enjoyed Bloodlines or had a casual interest in WoD through reading novels as a kid would have rolled with the reboot, as long as they kept releasing good material.
>>44149462
Maybe not now but turn the clocks back and there was pretty major overlap
>>44149521
>People who enjoyed Bloodlines would enjoy my completely gutted version with few of the clans or groups they enjoyed and only the most tenuous connection in theme.
Nah. Sorry man, but your system isn't as popular. Not everything revolves around you.
>>44149398
From how you're describing it, neither side has control over their actions; they're each puppets to impulses over which they have no meaningful control, if not puppets to outright overriding supernatural forces.
If the hunter is not the villain for hunting, is he the hero when he's not "choosing" to hunt? He's not that different from the guy who guts whores because the voice in his head says so.
But so is the Beast.
>>44149563
>The person who kills murdering torturers isn't any different from the person that kills prostitutes.
That's delusional anon.
>>44149521
I'm an nWoD fan (I love oWoD plenty too but new Changeling and Hunter are my jam) but there's no way in hell that's true. In fact, I'd say oWoD fans are far more likely to have people who only care about the Lore. It's a deeper, richer universe by design, and that appeals to us now more than ever. oWoD was doing the MCU thing before that was a twinkle in Kevin Feige's eye.
>>44149594
But why does he kill? Is someone who rationally CHOOSES to kill different from one so fucked in the head that they think God wills it? If the nut job happens to eviscerate a terrorist, that doesn't make him NOT crazy.
To say nothing of how, this beingWoD, there are going to be "functional" Monsters (who are basically human, can fit in, urges under control/not disruptive) versus pathological monsters (Humanity 0). So acting as if every Beast is the same doesn't hold up ethically.
>>44149632
Beasts literally feed on suffering and fear. They're not ethical and they can't be. There is no beast equivalent of feeding from bloodbags and rats.
>>44149563
>From how you're describing it, neither side has control over their actions; they're each puppets to impulses over which they have no meaningful control, if not puppets to outright overriding supernatural forces.
Maybe so, but we're supposed to feel bad for the Beast who clearly has the more dangerous and twisted impulse. And to thing is, the Beast (at least in the older leaked version) KNOW it has this impulse and does not care at best or at worst revel in it because 'fuck everyone but me'.
It's like knowing you got a mental problem that makes you a turbocunt but rather doing anything to mitigate it you just go WOO FUCK EVERYONE!
>>44149538
I've a feeling it would be AS popular though, with the right exposure, and the important factor is that it gives writers a better setting to work with while being able to use the draw of the same brand name.
You're a hardcore fan who gets upset at modifications to the classic setting - that's fine, I'm the same way with a bunch of other nerdy IPs - but you're not the average consumer. Most people would pick up a game touted as a spiritual sequel to the game they enjoyed and be like "ok so there's only five clans, that's a pity. But I get powers from joining these new covenant things, so that's ok. And I guess the weird chinese guys aren't going to be in it, that's no great loss".
I mean look, the game touted as the sequel to Planescape: Torment is being made in a 100% separate setting with completely different rules and the fanbase are generally interested. People will generally roll with what they're given and judge it on its own merits.
>>44149714
>My simplified setting with much less lore and identity would be as popular as this thing people have been raving about for decades despite cutting almost all the clans and factions people know.
It's literally new coke, And just like new coke, when it gets replaced people will be that much more excited for old coke.
>>44149714
>fanbase are generally interested.
Likely because most of them already paid up for it. You look at things in a different light when you've got a distinct investment in it.
>>44149714
>People will generally roll with what they're given and judge it on its own merits.
You should have been on this board long enough to know that's not true in practice. Like >>44149752 is being harsh, but the core truth is true: more people want the setting that gives them warm memories of high school or playing a janky but awesome computer game. It's the same with even your example of Torment: no one gives a shit about Numenera, but they want Torment. When it comes out, you fucking BET there's going to be a significant faction that are going to be angry or disappointed that Numinera isn't Planescape.
>>44149643
Go talk to the Autumn Court, darling, they'll set you right.
>>44149643
It's called Family Dinner if you're feeding off Werewolves hunting non-humans or Mage fulfilling their Obsessions without hurting others.
>>44149752
the nWoD er, CofD has been going on for like a decade, it has built it's own identity separate from the old stuff.
>>44149305
You are tremendously wrong, to say the least.
>>44149354
You may want to get better informed about what went down with MMO writing and the "nWoD 2e" stuff.
>>44147715
Ah yes, the grit and nihilism of an age where people thought that vampires named after a type of Spanish pants, vampires that acted like gypsies, and vampires that worshiped snakes was good.
>>44150050
The MMO just wasn't pssst enough.
>>44149833
That's next-level shit.
Doubt OPP can handle that kind of challenge any more.
Hey, who remembers oWoD: Gypsies?
Amazing gameline, right? I loved how it had three different skills for stealing and cheating.
>>44149820
>You should have been on this board long enough to know that's not true in practice.
I'll grant you that tabletop fans are particularly conservative and hard to please. Paradox's whole angle is that they want to develop the IP as a multimedia franchise, and a lot of the new customers they want to reach will only be passingly familiar with the lore, if at all.
>>44150113
>Hey, who remembers oWoD: Gypsies?
No one but trolls.
>>44147715
>>44147827
How do you feel about V20 and such? Is it a step backward in sophistication?
>>44150175
>oWoD did no wrong and anyone who says otherwise is a big meanie troll not allowed in my hugbox
>>44149643
But if the beasts don't feed they go on a rampage right?
>>44144101
i hate that the new acronym is CoD but i've really enjoyed everything that's come out from Onyx Path in the past couple of years. Werewolf 2nd Edition and Demon in particular are fantastic.
>>44150213
Exactly, get the fuck out of my hugbox troll
NWoD is good, whereas OWoD is filled with so much dumb shit and gay metaplot about retards I don't give a fuck about that I avoid it.
>>44150050
Or you just don't want to admit that you've become a bystander. Most people don't. You lost your fight so you're hoping that the Cassandra shtick'll give you a free pass with whatever'll replace all this. It won't.
>>44149643
So do Autumn Court changelings and they manage to not be serial killer cannibals all day every day.
Like, you want to play a character compelled to inflict fear? Play a news anchor, a politician, a preacher - anyone who has access to an audience can create fear in that audience. Fuck, what about a horror auteur film maker who uses his Beast to make the films and the fear his films make to feed the Beast?
>>44150213
Gypsies was a very early fuck up that has no relevance, influence or defenders (unlike the Black Hand book, which deserves to be brought up and mocked again and again and again, though I'm pretty sure they've learnt their lesson by now.)
There is nothing to discuss about Gypsies. It's a shitty book that only deserves to be forgotten as soon as possible, and people only bring it up to start shit. The difference between Gypsies and, say, Blood-Dimmed Tides is that the former is wildly "inappropriate" for a 21st century audience, that's the only reason people keep mentioning Gypsies instead of Blood-Dimmed Tides and other shitty books.
>>44150307
Mostly the Gypsies one is better as a example of how dumb oWoD was because outsiders would get that it's dumb and WHY it's dumb. Black Hand, Blood Dimmed Tide, those require more preamble and spiel to communicate the dumb.
>>44150282
Horrors need active fear to be fed. If you're a Tyrant, you have to see people be brought low before your own eyes. Punisher have to inflict the punishment themselves. Predators need to actively consume (however they define it as long as it's corporeal) prey, Ravagers need to be directly responsible for their ruin, and Collecters MUST steal that which the victim holds precious.
There's no work around. You must actively harm or risk your Horror doing worse.
>>44150416
>Tyrant
Judge. Principal. HR manager.
>Punisher
Cop, prison guard. Foster parent. Security guard. HR manager.
>Predator
Basically anything according to definition of prey. HR manager.
>Ravager
Gold-digger. Divorce lawyer. Drug dealer. HR Manager.
>Collector
Taxman. Debt collector. Traffic Warden. HR Manager.
Seriously, you lack imagination.
>>44150473
Hunger also demands crueler and crueler acts the more you feed yourself. Inevitably, a Beast is driven to an abusive act.
>>44150542
And?
So far nothing about this mechanic is different from any of the power-vs-humanity thing that WoD has always been built around.
>>44147494
>Thinks Vampire: the Requiem is the best nWoD game
What? VtR is literally just watered-down shitty VtM. At least the other games tried to be their own thing.
Although they did try to make VtR more distinct in 2e now that they're publishing new VtM books too.
>>44147529
>Just. Why.
Because Paradox Interactive bought both WoDs and Exalted and decided they didn't want to have to explain to people why there are two, mutually-incompatible gamelines both called World of Darkness.
So they decided to change the name of one of them.
And since anyone who hasn't actively been into WoD since 2003 thinks "Vampire the Masquerade" when they think WoD, they decided to call the oWoD "World of Darkness", and rename the new one. The new one is ostensibly called Chronicles of Darkness because nWoD is built more as a toolbox for telling your own stories (and WoD calls campaigns "chronicles") while oWoD was more about the world itself and its changing metplot (hence it having "world" in the title), but more likely was just the first word they thought up to use based on the fact that the 2e books were originally titled stuff like "The God-Machine Chronicle", "The Idigam Chronicle", etc, because back when CCP owned the IPs they wouldn't let them just call it a second edition (because they didn't want to confuse players of the MMO they never managed to actually make).
>>44149752
The nWoD has literally been a thing for longer than oWoD's entire original lifespan before being replaced by nWoD, at this point in time.
>>44149102
>Now I'm pretty certain it's not. As I've noted elsewhere, SJWs are in it for their own sense of accomplishment.
The clearest way to see this is how fast they are to turn on the causes they say they value so much when those causes or groups interfere with a newer cause.
>>44150275
Are you learning disabled?
In case you haven't noticed, the fight over LGB rights is basically over. Like most tectonic shifts in societal mores it will take a generation to finalize, but we won. There are obviously still some issues for transgender, but they've won a huge victory as well because their status is legally protected in the federal sector, which is directly or indirectly over half of jobs in the US.
The fight is, for the most part, over. Which is why it's so very weird to see a whole bunch of people who have no discernible connection with the movement talking about how they're going to win this thing on Twitter.
But please, by all means, continue to dig that hole.
>>44152843
>In case you haven't noticed, the fight over LGB rights is basically over.
Not really.
I mean, for one, yes, you acknowledge transgender rights issues, but there is still a long way to go for actual social equality in America, and more so the rest of the world. The "fight" isn't over because, for instance, every time queer characters show up in fiction or any time some kind of fictional narrative deals with the issues of the minority, people in the real world go "do we really even need to talk about this?" or "aren't there more important things in the world?". As long as people have that kind of reaction to seeing anyone who isn't straight or white--as long as "keep politics out of games" is still something people can say with a straight face--then the "fight" isn't really over.
And, yes, twitter? Tumblr? Facebook? Those are the places this "fight" is being fought, because this is a social fight. Laws are nice, and we still have many more of them to go before there's actual equality, but laws aren't the ultimate goal. Social acceptance and equality is.
>>44149102
People like you tend to think that anyone who says something progressive is a "Social Justice Warrior", and that they're doing it either for their own sense of accomplishment, or because they want something violent and outlandish. You probably think that I'm SJW, or that anyone who's queer and acknowledges that they're queer and doesn't hide it or ignore it is SJW.
>>44147494
>pretentiously thin metaplot
could you explain how nWoD's 'metaplot is, while not simple being both pretentious and thin, but is 'pretentiously thin'
>>44154597
It does not even have a Metaplot.
>>44154674
that doesn't really explain that bizarre statement, though
>>44152843
>>44153920
both of you need to be shoved into an oven
>>44153920
Politics really do not belong in mindless entertainment. You do not need to use everything as a soapbox to push your political and personal views, not everything is meant to 'challenge' people's beliefs or force them to turn to yours.
>>44153920
Also you're SJW for calling it fucking queer. I never understand you idiots who try to 'take back insults' and make yourselves look like retards by using 1950's hate slang.
>>44159236
Eh, it's better than acronym soup.
>>44159451
I'd rather someone just say what they are individually. Like is anon gay? Say that. Anon trans? Say that. Better than using something that sounds really stupid. I mean, as least it's not as bad as those people who run around calling non-white races 'colored' again, like it's the fucking 50's and they're crayon cartoon people and as if white people are actually eggshell white.
>>44159505
What if you're trying to refer to a bunch of people who have non-straight sexual orientations and different gender identities? Because they are often treated as a group.
>>44159885
Gay technically covers lesbian and I doubt anyone bisexual cares. So just do that for sexuality. And transexual, unless they're one of those people who only pretend to be for the fad of it, will usually either want to be called as their physical sex or the sex they feel to be. So male or female. There's no other gender identities than that anyway. And really, sexual orientation and gender identity are two different issues so lumping them together rarely words out well. Plus you could just used the LGBT thing if you have to, it's not like any of the letters they've glued onto it since refer to anything real and not juts attention seekers on the internet.
>>44147494
>pretentious fluff, delusions of sophistication
So just like oWoD?Of which I love!
>>44144101
The God-Machine Chronicles came out in 2013. Imperial Mysteries came out in 2012.
"While Alienated could simply reap souls to feed their patrons, this is actually the least efficient method. Founding a religion is challenging, but channels human spiritual power in a more refined, potent fashion. It might also be possible to secretly change the world into an occult engine for a Fallen God: a Mystery Play that returns it to power. The ententes believe at least one such "God Machine" already exists."
What were the other God-Machine allusions printed throughout the previous books?
>>44147494
Oh gee I wonder who could be behind this wall of text...
>For all its flaws, I'm an oWoD fan.
Stop the fucking presses. Don't you have a general to go shit up?
>>44161339
Isn't it a bit silly of you to assume that just because people like oWoD more than nWoD they're 'shitting things up'?
>>44161406
>assume that just because people like oWoD more than nWoD
And yet you never see any oWoD generals last long, or made in months...I want to believe that someday we can have an oWoD thread.
>>44161868
I haven't seen one in eight months, aside from two, and they didn't last long.
>>44161868
Isn't that because the current WoD general is supposed to cover both? Remember earlier in the year it sorta alternated but now there's only one which is full of people that only want to talk about nWoD unfortunately. But nominally it's meant to be both, and it's probably why people assume a regular WoD thread isn't needed.
Are they going to change their name to CoD general now that WoD only refers to oWoD?
>>44161978
You'd think that, but every time we tried making an oWoD regular general thread it died, so we use this one to cover all WoD, both old and recent publications. Everything was going just fine, people were chill and easy going, (re: I posted something wrong, and someone was always charitable enough to point out my mistakes and other bullshit, citing the books for rule and lore clarification. I am thankful to those people. These are dick-riding levels of thankfulness I'm harbouring.) But then a lot of new people with much lower rhetorical standards showed up not long after October 11, preferring venting instead of Valium. Drugs. Take them.
>tl;dr
>fkin' newfags
>>44147506
somebody needs to lose their virginity
>>44162609
I'm starting to think one guy is using a phone to throw random idiot insults at people, or just got his friends to do it. Because holy shit is this mindless ninth grader level of discourse.
>>44161978
The WoD general is for both because WoD couldn't sustain a 24/7 general if it split oWoD and nWoD.
They fail to realize that WoD not having a 24/7 general would be a GOOD thing. We've had like five different WoD threads for the past couple of days, all discussing different things, as opposed to one conversation always dominated by the same shithead like it is in the generals.
>>44163472
>one conversation always dominated by the same shithead like it is in the generals.
I love how this statement applies to every general.
>>44163645
>Literally one of the intro fictions in the corebook?
World of Darkness Core Rulebook: Introduces the concept in the Voice of the Angel vignette in the setting chapter. Voice of the Angel was regarded as so evocative that the God-Machine ended up being revisited several times.
Mysterious Places: The introductory fiction is an excellent short story that references the message of the God-Machine. Several other books also had introductory fiction tying into the God-Machine; I cited this one specifically because it's my favorite, but several are recollected in the God-Machine Chronicle Anthology.
Tome of the Watchtowers: The Obrimos chapter gives one description of the Oracle of the Golden Key that implies some manner of God-Machine involvement.
Saturnine Night: The final adventure of the episodic adventure path progressing through the 1e Promethean: the Created supplements centers around the setpiece of a vast nuclear God-Machine discovered beneath Detroit.
Hunter: the Vigil: You can see the seeds of Rose teasing out the ideas of Demon: the Descent in the presentation of greater demons. The sample demon, Mr. White, dreams of returning to some state of perfect clockwork reality, and shares the compulsion towards punishment of sin that's exhibited by Mr. Blue in Midnight Roads, another proto-demon.
The Danse Macabre: The additional covenants presented in Danse Macabre include the Holy Engineers, a cult of visionary Kindred working within the mythology of the Voice of the Angel story.
Imperial Mysteries: Multiple allusions are made to ways in which the God-Machine might interact with or pertain to the Realms Supernal and its exiled gods.
>>44164056
Special mention: Rites of Spring contains, among its contradictory tales of the origins of the True Fae, a story about dispassionate angels of fate gone rogue that, while I'm pretty sure it was not written as a reference to the God-Machine, can easily be reinterpreted into the cosmology of Demon.
Likewise, while it doesn't go explicit, Asylum lent its opening fiction to the God-Machine Chronicle Fiction Anthology, and its sample setting of Bishopsgate Psychiatric Hospital includes a couple notable instances of the number four in its architecture and history, as well as the journals of a former director who became obsessed with the Book of Revelation after being mysteriously lobotomized (a snippet from which makes references to the Moon belonging to God alone) and a former patient who was kidnapped and implanted with devices that allowed him to be controlled by Shaver-esque "Deros" who sent him to murder another former Bishopsgate director in prison,* to say nothing of the "vast complex web of flesh" inside the walls.
>>44164009
So what your saying is there shouldn't be laws to stop your boss from firing you because your black?
I prefer nwod, but i dont hold anything against owod and its fans seem like alright chaps.
>>44164587
I don't into nWoD, what's the problem with Geist?
>>44164597
Its fluff was incoherent, its mechanics were ridiculously overpowered, and the game in general was very unfocused. Being a Sin-Eater is all upsides and no downsides (and most of the upsides are described in terms of shit like "WHORES AND COCAINE!"), and Sin-Eaters have no real reason to do anything interesting.
It sucks ass
Bloodlines 2 now
>>44164882
>Google Scholar tends to be behind paywalls, in my experience.
>not browsing for free from your local university
>>44165037
Twice as many bugs on release!
No wesp5 patch for years!
>>44165037
New Vampire with it's more complex politics, funner Disciplines (in 2e anyway), and loss of fishmalks is superior.
>>44165137
>Less clans
>Less disciplines
>Idiotic factions made up of Christians and wiccans among others
>Superior
I mean you can like it if you want, but I didn't end up liking anything about it at all.
>>44165137
And miss out on the delicious metaplotting and how it fits into the canon? No way.
>>44164587
>He's also pretty much the only person in the world who likes Geist,
C'mon mang, dat Underworld book is breddy good, and some of the ideas for villains in Geist are—hold on, there's someone I need to agree with.
>>44164643
Yes, yes, and yes. Everything you said is undeniably true. Also, parts of the book are missing. It was by dint of a decent ST that we managed to have a good time with it. But the same could be said with any rushed game that was in dire need of play-testing and proper editing before being put to print, so that's not really arguing in its favour, if anything, that'd be a desperate plea rooted in sentimentality alone. I recall way back when people listed reasons for Sin-Eaters to do things, you replied back on how those were all rather contrived reasons,... What I'm trying to say, Senpai, is that I'm enamoured and made to swoon by your fervent, passionate criticisms of relatively unpopular game-lines.
>>44164742
>little box of evil
Lemarchand's box?
>>44165332
>I recall way back when people listed reasons for Sin-Eaters to do things, you replied back on how those were all rather contrived reasons,... What I'm trying to say, Senpai, is that I'm enamoured and made to swoon by your fervent, passionate criticisms of relatively unpopular game-lines.
...What?
>>44165476
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoW9czgQBqE
>>44147452
There was a txt dump of a manuscript a couple days ago
>>44165197
Do you know how many Vampire books were published? Many. It'll take ages to read.
>>44165440
Little box of "Janitor thinks our conversation is in violation of US law somehow"
>>44165552
Janitors don't remove things only because they violate US law. They remove them because it's off-topic. I know because that's what my Warning was for.
Hey, mod/janitor? Thanks for deleting half the shitty off-topic posting. You're a cool dude.I only wish you could also delete the other idiots shitting up the thread, but there'd be precious little left when you were done.
>>44165476
I feel like he's saying:
"Thank god someone cared enough about Geist to be this informed and involved in listing its flaws."
It also feels like he's mocking you, but that could be because of the general shitty tone of the thread, and a bit of Poe's Law.
>>44159236
You're using 1950's medical terminology, and 200 BC's political terminology as insults, so you really don't have much of a leg to stand on, do you, you bundle of sticks?
Languages evolve. Fucking get over it.
>>44144101
Personally, I feel like they should have used a stronger name change. I understand the logic in >>44150675, who was the best post in this thread, but I feel like they should have taken a further step. It feels too much like they've just been shouldered out of their own IP. Call it something like "The Dark World", or "Shadowed Lives" or something equally gothic and dumb, but keeping the "Of Darkness" makes me feel like they're just limping along.
All I want out of Onyx is a mostly function Scion 2e, and something for Exalted 3e that isn't on fire. If they can deliver that, I don't care.
To further discussion, I was unaware that the nWoD had had second editions in the past couple years. Can someone give me a quick summary of any notable changes? How is VtR 2e different from VtR?
>>44165166
>>44165197
Which are your favourite clans?
>There are people out there that have a personal vendetta over the revival of the old game lines.
>There are people out there that don't want you to have fun.
>There are people out there that want to reduce your gaming options.
>Of all the flavours they could have been, they had to choose salty.
>Instead of being happy for you, they had to be completely ass-blasted.For the first time, the drama isn't a Mage related flamewar.
>>44165644
>something for Exalted 3e that isn't on fire.
It'll just be lists of Charms and items.
As for the nWoD 2e stuff? It's VtR etc. for God-Machine Chronicles.
>>44165166
>Less Clans
More is not always better, the Settites and The Assemites and the Salubri with later the Tremere all having various flavors of "Vampires with Blood Magic" did not magically make VtM richer. Bloodlines in VtR make it all moot because you can have all the different vampires you want.
>Less disciplines
Again, some bloodlines get their own added in splatbooks. Also Devotions where you can mix two disciplines you create hybrid powers.
>Idiotic factions made up of Christians and wiccans among others
So. . . same as oWoD? Invictus is the Camarillia only slightly less stuck up its own ass, Lancea Sactum and the Circle of the Crone are basically bullshit dark mysticism that was the Sabat's bread and butter only without (most of) the puppy kicking evil. Anarchs and Cathians are till 3rd/5th wheels. And if we are talking about More > Less, then nWoD wins becase 5 Covnants are more than 3 major factions in Masquerade
The search function will help with narrowing in on the particulars, also there's a post index with relevant links to the individual issues that have come up in relation to how the various IPs OP have been handled, nWodD 2e included
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29069
>>44165644
>I only wish you could also delete the other idiots shitting up the thread
You mean all of your posts?
>>44165501
I'm just not sure how one sentence describing what was bad about Geist counts as fervent, passionate criticism. I could DO fervent, passionate criticism about why turning the game about ghost mediums given a second chance but who now have one foot permanently in the land of the dead into hookers-and-cocaine unstoppable superheroes was a bad idea, but that'd mostly just be self-indulgent.
>>44165644
>Ban dodging to insult someone who can't reply anymore.
pretty sad anon.>>44144101
>>44165685
>>44165766
Hey man, people get excited when you talk about things they care about. Especially if few others talk about them.
Think about it, 2/3rds of this thread is people having a huge fight over which world of oppressive, constant noir tones is a better one to pretend to be a vampire gypsy is. To a normal person, this whole thread looks fucking insane. But to the people who've invested time, attention, and love into the lines, it's important.
>>44165740
>>44165814
I know there's no way to prove it, being on an anonymous message board, but this is my second post. I'm just in here because it was the only thread on the catalog that caught my interest, before I learned it was basically an edition war that turned to a gender politics fight.
I just wanted to thank the janitor for ending it, but point out he could have cast the net a little wider, since from my thread, he seems to have hit one side a lot harder than the other.
If I was ever going to learn how to ban dodge, it'd be for something a lot more than mocking a gender politics fight. I spent 4 years in a liberal university, I can mock those in my sleep.
>>44165696
I forgot GMC was a rules revision, and not just an insertion of an over-plot. Nowhere in my area carried the books for a while, so I lost track.
Guess I'll go find out what all changed, since I still have a couple of hours to kill.
>>44165913
>Guess I'll go find out what all changed, since I still have a couple of hours to kill.
I think the major differences are Beats and Condition Cards.
>>44165913
The way experience is gained was completely changed (and basically for the worse, as now it's contingent on doing specific things during the game, rather than the session-review format it was in 1e). They changed combat (weapon damage and armor add and subtract successes respectively, which did fix the problem of the Desert Eagle in 1e being the most accurate and reliable handgun ever invented, and also now Defense includes your rating in Athletics, which makes your deefense score huge and turns non-firearms fights into whiff-fests that occasionally produce hits for like 4 health boxes, while guns ignoring Defense and automatically adding their damage rating to successes makes them even MORE insanely lethal). They also added a more robust system for social maneuvering (i.e. convincing someone to do something they don't want to do), but the Impressions system makes it basically useless - you have to build up a certain number of successes to succeed, but if the person has an "average" impression of you, for example, you only get to roll once per WEEK of in-game time.
The Chronicles of Darkness rulebook also adds new equipment rules and a system for handling investigations and mystery stories, as well as a "build your own horrible gribbly" section.
psssst
oblivion won oWoD
the final great maelstrom rose up and ate the world
maybe it's silly cousin in the abyss will rise up and eat the nwod too
man, it gets me hard just thinking about it
praise be the void
>>44166318
>oblivion won oWoD
Orpheus.
>>44166337
do not resist the inevitable, only try to comprehend the empty truth of this existence
life is a burden, the void will set us free
join oblivion
we have the best grandmother
become a spectre today!
>>44166367
Sir, I do not give two fucks about your faggy-ass nihilism cult. I am getting paid to remove spookies, and that is exactly what I am going to do.
>>44166403
Oohhhkaaayyy.
but hey man, if you ever feel the urge to kill the world and then die yourself, which is probably gonna be the case sooner or later given the inclinations of your superior, you know where to find us
chillin' at the bottom of the umbra, gnawing away at the firmanent of this reality
you can come join us any time
aaaanytime
we're one big happy family down here
yep
love you
>>44166318
I think Ammut is closer to Oblivion then anything else in nWoD.
>>44166610
Check your mail, I sent you something.
>>44166681
I don't make use of Mummy's fluff at all.
The Abyss' aesthetics are pretty damn close. Greater Abyssal Entities are roughly comparable to how I portray the Neverborn at this point.
>>44166684
>checks gmail
>checks phone
>checks MW
>checks various sites
>checks gmail again
>nothing
You're disappointing me here, Anon.
Or is this an in-joke that's flown completely over my head?
>>44166813
I was suggesting that I might have sent you a letter bomb.Or self-help books.
>>44166829
Aw, I thought you were fucking magic or were a friend of mine who also frequents /tg/ who guessed it was me or something. But man, that joke is too subtle for 4chan.
Oh well. Schopenhauer was right, you know. Behind the scenes of life there is something pernicious that makes a nightmare of our world.
Oblivion is best faction. Let's join hands in jolly cooperation with Pentex and the Nephandi and the Raveners and show everyone the true meaning of this world.
>>44165766
>ghost mediums given a second chance, who're into hookers-and-cocaine .
I'm telling ya, it could work with the right Storyteller. Clive Barker would be all over that, hookers'n hooks. It could have worked the first time they wrote it, but they screwed up on the editor's desk, and with the project lead.
>>44166928
>Spectres working together with Pentex
>the Wyrm and Oblivion are basically the same shit
>sect of Nephandi literally called fucking Malfeans
>the Raveners would be totally up for this
Christ almighty. And they would have been more organized and enthusiastic than pretty much any other group, too. The only thing separating them was gamelines. How did the cWoD even last as long as it did?
>>44165913
>get excited
Explicitly.
>>44165913
>noir tones
Ah yes, the unsentimental style of American crime writing for which the games are famed for. Who could forget the hard-boiled detectives and femme fatales which feature prominently in them?Mage Noir really sets the mood for the 1940's just right.
>>44165818
>Lasombra are social Darwinists, predators, elegant and inhuman and with...
>...a wicked sense of humour.
Pffft!
>>44166036
>"build your own horrible gribbly" section.
How does it hold up? I am as hard as diamonds for this part alone.
>>44130708
>Do their premade "urban legend" monsters FINALLY include gray aliens in flying saucers that aren't excused away as being a manifestation of some other part of the cosmology (True Fae, Spirits, Astral Entities, etc.)? Always struck me as a bit of a blind spot in what otherwise tried to present itself (at least the blue books) as a generic horror system. If you mounted setting upon setting you ended up with a universe which acknowledged the possibility that fairies, spirits, ghosts, demons, angels, demons, daemons, demons, geists, demons (seriously, I think like 5 of the game lines presented "demons" which were different things), but completely and absolutely objected to the possibility of extraterrestrial life, no matter how prevalent it is in the modern horror genre. Even as it went on do deal with nanotechnology, cyborgs, mad computer programs and other "science fiction-y" concepts, aliens always remained taboo.
Infinite Macabre
Infinite Macabre
Infinite Macabre
Infinite Macabre
Infinite Macabre
>>44167476
Completely non-Canon
Completely non-Canon
Completely non-Canon
Completely non-Canon
Completely non-Canon
Not even the same setting
Practically a different game using vaguely similar rules
>>44167476
>>44168272
What is Infinite Macabre?
>>44149265
> NWoD was ruined for not following CCP'S Canon
that is blatantly wrong and i refuse to read the rest of your post because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. The mmo was supposed to be oWoD and nWoD was never supposed to have much on the way of canon to begin with.
>>44168301
I will give you two days to work it out for yourself.
The clock starts now.
http://expirebox.com/download/6b0f7472d56bec64e5152b77cf4dc68d.html
>>44170644
>This file is password protected
>>44168301
>Suggestions and rules shifts on how to incorporate the World of Darkness into a space opera game.
>Rules for starships and starship combat
>Guidance on making your own alien species
>>44170693
>Shiggy shoo, what kind of shit are you trying to pull here kid.
Oh gawd, dammit. I pushed the wrong button. Hold on, hold on. This wasn't meant to be a ransomed file. Let me re-upload this published work against the presumed wishes of its rightful owners. Okay, there we go:
http://expirebox.com/download/3cc436f183adfa77aa83332b09610842.html
>>44168272
>Completely Non-Canon
Do you blow a fresh wad every time you crush my dreams? Do you have some kind of dream trampling fetish you sick degenerate? Do you grind or press dreams up in some kind of dream-vice and snort the powdered remains?
>>44147506
>the whole theme of Beast exists to stroke off and reaffirm the otherkin subculture
I am so tired of this shitting on Beast. I don't care for some of the SJW examples in book either, but they're a legitimate splat which closely parallels Vampire in managing a Hunger they never asked for in a world that rejects them on a fundamental level. They bridge the gap between sleeping sheeple and the more overt supernaturals of the WoD, but the duality of their identity, in that they are literally two separate entities stuck together a la Hitoshi Iwaaki's Parasyte, puts their humanity in question & in danger in ways that a vampire's corruption could never present. it's more old World of Darkness than new, because it's a clear theme of personal modern horror with anti-hero burdens that tie into other splats. Heroes are their version of Mage-like Paradox, punishing vulgar use of powers, Satiety revolving around and in sync with vampire's need for blood, managing of stats and condition to utilize Horror's Atavisms and imposing Lair traits on the world has similarities to Werewolf, and Changling elements intertwining with interacting with the Dreamscape.
If you can't tell a good Beast story, at least try to make them a sidekick in a different splat, but don't write it off as edgy otherkinning. They're a rare encounter archetype that's perfect to super-impose on some of the pre-existing humans that were abnormally powerful but had no explicit powers, like some of the old Pentex Board of Directors.
>>44171347
>Anti-hero
>Has to torture people to exist
Nah.
Also you need to get over the fact that most people hate your terrible, terrible species.
>>44171347
>I am so tired of this shitting on Beast.
I misread that as:
>I'm so tired of shitting on Beast.
4:11 AM.
>>44171448
>Punisher
>has to shoot pedos to continue to get published
HOW Beasts deal with their hunger defines their stories. They can be played as self-hating, starving their Beast and on the run from all the nightmares they're causing by not feeding the Beast regularly. They can be Carnage-tier psychopaths. They can be focused and stealthy, starting an urban legend around deaths or abuse in specific abandoned hospital while maintaining a day job cover at the other end of the city.
>>44171598
It doesn't matter. You're not a hero. You're vermin that needs to die.
>>44171598
>Punisher
>has to shoot pedos to continue to get published
That's nonsense. Punisher can also feed mafiosos to polar bears, cut crooked cops piece by piece and hang human tracifers by their entrails.
>>44171347
>they're a legitimate splat
Hahaha, noooo.
>>44171637
and you can tell that story, and make it interesting. Vampires need to die too. Wraiths need to stay die
>>44172646
>Wraiths need to stay die
Assuming we're talking about oWoD, since that's where the term "Wraith" exists - arguable. Depends on a lot of cosmological setting decisions the ST makes, such as what the Underworld actually represents at the end of the day. After all, Transcendence may very well lead to reincarnation, so the only permanent death would be Oblivion, and therefore Wraiths should really do their best to not stay die.
>>44172826
Reincarnation is the same as death. Everything you are permanently erased in all ways, your soul just being used a new material for someone else.
>>44172883
You can access and draw from your past lives. The soul is an eternal substance always seeking to reach greater heights. You must start over yet again, but this iteration of yourself is undoubtedly your incarnation. Perhaps this particular manifestation will finally attain Ascension? Perhaps Golconda? Or perhaps you'll at last give in to the encroaching force of entropy - physical, mental, and spiritual - that now seeks to swallow the world. In the World of Darkness, time is dwindling. You should start searching for your answer.
>>44149563
Sure, but then the Gameline developers tell you the beasts are n the right. Like flat out.
Heck, there's even a line Beasts use against hunters "Who's the real monster here". And the Hunter's supposed to be all introspective and go "shit you're right".. Like they're some knid of idiot.
>>44172826
Is Geist that different from Wraith?
I like what they've done with Changeling so far, which beyond maybe Geist and Mage are the only CofD lines I care about. Beast, which seems to have most of these issues people bring up, was shit from the get go.
>>44173037
>Someone completely different with none of your personality, memories, or identity.
>You
Haha, no.
>>44159198
Anon, WoD has always been politcally pushing the envelope, just back in he 90s it was cool to do so by their demographic.
>>44171347
>it's more old World of Darkness than new, because it's a clear theme of personal modern horror with anti-hero burdens that tie into other splats
That's entirely the problem with Beast. Keep oWoD themes in oWoD.
>>44173140
That conversation was about media in general.
>>44173140
No, see, in the old days, WoD was (politically neutral/followed my politics in lockstep) until (they stopped writing about my favorite kind of monster/were taken over by my political enemies). Things were different, honest!
>>44171347
Even the writers don't know what a good Beast Story is.
Matt has a Beast actual play thread on rpg.net and one of the first things he posts in there is "I have no idea what a Beast story is supposed to look like".
So Beast lets me explore some of the themes of Vampire without being a faggot. Good times.
>>44173257
Found it:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?759812-Beast-The-Primordial-Roots-in-the-Community&p=19166848#post19166848
>Make it a Beast story. Still figuring out what that means, but delving into darkness? Building a Legend? Expanding a Lair? Matt's character has room to add a Chamber, so that'll be fun.
>>44173287
Actually the opposite, if you play Beast you're playing a representation of a faggot lashing out at those who are not like him.
This rage is deserved because they are the good guys, while the guys trying to stop you from hurting people that want to normalize society are the bad guys. You're literally fighting society to keep being a gay molester.
>>44161978
>Isn't that because the current WoD general is supposed to cover both?
Yet whenever we try to have one, this happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHNJPsCDSqo
>>44149102
>Too busy fighting wars.
Fucking welfare queen.
>>44173089
Holy shit yes. Geist and Wraith are extraordinarily different. On top of Ghosts being rather irrelevant in general in the nWoD, Geist takes a pop-goth fiesta approach to interactions with the dead. The splat is broken as hell and has no real intrinsic danger to their conflicts. Wraith, by comparison, was unique in that it outright mostly took place in the Umbra, the setting being a washed-out, practically post-apocalyptic feeling Underworld, and had great coverage of its political and philosophical landscape in addition to a pinpoint focus on your character's pressing personal issues.
nWoD's Underworld is far more themepark-based (Wraith had an equivalent to the Dead Domains in the Far Shores, but they were not the whole focus) and wasn't really relevant to the setting at large in any impressive way; I could point to the nWoD's modular design as a reason for this, but things like Abyssal Intruders and the the True Fae, in spite of being splat-specific, have no trouble coming off as significant (and threatening) by comparison.
Wraith, when taken into consideration, did not feel so irrelevant, with many of its (very concerning for the WoD at large) setting problems easily bleeding over when the myriad necromancers of other splats made use of them carelessly (watching a victimized Wraith controlled by a Giovanni abruptly get shadow-eaten, murder the Giovanni, then turn on the rest of the room was not fucking funny).
Well, what it really comes down to is that Geist is a much more carefree game, while Wraith is more serious with more at stake. They're quite different, and that's okay.
>>44173257
In my experience, Beast games are about running into other monsters and getting dragged into their shit.
>>44173113
Did you just not read the "remembering past lives" part of that post or something? Do you need me to explain to you how reincarnation of your immortal essence works? Have you never actually studied the eastern philosophical idea that life as we experience it is, in essence, an act, and that behind this act is the player, and the player, or the self - as it's called in Hinduism, the atman - is you?
In some relevant mythologies, this self is permanent, individual, and unchanging, similar to more western conceptions of the soul (Gnosticism). More typically, it is merely an aspect of a greater whole, an absolute principle that has split itself and that you and all life is ultimately a piece of (Hinduism, Sikhism, Kabbalah). In Buddhism, the self is wholly illusory and one seeks to escape Samsara, the cycle of reincarnation into a world of suffering, by liberating oneself from this erroneous belief.
Just because you incarnate into a new shape that does not -presently- have your memories or personality does not mean it isn't another iteration of yourself. In the first place, reincarnations tend to have echoes of their past selves within their present lives, continuing on a karmic legacy.
So if you're so concerned with the continuation of your identity, find a magical method of dredging up the memories of your former selves. Awaken as a Mage or something. I don't fucking know. The point was you want to keep your soul going because ending up in the Void is just going to speed up the end times.
>>44174198
That self is not you and you do not remember your past lives. To call this you is to call the ecosystem you. You are a part of it, but it is not in its totality yourself.
You also miss that we're talking about reincarnation in a western inspired afterlife system, where the conceptions are fused.
>>44173629
the scariest thing about Wraith was potentially being hammered into ghost coins or some object like a chair or something. At least if you were flesh-scupted by a Tzimsce into a chair, you had to be fed and probably died eventually, and finally got freedom. But you get turned into shit as a ghost? You stuck, hombre. It's ogre
>>44174143
A solid choice. I don't like the idea of being a very specific killer filling a very specific legend just to relive being Grendel or some shit. Survival sounds like it would be the most interesting
>>44173321
>>44173257
So do other players put up let's plays of WoD like this on that site? I'd be curious to see some of the more obscure lines like Mummy or Changling played.
>>44174458
I've seen a Mummy one that was good, and a ton of Changeling ones. Use their search to find them.
>>44153920
>The "fight" isn't over because, for instance, every time queer characters show up in fiction or any time some kind of fictional narrative deals with the issues of the minority, people in the real world go "do we really even need to talk about this?"
Not every time, but I frequently find myself wondering why we need to. You're explicitly calling us out as "the other" which is a way of separating us from the very society you purport to be welcoming us to.
>>44174407
It's why I'm so happy about Horrors in the new corebook. It lets Beasts run into a bunch of weird shit. I've said before that the Beast corebook would have been heavily improved with a build your own monster section.
>>44173089
The closest thing to Wraith in nWoD is Promethean, actually. They're both games about how your existence is horrible, horrible suffering that should never have happened in the first place, but there's a canonical happy ending that you can actually reach (as opposed to just vague hinted-at shit like Golconda).
>>44171347
>but they're a legitimate splat which closely parallels Vampire in managing a Hunger they never asked for in a world that rejects them on a fundamental level.
>they never ask for
Actually, becoming a Beast requires asking for it deliberately and voluntarily. You have to choose to become a Beast. Vampirism can be inflicted on you against your will or without your consent.
>>44174308
>That self is not you and you do not remember your past lives.
You have the potential to. You have the potential to reawaken a continuous identity, should you have the occult means and choose to do so. Think of it as a temporary bout of amnesia in an eternal existence.
>You also miss that we're talking about reincarnation in a western inspired afterlife system, where the conceptions are fused.
Yes, and?
The most developed idea for reincarnation in the oWoD was established between Demon: The Fallen, Wraith, and WTA. WTA asserts reincarnation as a setting conceit (and various related plot devices concerning past lives), with Mage stepping back and neither supporting nor denying this notion. The implication of DTF is that system of reincarnation and the realm that would become the Underworld were created by the rebel angels during the War of Wrath so that they could recycle individual human souls into the living world after death, and Harrowings are a relic of this. This indicates that souls are continuous.
Otherwise, the absolute nature of the soul is never affirmatively specified in the oWoD. There are consistent features - they're sexless when lacking a base identity, they precipitate splat-based sources of power like quintessence and faith, stuff like that, but what souls *really* are beyond their functions and where they come from is up in the air at the end of the day.
So nothing I'm asserting is contradictory here. If you really want to have a continuous identity surpassing your deaths, it should be possible in the setting if you strive to achieve it.
>>44175031
I'm not implying it's contradictory, but that understanding is impossible using only purely eastern thinking. You need to consider western impressions of the soul and how Wraith fits into them.
>>44173629
>watching a victimized Wraith controlled by a Giovanni abruptly get shadow-eaten, murder the Giovanni, then turn on the rest of the room was not fucking funny
I dunno, that sounds hilarious to me. Sounds like the Giovanni got exactly what he deserved.
I feel bad for the Wraith though.
All WoD is trash.
Play Kult, brothers.
>>44175012
Actually you don't, it's just customary to. If you refuse to be Devoured by another Beast they can just go "too bad lol." I'm not really sure if that's the case with spontaneous Devourings though.
>>44175698
1995 called, they want their game back.
>>44175092
>Sounds like the Giovanni got exactly what he deserved.
Well, yes, but then you're in the same room as a Spectre who, having previously been the wraithly attendant to a Giovanni, presumably has Arcanoi that can cross the Shroud. Since you're dealing with the Giovanni, you are probably Kindred, and Kindred are, in general, comparatively lacking in options when it comes to dealing with spiritual beings. This means that, barring fortuitous circumstances, you and your coterie are now -consummately fucked-.
>former Haunter
>high Pandemonium
>high Outrage
I could not get off Mr. Bones' Wild Ride.
>>44176090
>Shithead vampire bystanders are also probably fucked
Not sure how this makes it less hilarious.
Run, bitches, this is what Fear Frenzy is for!
>>44176114
>Gangrel
>Now look even more like an ugly dog
t-thanks ghost
>>44176133
Well you DID run like a bitch.
Now you look like a bitch.
