So of the five lightsaber styles, do any encompass this style, where you create false openings and use force fuckery to fool your opponents? Full album here for those who haven't seen it http://imgur.com/gallery/rXss2
Should we create a sixth style like this?
>>44137362
In one of the EU books, (the one with Scout, can't remember its name) it states that 'Padawans, even before they start lightsaber training, learn how to counter Force kinesis.'
lolEU notwithstanding, it should probably be assumed that a bunch of Jedi would've figured out how to do this if it were useful.
There are seven styles.
>>44137362
>Five lightsaber styles
>>44137362
>false openings
In the business, that goes by the professional term of "feint." You've probably never heard about it.
>>44137362
>five
>>44137478
Yet Yoda got thrown around by Sheev and the EU no longer exists.
>>44137569
What, do you not count Vaapad or something?
If you were only saying three then I'd understand you were talking about after Luke reformed the order and everything, but where are you getting five?
>>44137362
Had an idea for one but it's kinda weird.
See, the first step is to turn off your lightsaber and walk towards your opponent casually.
The second step was to barely dodge the opponents strike while simultaneously activating the lightsaber and striking the opponent. The speed of the strike, the lack of mass from the blade, and the speed of the ignition make the attack almost impossible to defend against. Most of the skill is in predicting your opponent and launching a perfect counter attack.
However, what's more deadly is the mindset of the practitioner. Suppress fear and you'll split your attention, slowing your reactions. Be consumed by fear and you'll attack prematurely. The ideal is to master fear, accepting the sensation but keeping a core of calm. Often, the tension of the style is enough not only to affect the practitioner but also his opponent.
Those that practice this style customize their lightsabers to activate faster or alternate between an extremely short blade and a somewhat longer blade. However, nobody practices this style alone. Not just because it offers no blaster defense but because it's too stressful to use regularly.
I've given it a temporary name Void but I'm open to ideas.
>>44137736
"Sheev did it" is not a good example.
Sheev did a LOT of things that could be considered...unnatural
Plus don't we SEE Obi-Wan basically force parrying Anakins force attack IN THE PREVIOUS FUCKING SCENE anyway? Thus showing that yes, Jedi are taught how to counter force pushes and pulls in a fight.
Or at the very least Obi-Wan knew how to.
>>44138289
To be fair, if it's not a passive block then using it as an attack still makes sense.
Jedi are also taught how to block lightsabers. Doesn't mean trying to hit them with one is a waste of time.
>>44137362
The better question is are there any styles that allow you to control and swing several active lightsabers with a combination of blasters to back it at medium-to-long range? Or would that go beyond any skill of any living sith and/or jedi?
>>44138458
I think it's a question of "Is there really nothing better you could be doing with that spare hand?"
I can't even remember if Anakin actually won in that force off either, which kind of implies that either blocking force attacks takes less raw-horsepower (that Anakin had in absolute spades) than attacking, or that Obi-Wan was really fucking good at it.
Or most likely a bit of both.
>>44138161
That's a technique, not a style. Moreso it assumes that the person you're fighting is slower at attacking than you are at dodging whatever kind of attack they use and that they aren't as patient with attacking. You're literally moving towards your opponent without your weapon ready while theirs is; granted it only takes a fraction of a second to activate but a fraction of a second versus a Jedi/Sith is very valuable.
Aside from that, it's the kind of technique that both the Sith and the Jedi might employ. The Jedi would love it for conquering your fears but hate it for being somewhat deceptive; the opponent may think you're surrendering and stop fighting. The Sith would love it because of conquering your fears also, but also because it's potentially intimidating for your opponent.
In the EU the Sith already use a similar technique by switching off their blade as an opponent is about to block and then reactivating as your hilt is right next to them and past their blade. The Jedi shun the technique because it's deceptive and a cheap shot.
>>44137362
Shien/Djem so mix best form. Switch from an unassailable fortress of saber blades to an unstoppable whirlwind at a moment's notice
Man, 'Hyperspace' is so cheeky.
>>44138518
Kreia did it. In fact, her entire boss fight was you running around fighting her floating lightsabers while she just stood there and...I dunno, took up Force Knitting. In my KOTOR game I actually ducked behind the door to the boss arena and the lightsabers tracked me down and tried to kill me while she stood way back in the arena.
I liked how most of the Dark Side lightsaber techniques ended with "torture at your leisure."
>>44139053
Pretty high risk high reward. They bring their saber down to block and they hit you in the face.
>>44139053
There was an actual study about lightsaber activation times in the movies, old and new trilogy, and it was conclude lightsaber take at least a quarter of a second to grow to full size, but that they can be more slowly activate, taking up to a full second. Usually done in slow starts. There seems to be a correlation between the saber activation time and the Jedi/Sith state of mind.
>>44139053
Pretty sure it was called 'Passing the Blade' in the EU.
>>44137362
No. Because (a) every lightsaber fight is fundamentally full of this and (b) pretty much by definition it's of less use vs. another force user
Light saber techniques should specifically take advantage of the fact that the blade has no weight. Form 7 is good for that.
>>44138771
Mostly, it depends on the lightsaber blade seeming to have weight when active and none when inert. This speeds up attacks dramatically.
On the other hand, you could also use the same technique to perform last minute parries. Most traditional fencing techniques use the blade nearest the hilt for defense although this isn't completely applicable for lightsabers.
>>44138621
> "Is there really nothing better you could be doing with that spare hand?"
Arguably, you should be doing everything from grappling to tossing crap with your off hand. Realistically, they should have blasters but that's kinda pushing the narrative.
FORMS II AND VII ARE THE BEST STYLES ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS A FORM III OR IV USING FAGLORD
>>44139904
Seeing them in use makes me wonder if they've got weight or not. For example, during episode 6 we see Luke all but beat Vader into submission with two handed strikes. If the blade was truly massless he might as well as be swinging a feather at his father. We also see Vader using beats against Obi-wan in episode 4 but that would be utterly meaningless to a massless blade.
>>44138161
Actually, this technique is a named thing, at least when i was going through the wiki a while back.
>>44137362
The Lightsaber forms are as much about manipulating some facet of the force as they are direct Saberfighting skills. And the 6th Form is all about using force kinesis with in itself, and the 7th form is all about aggression and misdirection, if that helps... anyone, somehow.
>>44140015
I assume that they use force powers to add mass to the blade when appropriate. The only times you would want a massless blade is if you're trying to block blaster fire or you are attacking without thinking it will get blocked.
>>44137362
Pretty sure the actual sixth style, Niman, was sort of this. Basically it was a jack-of-all-trades style that was easy to get the basics of, with moves intentionally left simple so the user could focus and use the Force more actively in combat.
Or form two, Makashii or whatever (Dooku's style) was basically fencing. Full of feints and parrys and shit. Plenty of room left over for Force fuckery as the style was very efficient and didn't drain power just to use like some of the other more acrobatic and aggressive ones.
In a very old rpg that a group of friends homebrewed, they managed to allow a rouge force user forcus on only a blaster, forgoing lightsabers. He focused all of his physical force based abilities to the point where he could pull Tie Fighters out of thin air and hold them from nearly any non-light speeds. This guy spent his time ducking from Jedi and Sith alike, roaming around with this insane power. A few times our group encountered him and the few times that we saw him fight he would literally grab a lightsaber blade and force it back into the handle, basically melting the damn thing from the inside. It defied all logic and reasonand it was the most bad ass thing that I'd ever seen.
>>44139053
The Sith ones are great
1. Do something tricky
2. Stab the Jedi when they don't expect it
3. Torture at-will
>>44140015
Two-handed strikes may be in anticipation of a clash or parry. You definitely don't want to be doing a half-assed one hand power swing if the enemy blocks with two hands.
>>44140329
Post more of the tactics.
>>44139163
Kreia was supposed to be casting a bunch of spells during the battle. And her control of the Force is almost unique; most Jedi and Sith couldn't do it.
>>44140329
Proton Torpedo reminds me of those sweet baseball swings from Force Unleashed
>>44140110
That's entirely conjecture without any standing in...well...anything.
>>44140590
But if the blade is truly massless then it doesn't matter how much strength or windup you've got. The defender has a mechanical advantage with the parry and another hand isn't going to make up the difference.
>>44140843
The blade is massless, but it has a lot of force emitting from the handle. That's why you have to hold it two-handed.
>>44140843
> and another hand isn't going to make up the difference.
It might. It certainly did for Luke. And it sure as hell has a better chance of making up the difference than it would with just one hand.
>>44140885
>>44140843
>>44140912
http://www.starwars.com/video/star-wars-featurette-the-birth-of-the-lightsaber
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIefj6dOhnM
Those flourescent tube lightsabers are funny.
>>44140912
No, this is a simple physics/geometry issue. If you parry near the hilt you've got a severe mechanical advantage. Unless the blade has actual mass swinging it harder isn't going to do crap.
>>44140885
Except when they hold it one handed. Granted, mostly this is in the prequel trilogy but we do see jedi hold their lightsabers single handedly. Dooku, for example.
>>44141449
What's your point?
>>44137362
>See Jedi and Sith fighting
>Shoot a blaster at the Sith
>He deflects it towards the Jedi
>Jedi deflects it back to him
>Sith deflects it back
>etc.
And so began the sport of Jedi Tennis.
>>44140015
It's mostly production related. Lucas originally wanted the lightsabers to have a lot of weight, but this got thrown out in the prequels in the transition to "flashy lightsaber duels"
>>44140015
The blade of the lightsaber is massless but it still transfers force like a rigid beam. Swinging it around still carries force through it. Once the beam contacts something that can produce a significant reaction force, it effectively becomes solid along the area of contact while still transferring energy.
Two-handed techniques allow you to produce more leverage during a clash as well as letting you pull on the lightsaber more in general. You've now got two arms pulling and swinging it around rather than one. Vader specifically used a very oppressive style that used his cybernetics limbs, supplemented with the Force, to practically break an opponent's defense by relentlessly battering their saber. Luke adopted a similar style since his only references were Kenobi (who only taught him Shii-Cho, the basics of the forms which use two-handed for blade control), possibly Yoda, and Vader.
>>44141018
Lightsaber duels never parry at the hilt. Look at the design you would just slice each other's lightsabers in half.
>>44138518
While it seems you have gotten an answer, how much do you want to bet that it takes a lot of raw power and finesse to really manage it properly seeing as you'd have to constantly be keeping them in flight and in control?
>>44139911
Isn't a force push effectively grappling a person and tossing them at potentially lethal crap anyway, or putting them off their footing at least? Seems to be a stronger version of grappling and then throwing that lowers the risk of the other guy hacking your limbs off with a laser sword for trying to grab them.
>>44137362
Star Wars is entirely governed by the Rule of Cool. "Light saber styles" is really "whatever some fuckwad that doesn't know anything about actual combat thinks is cool"
>>44139163
Man, Kreya really was Coldsteel-tier, wasn't she? I still love the game, but damn.
>>44146162
I dunno man. Seems like a pretty natural way of making an old one-armed woman be a dangerous opponent in the obligatory final lightsaber duel without going full sheev.
>>44145703
Star Wars is entirely governed by being the golden age of something. Golden age western elements, samurai sword dueling, dogfighting and ship battles right out of WWII, sword and sorcery heroism and mysticism, scifi golden age designs...
It's all elements from a dozen different golden ages of other genres refined and put together into a single cohesive setting.
>>44141018
>>44140843
Anger actually strengthens force users, it's almost a physical, tangible thing for them. Using two hands on a swing might just be the visual sign that they're tapping into that strength
>>44146162
Man, I remember one time in kotor 2 I had a character who was entirely focused on getting crits. Keen lightsabers, master critical strike, all that fun stuff. Ended up getting crits about 3/4 of all attacks iirc. Then I got to Kria's base on Malachor and started getting my ass handed to me time and time again.
Checked the combat logs, all the enemies were immune to critical hits. My entire build was useless. Don't think I've picked it up since.
>>44140329
Do all of the sith styles end with "torture at will"?
>>44148522
Yes.
Infact 'Torture at Will' is literally the first thing they teach you.
By doing it to you.
From now on, Torture at Will is my first and only move!
>>44137478
>it should probably be assumed that a bunch of Jedi would've figured out how to do this if it were useful
That comes with the implication that Star Wars is actually a living world where things are made up on their own and not the intellectual property of some of the most boring people in recent media history.
>>44141786
The blaster shot would probably destabilize after not long.
>>44137478
>the one with Scout, can't remember its name
Dark Rendezvous? I like that book.
The real problem is you assume this is purely traditional sword fighting with added tricks like force pushing and adding weight. Jedi fights are around 10% physical combat including force usage. The vast majority of the fight is an unseeable mental combat measured at the speed of neuron activation. All jedi during a fight use force sight, a sort of clairvoyance, that lets them see whats about to happen letting them place the blade and their body exactly where it need to be ahead of time. Naturally this preventative measure changes the future causing them to need to reorient again. This constant influx future battle precedes even basic clashes and is more akin to a chess match of knowing more moves ahead of your opponent than actual lightsaber combat. This is also why thered the "lull before the storm." Before each duel as both sides tap into their force sight and feel their opponent followed by a small almost formal clash of blades again to feel out how their opponent moves through the weave of the force. Skipping that crucial step is inherently dangerous as it leaves you entirely open letting only your boosted physical skills make up for the lack of force skills you employed which is why its usually done by sith alone.
Turning off your blade right before a clash only to turn it back on later is far far more difficult than it would seem to be as a master jedi would simply not go for the block and use a dodge instead making the attack useless so you'd never even go for it in the first place.
This sort of fighting is evident in how anakins "lowgroud attack" scene went. Obi-Wan wasn't just warning him of the inherent dangers of the move he was going to make, in his anger he wasn't even using force sight so it was also a "blind" jump and one Obi-Wan saw before he even thought of it telling him he was doubly handicapping himself in a fight against a master.
>>44149007
All this also combats the lightsabers inherent weakness, which is again not readily visible, it's gyroscopically stabilised due to the field generator keeping the blades plasma contained. This means it tends to vibrate a bit but also stay in whatever orientation its in. This requires brute forcing it to move, dexterity to do this action gracefully, and being added by the future knowledge of placement through forcesight. The blade is also solid so it does transfer the slight weight of the handle directly to the contact point but also is held there by its own gyroscopic effect making the blocks and attacks have an odd sense of weight. You wouldn't know it due to the robes but all jedi are incredibly strong as that strength is needed for proper saber control. Their already incredible physiques are enhanced by their connection to the force in a still as yet unexplained way, but nonetheless confirmed. So the actual attacks are now aided severely by the weapons own effects, the force, and the brutal strength of the wielders.
>>44139401
I believe the whole purpose of dual-phase sabers was almost instant length change.
>>44140912
>>44140885
>>44142576
Okay, look at >>44141017
at about 0:16 vader throws a lightsaber It spins around a point in the blade, not the hilt.
The blade has mass and there's no evidence that says they're massless.
>>44149821
>The blade has mass and there's no evidence that says they're massless.
Or it's just sloppy film making because they never expected anyone to analyze it to that depth.
>>44149821
Yes, it's already been covered. George originally intended for the lightsabers to be heavy weapons, like a broadsword.
When he started with the prequels, he changed it so lightsabers are much lighter weapons, essentially massless.
>>44149872
>>44149859
So who says the blades should be massless?
>>44140329
>Not all 3 steps torture at will
>>44146162
She is literally Ayn Rand IN SPESS
>>44149998
Lore.
>>44148498
The game was good in many ways, but it was so easy to make a character concept that was either entirely useless or completely overpowered.
It was about the point that I had my Jedi Guardian (max feats, minimum force bar) wipe the floor with a bunch of bounty hunters alone by spamming max Force Push (which at its highest level turns into something more like "Force Hurricane") that I realized the combat system was broken.
>>44149998
It's made of plasma and light held in shape by magnetic fields. Plasma is just super-heated gas. Gas is very light; heated gas, moreso. Compared to the weight of the hilt, with all of its mechanisms and materials, the blade is effectively massless.
>>44149872
Not to mention how he wanted the fights in the prequels to be more flippy and fast because Darth Vader was half-robot, old Obi Wan was old, and Luke was not super trained yet.
So I guess Maul was better than Vader, or whatever.
>>44150170
Why we never got a Sith from the same race as the multi armed podracer with a large number of double bladed sabers is beyond me.
Well it was that or a Gungan Jedi.
Important thing to remember is the Jedi use the force to predict movements. So the fight they're actually doing in real life is several thoughts behind what they're actually doing. This is also the same mechanism that lets them deflect blasters.
When a Jedi gets hit with something, it means they didn't see it coming in the Force.
>>44150253
>When a Jedi gets hit with something, it means they didn't see it coming in the Force.
Yuuzhan Vong, not even fucking once.
>>44150272
>Yuuzhan Vong
Hence the phrase, "lolEU"
>>44150253
Well, either that or what hit them was completely unavoidable.
Like orbital bombardment.
>>44150215
>Gungan Jedi
NotDark Bombad, lord of the sith.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat/Legends
Literally every single thing you have asked in this thread can be answered on Wookieepedia. They even have a page for turning the lightsaber on and off during combat.
>EU
Ask an EU question, get an EU answer.
>>44148522
I didn't choose the Sith life.
Sith life chose me.
>>44150253
Now see, this would be good for a form of mental chess.
True masters would both whip out sabers and then do that thing that they do in samurai movies. Shuffle around in a circle opposite each other, maybe changing stance or grip every so often.
Both are seeing into the future and predicting what the other would do and trying to maximise lethality and personal safety, but unwilling to begin in case the other has seen a good future. Maybe you could do some CGI trickery where you get ghostly 'after images' of potential beginnings to the fight that they both chose not to actualise.
To outsiders, it's two old men shuffling around. To experts, they're blazing with the force. Seeing, analyzing and discounting dozens or even hundreds of possible futures. Unless something entirely predictable from outside happens like a blaster shot, in which case the Jedi instantly blocks it and returns to the future sight shuffle. Surprising the novice and boring to the expert.
In the end, it's only one or two actual hits with a saber that decide the match. Flipping and blade to blade fights are a sign that the Jedi doesn't actually know what's going on and is winging it.
>>44150740
A true master of the Force doesn't need a lightsaber. They merely can kill the opponent with a touch.
Also could deflect lightsabers with their hands.
>>44150553
That actually might be cool.
>>44150783
Wasn't there only one of those and his very steps cracked the planets mantle he was on or something?
>>44150783
Extra reach.
But yeah, someone with absolute mastery would just hover around and have effective omniscience and insane telekinetic and mental manipulation abilities.
You don't really get those very often though. Couple dozen expert future sight swordsmen in the galaxy at once isn't too insane though.
>>44150820
There was three in the clone wars. Guy was like 1 million years old and so were his kids.
He mastered both sides of the Force and was in perfect balance. He powered an entire planet with his force powers and could stop lightsaber from working with a thought. He was scary powerful.
>>44150837
It's sort of like wizards.
Most are just little thaumaturges. Then you get decent wizards. Couple of 'masters' a generation.
But every so often, very rarely, you get an epic level wizard who immortalifies himself and the entire setting changes due to him simply existing.
>>44150740
>Maybe you could do some CGI trickery where you get ghostly 'after images' of potential beginnings to the fight that they both chose not to actualise.
Like in those Sherlock Holmes moviesbut better?
>>44150861
Oh no, these guys were responsible for managing the Force in the galaxy. Then Anakin caused them all to die. They were impossibly powerful though. They could cure or infect people with the dark side, bring back the recently dead, control the weather, and see years into the future. The son showed Anakin becoming Vader and him causing all the problems.
>>44150008
I mean they get to that part eventually, but you can't 'torture at will' someone who's actively preventing you from being able to 'torture at will'. Practical matters to address first. Work before pleasure.
>>44150066
The EU, now uncanon?
>>44150116
Unless that plasma has been compressed to a significant density.
>>44150883
I was thinking more Agent Smith dodging bullets. Except none of it is actually happening, the actual Jedi just stands still in the middle of it all. Weeaboo fightan really.
I think that might work better though.
>>44150913
Man. Quit laying shit at anakins feet. Its not his fault he has some "human disaster" field surrounding him. Dude had a hard life too. By age 8 he had some 20 year old queen peg him as her boytoy then had a hippy tell him he's this destiny child before kidnapping him and take him to his other hippy friends who also told him hes a destiny child.
>>44150928
Noooo. Canon lore. It means they can flippy dippy for sword handshakes to make the kids squeee.
>>44137362
I think Creating The Void is how you 1-hit kill someone in Jedi Knight 2. My friends always used to hop around trying to do it to eachother and I just... threw my lightsaber at them.
Poorly thought out Lightsaber designs:
>Light-Tonfa
>Activation switch on the rotating side handle
>When the jedi using it swings it round to trap it under his arm, he removes both his arms above the elbow and chops himself in half.
>>44151073
Worst part is the weight issue. All the weight is in the side and lower handle and the long handle is a lightsaber cutting out half the shit you can do with tonfas.
>>44137362
>Reverse gripping a sword
Why does this piss me off so much? It looks so retarded and unpractical.
>>44150928
Normal plasma on Earth (flames or lightning) has an average density of anywhere from 10^(-7) to 10^(-32) particles in a cubic meter. In interstellar space the density can be anywhere from 1 to 10^(-30) particles per cubic meter. The rest is just the energy radiating from those particles interacting with any atmosphere around it. If you pressurize it, that's going to drive up the temperature it needs in order to stay a plasma; you're trying to squeeze them together but you've got them in a state where they want to fly apart. That would increase the amount of energy you need in order to keep it both pressurized significantly (to where you can notice the weight at all) and keep it as a plasma.
>>44150803
No.
It's a 9gag meme.
>>44151198
I thought it was a Reddit meme.
>>44150837
He was also not real, even by Star Wars standards. He was the same sort of thing that Luke encountered in the cave on Dagobah.
>>44151145
You'd need to compress it anyway or you'd lack the density to actually cut stuff. At low densities you can't pass enough thermal energy to cut stuff.
>>44137362
I always interpreted lightsaber dueling as developing from ritual and stuff. Sure, you could that -and a Sith would- but it's against the spirit of things.
>>44151825
You can if there's enough energy radiating off of it. The substance of the blade means nothing: it's an energy weapon. It can do just as much damage as a steady stream of blaster shots. There's not just the energy of the plasma particles but also the frozen light constituting the blade that's producing the plasma.
Lightsaber combat was and always was based on samurai dueling. Which is why you saw a lot of standing around, head games, and jockying for posistion in the OT, because that was how sword fighting WORKED.
By the time the PT came out, wire-fu was a thing and martial arts movies had gotten crazy, which is why you suddenly have Jedi flipping around everywhere and all these flourishes. PT was emulating Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, OT was emulating Yojimbo.
>>44150553
You read my mind
