Power Gamers VS Meta Gamers
Go.
I vote
Depends on what you consider a metagamer.
I don't consider a guy who uses basic reasoning to figure out that blades and spikes don't work well on skeletons to be metagamers, but I do consider "I wanna make termites/gunpowder/some other bullshit" guys absolutely horrid.
>>44102673
"well we know hes casting X because Y (in regards to enemy), hit him!"
I change monster stats/weaknesses/descriptions to prevent 95% of all metagaming at my table.
Meta Gamers are undoubtedly worse because they are cheating on the same level as dice cheats, however I don't agree with some GMs who feel that every sort of basic logic from my 18 int wizard requires a roll to figure out. Power gamers are not inherently bad as long as they aren't doing it to the exclusion of all else or ruining everyone else's fun.
Meta gamers are far worse. Power gamers welcome challenges and are pretty easy to please ad long as you give them a reason to use their OP characters.
Meta gamers whine like bitches the instant you start invoking rule 0.
>GM sends a custom monster at the PCs
>Power Gamer: "Its go time!"
>Meta Gamer: "Wait, that monster shouldn't have that ability. You suck GM!"
>>44102963
I dont know the power gamer ive seen also gets super upset and bitches when anything gets through his 20+ AC
>>44102442
Meta gamers by far. I rarely have to deal with power gamers, but meta gamers are far more common as problem elements in my experience. It's amazing how so many people can't separate player knowledge and character knowledge, or need to speak up during other people's turns to tell them their best course of action, or shout out constantly how much damage they've done to blab on about enemy hit points, or whine and complain that you're not running the game how you want to run it.
Bitch! If you want to run a game, run one!
>>44102974
If I recognize a Power Gamer in my game I usually tell them ahead of time that I'll be using similar tricks for my encounters. They usually don't complain if you warn them, especially if you show them the stats and stuff after the encounter so they know you weren't just bsing them.
As for Meta Gamers, I'll never forget the time a PC pulled out a monster stat book and started telling me the stats of my own monsters...
I know most monster stats by heart because I'm GM'd for too long. I am not incapable of metagaming because I simply know what most monsters are capable of. For most GMs if you know them it's easy to tell what changes they would make. Should I just make bad decisions purposefully?
>>44103070
consider what your character would know. There's usually also descriptions that monsters have for "common knowledge" like "statues = basilisks" but not explicitly "it looks at you to statue you up" unless you have a higher score.
Play your character, not yourself, fucknugget
>>44103070
>Should I just make bad decisions purposefully?
You should play the role of your character. Even if you personally know it's a bad decision, your character might not. By the sounds of it, probably doesn't. Add a "what would my character do?" filter to your decision-making when you're in the player seat.
>>44103103
And this is why I normally play high int characters, so I don't have to deal with separating knowledge to this degree. This is because of the exact reason of common knowledge being extremely vague as a concept. I should know, I've looked through the fucking bestiaries for most editions and they make knowledge checks a fucking broken joke.
>>44102442
You do realize that powergaming, i.e. pushing the rules to the point of breaking for the sole purpose of having a mechanically more powerful character, is a form of metagaming?
I only metagame when absolutely batshit insanely stupid shit happens. Like the GM claiming that something is heavenly AND demonic at the same time. Or when the GM is just boosting the players up to ridiculous and bullshit levels like 72 STR and shit.
>>44103124
>knowledge checks
Kind of unrelated to your actual post but I had a metagamer using bardic knowledge all the time as an excuse for metaknowledge he shouldn't have and a catch all knowledge skill. I ended up feeding him wrong information about things every third or fourth check just to fuck with him because "Thats what the legends and tales tell of x"
What's worse?
People who make threads that consist of an image with one line of greentext, or people who run quests?
Metagamers are absolutely worse. There's a kid at my table that always fucking tries to have conversations with party members that are not anywhere close to him in-game. Like we'll have two people go off to search for something, and he'll address the characters by name, and say things like "X, shouldn't you look behind the bookshelf?" And he's not even in the fucking room at the time! Like jesus. I get that he's new but this shit isn't that hard.
>>44103070
This is always the hardest fucking thing for me. I don't think I've gotten good enough at roleplay where I can do things that are intentionally self-destructive to my character when metaknowledge would prevent it. I know it's something I have to work on, but it just kills me inside for the time being.
>>44102442
Metagamers are far worse
Powergamers you just have to tailor challenges for. Not to be a dick, but so that they actually face a challenge now and again.
>>44103279
Quests
Metagamers are the reason I can not run in modern settings.
Either has to be fantasy past or fantasy future or they start bring how to books and pamphlets to games, then pouting when I tell them they cant use them.
>>44103279
The first, because you can easily filter out quests.
There is literally nothing wrong with powergaming because it's not an attitude.
There's no difference between someone who doesn't roleplay and powergames, and someone who just doesn't roleplay at all.
>>44103070
That's why I change the monsters around so that the players don't know what the fuck to expect.
For example: a medusa doesn't petrify with her gaze, but with her screech.
If, instead of metagaming out of their ass, they asked me what they know of the medusa I would've told them without any problems.
But because they decided to blindfold themselves and stuff of the sort... well, a few of them are some nice backyard decorations now.
They still managed to kill her and now they stopped assuming they know everything about monsters.
A power gamer is a type of meta gamer.
>>44102442
That unholy combination of both - the dreaded WAAC faggot
>>44102442
Meta gamers by far. With power gaming at least you can have fun with it by playing with the system. But with meta gamers it begins to feel like a video game with the lack of immersion.
And I know immersion is thrown around a lot, but there's no point playing in a *role play* game when you don't role play.
>>44104591
>there's no point playing in a *role play* game when you don't role play.
Why is this simple concept so hard for some people to understand
>>44104539
I think if you pulled that kind of shit with something well-known like a medusa without ample hints, most people would start calling you out for That Guying.
>>44102629
getting crushed by the 4th wall
I dig it
>>44104616
I would warn them before the game starts that I do my monsters differently than in the books, so that they have to actually think before they charge in like Leroy Jenkins.
And if they don't listen... they will reap what they sow.
It's a fucking game, powergaming and metagaming are both perfectly valid ways to play.
>>44104751
If the group is okay with it... which most of the time it is not.
>>44102673
>termites
What?
>>44102629
Good shit anon
>>44104553
You're thinking of a munchkin. Power Gamers will find a way to make their character background/progression make sense in-setting. Munchkins will not.
>>44102442
At least powergamers have to put effort in knowing the system and setting, metagamers manage to ruin games without putting in any work.
Powergaming is the player equivalent of ToH or something, as long as people know what they're getting into, it's fine. Metagaming is the player equivalent of railroading of fudging rolls, it shows someone is unwilling to learn or change and just wants their way.
>>44104782
No, that is character optimisation, which is picking a character or gimmick and making it the best they can. Power gaming is choosing the best class available and the best feats and the best everything, drpending on what they think is the best.
in my latest game our DM basically had us play a game where we were all by definition meta players. Anything we knew, the characters did, so it was akin to a tabletop mmorpg.
it was actually surprisingly fun because a)the group of players were all cool b)the dm was great and c)no one tried exploiting anything
the dm usually customized anything we faced, and ran a mix of his custom campaign + the dragon campaign + elemental evil (this is 5th ed dnd)
seriously what matters is the players' intentions. if the players are a good bunch and want to have fun while letting others have fun too, metagaming and powergaming are both okay.
>>44104764
given the context of the statement I think he meant to say Thermite
>>44104852
I think termites is funnier.
>>44104760
Meta gaming is usually more accepted and done, since it also can be a lot of minor thing.
>character creation: Hey, what spells did your sorcerer have, so my Wizard uses the same.
>>44104962
I think you're confusing metagaming with organizing, anon.
There's nothing wrong with asking people what they want to do with their characters, so as to fill out a different role. There is, however, something wrong when you say "Careful, this higher demon no one has seen in twohundred years and which is poorly documented can melt a grown person's bones with his acid spit."
>>44104962
Here's the definition by the way:
metagaming
The act of using outside or previously gained knowledge within a gaming universe for personal gain or advantage.
Example: John was accused of metagaming when he immediately moved his player to the most protected area of the map to snipe the enemy team members, since he had played the map before and knew from experience.
Ergo, what you said is not metagaming and instead what it is and should be is normal character creation custom to avoid player's roles overlapping too much.
>Had a player that was both a power gamer and a metagamer
>>44105115
Did you talk to him about his attitude toward the game?
>>44105165
More than once. I finished my campaign despite hi bullshit, but he got dropped in two other campaigns after this.
It was inevitable.
>>44105215
If he didn't change, you should've played without him.
>>44104751
Unrelated, but for vidya rpgs what can actually be considered metagaming and power gaming? I'm trying to sort out in my head and it seems too muddled
>>44105270
Any singleplayer game is exempt from metagaming rules because you're not going to ruin anyone else's time by metagaming in your solo campaign.
Any game that's with teammates and actually has roleplaying is made less fun with metagaming.
For example, reloading a save in Alien: Isolation compared to respawning in SS13 to kill your attacker.
>>44103124
>for most editions
>knowledge checks
Three and a half editions is not 'most'.
>>44102442
Neither of them understand the point of the game, and are using the social/trust-based aspect of the game to their own advantages.
These people would be suitable all manner of games. But after a few sessions you shouldn't invite them back to RP.
>>44102442
metagamers, powergamers you can still have enjoyable experience with in a TTRPG a metagamer not so much.
>>44104568
what does WAAC stand for?
>>44106738
Win at all cost
>>44105270
>Unrelated, but for vidya rpgs what can actually be considered metagaming
Reading walkthroughs to get the best results in quests, exploiting bugs.
>>44105287
I think Morrowind is a great example of a video game that becomes more fun if the player actually roleplays. Rather than becoming an immortal god in 10 minutes..
>>44102442
From worst to not-so-bad
>WAAC
Fuck these cunts. Will ruin everyone's evening just to protect their fragile egos. Grow the fuck up.
>Meta Gamer/rules lawyer
As previously mentioned, the Power gamer/munchkin will batter it's head against problems with their builds. Beware, they may transform into the meta/lawyer, who will promptly stop the game to complain and scream at you from deviating from their expected mechanics/lore.
>Munchkins/Power gamers
Come in two types. The munchkin is more heinous. They don't give a shit about anything, they just want to kill stuff and win. Power Gamers may be optimized and just specialize in something that's very good.
>>44102442
That's like asking me to pick between ass cancer and ball cancer. Ball cancer is obviously worse, but I'd still rather pick "I don't have cancer".
>>44102629
>best_reply.jpg
Crushed by the broken 4th wall. Gonna have to take that one for myself.
What the fuck is wrong with powergaming!?!?!?!? Do people like playing as weak pieces of shit who can't even kill a townguard on their own? Sorry that I don't like having to reroll a new character every session because my unoptimized fighter can't survive in combat with a damn ogre.
>>44107578
Anon, there's a difference between powergaming and being useless being a piece of shit.
Believe it or not, there is middle ground to many things.
Retards that keep playing D&D and can't optimize for shit and throw a shitshow whenever someone can as they well "MUH ROLLPLAY!!!!1">Memeta gaymers>Powergamers
>>44107578
Just because I don't have the exact netlist of feats and equipment doesn't make me useless.
Like >>44107666 said, there is a middle ground.
What if, as a wizard, I choose mostly spells I think would be fun or that would help the group later on? Raw damage is not always better than utility.
Synergy with the group is the most important factor. If you are too overpowered, the other players will get bored and may possibly leave rhe group. If you're too underpowered, they'll grow sick of dragging your ass along and possibly kick you from the group.
Power gamers are capable of not meta-ing and makeing everyone elsesgame still immersive. That can lead to the DM being able to make challenges that the power gamer might not be able to beat.
Meta however, is a form of power gamer. You can gear every action to win because you know the stats and asides that would lead to victory. It ruins other players immersion, and it dosnt let the GM do his job. Example from a recent game I had:
>"Ok you swing but it misses the bear"
>Meta player: That should have hit.
>"Should have? It dosnt. You just didnt meet the number"
>Meta shows us the monster manual on his phone: My number should have hit. Also this things experience isnt even worth it. My character runs.
I'd prefer an explosion of in character bravado to whatever that shit was.
