What is a Paladin? Is he a blessed peacekeeper, champion of the just like Superman? A ruthless murderknight for his god? A traveling, preaching warrior? A miserable little pile of secrets?
What is teegee's view of Paladins? I mean the typical Lawful Good holy knights, though not necessarily just in D&D. I think that Paladins are supposed to be the ultimate Good Guys, even in settings where gods are evil and everything else is grimdark. I mean, to me the whole concept is of a pure romanticized knight, protecting the innocent and destroying evil. They're wise, charismatic and.. Well, heroes. Doesn't mean you can't have them be unique. An old, cynical and weary veteran can be a Paladin, as long as he does the right thing, despite all the shit in the world. Being a Paladin is not about your weapons, fighting style, personality or background. It's about determination and will. The will to do good, even when it means sacrificin yourself. Paladins, to me, are individuals who shine like bonfires in the night. If wolves get too close, to the folks taking shelter in its light, they get burnt.
So what do you think? What should a Paladin be? I know people tend to play Paladins like shit, but what is a Paladin in its core?
Why can't Paladins just be pure and goodhearted people? Stop trying to make them fall constantly.
If you want moral conflicts, roll up a Fighter/Cleric
They're just a fighter-cleric gish.
> Being a Paladin is not about your weapons, fighting style, personality or background. It's about determination and will. The will to do good
Nah, none of this shit. It's a job class. JOB CLASS.
This is like a Plumber saying
>Being a plumber is not about your tools, your repair style, personality or education. It's about determination and will. The will to fix pipes
I imagine in 99% of the game settings where humans have made everything mundane (much like in our own world), all of the peasants/nobles/most adventurers start groaning and rolling their eyes when someone starts identifying more as their job than as a person.
>>44089009
But you don't become a Paladin like you become a cobbler or a sellsword or a mayor. You become a Paladin because you're called, because you have a just heart and a righteous soul. Right?
>>44089033
I'd say so. The analogy the guy used was incorrect.
First of all, the concept of people referring themselves by job or class is suspect.
A Paladin would say that what he's doing is his calling.
And a plumber becomes a plumber to make money. A Paladin becomes what he is because he was called to it. Paladins are warriors of their gods, so it's more weighty than just fixing a toilet.
>>44089033
No. You become a Paladin just like any other job. You agreed to do it.
It's fine that you want to suck Paladin dick, but more now than ever in the fluff, you can be a Paladin from a god, from a fucking rock, believing in yourself, or any other retarded esoteric power source you want.
Literally armored guy with a healing slap and an undead smack. As soon as they dropped the absurd stat line requirements from old editions, it stopped being a lot more "cream of the crop special calling only" and "Would you like to play this? Here you go, go line up in the Paladin queue over there".
>>44089056
>Paladins are warriors of their gods
Since when, grandpa? Even 3.5 splats veered away from this and let you make all kinds of retarded paladins. That was twelve fucking years ago.
Paladins have not been special in over a decade. They're a job.
>>44089075
That's like saying you became a demon summoner because you filled out your job application.
>>44089113
...You literally do.
>Guess I'll go to wizard school
>fill out wizard school application
>learn wizarding
>summon demons because someone asked you to/paid you to/felt like fucking a succubi
>>44089113
Spoilers : Being a cop, doctor, lawyer, judge, etc, are not 'higher callings'.
There's no such thing as a higher calling. There are callous, shrewd business-minded assholes in every profession, even the 'noblest' ones. And this doesn't make them any less skilled than the retarded 'inspired' fag that believes his whole life lead up to this one moment. I would argue their pragmatism would probably make them even more skilled at the job at hand.
Any job is about results, not feelings.
>>44088665
>What is a Paladin? Is he a blessed peacekeeper, champion of the just like Superman? A ruthless murderknight for his god? A traveling, preaching warrior? A miserable little pile of secrets?
Yes
Short and simple, Paladin is pretty much like Kamen Rider.
>>44089178
But Kamen Rider is a Warforged Monk. He certainly doesn't have Lay on Hands.
>>44089200
True but they are packed with Smite Evils as finisher.
>>44089224
Ehhh. They can Rider Kick pretty much whatever the fuck they want and it seems to be pretty effective, evil or not.
>>44089075
I specified in the opening post I meant the classic LG Paladin archetype, not the weird clericfighter in 5th edition.
>>44089146
But Paladins are not copa or doctors. They don't exist in the real world. In fantasy, you can have a higher calling, and that's basically the prime characteristic of a Paladin. A calling.
>>44089146
>>44089075
>>44089009
>I don't like D&D or people so I have convinced myself that only terrible people exist to make this more bearable.
I'm so sorry Anon.
>>44089146
Yeah but usually what seperates the callous dude from the idealist is how far they'll go.
A callous cop might back off a bit in dangerous situations, let a civvy catch some heat, to save their own ass. A sufficiently idealistic cop might not, even if it gets them killed.
>>44089261
That's lame. This is why people play wizards.
In earliest versions of D&D, it still wasn't about a calling. It was about "Holy fuck, I rolled high enough to make a Paladin. Now I can MURDER FUCKING EVERYTHING".
And if 3.5 splats were like "ehh, fuck it, anything goes", then where the fuck was this golden age of inspired Paladinfaggotry?
There wasn't.
MUH HIGHER CALLING Pallyfag shit has always been a meme.
As for specifying it in the opening post, I'll go with miserable little pile of secrets.
>>44089273
I love D&D.
I just happen to also enjoy not playing shitty, useless classes hampered by MUH IDEALS.
>>44089324
Anyone can play the "might" game.
An idealistic cop might get killed for no reason and because he's dead, now more civilians die and the criminal might escape. The callous cop realizes risk management and the importance of doing your job properly and saves more lives overall through net gain.
>>44088665
>What is teegee's view of Paladins?
>They suck
>STOP TELLING ME YOUR VIEW OF PALADINS, PALADINS ARE THE BEST
Never change, /tg/. Paladinfags are right up there with That Guy.
>>44089341
>>44089358
So.. Basically you just roll dice and kill stuff in your games? Thats ok, I guess, but I think roleplaying games should have some.. You know, roleplaying. It's sometimes fun playing a character who is good, instead of murderfucking edgelorda. You might wanna try it sometimes.
>>44089378
Asking for an opinion and discussing it are quite different from replying to posts that boil down "SHIT CLASS, I LOSE POWERS IF I RAPE AND MURDER"
>>44089358
>CN shitter detected
>>44089146
>There are callous, shrewd business-minded assholes in every profession, even the 'noblest' ones.
That doesn't make any sense. Callous, shrewd, business-minded assholes wouldn't even try to become novelists, philosophers, or scientists, because trying to become a novelist, a philosopher, or (these days) a scientist is a terrible business move-- you're not likely to make it and the rewards for doing so are usually pretty lousy.
>Any job is about results, not feelings.
I don't think anyone studies ants or elementary particles for the "results."
>>44088665
A paladin should be all of these things, unless there's only one single paladin on the setting.
And if he isn't Keldorn, fuck the setting with a club made of green dragon scales.
>>44089427
>If you're not sucking the cock of GOODNESS, you are incapable of roleplay or any other character interaction!
You're the one that might wanna try roleplaying sometime, instead of shitty wish-fulfillment.
>>44089450
You're out of your mind if you think there's no callous, shrewd novelists and scientists.
Philosopher, maybe not, but modern philosophy is useless. Also please go find your local elementary particle scientist and ask him to please stop recording the data since the results aren't important.
After all, he's doing it because it's a higher calling and God told him to study those particles! The results don't matter.
>>44089427
But you don't lose powers if you rape and murder. You haven't in 12 years. That's the point. It's a shit class even WITH the powers. You Paladinfags are so fucking defensive that you're moving the goalposts and adding all kinds of insane bulletpoints that have no bearing on the discussion at all. You can roleplay without being a Paladin. You can be just and morale without believing in God, or a "higher power", or callings.
This is why people started shitting on the Good vs Evil dichotomy of tabletop RPG. It's moronic, holier-than-thou dickswinging.
>>44088665
Paladins are the innocent/dreamer character archetype turned up to eleven. They have a naive, idealistic view on how the world works, which is heavily at odds with reality.
Typically this naive view gets the character taken advantage of in some way, because they are excessively believing of the idea that people and the world are good, which allows them to be easily deceived.
When this inevitably happens, the innocent/dreamer character normally realizes that the world isn't such a nice place, and changes their view of the world.
The difference with paladins, upon realizing the world is not what they thought it should be, is that instead of changing their views, they decide that the world should change instead. Instead of losing that idealistic image, they try to make that idealistic image reality.
No heroes are going to suddenly show up and slay the monster, saving the village. But there should be.
No one gives a shit about the poor boy starving to death in the street. But there should be.
No one has the guts to try and stop the corrupt official, who lives in decadence while the people starve from high taxes. But there should be.
These kinds of heroes don't exist in reality. But they should do. And if no one else is going to be that hero, then fuck it, I will.
That is the core of a paladin. They're a great character concept, but they rarely work out well in dnd or whatever because they are at odds with the concept of murdering everything in their path and looting all that remains, which is what many players are in it for.
>worshipping Gods in D&D
>2015
Why not just get under the table and put the DM's cock directly in your mouth and cut out the middle man?
>>44089009
Being a Paladin requires taking an oath.
>>44089498
Dude, the guys I replied to basically said that the only reason to roll Paladin is to kill everything, and now that they aren't that powerful anymore, the class is shit because it assumes a bit of moral integrity and other classes don't. That sounds pretty murderhobo to me.
Maybe you think that kind of game and stuff like Skyrim are roleplaying games, but I like having characters who have motivations beyond loot and murder. Even when they are Evil or Chaotic Neutral characters.
>>44089527
so does being a policemen, teacher and doctor.
but you don't see them whining about muh ideals 24/7 and those that do get laughed at by their colleagues and strangers.
>>44089498
>wish-fulfillment
>constantly talking about muh numbers and results, but suddenly switching gears because now it's about alignment restrictions
And in case you didn't notice, you're the only one constantly talking about "higher calling" from God. Others are arguing ideals.
It's more than obvious that the only reason you hate paladins is because you can't murderhobo or lolsorandum all the fucking time like some CN shitter, which apparently is your definition of "roleplaying".
>>44089515
This is at total odds with the rest of the Paladin-dicksuckers in this thread but I prefer it.
At least in this scenario, there's someone who got shit on and said "Fuck it, I wanna be the change that I want to see in the world". This is not a higher calling, this is not a God gave me powers or told me to do his bidding. This is literally a guy that sees everyone around him as bad and he wants to lead by example and probably strength as well. Which kind of ties back to >>44089146
It's okay to have strong feelings, but unless you can produce the results, you're just going to get shit on again and look like a retard.
And the reason they rarely work out well in D&D/other games is because all PCs are basically avatars of power, many powers of which greatly surpass that of a Paladin, who is pigeonholed into his role and uses.
Your type of Paladin wouldn't be bound by class. Like a Wizard decides he's going to do good/etc, then he just would do so using his wizard powers as the means to that end.
tl;dr, you can only afford to be the hero if you can actually back up your ideals with results, which will depend on your strength.
>>44089512
You didn't even read the opening post, did you?
>>44089560
>This is at total odds with the rest of the Paladin-dicksuckers in this thread but I prefer it.
The irony is that those "paladin-dicksuckers" haven't said the things you hate so much. You guys have been putting words into everyone's mouth from the beginning
>>44088665
Paldin
Originally Palatin or Palace Knight.
Educated knights in the service of the crown who follow a code of honor and often value pious ideals
They are competent administrators, leaders and combatants.
Some of them are said to be awarded by God for their righteous service and are granted power in various forms, most notably Roland one of Charlemagne's knights who used a magic sword to beat down Arab invaders.
>>44089543
That's not what they said at all.
Have you ever played OD&D? There was very little roleplaying. It was more of a survival game. Go down the dungeon, kill things, acquire loot, etc. There was no ideals to speak of. Paladinfaggotry like yours did not exist in the game. No one ever said the class was shit because it assumes moral integrity. Not once in this thread. The class is shit because the player is imposing some grandiose special-snowflake standards of moral integrity that you DON'T NEED TO BE A PALADIN to have. Anyone is capable of being good or doing good. There's absolutely nothing about Paladins that makes them better at that than anyone else.
Paladins used to be 'special' because they were broken strong. And any player couldn't just decide they wanted to be one. If you didn't roll high enough, you couldn't be one. Simple as that.
When more dramafags got into D&D and they started adding a lot of thematic elements and story shit, then they applied the whole God's Chosen "it is possible for Paladins to fall" naff.
If you want to actually read up on the origins of Paladins for D&D, just read the fucking book that Gygax stole his base concept from. Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson.
>>44089543
You're arguing game systems now. OD&D is strictly loot and murder.
And as for 5E, there's plenty of character motivations that aren't restricted to being a Paladin. Avenging a family member, wanting to learn all the spells, establishing a grove as a Druid, settling down to have a family, etc. None of these require PUT YOUR FAITH IN THE LIIIIGHT EVIL BEWARE childish shit.
>>44089550
This old chestnut again. You can murderhobo lolrandom all the time you want as a Paladin now. There's literally nothing stopping you. You can roll up a Paladin powered by your own smug self satisfaction and go to town. There's no reason to hate a Paladin for something it is capable of doing. Have you not played since 3.0?
I shit on Paladins in every game I play. There's nothing more amusing than creating moral quandaries or directly opposing them and then rubbing their face in it because they don't do shit about it due to the terrible mechanics of their class.
Worst player base in D&D.
Damn you niggas got all serious while I was away
>>44088988
Some people are just immature or spiteful and hate the whole idea of someone being truly good.
>>44089688
It's just that Paladins aren't any fun to play. If you want to be powered by a God, Clerics are infinitely superior in terms of options and cool shit you can do. And any class can be a huge idealist big-damn-hero. Paladins are not the only people to possess ideals.
Ever play in an all LG Campaign? Claiming to be the strong defender of the light that helps every orphan and smites the bad guys looks a lot less impressive when the LG Wizard and LG Cleric are spouting the same shit and just outperforming you in every way imaginable.
>>44089618
Paladin
Restriction: LAWFUL GOOD
It was only in 3.5 that the restriction was lifted. In 5th ed you can be Chaoti Evil Paladin if you want. Ok. But that's not a Paladin anymore, you follow? It uses a class and mechanics, but Paladin has a meaning in the minds of gamers. Someone says Rogue, you think a sneaky thief. Ranger? That's The guy with the animal and a bow. Paladin? The holy warrior.
And that's the archetype. That's what I wanted to discuss and said so in my opening post. The difference of being faithful servant of a god to the brink of genocidal fervor vs an inspired hero with just the will to make the world better vs a knightly order with set virtues and morals.
>>44089698
That's idiotic. You're basically claiming that only Paladins can be truly good.
A wizard, cleric, fighter, etc, could all be "truly good". Your shitty pet class has no bearing on moral barometer.
>>44089498
>You're out of your mind if you think there's no callous, shrewd novelists and scientists.
Some may exist, but probably not very many, because no callous person with half a brain would decide to become a novelist or a scientist. They'd go into law, finance or some other high-paying profession.
>Philosopher, maybe not, but modern philosophy is useless. Also please go find your local elementary particle scientist and ask him to please stop recording the data since the results aren't important.
>After all, he's doing it because it's a higher calling and God told him to study those particles! The results don't matter.
Here, you've conflated your original conception of "results" (as something that you arrive at independently from your motivation, i.e., distinct from the altruistic 'feelings' that might motivate a paladin) with the scientific usage of the word "results" (the outcome of an experiment or series of experiments). This never came anywhere close to being a valid argument.
>An idealistic cop might get killed for no reason and because he's dead, now more civilians die and the criminal might escape. The callous cop realizes risk management and the importance of doing your job properly and saves more lives overall through net gain.
If we generalize it, your argument amounts to, "People who actively work for the benefit of others are usually less effective altruists than people who don't give a shit about anyone other than themselves." This is distilled essence of edgelord; it's raw fedoraism. No wonder you don't like paladins.
>MUH HIGHER CALLING Pallyfag shit has always been a meme.
What does that even mean, in this context? That it's been a popular interpretation of the character class? Because, you know, that would be the quality which is most relevant to this discussion.
>>44089708
Uh, no.
Paladins simply had to be a Lawful Fighter with CHA 17. Have fun getting that with 3D6 in order.
It was only in AD&D that the restriction was added.
So there's 3 generations of D&D without the restriction and 2 generations with it.
>>44089544
You might have some severe problems if you think having ideals is a bad thing or worthy of mockery. In fact the very idea you would mock someone for having ideals suggests you are a shitty person.
>>44088665
>What is teegee's view of Paladins?
To me, Paladin is simply a knight or a warrior whose motivations for violence are ostentively ideological. A "warrior of faith" where the faith is meant in the sense of philosophical belief - the broadest meaning of the concept possible.
To put it in a different way: paladin to me is somebody who actively fights (in the violent sense) for some kind of ideal or belief - religious or other, lets this fight define his identity.
Since I'm a massive active opponent to the idea of alignments and generally don't give a fuck about the metaphysics and magics of D'nD, I don't necessarily associate paladins with concepts of good (lawfulness, while still a stupid-ass category, still seems more relevant because it implies some form of inner consistency of thoughts), neither I associate them with magical powers of any particular form.
I do associate them with usually religious or philosophical orders, and generally tend to identify them with certain degree of rigidity of belief and adherence to a relatively strict code of conduct.
To be honest, I stopped using them altogether ever since I abandoned conventional fantasy. I was considering revisiting the term when I was wondering how to call a form of high-prestige guard order in a highly theocratic culture in my world, but then I've came to the conclusion that it would probably just confuse people.
>>44089730
>Here, you've conflated your original conception of "results" (as something that you arrive at independently from your motivation, i.e., distinct from the altruistic 'feelings' that might motivate a paladin) with the scientific usage of the word "results" (the outcome of an experiment or series of experiments)
But there's no conflation at all, let alone misconception. Cause and effect dictates results. If you want to be pedantic, we can specify "desirable results", since an idealist cop jumping in front of a bullet and dying still produces a result; his death. We didn't even get into the "no such thing as true altruism" angle that also completely destroys Paladins. I was still very much still talking about the outcome, in both scenarios.
>If we generalize it, your argument amounts to, "People who actively work for the benefit of others are usually less effective altruists than people who don't give a shit about anyone other than themselves."
Efficacy has absolutely nothing to do with "edgelord" or "raw fedoraism". You're just throwing around weightless buzzwords at this point to detract from the fact that strong belief and ideals have absolutely zero impact on producing mechanically desirable results. If anything, the extra time and energy spent on trying to balance said ideals with the desirable results is an unnecessary variable that can produce an undesirable result when the ideal is found to be "more important" by the actor than the results.
>What does that even mean, in this context?
It means that it's been a popular MISCONCEPTION of the character class. it's not present in the life of Holger Carlsen until the end of the novel 3 Hearts and 3 Lions (Gygax's direct inspiration for Paladins), where he converts. In OD&D, there was no "paladin falls" meme bullshit. In AD&D and 3.0, it was relevant. It was dropped in 3.5E. It was dropped in 4E. It was dropped in 5E. Why does it persist then? I'm saying it's literally a meme.
>>44089713
The only idiotic thing here is how severely the whole concept of the class seems to offend you.
Why does the concept of a righteous knight with holy powers who fights for good annoy you so much.
>>44089706
Try a different edition.
>>44089797
It should be pretty damn obvious that it persists because 'warrior of righteousness' is a hugely appealing concept to many people.
>>44089706
But Paladins don't necessarily need to be powered by a god, and "fun" is a subjectibe term. Paladin might not be the most powerful class in 5th ed, or in 3.5 or whatever, but boy, is it fun in the right group. It's awesome when you run into some monsters that try to eat your thoughts, and the Paladin wins initiative, moves to the center of the group and proclaims that he is the beacon against evil while giving everyone +5 to all saves just because he is Jesus.
>>44089713
Of course other classes can be lawful good. But the defining feature of a Paladin is that he is Lawful Good.
>>44089809
Name one other than OD&D where a full caster doesn't shit all over Paladin. I've played all the editions, thank you.
>>44089822
I want to know why a man on a horse in plate has to be the codifying standard for a warrior of righteousness, as opposed to say, any other class. Wizard of Righteousness, Monk of Righteousness, Druid of Righteousness, etc.
If you're going to do something, why not also be effective at it? OD&D Paladins are probably the only ones I do like, because if you're going to be the mythical Superman, then you need the power to back it up.
>>44089851
4th edition. 5th edition.
>>44089833
>But the defining feature of a Paladin is that he is Lawful Good.
Then 3.5/4E/5E have completely ruined Paladins because they are no longer required to be LG and thus have lost their definition?
>>44089762
you are have several mental problems and no actual friends if you think it is perfectly fine to spew your ideals 24/7 in the public or simply in front of others and not get laughed at or shit on for being so pretension.
Ideals are not yours garbage or goals so you can feel you are better than everybody else, which you seem desperately want it to be, and why everyone hate people like that.
Having ideals is like having a dick, every faggot have one but nobody like those that shove theirs in front of others.
>>44088665
Good work everyone,you all pulled together and made this the worst thread on /tg/.
>>44089851
Because knights are symbolic of righteousness and honour. Even if knights IRL weren't like that and Game of Thrones is probably changing some perceptions, fantasy symbolism still dictates that knight in shining armour on horse = good.
>>44089736
In OD&D, it was assumed everyone was good, though.
>>44089858
Paladins are terrible in 4E. Warlord is a better leader, Fighter is a better Defender.
In 5E, Paladins finally aren't shit, but they're only T3, as opposed to Druids (T1), and Wizards, Bards and Sorcerer/Warlock Hybrids (T2).
>>44089860
To a degrew. 4th and 5th edition class that they call Paladin should've been called "Champion" instead and have a fluff text that says shit like "LG Champions are called Paladins, LN ones Adjudicators and LE ones Blackguards, etc etc"
>>44089860
>allowing for variations = killing the fantasy entirely
Classical interpretation of the class forms the core fantasy, holy knights are a core fantasy, allowing for misguided and evil worshiping variations does not change that.
>>44089876
Except thieves, of course.
>>44089869
But that's the same misguided bullshit that we make fun of weeaboos for.
Real samurai, and real knights for that matter, were all terrible cunts. It's nothing more than glorified propaganda from the ruling class.
>>44089860
Is this really the first time you have heard people say they wish those editions had kept the LG requirement?
>>44089713
>You're basically claiming that only Paladins can be truly good.
No, you're claiming that. Just like everything else you have been accusing people of.
Can you stop putting words in people's mouth for 5 goddamn seconds?
>>44089664
>make a kender
>not evil
>can still steal without being evil
>steal from the Paladin all the time
>he can't smite me
>ham it up as "borrowing things" and forgetting they were his
>sell them, give them away
>nigga sees blood red but can't do shit about it
>>44089851
>OD&D Paladins are probably the only ones I do like, because if you're going to be the mythical Superman, then you need the power to back it up.
So again this is really what it's all about for you, isn't it? The ability to be a murderhobo.
I'm also pretty sure that monks are often seen as spiritual and just people, and when people think of druids they think of hippies that want to change the world for the better. What the fuck are you even trying to grasp at?
>>44088665
Knight of faith. With aligment same as his faith.
>>44089924
>were all terrible cunts
And revisionist morons like you who hate everyone in charge are no better. Plenty of knights were decent people who tried to live up to the ideals just like plenty were shit.
And either way, the knight in shining armour is a symbol of good and justice no matter how much it offends you. So that is what lots of people are basing their Paladins on. Nobody cares if you would rather have the historically evil and untrustworthy spell-caster as the symbol of righteousness.
>>44089924
>fantasy
>reality
>???
>>44089934
Those people are wrong, obviously. WotC changed that because of how assblasted people were of their Paladins falling all the time to smug DMs, and kids wanting to play sunglasses trenchcoat nothin' personnel kid Paladins, so they gave the people what they want.
>>44089935
>some people are immature or spiteful and hate the whole idea of someone being truly good
>only talking about paladins
>several posts have been made mentioning how other classes can be just as good, without being retarded and a paladin
>DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH I WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD HATES GOODNESS ONLY I AM MORALLY SUPERIOR
Sorry for putting words in your mouth. You won't have room for all the dicks if I keep filling it with words.
>>44089924
The difference being that people actually realise that there were cunts. Why the fuck do you think terms such as "white knight" and "black knight" exist?
>all
Take your GoT history elsewhere.
>>44089706
You know they "fixed" the whole powered by god thing, right? dnd paladins are all about oaths now- a strict adherence to a set of ideals. Like you said, paladins don't have hegemony over a character having ideals, but it gives them a stronger basis, especially now that the class mechanics are flavored in a way to fit the ideals.
Now you seem to be stuck in a 3.5 mindset where it all comes down to "performance" (in your mind this seems to come down mostly to combat). According to your logic, anyone, regardless of RP, should be playing cleric or wizard because they are better and can say the same things as anyone else. That's a 3.5 flaw and it's also not completely accurate.
If you want to argue about dice rolls and performance, remember that paladins will be stacking charisma, so until the "outperformers" get enough spells and spells per day to cover every conceivable social situation.
Short version is you think paladins are dull because you have a dull view of what makes up a game.
>>44089945
What is the point of this greentext. No sane DM would allow Kender to even exist in a game, let alone be PC's. And the Paladin can still punish you for stealing or have you locked up at the next town.
>>44089954
>monks
>not seen as boy diddlers and kiddy fiddlers
Let's not even open the Kung Fu Monk not belonging in D&D can of worms.
>>44089960
>revisionist moron
Nah, they were cunts. And thankfully the knight in shining armor meme is dying. Thanks George RR Martin.
>>44089977
>trying to punish or lock up a kender
Good luck.
>No sane DM would allow Paladins to even exist in a game
>>44089965
I'm not even the same guy you turbofaggot
Also, the guy you replied to was talking about the multiple post about >MUH RESTRICTION, >MUH WISH FULLFILLMENT this entire fucking thread is filled with
>>44089965
So when YOU arbitrarily decide what 'the people' want you are correct but when all the people who like the idea of a Paladin object to them being changed and diluted they are wrong?
Shitty DM's who don't know how the game works do not justify allowing anybody to be a Paladin.
>>44089977
You know that kenders have, and do exist in game settings? They're not like some dank fantasy meme that someone made up that was never implemented.
I've played with kenders in at least seven campaigns over the years.
>>44089983
Like it or not, when you say "monk", 9 out of 10 will think of eastern fighting monks and not some fat bumblefuck in a monestary brewing alcohol and reading a book his entire life.
>>44090004
Too bad the WotC doesn't give a fuck about your opinion, kid. They want to sell books and minis.
If shitty DMs don't understand how the game works, they're going to make the game easier to understand, not educate DMs to make them not shit.
>>44088665
He is what the fucking class description says he is.
>>44089965
>implying 99% of paladins falling aren't muh orc baby dilemmas
>85 posts
>22 IPs
Sounds about right
>>44089994
You are right, in a sane world they would just be killed on sight for being shit.
And I hoper you are just pretending, if you actually would rather have Kender than Paladins you are an idiot.
>>44090037
T H I S
H
I
S
>>44089983
>more blind revisionism
>thinks Game of Thrones has been anything but terrible for fantasy as a whole
No wonder you are offended so much by Lawful Good characters.
>>44090030
>kid
Now you are not even trying.
And letting everybody be a Paladin is not 'easier to understand', its just a pointless dilution of a concept.
>>44090051
>HATE KENDERS
>KILL KENDERS
>btw Paladins are the best ;^)
I see.
>>44090092
>WotC let everyone be a Paladin because they're STUPID, they diluted it because they HATE MONEY and want to sabotage their own business!
I'm sure that was it.
>>44090111
Nice greentext of things that the poster never said or implied. 7/10
>>44090142
>letting everybody be a Paladin is not 'easier to understand'
>its just a pointless dilution of a concept.
>diluting something for no reason
>diluting something doesn't make it easier to understand
>NEVER EVER IMPLIED
>>44090162
You mistake "making easier to understand" with "more accessible."
Paladins were changed, diluted like it was said, to make them more accessible. It didn't make them easier to understand. It just made it so that anyone can be a Paladin and not give shits if they murder and wreck towns for lulz.
>>44090215
How does that not make them easier to understand?
>So wait, is evil a choice or not? If I kill an orc baby because I detect evil, am I the baddie? Do I fall?
vs
>Kill whatever. You're better at killing undead and demons though!
Seems like one of those is patently easier to understand.
>>44090233
You're a holy knight of a cause
Vs.
You're a guy who believes or doesn't believe in something and you are like a knight but get magic powers from somewhere and you fight for.. Something, I guess.
>>44089178
I always loved the idea of Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers as paladins. Instead of serving a God, they get access to the Morphing Grid which only seems to allow people who are good at heart.
Reasons or motivation hardly matter, if you're a good person and won't abuse the power, you can Morph.
>>44090269
What's holy? Is it holy only to humans? Do vampires have holy knights of their causes too? What cause? Can it be any cause? Can I be a holy knight of wanting to bang strippers?
vs
You don't need to say believes or doesn't believe, they cancel out. So you're like a knight that gets magic powers. Done.
>>44090284
What happens if you do abuse the power?
>>44090354
YOU FALL
LOSE ALL POWERS
ENJOY BEING A STRICTLY WORSE FIGHTER MWA HA HA
>>44090354
So you're saying that it's easier to understand "magic knight without being eldritch knight" instead of "crusader with holy powers"
>>44090233
>What's holy? Is it holy only to humans? Do vampires have holy knights of their causes too?
You don't know shit about D&D if you have to ask those questions. "Holy", "Good", and "Evil" are fundamental forces of the setting. They're measurable, they exist, they're not philosophical or moral concepts. "Lawful Good" is not an idea, it exists as a law of nature.
>>44090394
Not him, but it's funny: in another thread about morality, I just got screamed at like four times that I don't know shit about D&D because I claimed that is how alignments work. Now I'm just confused...
>>44090383
Why are you adding the "without being eldritch knight" clause? That hasn't been relevant for a decade. WotC isn't trying to sell 5E to your grognard ass; they're know you're already on board or disgusted anyways.
They want to sell this to the new generation. So yes, "Magic knight" is easier to understand. You have to take the climate into consideration.
Orcs being evil by nature is racist. Paladin being a job class exclusive to LG, which some races are not, is a racist concept. It's 2015. WotC isn't going to make a "problematic" class here. Holy is offensive, after all. Please keep you bigotry away from all these noble creatures.
It'll go the way of World of Warcraft, where the Horde isn't evil, but misunderstood, and it's really the fault of some nonexistent boogeyman, who also isn't evil, but misunderstood, echoing off into eternity.
>>44090394
>>44090427
That's because that is how D&D *used to work*. It's not liek that anymore, and it hasn't been for 12 years, as per >>44090428
Grognards are incapable of moving on past this point. It's true, in older D&D, much like Tolkien, evil was a fundamental force. An orc was evil by his very existence. He did not choose to be evil.
You could safely assume to spam Detect Evil and mow down anything evil (which is funny, considering all the assblasted Pally fans in this thread were arguing AGAINST Paladins being murderhobos, when in fact they were the BEST murderhobos, since they basically had license to kill with Murdervision). It wasn't until more recent years when people started applying relative morality to game setting that people started getting their panties in a bunch and now we've dropped all of the good/evil shit and replaced most instances of "holy" and shit with Radiant energy, etc.
tl;dr, Good/Evil is almost done with in D&D. Last legs, lads.
Just got into a 5e camp, wanted to play paladin. I was just disappointed that the murderhobos and edgelords won out in the end, removing the idealism and purity behind the Paladin. Class should really have a new name like champion or templar, because that shit aint paladin.
>>44090428
Because eldritch knights are also magic knights. So are they Paladins too? Why not?
See the problem here? The class was defined by "holy knight", now they don't have much anything to define them. Warlocks are still tied to their patrons, so why aren't Paladins under some an obligation too?
5th ed is hella good, but it has certain things that I don't like, such as the dilution of certain classes and concepts.
>>44090476
Paladin is the original murderhobo, anon.
>I detect Evil
>It's evil
>SMITE
>I detect Evil
>It's not evil
>Move along
>>44090503
That's not a problem. Eldritch Knights don't exist, because they're shit.
Paladinfags next on the list. Enjoy your shitty Champion.
>>44090509
>smiting before finding out why thing is evil
>implying paladins should be bloodthirsty and attack first
0/10 paladin, consider playing 5e
>>44090470
"Always Evil" and strict classification of races was bullshit and never made sense. It's much better they steered away from that, while retaining "cosmic evil and good", so you can still have demons and stuff who are unrepentant evil on an absolute level.
>>44090509
You sure you know what "Paladin" and "murderhobo" mean? You're confusing them to mean the same.
>>44090558
>smiting something just because it doesn't match your alignment
>implying Paladins shouldn't be trying to redeem people
0/10 paladin, consider playing 1e
>>44090470
Tolkien didn't have anything like fundamental evil forces. You could not spam Detect Evil in 3.5 either, it was described in, shit I can't recall where, but somewhere, that simply killing something out of the blue because "it was Evil" was not acceptable Paladin behavior. Orc was chaotic evil? Still evil to kill it unless you had good cause, like "he's attacking this town to slaughter the inhabitants". It's good to stop an evil deed: it's not good to simply slay an evil being, it's evil to Detect Evil and slay evil. I think it was the Book of Exalted Deeds, which I don't have available right now, but I'll download it right quick.
>>44090538
What? They're a thing in 5th. What the hell are you talking about?
>>44090582
That a misquote, or am I missing something here? Paladins shouldnt jump to smiting, and should be redeeming.
>>44090589
>Tolkien didn't have anything like fundamental evil forces.
The fuck are you smoking? Do you know anything about Tolkien orcs?
Also, Exalted Deeds isn't core by a longshot.
By raw :
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
>>44090606
Wrong answer.
>a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters
Hanging out with an evil character attempting to redeem them is association with an evil character by RAW.
You lose your powers, faggot.
NEXT
>>44088665
A miserable little pile of-
Goddammit, OP.
>>44090610
Tolkien's orcs were assholes because they were twisted mockeries who hated themselves because they were twisted mockeries. Tolkien didn't give nuanced portrayals of orcs because he was making a point in the vein of old myths and legends.
>>44090606
Paladins aren't redeemers. Well, that's not their prime purpose. That's what clerics are for.
Paladins are soldiers, champions, generals. They go where they are needed and do their jobs. Usually that means mediating at first, but tht often escalates into drawing steel, because evil is destructive and unreasonable.
So while Paladins are not supposed to kill on sight, they're also not keks who "try to redeem a succubus."
This thread has devolved in such a shitstorm with nobody being able to be on-point. Everyone constantly comes up with previously unmentioned shit and act like it was always the point they were arguing.
The most hilarous thing is that everyone is constantly screaming MUH RULEBOOK and MUH D&D completely ignoring the OP
>though not necessarly just in D&D
>>44090698
No one gives one insular fuck about Paladins outside of D&D because they almost never come up. There's no Paladins in Shadowrun, there's no Paladins in VtM (of even remotely similar comparison), there's no Paladins in 5R, there's no Paladins in almost fucking anything but D&D/Pathfinder/retarded systems that have everything in them like GURPS.
So, what non-D&D, non-everything-goes system that utilizes Paladins would you like to talk about, anon?
Dogs in the Vineyard? You wanna talk about Mormon Paladins? We can talk about Mormon Paladins.
>>44090735
Talk to me about Mormon Paladins.
>>44089898
Nonetheless, a Paladin won't be curbstomped by a Wizard. And the point of a Paladin isn't to be the best fighter or the best defender, it's to be a backup leader and a backup defender in the absence of either of the above. Also, tiers don't mean a huge amount in 5E unless you're optimising.
>>44089924
>but that's the same misguided bullshit we make fun of weeaboos for.
Firstly, we don't actually believe it. Secondly,
>complaining about weeaboos on 4chan
>le knowledge of location maymay
>>44090771
>not optimizing
Yeeeeah, they'll get curbstomped by a wizard.
>>44088665
They are champions of justice, goodness and freedom. Protectors of the innocent, and enemies of evil.
They are Superman, Optimus Prime and Captain America in their best portrayals, they are the Jedi in the Old Republic and captain Carrot in Ankh-Morpork. They are the ideal to which knight and samurai alike aspired to be.
They gain their power from their virtue and the will to be the change they want to see in the world, not from gods. They can worship gods, sure, but only if the god proves itself to be virtuous enough. A cleric needs to prove to his god that his faith is worthy of gaining power, a paladin needs to find a god that is worthy of gaining his faith and power.
>>44090803
>They can worship gods, sure, but only if the god proves itself to be virtuous enough.
[Tipping intensifies]
>>44090793
Depends on level and preptime.
>>44090803
Holy fuck.
10/10. You got me. Here's your (You). I actually cringed in real life reading that.
>>44090839
>Depends on level
There was no reason to say that.
>>44090803
You. I like you.
>>44090803
>samurai aspired to be Lawful Good-like
The hell are you even on about?
>>44090803
>Jedi in the Old Republic
Hahahahahahaha
Ahahaha
Hahahaha
>>44090850
That boy ain't right, I tell ya hwut...
>>44090803
Please define evil for me. I'm so curious to the inner workings of your bizarre little mind.
>>44090918
I know you're a shitposter, but really, using your common sense, you should pretty quickly conclude what is evil and what is not.
I hate paladins. Did you know that you can't become a Paladin as an adult?
You know why?
It's because Paladins mislead young people and indoctrinate them into their ranks to be brainwashed holy warriors. That's also why you couldn't mutliclass into Paladins.
I'm not going to deny that Paladins do some good things, but they're just tools of the church being used to keep the average person poor and downtrodden.
Paladins exist as extensions of the church.
And how are churches funded?
Through tithes, which squeeze the peasantry of their money.
Anyone who can't see this moral hypocrisy is misguided.
>>44090354
You lose your ability to Morph for the episode until you learn the lesson of the week.
I'm honestly not sure if this post is serious. Just tell me honestly anon, are you baiting?
>>44091152
That was for >>44091041
>>44091152
Mechanically speaking, it is true that Paladins could not multi-class/Dual Class in older editions, and multiclassing in 3.X retarded your Paladin progress.
Being a paladin was a complete commitment, which means that you couldn't become one when you became old.
>>44090957
Nice bait.
>Evil is common sense!
>>44091251
How autistic are you? It's common sense what is evil and what is not. It's not rocket science.
>>44091354
You dumb bruh.
>>44091373
For not being a fedoratipper like you? Acceptable.
>>44091354
No, it isn't.
Is something evil because it breaks the law? Is something legal necessarily not evil as a result?
You're dodging the question by waving your arms and saying "IT'S JUST COMMON SENSE!" because you know you can't define evil in an objective manner that people would agree on.
Get fucked.
>>44091553
You stupid nigger. Law has nothing to do with good or evil. If you are incapable of deducting that being an abusive cunt is evil while being a charitable bro is good, go back to Somalia.
>>44091671
You're still dodging the question.
Since you won't define it, let's play the moral quandary game.
Is stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family evil?
>>44091671
>arbitrary religious maxims that we used to make distinctions between good and evil and then formed into laws have nothing to do with laws!
You are incapable of defining good and evil, just admit it.
>>44091724
No, you're just incapable of forming your own thoughts.
>>44091700
Not dodging. I gave you an answer. You're just not seeing it. And not evil, btw.
>>44091925
Ends justify the means then, eh?
>I stole the loaf of bread because my family was starving
>I didn't take into consideration that his family may have needed the bread as well and now they starved to death instead
>oh well, not evil
>>44091925
Libkek confirmed.
Theft is evil.
>>44092033
Go take a philosophy class or two. Then come back when you can discuss even the basics of morality.
>>44092046
"Don't give a fuck if people die, as long as I get to live in luxury"
Cunt detected.
>>44092046
>Some people can have literally billions of dollars that they didn't work for at all apart from inheriting a company while preaching about how working hard earns you about 0,01% of what they earn, while someone who actually works hard doesn't earn shit
>>44092140
>Inheriting money is EVIL
>>44092107
Didn't realize having a loaf of bread was luxury. Get a job, nigger.
>>44092173
You are literally retarded.
>>44092107
>guy that refuses to define good or evil telling other people to take a philosophy class
kek.
Good and evil are not only culturally subjective, but relative to your society as well. You're only operating on a level of conventional morality if you think theft is acceptable because you're saving a human life. You're not even taking into consideration the causes for the living situation, the result of the theft, or the impact it has on other people by justifying the behavior as acceptable.
You are a charlatan and a fraud, good sir. And likely a nig.
>>44092210
Stop being that fucking naive. Good and evil have nothing to do with culture.
>>44092235
>Good and evil are intrinsic
Hahahahahahaha
ahahahahahaha
oh boy
>>44092235
>Paladinfag is a transcendental realist
Why am I not surprised?
>>44092210
The better question is: Why the FUCK are you falling for what is easily the fucking most lazy attempt at trolling I've seen in the good decade I've been here.
Jesus fucking Christ.
You want to debate morality? I can be a sparing partner, fire away. But for fuck sake don't feed lazy trolls like this.
>>44089706
Every paladin I've played was fun as hell.
>Over the top Yvain-ripoff
>Dragonborn Dragon-Blooded Sorercess/Paladin of Bahamut
>Half-elf Paladin/Bard
>Thri-Kreen Sikh Paladin
>Half-Orc Fighter who became a paladin
>Pauldronius, Prince of Pauldrons
If you are incabable of having fun with a certain class, you are probably not a joy to have around the table. There are so many possibilities, not every pally has to be "Smitebot.exe."
Likewise, paladins are not the only class, expiriement and find the ones you like, but don't outright ban a class because you hate a concept that others enjoy.
>>44089862
>spew your ideals 24/7 in the public or simply in front of others and not get laughed at or shit on for being so pretension.
There's a difference between working "Can I talk to you about the glory of Sune?" into every conversation and living your life as an example of virtue and proof of blessings received for virtue.
If a man's ideals are plainly visible, and his ideals have visibly and materially blessed his life, and you find that equivalent to being flashed, you probably live by ideals and precepts you'd be ashamed to admit in public, and you are projecting your own shame upon others.
But that's how a Paladin should be. Looking upon him and knowing his heart should make the doers of venial evil feel shame for their own ways of life.
I've met people like this in real life, people who make you rethink your own motivations just as silent examples.
>>44092287
>>44092304
>Murder and rape are good things because my culture says so. You can't judge me. Now suck my dick.
Guys like you are the reason the world is goin to shit.
>>44092318
>Sorceress Paladin
>Bard Paladin
>Sikh Paladin
I can't stop all the puke coming out of my mouth
>>44092338
>Murder and rape are bad things because my culture says so. You must be judged. Now suck my dick.
Guys like you are the reason the world is goin to shit.
>>44092341
>dissing on Sikhs
>>44092341
Back ye devil!
The power of FUN compels ye!
>>44089945
Don't need to smite you to stick you shackles and hot rivet them on instead of locking them
>>44092364
>lol look at my epic maymay argument xDxD rly showed him r8 guise?
Ok.
You do not have to be faithful to your god to be faithful to your beliefs and yourself, to be just and to care about your people.
And that is what truly matters.
But can you still count as a paladin if you grew disappointed in your god, cast your faith aside, made a contract with demons, sided with non-humans and monsters, but still preserved your ideals and moral values?
>>44091466
What, you're talking about God? That's disappointing.
>>44092410
He did show you, actually. Pretty obvious to anyone.
>>44092474
Pretty sure making a demonic pact is in the realm of anti-paladins, but there's nothing preventing them from upholding the same oaths they took as a paladin.
Think the Overlord games. The first game's Overlord is brought to life with dark pacts and the promise of evil, but if you play as good, you will genuinely make the world a better place and eradicate the evil your life is sworn about.Also the Overlord is a fallen paladin that can regain his status by killing the real Overlord once and for all.
>>44088665
>What is teegee's view of Paladins?
Depends on the setting really. Paladin is more of a class than a concept to me.
Usually I go for warrior-monk themed characters devoted to a cause (generally a god), and their morality whatever furthers their cause.
>>44089924
>real knights were all terrible cunts
I mean, except the ones who weren't. Game of Thrones faggots need to throw themselves off a bridge. The Knights Templar are a perfect example. They weren't universally good, but they held themselves to a high code of conduct and mostly stuck to it. When one of the Crusader armies started getting unruly, they put the Templars in charge of disciplining the soldiers, and the robbery and looting ended up more or less under control.
The Knights Hospitaller are an even better example; not only were they knights, they made a point of tended to the sick and injured, and eventually got into fighting piracy as well.
Of course, both these groups get shat on thanks to GoT and Assassin's Creed fanboys who think their edgy, misanthropic settings are somehow even remotely close to realities.
Tl;dr - there were good and bad knights, just like literally everyone else, you imbecile.
>>44092474
>made a contract with demons
Absolutely not.
>>44092514
Nah, moral relativism is why you get things like honor-killing apologists, affluenza defenses, and social crusaders asking abused women if they want their case tried in the Sharia family court.
Some cultures are definably shittier than others, and while no culture holds the universal high ground in every case, there are identifiable (to anyone with a smattering of philosophy training and introspection) moral high grounds for each issue.
>>44092585
>eventually got into fighting piracy as well
...Then they moved to Malta and the anti-piracy policies became just piracy. Mostly against muslims, but occasionally also towards european ships who traded with them.
>>44092625
No, there isn't. There's no such thing as an objective moral high ground. You're a transcendental realist.
>>44092625
So define the correct morality then.
>>44092585
>muh Knights Hospitaller
Thank Napoleon for shitting on these keks.
>>44092588
Why not?
There are all sorts of demons. And they are pretty cool guys too! Well, sure some of them eat people alive and bath in blood, but you don't have to get all buddy-buddy with those weirdos. And they at least always follow the terms of their pacts and don't try to brainwash millions of people and whole nations into believing in them to fill themselves with the power of human faith like certain celestial beings do.
We can debate subjective and objective morality all we want, but morality is physically defined in DnD.
There is no moral relativism in DnD. Some actions are good, others will send you to an afterlife ruled by an evil God, where you get tormented.
>>44092683
All demons in D&D are evil. Paladins don't make deal with evil beings.
>demons follow the terms of their pacts
That'd be devils, and what fucking brainwashing are you talking about?
>>44092696
Show me the physically defined morality in 5E.
This isn't 3rd edition anymore. That shit is done with.
>>44092364
No, murder and rape are evil, regardless of culture. When you start getting into relativism, you throw out the basis of all morality. Not judging an evil act as evil is, in fact, a bad thing. You're clearly one of those relativist liberals who thinks that judging is inherently evil, even though you judge literally everything you see, like literally everyone else does.
Evil is evil, and good is good. Aztec human sacrifice was evil. Spaniards abusing the Aztecs they conquered was also evil.
Good and evil transcend culture.
A guy in heavy armor who has shiny light powers that heals stuff.
>>44092725
I wasn't talking about D&D.
>>44092781
You haven't defined them at all still. You're just throwing around buzzwords.
They don't descend culture because they're directly the byproduct of human culture.
Do you think an animal raping another anime is evil? Is it murder when an animal kills another animal and DOESN'T eat it? These are human concepts that we've created as a result of our personal interactions. It doesn't transcend shit. Who is the arbiter of what is good and evil? You want to talk about something without even defining what it is. You're an idiot.
>>44092785
A cleric?
>>44092781
You have to be able to identify, and thus, DEFINE evil before you can judge it. There's a reason why laws are worded to such an anal and specific degree.
>>44092651
Yeah, that disappointed me when I found out about it. It's actually pretty interesting how it came about; they made enough cash fighting pirates that European nobility didn't feel compelled to keep funding them, but as the funds stopped coming in the Knights ended up upping their raids to keep the money flowing in. One thing led to another, and suddenly
>No Sir John, you are the pirates
Huh. Does that make the Hospitallers fallen paladins?
>>44092781
> Aztec human sacrifice was evil.
They thought it was what kept there world running, and as far as they could tell, it did. That's not much better but shit gets really murky in a fantasy setting where "We need to sacrifice children and rape virgins in order to make sure the sun rises in the morning"may not actually be a ridiculous conclusion to arrive at.
>>44092793
What are you talking about then?
>>44092809
Or a troll.
>>44092781
We should all be vegetarians then, because consuming flesh is murder. After all, murder is evil regardless of culture, which also means HUMAN culture.
Did you kill an insect for no reason? That's murder. That's an evil act, and you should be judged. If you try and claim that it's different because we're humans, you've just applied relativism; relative to human existence and human standards. You just threw out the basis of all morality.
Get fucked.
>>44092825
>A cleric?
Nah, a paladin is more militant. Spell Casting isn't his primary contribution.
>>44092850
Any system or story in general where demons are bound by pacts and power of faith is a thing. In particular, I was thinking about the quest from the picture above >>44092474
>>44092809
>Do you think an animal
Animals have no moral sense. An animal cannot commit evil, and it cannot do good. An animal just does.
>Who is the arbiter of what is good and evil?
God. See, this is why atheism is so inherently goofy. There's literally no way to adequately come up with a moral system without anything transcendent.
>>44092761
Demons are the embodiment of chaos and evil.
Read your monster manual.
>>44092809
>raping another anime
I know you meant animal but I'm still guffawing.
>>44092880
I can't read Russian. "Paladin" doesn't equal "warrior with power of faith" either.
>>44092872
Animals are not moral beings.
Once again, you're proving that atheism provides no basis for any kind of morality. Thank you, people of this thread, for proving exactly what theists have been pointing out ever since fedora-tippers thought they could claim to be moral.
>>44092881
>God
Well, I think it's safe to say that we're done here.
>>44092902
>I can't read Russian
You can read it in English. Google that shit man, it's in the filename.
>"Paladin" doesn't equal "warrior with power of faith"
Where did I say it does?
>>44092915
Humans are animals.
Checkmate, godfag.
>>44092831
>Huh. Does that make the Hospitallers fallen paladins?
Could they even fall at all? After all by then they had already lost their purpose (helping pilgrims and defending the kingdom of Jerusalem) and powers (nobility finances). It's more like the class ceased to exist so they stopped adhering to its requirements.
>>44092949
>But can you still count as a paladin
>Any system or story in general where [...] power of faith is a thing
And I'm not gonna google some quest just because you didn't provide adequate details.
>>44092809
Not that Anon, but he's right. Stop being a tumblr-level keklord. Humans don't compare to animals.
>>44092945
>Well, I think it's safe to say that we're done here.
You should have been done hours ago. Pro-tip: if somebody proclaims to understand something and accuses others of being wrong, yet he fails to actually formulate his stance for over an hour, he is a troll.
>>44093003
I said "power of faith is a thing", meaning in the setting in general, not "paladins literally get their power from believing in something". Don't jump to assumptions.
>And I'm not gonna ...
Suit yourself.
>>44093055
>Don't jump to assumptions.
Jump to conclusions, I mean. Sleepy.
>>44092880
Why would you make a pact with a demon if everything is powered by faith? Just believe in yourself and your ideals.
>>44093032
That's relativism though. He's arguing against relativism.
Humans don't compare to animals because relativism is real. Morality is not immune to it.
>>44093118
Why do you assume that "everything" is powered by faith? If a million humans believing that the giant tree in the middle of their country is a sentient god protecting them from harm can make that otherwise normal, if big, tree into a sentient god, it doesn't mean that natural laylines, places of power, magi, elementals, etc cannot exist.
>>44093055
So you don't actually know any system other than D&D which has paladins?
>>44093174
Yeah, so why does the Paladi need to deal with demons? Why aren't demons all evil murdercunts if peasants believe that is what they are? Why are celestials actually evil, if everybody believes they aren't?
>>44093032
>the guy whose only argument is "muh God" is right
>to prove us right I'm going to use the words "keklord" and "tumblr"
Fucking shameful.
>>44093251
>Yeah, so why does the Paladi need to deal with demons?
A very particular sequence of events. They basically saved each other's lives.
>Why aren't demons all evil murdercunts if peasants believe that is what they are?
Because demons are also sentient, powerful, and numerous creatures and couldn't give two fucks about what some dumb peasants in another world think about them. Additionally, some of them kind of are evil murdercunts, but for entirely different reasons.
>Why are celestials actually evil, if everybody believes they aren't?
Because, again, sentient, powerful, numerous creatures with their own agenda. And they're not exactly "evil", more like they treat the "lower creatures" that are humans as flocks of dumb sheep to be guided and protected from themselves.
>>44093270
You don't deserve a better response. Gtfo already.
>>44093366
So faith doesn't actually do anything?
>>44093383
>my inability to make a coherent argument is actually your inability to accept what I say without asking question
Stahp.
>>44093461
Could make plenty of arguments, but lost interest when you compared animals and humans as equals to prove your point about morality.
>>44093508
That wasn't me, and you seem plenty interested since you keep replying, and either way this isn't a "be the bigger man and walk away situation", it's a "I don't know what the fuck I should say to defend my viewpoint so I'll resort to ad hominem to fool others and myself into thinking I do know". A little tip, yo: the only one you're fooling is yourself.
>>44093405
It can create actual gods and miracles, it can give human champions related abilities, but it mostly works in the human world and cannot affect whole species of the other race simply due to the fact that the influence in barely noticeable.
A nation can believe a certain demon or angel is their god and thus pump them with energy to equal one, but they cannot make all demons or all angels into benevolent or malicious beings - their joined effort will not be enough for that.
Plus, demons and angels have their own sources of energy and it is hard to simply exist in the human world for a long time due to reasons (one being that actual faith-created gods are passively trying to push the arrogant fuckers away from their domain and prevent them from ifluencing their people), so they can use pacts or faith to hold them on the needed plane.
>>44093547
Ok.
>>44089736
>Paladins simply had to be a Lawful Fighter with CHA 17. Have fun getting that with 3D6 in order.
>It was only in AD&D that the restriction was added.
That's because Basic D&D didn't HAVE Good and Evil as character alignments. And you'll notice the fact that the Lawful half, which Basic did have, is still in there.
>>44089898
5e has tiers already? Christ.
>>44090589
Didn't you have to be like at least a level 4 Cleric of an Evil god, or an outsider with the [Evil] descriptor, to ping evil to Detect Evil?
>>44092585
Historical Templars were based as fuck. During their service in Outremer they served as peacekeepers and the equivalent of police for the highways of pilgrims plagued by bandits. They also kept the peace between the different faiths, there are anecdotes of Muslims kicked and insulted by the conquering Franks being escorted to safety with the Franks reprimanded. Hell at their trial they were held accountable for their tolerance of heathens.
Of course once the Holy Land was lost they lost their way, having become an immensely wealthy and influential group with no point.
Such a pity the propaganda of Phillip worked to such an effect that their reputation is soiled to this day.
The military group actually deserving of the negative view towards the Templars would be the Teutonic Order, who actually hunted pagan families for sport and waged war against its Catholic neighbors once it's atrocities got out of control.
>>44089427
>So.. Basically you just roll dice and kill stuff in your games? Thats ok, I guess, but I think roleplaying games should have some.. You know, roleplaying.
Then you probably should avoid D&D and all it's tropes
>>44092881
>There's literally no way to adequately come up with a moral system without anything transcendent.
Try evolutionary biology.
Cranes, not skyhooks.
>>44089146
>>44099268
>still using fedora-meme in 2015
Get with the times, grandpa.
We use C U C K now.
>>44088665
The man walked into the tavern.
He wore pieces of ragged, dirty armor. Mud coated his boots. A bit on the short side, he had to struggle a bit to get on the barstool. Finally plopping into place, with a large sniff (sucking up some of the mucus dripping down from his nose) he shouted out.
"Barkeep! I need a fucking drink!"
The man behind the bar looked at him, unimpressed. Some guy in the back of the tavern shouted happily as he won a game or cards, to the groans of the other players.
As the barman poured the man a drink, he gave him another lookover.
"Nother failure from the order come down my road, looks like."
"That obvious, eh?" said the man, taking a stiff drink. He slammed the thick oak mug back onto the bar, gripping it with white knuckles, then letting go with a sigh.
"So," said the barman, "Feel like talking about it?"
"...Yeah. Yeah I fucking do!" the man poured the frothy brown liqued down his throat, slamming the mug down on the bar again. "Another!" the man croaked out, and as the barman filled up his mug, and the men in the back played cards, he began to talk.
"So. So fucking what. First off, there is nothing wrong with using a fucking dagger, is there? I mean, its bloody handy! Not in the fucking way all the time, and it's light, you know? Not errybody is fucking meat slab..." he took another gulp. "And so what if I like to drink, and get a bit friendly with the girls down at Madame Tracey's! Then need money too, they gotta feed themselves, and if I get a bit of pleasure out of it whats da harm?! And who has the gaddamn time to polish that heavy ass armor all day. Not me! Not this man, let me tell you..." he sighed again. The card players in the back started arguing with each other, but the barman stood patiently in front of the man.
>>44102066
" I guess... I guess I was never gonna be one of those lot anyway. Not sure why I thought I would. Sir Fram, there's a man who knows the Law, let me tell you. I couldn't remember half the shite he spouts, but he gets it right every time.
"And Sir Lydia, she uses that thin ass sword, an still trounces all of us attempters, at once! I have no idea, she just did this flick and... fuck. And dey all... dey all have that.. faith. I could never believe man. I've tried in the past but... I'm just too me, ya'know? Guess ahm selfish..."
The man gazed emptily into his drink, stopping only to glance at the crad players, who were now dragging the man who won out of the tavern.
"Some people just seem to have more then others, I get you," said the barman, filling up another mug.
"Mmm... yeah," murmured the man, distracted.
He drummed his fingers on the counter.
"Hey barman, do uh, does that uh, happen often?"
"Hmm, oh them? Only when they lose. They'll cut off some bits I expect, probably won't see that fool round here again," the barman replied casually. The man drummed his fingers again.
"That ain't right. It was just a friendly game right? I mean, none my buisness..." the man trailed off, looking conflicted. "But that ain't Right."
>>44102094
"Whats the guy gonna do? Its three on one, and they got swords. And don't get any ideas lad, they'll stomp you flat. Your not the first reject been through here... though probably the first stupid enough to consider what yur thinkin." The barman set the drink in front of the man.
The man drummed his fingers again.
There was a sound of steel being drawn from outside.
The man quickly reached into his pocket, and dumped coins on the table, twice the cost of what he drank.
"I know sir, I know... but its Right. Fuck! Thanks for the drink and conversation."
As he rushed out the door the barman called after him "Lad, you know, that's all it needs to be."
The sword swung down, but the mans dagger swung up, and there was the clang of steel on steel, but louder, that thundered through the mans very bones, and a flash.
The man was blinded for a moment, an shook his head. When he looked up, the men were gone, as was the tavern. But he had... He had this feeling. And his dagger glowed.
...He started to tromp back through the mud, from the direction he came.
>>44102123
Fake and gay.
>>44102142
Sorry you didn't like it bro. But OP got me thinking how I would play a paladin, and I felt inspired.
I mean, Mechanically I get there is no obligation for palys to be heros, and its kinda cliche... but its fun. Its REALLY fun. I love playing around with the idea, and the characters that spawn from it. So for me, I would have to say a paladin is inspiration. Which kinda seems silly, because so is a wizard, or a barbarian, or whatever, but its true. And I love them for it.
Wizards are my personal favorite though.
>>44089515
You posted the wrong image there buddy
>>44088665
Paladins are a pretend role in an rpg that sad fatguys can use to work out their daddy issues.
I personally only like Paladins if they do not have any magical powers.
Most of them are warriors because there is purity in a Warrior's code. A thief 'could' be a paladin but probably not, since sneaking is usually morally wrong in some way. A Wizard 'could' be a paladin but usually aren't, since magic is corrupting and terrible. A cleric/priest could also be a paladin, but probably not because their Gods wishes and demands will sometimes make a conflict of interest; This God will want the cleric to kill the innocents of a heretical rival religion even if it is wrong.
Paladins do not answer to Gods, they have a more pure form of morality, they do the right thing because its the right thing, not because they are promised anything or because they are getting power.
>inb4 fedora tipping
>inb4 people don't understand even basic mythological concepts about Gods being flawed that both my post and this post mentioned
>>44090803
