Could a min/maxed 1st level AD&D 2e character defeat a regular first level 5e character?
How long is a round in 5E?
>>44081219
six seconds
>>44081219
6 seconds, I think?
Let's say they're working on the same time though. All we're looking at is the numbers on the character, as if one appeared in the Monster Manual of the other game
>>44081129
now I don't know either of those editions very well 2e because I haven't really looked at it and 5e because I fucking hate it but I suppose so if he was at a decent range then without a doubt.
>>44081129
Don't remember much of 2e, but a 1st level 5e character is basically a lowlife shit.
>>44081299
Are you kidding? a first level 5e character could wipe a village if he wanted to
>>44081726
Are you retarded? A level 1 5e character is weak as fuck.
To answer OP's question, the 5e would win, purely due to having more HP and class features.
>>44081726
Yeah, but so could most housecats.
>>44081129
This one will boil down to gear a lot. Are we assuming default starting wealth worth of gear?
Also, are splats allowed?
>>44081129
>Off-topic Simpsons Rant
[Spoiler]
It off-topic but I love how perfectly the new Simpsons intro contrasts with the old one and demonstrates what's gone wrong.
Old Simpsons writing: Lets put a situation that will be poignant and/or funny
New Simpsons writing: Hey, there's not enough going on here! Throw in random (x) character cameo/wacky situation at it, that will be charming, right?
[/Spoiler]
>>44081129
Easily.
>>44081780
>>44081726
A hamlet maybe. Definitely no place large enough to also have some sort of basic law enforcement.
Min/maxed RAW or with splat?
>>44081900
Not even a hamlet. A level 1 Fighter would get beaten up by a few peasants with clubs. Its not till around level 5 you can start telling villages to eat dicks.
>>44081768
>A level 1 5e character is weak as fuck
looks like someone has never played any other edition
this is the whole point of this thread, is that 5e characters are NOT weak
>>44081929
...Why are you playing a fighter, moron?
A level 1 Wizard has unlimited cantrips and would utterly destroy the village.
>>44081929
Now imagine if PC has ranged weapon and dirteaters have not.
Anynway in 5th any PC under level 5 still gets raped by their CR worth of Hobgoblins.
>>44081929
A wizard can build around infinite ray of frost at level 1 to snipe the fuck out of a village.
>>44081959
>Level 1 wizard shoots cantrip
>Some guy shoots him with a crossbow or a few guys walk up with clubs
>He dies
>>44081957
But they are weak. 5e characters are not that powerful at level 1.
>>44081962
Thats really the only situation he could "end a village" is by having a ranged weapon when no one else does. But by that point we don't really call it a fight, so much as a good reason peasants should remember thine second amendment right to keep and bear crossbows.
>>44081962
Moon Druid doesn't.
>>44081991
Peasants can't afford crossbows by RAW, and Ray of Frost has a range far, far greater than a peasant's move speed to club him. I specified snipe for a reason.
OP here, I guess I should clarify. Look at it in terms of these parameters:
>Max Possible HP
>Max Possible Damage output
>Best possible AC/defenses
>Other abilities
>>44082003
What's the trick?
>>44081991
The fuck did they get 10 gp for the hand crossbow?
>>44082019
I'm not going to believe an entire village doesn't have any sort of ranged offense in some way. There's a shitload of people in a village, God knows someone knows the basics of fighting to defend people, let alone one wizard with a max of maybe 8 health. He'll get shot or a shitload of people will bum rush him. Even worse for a fighter.
>>44081875
Look at how many frames there are.
>>44082039
>Max
2E wins then. You get to keep rolling on the psionic powers table if you roll as best as possible, and then you accumulate PP required in order to cast all of your psionic abilities. So you would be stupidly broken from the start.
Max possible is always a bad idea.
>>44082039
Max possible HP:
-AD&D: 12 HP
-5e: 15 HP
Max possible DPR:
-AD&D: 1d10+4
-5e: 1d12+13 [more likely 1d12+3]
Best AC:
-AD&D: AC 16 equivalent
-5e: AC 19
Other Abilities:
-AD&D: Weapon Specialization [already counted in above damage], Nonweapon Proficiencies.
-5e: Various class features.
>>44082073
But Anon, peasants are not people.
>>44082062
Entangle, Faerie Fire, Goodberry, Healing Word.
>>44082073
Even a Druid using his infinite create flame could just start a shitload of fires in the village and then hide and use Entangle or something on any fire-fighters attempting to deal with it.
There's tons of ways to destroy a village at level 1.
>>44081129
Well, let's say the 2e character is a minmaxed dart fighter. How much HP does a 5e Lvl 1 have? Cause he's taking 2d4 a round from the top of the initiative.
>>44082102
Why is it only 12? You can have 14 for sure. Possibly more iirc.
Relatively or absolutely?
Best way is to compare it against the same monster in but each from its system
>>44081129
Super-maxed everything (including rolls/stats), AD&D 2E would shit all over the 5E character.
Super-minimized everything (rolls/stats), 5E will shit all over the 2E character.
Average/common level 1 character from each respective system? Probably 5E with an infinite at-will ability, slightly higher average HP/AC.
>>44082182
10 base on Fighter, maybe 12 on Barbarian, but I'm not sure could be 10 as well.
+4 for Con 18
>>44082102
>AD&D: 1d10+4
Son, get out your players handbook again and look at darts. You get to throw 3 a round. Far more damage, and you can play keep away.
>>44082176
Darts do normal damage. A raging barb takes half normal damage.
>>44082224
>10 + 4 = 12
???
>>44082227
Also, the odds are good no one's dying in the first round, so even if we go pure melee, the 2e character with specialization is getting two attacks in round 2
How to kill a village?
Winged tiefling variant wizard, use the sun to blind possible archers
>>44082233
Alright, and I was wrong. Darts are 3 per round.
So first round. 2e goes first by weapon speed, 5e takes 3d4 plus whatever strength bonus 2e has. So 3(1d4+3) probably. Now 5e gets to rage, if he's still alive.
>>44082344
That's a minimum of 12 damage, assuming all attacks hit. That's pushing it in terms of HP for non-minmaxed characters in 5e.
I suppose a barbarian would be able to survive, but not much else.
The 2E fighter would have a bunch of retainers and could hit him upside the head pretty good too. If you toss in rules from Combat and Tactics, boy, it'd be unfair.
The 5E fighter would be... uh a bit tankier and could surge?
WotC really did gut fighters' endgame.
>>44081129
Jesus Christ I never actually realized how bad Zombie Simpsons looked in action compared to the original.
>>44082019
>Peasants can't afford crossbows by RAW
It's 5e. NPCs don't have WBL anymore. We can give the peasants shortbows and crossbows if we want to.
Even if we assume the peasants are dirt poor and have not a single shortbow among them, they could still hit the wizard with a sling (or even throw rocks for 60ft max range and the same damage). Might be at disadvantage if the wizard is super good at kiting, but it'll only take about 2 to 4 good hits (1d4 against 7-8 hp) to take the wizard down. Due to disadvantage, the total number of attacks might be around 15 if the wizard has decent dexterity, or more if he casted mage armor.
Point is, if you've got a good number of untrained, totally unskilled shlubs throwing bits of stone at a level 1 wizard, he won't last very long. If any of them are even slightly suited to the task (say, having strength or dexterity higher than 11, or using a real weapon), that makes the wizard die even faster.
>>44084156
Forgot the peasants' proficiency bonus. Still only takes 2-4 hits, but total number of attacks to KO a wizard should be about 10 without mage armor, and 20 with. Get the village's able-bodied men out there and hucking sling bullets, and the wizard will go down pretty quickly.
>>44084268
But Frost is 100 feet vs Slings 60 feet. And it slows.
>>44084305
>Frost is 100 feet vs Slings 60 feet. And it slows.
Ray of Frost is 60 feet in 5e, and slings are 30/120 (normal attack within 30ft disadvantage at 35-120 feet).
Chill Touch (120 feet) would let him kite against thrown rocks, but not slings. Peasants can ready their actions to attack when the wizard gets within range.
>>44084305
>>44084478
And Ray of Frost is only hitting a single target. Consider as well that any human can take a Dash action to move 60' right up into melee with the Wizard.
>>44081255
>I haven't looked at it
>I fucking hate it
Your average /tg/ pleb ladies and gentlemen
>>44084923
>average
At least he's admitting to his ignorance.
>>44081129
initiative.
2nd ed 1d10
5ed 1d20
well fuck.
speculation and number crunching now.
but if 5ed caster uses shield, has MORE spells againts the fighter dart specialist with 18/00
mmmm....
still betting wiz
>>44081980
infinite use cantrips were a mistake.
>>44085274
Not really. They're generally worse than just using a Crossbow in terms of damage. All it really does is let Wizards feel more like Wizards.
>>44085274
Seconded. Magic should be powerful and limited. Being able to toss bolts of fire at will devalues the 'oomph' of spells like Burning Hands and Fireball.
>>44085301
Maybe that Wizard should learn to use a crossbow, because relying solely on magic is for nerds and fools.
>>44085274
Having limited Cantrip slots means the Wizard has to choose between doing fun things like using Prestidigitation to flavor the party's meal at the inn, and doing practical things like casting Light so they can see in the dungeon or dealing damage without fumbling with a crossbow.
Imagine if a Rogue had a shared pool for how many times he could pick pockets, open locks, and backstab people.
>>44081129
>early
>fluid, emotional animation
>simple art that while somewhat crude, focuses on the characters and characterization
>late
>tight jerky movements, fewer frames, less evocation of the characters
>art is much cleaner
>random pointless baby cameo takes up the scene, while marge has apparently become a robot
I cry.
>>44081129
yes because the 5e character would eat their own delicious weapon when faced with the explanation of THAC0.
>>44085348
Unlimited cantrips are an example of good game design in the middle of shit game design.
It allows the character to be flavorful, fun, and interesting, with a variety of effects that, while useful, have very limited mechanical range - Without cantrips, the Wizard prepares Detect Magic three times and Light once. With it, things like Sneeze, Prestidigitation, and Daze become relevant spells.
It's an example of gold in the pile of a bunch of shit because as fun and interesting as the cantrips are, once you get past cantrips you see the wealth of useless-but-interesting spells, does-as-intended, and gamebreaking spells all shoved into the same slots. Why would the Rogue ever bother to use the broken stealing mechanisms when they could be planting bombs in people's pockets Fallout style, if those ability uses were limited?
Cantrips reflect a good, powerful base for a class to work with. Unfortunately, Pathfinder is pretty shit all over the place, so a few good mechanics here and there manage to shit over the other half of the system that thinks grabbing children requires huge class investiture as well.
>>44085473
>explanation of THAC0.
Dude, THAC0 is not hard. It is literally the number needed to roll to hit AC 0. AC20/AC 0 are the same thing.
>>44085561
Pathfinder? Oh right, I suppose they did do that as well. I was mostly talking about 5e.
It is one of the few things Pathfinder actually fixed. The others were condensing the skill list (they messed it up in other ways though), and simplifying how Combat Maneuvers were calculated.
It's a very short list of what Pathfinder does well. I will say that the Alchemist class is rather interesting and has some cool abilities.
>>44085561
You know what's better than unlimited cantrips? Reserve Feats, from Complete Mage / Champion in 3E. A quick recap - Reserve Feats let a spellcaster make an at-will magical attack as long as they could cast a spell of a certain damage type. The damage increased based on the spell slot saved up. So, a character who prepared Fireball and had the Fiery Burst feat (or whatever it was called) could throw a ball of flame that would deal 3d6 damage in a small burst (1d6 per spell level).
Why were these awesome? Because they gave casters an at-will magic attack WITHOUT making it strictly unlimited. If you wanted that flame attack you COULD NOT CAST that Fireball spell. Once you tossed your strongest fire spell the at-will attack would get weaker, or even vanish if you had no other Fire spells prepared.
It's awesome and flavourful. An Evoker is basically siphoning off some of the power of a prepared spell slot to toss lesser versions of it at their foes.
In my opinion, THIS is what the Evoker should get in 5E, and ONLY the Evoker.
>>44085578
I understand this and you understand this, but when you try to run older editions for players this is somehow the hardest thing ever.
>>44085676
>reserve feats
It was a way to hack through the shitty vancian mechanics and get fun, scaling, at-will powers that are similar in nature to 5e cantrips. Though I do wish 5e had a good AoE cantrip.
You might find that some of the best parts of 3rd were basically ways to bypass existing cumbersome mechanics and introduce ones that were actually fun or easy to use. Some examples were psionics (spell points instead of slots, no spell-preparation phase, elegant power scaling, ignored spell components that nobody cared about), tome of battle (martials get different options and nice things instead of just autoattacking), and reserve feats (minor at-will powers that are fun). And in 5e core, many of these fixes found implementation in one form or another.
tl;dr: The best parts of 3E were essentially the designers realizing that the system was shit, and then finding workarounds to patch it as best they could, basically trying to make 5e/4e mechanics before those systems came out.
>>44082344
>2e goes first by weapon speed
Why are we fighting on 2e's home turf?
>>44085891
Here's a way to make 5E cantrips more like Reserve Feats. Instead of the damage increasing automatically as you get to higher levels, require the caster to have a free spell slot of a certain level or higher.
Example:
Fire Bolt: This spell's damage is increased by 1d10 if you have a level 3 or higher spell slot remaining, 2d10 if you have a level 6 or higher spell slot remaining, or 3d10 if you have a level 9 or higher spell slot remaining.
Bam, there you go. Now there's an opportunity cost for being a fire-and-forget mage who throws his strongest spells at the start of the day.
>>44081129
I think it's more likely that they'd keep missing each other since their armor and hit calculations are so completely different from each other, and thus fighting would be impossible.
A great AC score for beginning 2e char would be -2 (assuming high Dex, good armor, and a shield), while a great AC score for a 5e one would be 18. How the fuck do you get them to fight when negative numbers are better for one while positive double-digits are better then the other?
Also, it depends on what classes the two combatants are.
>>44086033
You do realize it's very easy to convert THAC0 values into standard attack bonuses and defenses right?
For AC, you just have to subtract it from 20, meaning a high starting AC for 2e would be 22.
Conversely, a 2e character also won't have much of an attack bonus.
>>44081219
Radically different spell casting speeds aside, this is sort-of a moot point from a conceptual stance.
*Literally* everything attached to a number in AD&D is a varying heavily abstracted stand-in.
>>44085341
coming from a sorcerer you have no idea what youre talking about
comparing a fire ball to a fire bolt
shameless
>>44081129
Yes.
>>44081991
>Lvl 1 Wizard
>1 hp
>1 spell
>Can't wear armour or is fucked
vs
>Level 1 Wizard
>Infinite number of cantrips + loads of level 1 spells
>At least 5 hp
>No armour casting penalty if proficient
Pick your poison.
>>44085987
Because it makes sense. A man attacking with a dagger is always going to be faster than that same man attacking with a broadsword.
>>44087895
>Lvl 1 Dex fighter in either system.
>>44088145
And like a lot of things that superficially make sense, its not actually accurate.
>>44081129
Sure. Just be a AD&D 1st level Bard.
>>44088145
>>44088165
>5e fighter reaction when a 2e fighter pulls a dagger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anjrgxb4K0k
>>44085676
If you were using 2e rules for the sleep spell. A 2e mage would win everytime he won init. There was no Saving throw against it.
